Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Tuesday, 17 May 2022

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

Ceisteanna (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

1. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Finland and Estonia. [20608/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul Murphy

Ceist:

2. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Finland and Estonia. [20610/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Ivana Bacik

Ceist:

3. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Finland and Estonia. [22899/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mick Barry

Ceist:

4. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Finland and Estonia. [23441/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

5. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Finland and Estonia. [24324/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Seán Haughey

Ceist:

6. Deputy Seán Haughey asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Finland and Estonia. [24475/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul McAuliffe

Ceist:

7. Deputy Paul McAuliffe asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to Finland and Estonia. [24569/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (30 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 7, inclusive, together.

My visit to Finland and Estonia on Friday, 8 April included meetings in Helsinki with the President Sauli Niinistö and the Prime Minister Sanna Marin and in Tallinn with the Prime Minister Kaja Kallas.

Our discussions focused mainly on the impact of the war in Ukraine, including on security and defence, energy policy, and the continuing humanitarian crisis. Because of their history and location, Finland and Estonia offer significant insight on Russia's military aggression, which EU leaders have condemned since the start of the war as immoral and unjustifiable. I made clear that while Ireland is a militarily neutral country, we are not politically neutral in the face of war crimes.

I also discussed EU neighbourhood policy with President Niinistö and other current European Council issues with both Prime Ministers, including climate change, digital transformation, and the EU's relations with the UK. I thanked both Prime ministers for the support and solidarity from Finland and Estonia throughout the Brexit process, and briefed them on the political situation in Northern Ireland.

While in Tallinn, I also visited the Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence, which plays an important role in enhancing Europe's capacity to deal with cyber threats, and the e-Estonia Briefing Centre, which focuses on e-health.

Ireland and Finland mark 60 years of diplomatic relations this year. Last year marked 30 years of diplomatic relations with Estonia.

There will be one minute for questions, and we will go back and forth.

I find the timing of the Taoiseach's visit to Finland and Estonia interesting because this weekend sees the biggest NATO military exercise in decades, which was planned before the war in Ukraine, taking place in Estonia involving Finland and Sweden, countries which are now planning to abandon their neutrality. That is the decision for them. It is interesting, however, that in advance of the war in Ukraine, NATO was planning massive military exercises, which it is now carrying out all over eastern Europe. We must all rightly continue to condemn the unjustifiable, brutal and murderous aggression of Putin but as a neutral country do we have nothing to say about this growing move into essentially dividing Europe into two armed military camps which are sidling up against each other in a pretty alarming way?

I thank the Deputy.

Has the Taoiseach any thoughts-----

We will hear the Taoiseach's thoughts if the Deputy gives him a chance to reply.

-----about the fact that Ireland, on foot of its position as a neutral state, should warn against this military escalation?

The Government of Finland, along with the Government of Sweden, has just announced its intention to ditch its neutrality and apply to join NATO. The latter is a US-led military alliance that is responsible for decades of brutal occupation in Afghanistan and horrendous atrocities in the Middle East. During the war in Kosovo, it bombed hospitals, prisons, embassies and many people's homes. The political establishments in Sweden and Finland have used the horrendous Russian invasion of Ukraine to drive a pre-existing agenda of joining NATO. This is a classic example of what Naomi Klein called a shock doctrine, the purpose of which is to use a real crisis to drive a pre-existing agenda. The same shock doctrine is on display here and is reflected in the Taoiseach’s comments that neutrality is a policy issue that can change at any time.

I thank the Deputy.

If he had a free hand, I am of the view that the Taoiseach would like to sign Ireland up to NATO. However, he knows that he does not have a free hand so instead he wants to chip away bit by bit at what is left of our neutrality. Will he commit to giving people a referendum to enshrine neutrality in the Constitution in order to stop it from being a policy matter that can be changed?

