Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 5 April 2022
1. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach the number of commissions of investigation under the remit of his Department that are currently ongoing; the cost of each commission to date; and the projected costs of each in tabular form. [14279/22]
Amharc ar fhreagra2. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach the number of commissions of investigation under the remit of his Department currently ongoing; the cost of each commission to date; and the projected costs of each in tabular form. [14282/22]
Amharc ar fhreagra3. Deputy Catherine Murphy asked the Taoiseach the number of commissions of investigation under the remit of his Department currently ongoing in the State; the cost of each commission to date; and the projected costs of each in tabular form. [17580/22]
Amharc ar fhreagra4. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach the number of commissions of investigation under the remit of his Department currently ongoing in the State; the cost of each commission to date; and the projected costs of each in tabular form. [17876/22]
Amharc ar fhreagraI propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.
The only commissions of investigation for which I am the specified Minister under the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 are the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Commission of Investigation and the National Asset Management Agency Commission of Investigation, both of which are fully independent.
The IBRC Commission of Investigation was established in June 2015 following consultation with Oireachtas parties. It is investigating certain transactions, activities and management decisions at the IBRC and in its first module, it is investigating the Siteserv transaction. Its original deadline was 31 December 2015 but following multiple requests from the commission, and after consultation with Oireachtas parties, its timeframe for reporting has been extended. Most recently, I granted a further extension, this time until the end of August 2022, following a further request from the commission in its 11th interim report dated 11 March 2022.
From the time of its establishment to the end of February 2022, the commission has cost approximately €11.15 million, excluding third party legal costs that have been incurred but not yet paid which will be a matter for the commission to determine at the end of its investigation. In its seventh interim report in February 2020, the commission estimated that the final cost of the Siteserv investigation will be between €12 million and €14.5 million. This estimate assumed the investigation would be completed by the end of 2020, not the end of August 2022 as is now the case, and excluded costs or delays associated with possible judicial review hearings. The commission also acknowledged that it involved a substantial degree of uncertainty regarding the amount of costs actually recoverable by the parties before it and assumed its legal costs guidelines are not successfully challenged. The commission's most recent interim report does not provide any update on the €12 million to €14.5 million estimate but my Department has given its view on many occasions that the final cost is likely to significantly exceed the commission's estimate and could exceed €30 million. That is what my officials advise and the further extension of its timeline, as well as the commission's acknowledgement of the possibility of court challenges, further supports that view.
The NAMA commission was established in June 2017 following consultations with Oireachtas parties to investigate the sale by NAMA of its Northern Ireland portfolio, known as Project Eagle. Its original deadline for reporting was 31 June 2018 but following several requests from the commission and consultation with Oireachtas parties, its timeframe for reporting has also been extended. Most recently, earlier this month, I granted a further request for an extension, this time until the end of June 2022.
From the time of its establishment to the end of February 2022, the commission has cost approximately €4 million, excluding any third party legal costs incurred but not yet paid which will be considered by the commission at the end of its investigation. The estimated cost for the commission when it was established was approximately €10 million, excluding the cost of any litigation that may arise. The commission has not provided an updated estimate for the cost of its investigation but the expenditure incurred to date suggests it is unlikely to exceed the original estimate.
When one thinks about all of the tribunals and commissions of investigation we have had, how long they went on for and how much they cost, they are quite telling about the history of this country. A commission of investigation into NAMA related to the housing crisis and what developers did to this country; a commission of investigation into the IBRC, a dodgy bank that lent money to developers who helped to wreck the economy; planning tribunals to do with dodgy planning decisions; and investigations into mother and baby homes and the scandal of the mistreatment of women and children for decades. I could go on.
There is one lesson that we should take from all of these. I do not know exactly what the model for investigating past scandals is but one thing we could learn is that it would be best for these scandals not to happen in the first place. I want to warn the Taoiseach today about a scandal that we are going to be investigating very soon, namely, the scandal of children who are homeless being put through the trauma of being made homeless and living in emergency accommodation or direct provision for years. Indeed, we may well be investigating the state of some of the accommodation that Ukrainian refugees are being put into now, judging from early reports. There is a serious problem with putting vulnerable people, particularly children, into totally inadequate housing, into emergency accommodation, direct provision centres, hostels and elsewhere. I promise the Taoiseach that we will be investigating the damage and the trauma caused in years to come. As I did earlier today, I ask the Government to prevent having to set up a commission of investigation in a few years and to take emergency measures in this area now. Families and children, wherever they may be from, should not be in these absolutely dire and inappropriate situations.
It is quite rare to see prosecutions around corrupt practices arising from lengthy tribunals of inquiry or commissions of investigation, even where there are negative findings. The Moriarty tribunal is a case in point. It has gone back and forth between the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and the Garda Síochána since it reported in 2011.
There are alternatives to tribunals of inquiry. We need to get to that point where we have a satisfactory means of dealing with issues that require inquiry. Commissions of investigation are supposed to be a more cost efficient way of dealing with issues than tribunals of inquiry but that is not always the case. In December, we got a new suite of measures arising out of the Hamilton review group. It made 22 recommendations, some of which are due in quarter 3 of this year, but are the milestones in that regard being met?
