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Taoiseach's Communications

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 5 April 2022

Tuesday, 5 April 2022

Ceisteanna (21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

21. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent conversation with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [13969/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Seán Haughey

Ceist:

22. Deputy Seán Haughey asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [14204/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Brendan Smith

Ceist:

23. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [14207/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mick Barry

Ceist:

24. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent conversation with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [15477/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Ivana Bacik

Ceist:

25. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent conversation with the President of Ukraine. [16207/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Gary Gannon

Ceist:

26. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent conversation with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [17678/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

27. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [17985/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul Murphy

Ceist:

28. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [17988/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Ruairí Ó Murchú

Ceist:

29. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent conversation with the Prime Minister of Ukraine. [18039/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (39 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 21 to 29, inclusive, together.

We have condemned the war since the start as immoral and unjustifiable, and rightly so, but the evidence emerging at the weekend of horrific crimes against civilians in regions north of Kyiv is especially and profoundly shocking. Such unspeakable deeds cannot go unanswered and those responsible must be held to account.

I spoke to the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, by phone on 16 March during my visit to the United States. I found him to be calm, focused and determined. He expressed his gratitude to the Government and people of Ireland for their support for Ukraine, including in welcoming those fleeing the war; for our support for Ukraine's application for EU membership; and for our support for the most robust and severe sanctions against Russia. He also expressed his condolences on the death of Pierre Zakrzewski, the Irish photojournalist killed in Ukraine alongside his colleague, Ukrainian journalist Oleksandra Kuvshynova, on 14 March.

President Zelenskyy briefed me on the very difficult situation on the ground in Ukraine, which has included indiscriminate attacks on civilians. He also made the case for a no-fly zone over Ukraine. I assured him of Ireland's ongoing solidarity with his Government and people in the face of the brutal and illegal war they are suffering.

President Zelenskyy also engaged remotely with the meeting of the European Council that I attended in Brussels on 24 March. He set out the desperate circumstances facing civilians in Ukraine and called for the EU to exercise the maximum pressure on Russia to end its appalling war.

I welcome that President Zelenskyy has accepted the Ceann Comhairle's invitation to address the joint Houses of the Oireachtas this week.

I also spoke with the Prime Minister of Ukraine, Denys Shmyhal, on 1 March, when he briefed me on the deteriorating humanitarian and security situation on the ground at that time. I conveyed the Government's and the Irish public's strong solidarity with Ukraine and its people, and outlined the steps we are taking as a country and as an EU member state to support Ukraine.

I would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation for the work of the ambassador of Ukraine to Ireland, H.E. Larysa Gerasko, and her team, in the face of very difficult circumstances. I know that all of us in this House appreciate her ongoing efforts on behalf of the Ukrainian Government and people.

We have seen absolutely horrific pictures from Bucha which, I hope, will leave nobody in any doubt that the illegal Russian invasion and bombardment has crossed the line into war crime. I note Lithuania has expelled the Russian ambassador in response to events in Bucha. I again make the case that we should follow suit and rather than inviting the Russian ambassador to the Dáil, we should be instructing him to pack his bags and leave. We are a neutral country. We should be proud of our military neutrality. Our response to these types of actions needs to be diplomatic and robust. Expelling the Russian ambassador is one strong measure we could take.

The Taoiseach, in his response to questions about the European Council meetings, did not reference the issues of food security and agriculture supports, unless I missed it. A number of questions about the pig sector were put to the Taoiseach earlier. Some 5% of pig farmers have now left the sector. They are in desperate need of further supports. They acknowledge the supports that are in place but farmers from across all sectors have for several months been suffering as a result of increased input costs and, in many cases, depressed prices. Will the Taoiseach inform us as to whether or not he will be utilising and leveraging the European crisis reserve and co-financing to the maximum permitted level of 200%? Will he ensure that some of the Brexit adjustment reserve package of €1 billion that was secured by Ireland, primarily as a result of the stories of Irish farmers, will go to Irish farmers? Those farmers have not yet received a penny while €100 million has been ring-fenced for the meat factories. These are important times that require important interventions.

The atrocities being committed by Russian forces are becoming more visible as each day of the war passes. What has been revealed in Bucha and around Kyiv, following the retreat of Russian troops, is totally shocking. It is clear that innocent civilians were targeted. Their bodies strewn across the streets are there for all to see. Rape, sexual violence, torture and summary executions are commonplace.

President Zelenskyy has described the situation as genocide. These are war crimes. Human Rights Watch has said as much. All necessary investigations must be carried out to bring this case before the International Criminal Court. In light of the most recent revelations of Russian atrocities, a fifth package of sanctions from the EU has just been announced. I understand there will be a complete ban on the import of coal from Russia but that additional sanctions are still under consideration, according to the President of the European Commission, with particular reference to Russian oil. Is the Taoiseach satisfied with the fifth round of sanctions just announced? Does he think we can go further? What other sanctions would Ireland contemplate in the context of the EU in the coming days and weeks?