I thank the Taoiseach for outlining the visit to Finland and Estonia. We have all been conscious of the volte-face by Finland and Sweden in announcing that they would be joining NATO. I take this opportunity to restate the Labour Party's support for the principle of military neutrality in Ireland. There is immense public support for neutrality in Ireland, and I do not think there is any suggestion of a similar move here. We would be very strongly opposed to it. In the face of brutal Russian aggression and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, however, as an internationalist party, we want to express our support and solidarity for the people of Ukraine and our condemnation of that Russian aggression. Military neutrality does not mean political or moral neutrality in the face of brutal and unprovoked aggression on the part of a state acting in an imperialist and militaristic sense, as Russia has done in invading Ukraine. That is a view the Irish people share.

That is why there is such immense support for the solidarity we have shown in bringing Ukrainians here and in supporting Ukraine in any non-military way that we can.

Supporters of the militarisation of Europe were in full voice at the recent Conference on the Future of Europe. Emmanuel Macron, Ursula von der Leyen and others linked what they saw as the need to militarise with changes to the European treaties, including an end to unanimity clauses. Where is the Government in this debate? Will the Taoiseach support a two-tier Europe and if so, which tier does he want Ireland to be in? Will the Taoiseach support a convention for a new treaty when the issue inevitably arises at the European Council in June? Any removal of powers from the Irish State to the EU will require a referendum and if the Taoiseach was to support and advocate for that referendum, then it would be far from certain that he would win. Is the Taoiseach in favour of such a move and will he comment on these issues?

The NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence in Tallinn is staffed and funded by 34 countries, including Ireland, which is classed as a sponsoring nation. The central steering committee consists of one voting representative from each of the sponsoring nations, the membership status available to what are termed as "NATO allies". Can the Taoiseach clarify if Ireland is represented at the steering committee meetings that are held biannually and if our participation in and funding of the centre has any implications for Ireland's policy of neutrality? Could the Taoiseach outline what support this centre has provided to Ireland's National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC? As we know from the capacity review completed last year, the NCSC requires both legislation and substantial additional investment.

Security and defence matters loomed large in the Taoiseach's discussions with the Prime Ministers of Finland and Estonia following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It is Putin and his actions that are dividing the world into blocs once again and, as we know, Finland and Sweden have applied to join NATO. This will leave Austria, Malta and Ireland as the only non-aligned nation states in the EU. The Russian invasion has sparked a debate at home on Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality. Each neutral state has its own unique history and circumstances and Ireland should not join NATO but we should be actively involved in the evolving EU common security and defence policy and in the so called strategic compass. This is compatible with our peacekeeping tradition, our commitment to nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation and our commitment to the promotion of fundamental human rights. It also highlights our solidarity with the EU and with fellow EU member states. Will the Taoiseach outline to the House the security concerns of the Prime Minister of Finland which were conveyed to him? Can the Taoiseach speculate as to why Finland sees the need to join the US-led North Atlantic Treaty Organization?

The Opposition was surprised at the timing of the Taoiseach’s visit to two countries on the edge of the Russian Federation at a time when it has invaded another one of its neighbours. I am not at all surprised and the timing was correct. Today's vote in the Finnish Parliament to join NATO, by 188 votes to eight, is a sudden move but it is understandable from a Finnish perspective. While Ireland may not be on the border of Russia in terms of military activity, we are on the borders when it comes to cyber activity and the attack last year is something everybody in this country was concerned by. Will the Taoiseach outline what the Government learned from the trip? In particular, what did the Government learn about the NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence, which was mentioned by others, and about the European Centre of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats in Finland? While ruling out any decision to join NATO, I would like to see the Government continue to be involved in these type of centres, which prevent cyber activity and threats to our democracy.

Deputy Boyd Barrett again chose his words carefully. When he suggested that the timing was interesting the clear implication was that I was going there because of NATO and Finland's application to join it, which was not the case at all. Both countries offer significant insights and they are both members of the European Union, by the way. I hope there is no problem with visiting fellow member states of the European Union. They are not the Swedish establishment or the Finnish establishment; they are the elected governments of those countries.

The establishment parties.

That language, or the word "establishment", conveys that there is some sort of elite there that has no connection with anybody. Those governments are elected and I met the elected governments.