The Social Democrats put forward a proposal for an anti-corruption agency with requisite powers as a means of dealing with issues in real time. It is not always the case that prosecutions would follow, but where there is the possibility of prosecutions, we need such an agency rather than a litany of tribunals and commissions of investigation that do not have the prospect of resulting in sanctions. For example, there has been backwards and forwards between the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, and An Garda Síochána with regard to the provision of garda. The new Corporate Enforcement Authority is supposed to have a relationship with An Garda Síochána on the issue of a guaranteed Garda strength. When I raised the issue with the Garda Commissioner at last week's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts he told me the memorandum of understanding has not been signed yet. That is unsatisfactory. Very high profile cases are stalled because of that.
It is salutary to look at the length of time for which these commissions have been under way and the projected costs. I am conscious that they have not yet concluded. The Siteserv inquiry will be over seven years in existence when it reaches its latest deadline at the end of August. The Taoiseach outlined that there has been another five month extension and that the cost according to his Department's estimate is likely to be about €30 million, which is more than double what the commission originally estimated the final cost would be. Could the Taoiseach indicate if it is envisaged that the work of the Siteserv inquiry is likely to be extended again beyond this August and confirm whether that will then increase the level of projected cost?
On the NAMA commission of investigation, which has now been in existence for five years, is it expected that it will report by the end of June 2022 and, again, will the cost exceed the projected €10 million? When commissions of investigation were introduced in 2004, the intention was that they would replace in a much more cost effective and time limited way the pre-existing tribunals of inquiry. They have mushroomed and morphed into effectively the same entities as the tribunals of inquiry. Does the Government have any immediate plans to ensure this will not happen in any future commissions of investigation such that we can see them return to the more trimmed down and nimble entitles they were supposed to be?
The scoping exercise into the death of Shane O'Farrell was established by the previous Government more than three years ago. By their nature, scoping exercises are expected to take weeks, possibly months but not years, and yet three years on from the initiation of that exercise we have no idea as to when that work will be finished. Members will recall that nobody bar the previous Cabinet wanted this scoping exercise. Both Houses of the Oireachtas unanimously passed motions calling for the establishment of an inquiry. In 2018, the Taoiseach, when on this side of the House, stated: "In all honesty and sincerity, it is time the Oireachtas responded in the only way possible to Shane's death, which is the establishment of an inquiry." The Taoiseach was right then and his case is even more valid now.
The failures of the policing and justice system that led up to Shane's death and the actions thereafter and to this day are significant not only to his family, but are in the wider public interest. We acknowledge the independence of Judge Haughton who is carrying out the scoping exercise and we know that Government cannot interfere, but will the Taoiseach accept that the scoping exercise as a process has not worked and that it has become yet another protracted delay to advancing the inquiry that we have all agreed is necessary?
The Taoiseach took a very firm stance on this matter when in opposition, and rightly so. I ask that he follow it through.
I thank the Deputies for the issues raised. With respect to Deputy Boyd Barrett, we need a better model of inquiry. More important, existing agencies should be the principal mechanism for holding Government agencies and bodies and, generally, society to account and contemporaneously. One of the difficulties in looking back is that we use the prism of today to judge actions 30 or 40 years ago.
In respect of the financial issues, I agree very serious issues were raised, particularly in terms of the IBRC. It is seven years since that inquiry commenced. In regard to Deputy Bacik's point, the draft report has been completed. In July 2021, the commission issued a draft of its report, which runs to 1,280 pages, to all relevant parties and gave them until 22 October to provide submissions on it. Since then, the commission has received detailed submissions on the draft report, running to more than 1,600 pages, from 12 different parties. These submissions raise a number of complex matters which the commission is currently in the process of carefully considering along with some additional evidence, which it is also considering. The commission stated that once it has completed this review process, it will prepare a revised draft report for circulation to all relevant parties on or about 30 April 2022. It proposes to provide relevant parties with an eight week period, which will expire on 13 June 2022, to review the draft report and make observations. It will then take it from there.
In terms of the emergency accommodation issue and direct provision, Deputy Boyd Barrett mentioned Ukraine as well, which I think is a bit unfair.
I heard a report today-----
Of course, but-----
-----from a journalist-----
Deputy, please let the Taoiseach respond. We have less than a minute and a half remaining.
Approximately 18,000 Ukrainians have come into this country in the space of six weeks. In parallel with that, in terms of normal migration outside of Ukraine, more migrants and asylum seekers have arrived here in the first two to three months of this year than arrived here in the entirety of last year. Within Europe, we have internal migration into Ireland, which we have to deal with and respond to in terms of emergency accommodation. It is not all simple and the Deputy should not pretend that it is.
I am not saying it is simple.
The Deputy is saying that because he is already building up the case for an inquiry against people who are working flat out within our system to do everything they possibly can to accommodate people with respect and with dignity. We are doing that.
In terms of ending direct provision, the Government has a policy in that respect. There are hundreds of families in direct provision who could leave it, but the housing situation does not facilitate them doing so. We are building. There were 31,000 commencements last year, up to 33,000 in the 12 months up to February this year, which is the highest since 2008. However, that will not be enough. The inflationary pressures on construction are very significant, which is being seen in all of the tenders that are coming in. There is a lot of strain out there because of the impact of the war and the huge inflationary cycle that has occurred because of energy and input costs. We cannot go on blindly making commentary as if we are somehow oblivious to those realities.
Thank you, Taoiseach. The time is up. We must move on to Question No. 5.
If I could just-----
No, I am sorry we have to move on to Question No. 5. We are way over time.
Can I get a brief response?
No, I am sorry.
I just want to very quickly-----
No, I am sorry. It is not the Taoiseach's fault. People will have to be a little more succinct in the questions they are asking otherwise we will not get any answers.
Deputies can talk as much as they like but if they want answers, they must curtail their contributions.