Sadly, we continue to see the horrors inflicted on the people of Ukraine by a brutal Russian invasion. War crimes are being committed daily. The united European Union response, in its strongest possible format, needs to be continued, with additional measures as well. This military aggression has to be anathema to every right-thinking person. I welcome the withdrawal of more Irish companies from Russia. Those decisions should be commended and strongly encouraged in respect of any Irish businesses that remain in Russia. We all know that at the present time, the priority must be providing for the safety of the Ukrainian people and getting humanitarian aid to those most in need. I am glad to hear from the Taoiseach that there was a discussion at the European Council about deepening partnerships with the neighbours of the European Union to the east. I welcome the fact that there is a greater political awareness and acceptance of the need for the European Union to enlarge and have better relationships with those countries to its east. For far too long we have had too many apologists for Russian-style politics in this country. We must not lose sight of the longer-term project of having Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia as EU members. Even though at the present time the priority must be the terrible conflict and getting humanitarian aid to people, the project of bringing those countries in as full EU members has to be progressed as much as possible within the present constraints.

Why did the European Council not come out strongly in favour of the cancellation of the Ukrainian national debt? Its external debt stood at $129 billion just before the invasion. God knows what it will be when the war ends and the country has to be reconstructed. Repayments of $14 billion are due in 2022 alone. What does repayment of such a debt actually mean? Last year, when the IMF loaned $5 billion to Ukraine, it said it would be repaid "mainly through a reduction in the real value of wages and social benefits". There you have it. That is it in a nutshell. Debt repayment means the impoverishment by bankers and governments of a people who have already lost so much at the hands of Putin and his murderous crew. Why did the Council not come out in favour of debt cancellation? Will the Taoiseach come out with a clear call for cancellation here today, in this Dáil?

Since the beginning of Vladimir Putin's brutal invasion of Ukraine this calendar year, European Union member states have expelled over 310 Russian diplomats from their embassies across the Union. That includes Lithuania, which very bravely and foresightedly expelled the Russian ambassador just this weekend. So far, the Irish Government has expelled four diplomats. While that is welcome, it is quite paltry considering the level and number of expulsions happening across the EU. My question is quite simple. Has the European Council discussed the co-ordination of diplomatic expulsions? This point was put to me by the Tánaiste when I first raised this issue a number of weeks ago. At the next opportunity, will the Taoiseach and his Ministers take the opportunity to finally expel the Russian ambassador and all the diplomats and, indeed, spies, who are resident in the embassy on Orwell Road?

It is totally beyond doubt that Putin's forces have been committing war crimes. We have seen the latest horrific scenes in Bucha but the targeting of civilians by Russia in a number of Ukrainian cities is very obvious and it should be prosecuted for those war crimes. Does the Taoiseach have any trust in the ability of the international community to pursue war crimes? The United Nations dropped the investigation of war crimes committed by Saudi Arabia after an intense lobbying campaign by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Interestingly, that campaign was supported not only by the Americans who are arming Saudi Arabia but also by Russia. The United States and Russia found common cause in shutting down an investigation into war crimes in Yemen. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have been appealing for the war crimes investigation in Yemen to be resumed but there has been no support from the western powers, Russia or Saudi Arabia. Similarly, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International allege that war crimes have been committed by Israel because of its use of white phosphorous in Gaza, imposing a collective punishment on Gaza through an illegal siege and the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the occupied territories. Does the Taoiseach think there is any likelihood of these war crimes actually being pursued? We should have consistency and not double standards in the prosecution of war crimes.

Will the Taoiseach respond to the calls from Ukrainian trade unions and socialist organisations to cancel Ukraine's debt? This is odious debt. It is a result of the total oligarchisation of Ukrainian society, the refusal to go after the wealthy and horrendous conditions imposed by the IMF. The IMF repayments this year alone are the equivalent of 16.5 million average pension payments in Ukraine. That is 12% of the total state expenditure. The debt needs to be cancelled. That is a concrete measure that can be taken now.

Second, did the Taoiseach raise with President Zelenskyy the recent decision to suspend 11 political parties, which between them got almost 20% of the vote at the most recent election? These are not parties we would agree with. They include the main opposition party, the right-wing Platform for Life, which won 44 seats in the Ukrainian Parliament. However, it is a worrying restriction on democratic rights and it will undermine the struggle against the Russian invasion if the Ukrainian Government is telling people the parties they voted for are beyond the pale.