Like the Taoiseach is elected.

No country has navigated an extraordinary relationship with Russia over such a long period of time peacefully and in co-existence more than Finland has. The Prime Minister of Finland told me that everything they were taught during their school days about the potential fear and threat of what could happen was realised in the invasion of Ukraine. Given that it is physically on the border of Russia there is a fundamental question that begs to be answered, namely, who will come to protect them if Russia invades. No one is obliged to do so. There is a mutual assistance clause in the European Union which is not as well defined as the NATO provisions are for a country like Finland. Ukraine is not in NATO and it is defending itself. Ukraine is getting support and weaponry from outside but it is young Ukrainian men who are on the front line.

The Deputies should never take from the fact that the reason Finland and Sweden are applying for NATO membership is the immoral and unjustifiable invasion of Ukraine by Russia. There is no other rationale for it. That has been the clear catalyst for their applications and I would not call it a shock doctrine or say that people are delighted that they can now join NATO. That is not it and public opinion has changed dramatically. As Deputy McAuliffe said, the vote in the Finnish Parliament is indicative of the degree to which public opinion has shifted in both countries because of what has happened. What is happening is barbaric by any standard and entire towns and cities are being levelled in Ukraine. If you are near the border or on the border you have a different perspective; that is the reality of life and it is human nature.

I do not buy the argument that NATO planning major exercises is somehow comparable with what is happening in Ukraine. It is not and NATO has attacked nobody.

NATO has not attacked anybody.

NATO did not bomb any town or city.

It has. Not now-----

This whataboutery and attempt by Deputies Paul Murphy and Boyd Barrett to have equivalence-----

This is whataboutery.

-----between NATO and Russia's behaviour is unacceptable and wrong because NATO and NATO states like France and Germany did everything they possibly could to prevent war prior to it breaking out. I would make the same point to Deputy Barry. There is no militarisation of Europe but it will not be foolish in the face of Russian aggression against Europe.

Talk to Mr. Macron.

Deputies O'Rourke and Haughey mentioned cybersecurity. I do not know whether Deputy O'Rourke is for us participating in this security centre. He is. The NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence is a multinational and interdisciplinary hub of cyber defence and it is located in Tallinn. It is staffed and financed by member nations and it is not part of NATO's military command or force structure. We applied for contributing participant status in November 2019 and the formal process to finalise accession is expected to conclude later this year. A member of the Defence Forces has been on secondment there as a national expert since November 2020. Our national expert works in the cyber operations branch and currently undertakes research on cybersecurity, cyber defence, planning processes and cyber threat intelligence gathering. Officials from the NCSC also engage in training provided by the centre.

I agree with Deputy Haughey's perspectives. It was Fianna Fáil that led Ireland to joining the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons so we have a strong commitment to nuclear non-proliferation as a political party. We see that as a positive part of our military neutrality to date. Neutrality is a policy question. If we were to join a European defence pact that would be a matter for a referendum because the Constitution would have to be changed to facilitate that. We should have a reflective and informed debate and I have suggested the citizens' assembly as a way we could do that.

Cabinet Committees

Ceisteanna (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)

Cian O'Callaghan

Ceist:

8. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [22094/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

9. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with transport will next meet. [22875/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Bernard Durkan

Ceist:

10. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Taoiseach the extent of any recent changes to the national risk assessment; and the action taken arising from same. [22928/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Ivana Bacik

Ceist:

11. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [22900/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Cian O'Callaghan

Ceist:

12. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [23380/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

13. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [24523/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul Murphy

Ceist:

14. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [24526/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mick Barry

Ceist:

15. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [24529/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mick Barry

Ceist:

16. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with transport will next meet. [24530/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul McAuliffe

Ceist:

17. Deputy Paul McAuliffe asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [24570/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Ceist:

18. Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [24572/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

19. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will provide and update on the national risk assessment. [24774/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul Murphy

Ceist:

20. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will provide and update on the national risk assessment. [24777/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Cian O'Callaghan

Ceist:

21. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the housing and infrastructure unit of his Department. [24808/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (21 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 to 21, inclusive, together.