On a related matter, but moving slightly sideways, has the European Union discussed the importation of liquefied natural gas, LNG, from the USA as a reaction to the Ukrainian crisis and in order to move away from the consumption of Russian gas and oil? Poor old António Guterres is getting quoted a lot in this House today. He warned European countries against this consumption of fossil fuels when he said, "Countries could become so consumed by the immediate fossil fuel supply gap that they neglect or knee-cap policies to cut fossil fuel use." He said we are putting the global economy and energy security at the mercy of geopolitical shocks and crises, and that "this is madness: addiction to fossil fuels is mutually assured destruction." When we built the anti-war movement in the early 2000s, we had a slogan: "No blood for oil". I hope we are not now seeing blood for gas. This geopolitical struggle and the attempt to flood US gas into Europe is something we will regret in the long run. As the Centre for International Law has said, there is no silver bullet for solving the climate crisis but there is a smoking gun, and that is fossil fuels. We have to focus. Did the European Union discussion focus on cutting our fossil fuel use, rather than shifting it?

The Taoiseach discussed the wider implications for Europe following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, including the areas of defence and energy and the significant impact of high energy prices being felt across the European Union. While I welcome the Government's measures to tackle the energy costs to date, the Taoiseach also said that if Ireland was to reduce its VAT rate, we would lose the EU derogation governing VAT and excise duty. However, he said the Government would seek flexibility around this.

Does the Taoiseach have an update on whether this has been agreed and when does he expect a decision to be made on any downward adjustment on the VAT rate for fuel?

I thank the Taoiseach for the updates on the Council of Europe and the conversation with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. We all look forward to President Zelenskyy's address to these Houses tomorrow. I also want to pay tribute to Larysa Gerasko, the Ukrainian ambassador, who has been to the fore in highlighting how we can do more to support the people of Ukraine. We have seen huge welcome and support for Ukrainian refugees coming here and notable efforts by volunteers and State employees to ensure refugees feel supported here. We have to escalate our response and our condemnation of Russia, particularly as we see evidence growing of atrocities being committed against civilians in Bucha and with the siege of Mariupol. Can we now move to expel the Russian ambassador? I am conscious that many others have asked for this and we have seen Lithuania move independently to do this. Although it was welcome to see our Government expelling four senior diplomats from the embassy last week there are still 27 diplomats on Orwell Road in Dublin in the Russian Embassy. We see Ciara Phelan reporting in today's Irish Mirror that many Irish people here are choosing to give those diplomats the cold shoulder but it is time for the Government to show its utter condemnation of these appalling atrocities being committed by Russia by expelling our ambassador. We should go further than that by also placing an embargo on Russian oil and gas.

We are all affected and appalled by the images we are seeing in Ukraine. On the sanctions that are already in place, almost half of the 33 Irish special purpose vehicles, SPVs, used by Russian banks and companies are subject to the current sanctions and about €35 billion is involved, a lot of which washes through. The professional firms that manage the SPVs are obliged to freeze the sanctioned assets but the Central Bank does not regulate them. What initiatives are being put in place to identify the true owners in order that the sanctions that have been put in place are applying and in order that people cannot circumvent them? We called for the Russian ambassador to be expelled and he is not immune to the images we are all seeing. Yet he is putting out statements denying what is patently obvious from independent sources. How can someone like that be relied on to be an intermediary or diplomat when he is denying what is happening? That is an affront to us and he needs to be expelled.

Deputy Carthy began the round of questions and referred to the pig industry. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, has been working intensively with the industry and we are conscious of the difficulties and challenges it has been going through on a number of fronts. It is normally a viable industry and we will do everything we can to support it. We will work with European Commission leeway and flexibilities to do so and we will see what can be done to underpin that with the application of the Brexit fund. I understand the Deputy's comments on diplomacy and I welcome what is essentially a handbrake turn on his party's behalf in respect of the expulsion of Russian diplomats because I recall that not so long ago, the Deputy described the expulsion of a diplomat in a serious situation as undermining our military neutrality. Nonetheless, I welcome the Deputy's support of our initiative last week to remove four senior officials from the embassy.

That was at the behest of MI5. The difference with this is the call is from the Dáil.

Deputy Haughey raised the importance of making sure that evidence is gathered and that we bring the evidence of the appalling war crimes to the International Criminal Court, which I wholeheartedly support. Everybody condemns the appalling and indiscriminate murder of civilians in Bucha and in other towns in the environs of Kyiv. One is also conscious that in Mariupol and other cities, more horrendous situations may emerge, which unquestionably represent the worst of humanity.

On sanctions, we support banning oil and coal imports from Russia and along with other EU member states we have been pushing for that although it has to be agreed by all 27 EU member states. I will assess the situation when I leave the Chamber but we want the strongest possible sanctions. We are mindful that we are not as dependent on Russian gas as other countries. Sometimes it can be easier for countries that will not be as impacted as others to start calling for measures. The overriding principle has to be that these measures punish the Russian Federation more than member states. So far, the sanctions have been unprecedented and severe and we will have to continue to do everything we can to keep the pressure on to stop this war. We must raise the prospect of international criminal trials to bring war criminals to justice as part of that.

Deputy Brendan Smith's points followed on from that and I strongly support his points about the EU perspective of many states in the neighbourhood of Russia.

We should be accelerating their applications to join the European Union, particularly Ukraine but also the western Balkan countries, where quite a number of states are well advanced. The European Union has been somewhat too slow in accepting their applications and some member states have held back in agreeing to allowing those countries to join. From a geopolitical perspective, the strongest protection that many countries in the neighbourhood of Russia and the EU have is membership of the European Union. When the Cold War edifice and the Soviet empire collapsed, the people of countries like Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia, for the first time ever, had a chance to get into a democratic framework and be part of a wider family of European Union nations. They grasped that opportunity with open arms and that is why many of them joined NATO as well. They did so because of their acute sense of insecurity, which we do not have to the same extent when it comes to Russia. We have no sense of the experience that Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles and Hungarians had at the hands-----

I am dealing with the questions one by one. It is not all about the Deputy. There are other Deputies in the House and I am answering their questions. I wanted to make that point.

Deputy Barry raised the cancellation of debt. Again, the European Union has been and will continue to be the biggest donor to Ukraine. I have no doubt that in the aftermath of this war, it will be Europe and other like-minded states that will have to come to the rescue. Already we decided at the Council of Europe meeting to set up a Ukraine fund for current funding and capital reconstruction of Ukraine in the aftermath of the war. That is the esprit de corps of the Council of Europe and the European Union. I note the intention of the Deputy's questions is to create another negative assertion on the motivations of the European Union. It is quite frustrating to watch the trend and patterns of how the debate goes and how people endeavour to swing it.

Is the Taoiseach going to support the cancellation of debt?

This is the classic stuff that you guys go on with, the whole time.

Just answer the question.

You never acknowledge that, for example, Germany is the biggest donor to Ukraine on a humanitarian level. I have no doubt that the international response will be one of absolute support for Ukraine and there will be various mechanisms to facilitate that. I have no intention of reducing that to a mere slogan.

Deputy Richmond raised the issue of the expulsion of diplomats. Expelling four diplomats was not paltry at all; it was quite substantive and significant from a Russian Federation perspective and relative to the size of other missions in other countries. A number of Deputies have raised the prospect of expelling the Russian ambassador. There were discussion on this at the Council of Europe and a number of member states raised it.

I raised the need for co-ordination regarding the diplomatic channel. Incidentally, that is not perceived to be the channel that would put the most pressure on Russia. The economic side and the deployment of the peace facility of over €1 billion from the European Union are seen as far more effective in protecting the people of Ukraine and providing for humanitarian matters. Nonetheless, messages have to be sent. We will work with other EU member states on this. I genuinely believe that the more collective actions are taken by EU member states, the better.

Deputy Boyd Barrett asked questions about war crimes. I trust the international system to bring Russian war criminals to justice. It has happened. People from the Balkans were brought to trial and convicted.

Yemen, Palestine, Iraq. Forget it.

I do not forget it.

They are a different order of crimes.

I do not forget anything. I do not think we need to juxtapose one against the other all the time.

They are all war crimes.

I believe war crimes should be pursued in every context.

They have not been in Yemen.

I said every context.

Deputy Paul Murphy referred to the European Union. At the last European Council meeting, it decided to establish a fund to restore and reconstruct Ukraine in the aftermath of the war and to help with its current budgeting. Issues with debt will have to be worked out in the aftermath of the war. In the meantime, the focus is on trying to defend the people from Ukraine from a humanitarian perspective. Many members of the European Union are sending lethal weapons to help the Ukrainians to defend themselves. We sent non-lethal equipment to help Ukrainians in the war effort.

What about the suspension of the parties?

In response to Deputy Bríd Smith, we raised the issue of fossil fuels and renewables. President von der Leyen and the Commission put forward a strong narrative about energy for the future. The obvious future pathway is renewables. By the end of 2030, we have to eliminate any dependence on Russian gas, oil and coal.

But it is okay to depend on the US gas?

Renewables are the most effective way to do it. In the context of the war, one cannot ignore that countries need gas and fuel now.

We are way over time.

There will be LNG across Europe. We cannot tell them-----

By 2030, we will be dependent on US gas instead.

Deputy Dillon raised the issue of wider implications for diplomatic matters, which I have dealt with. I covered the issues raised by Deputy Paul Murphy too.

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