The housing and infrastructure unit supports me and the Government in building a successful society and economy through sustainable economic development with a particular focus on housing and infrastructure policy. This includes supporting the work of the Cabinet committee on housing which oversees the delivery of Housing for All. The unit monitors implementation of Housing for All and prepares quarterly progress reports. The most recent of these, for quarter 1 of 2022, was published in April and shows strong progress towards fundamental reform of the housing system, and the implementation of measures to increase the supply of quality and affordable housing.

While we are seeing good progress and we are confident of good progress on housing delivery in 2022, we recognise that there are many challenges to be overcome, including ongoing inflationary pressures and supply chain issues. Given the need for accommodation arising from our humanitarian response to the situation in Ukraine, delivering on the plan is more important than ever. The Cabinet committee will maintain focus on this delivery.

As part of the broader economic division, the unit also maintains an overview of progress in key policy areas in line with Government priorities and provides me with briefing and speech material on relevant policy issues.

The unit also develops the national risk assessment, which plays an important role in promoting an open and inclusive discussion on the strategic risks facing the country. The national risk assessment for 2021-2022 was published in December. Many of the risks in the report have been identified in previous assessments. However, there are a number of new risks, including inflation, and a number of previously identified risks, including housing and cybersecurity, which have evolved considerably. This is at the same time as major risks, in particular climate change, have taken on an even great importance.

The report also identifies major geopolitical risks, including the rise of a multipolar world, Ireland's post-Brexit relationship with the United Kingdom and the risk of armed conflict as we are now seeing to horrendous effect with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The national risk assessment is just one element of the overall system of preparedness and resilience planning for Ireland and is not intended to replicate or displace the detailed risk management and preparedness which takes place across Departments and agencies.

There is no dedicated Cabinet committee dealing with transport; rather transport-related matters are discussed in a number of Cabinet committees, as appropriate. This occurs most usually at the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment, and at the Cabinet committee on the environment and climate change. As with all policy areas, transport issues are also regularly discussed at full Cabinet meetings where all formal decisions are made.

The Minister for Finance said that the local property tax returns show low levels of vacancy across the country. The comments from the Minister do not reflect the reality in communities. In Cork city, Jude Sherry and Frank O'Connor have identified 700 derelict properties located within 2 km of the city centre. Data from the national GeoDirectory show at least 90,000 vacant homes and 22,000 derelict homes. Does the Taoiseach accept that the returns from the local property tax are flawed and do not reflect the amount of vacancy that actually exists? Does he accept a survey that was not completed by 380,000 households is not a good source of data on this? When will the Government introduce a tax to bring vacant homes back into use?

In response to questions raised by my colleague Deputy Mac Lochlainn last month, the Taoiseach agreed to engage with the Minister for Transport on the restoration of Government funding to the City of Derry Airport. If the airport is not eligible for funding from the Irish Exchequer under the regional airports programme, the shared island initiative is an obvious option to explore. I know the Taoiseach is aware how significant connectivity is. The Departments of an Taoiseach and Transport recently committed to a review of air routes between Dublin and Derry as well as Cork and Belfast. Can we get an update on that?

I thank the Taoiseach for his initial reply. I ask the extent to which the extra risks have been identified, isolated and are being pursued at present with particular reference to the supply of imported goods and racing inflation affecting almost every sector at the moment. I ask the Taoiseach to what extent a positive intervention can be made on the one hand to avert and on the other hand to identify the precise causes.

Last week another report from Daft revealed record rents and serious shortages of supply. I was in Limerick yesterday and I heard that only five properties are available to rent in the entire city. We need to ensure our stock of housing is being used more effectively along with ensuring more supply of homes coming on-stream. Is the Government taking any action to ensure an effective vacant housing tax will be introduced without further delay? It is also a climate measure ensuring we use our building stock more effectively. Most importantly it makes more homes available for more people.

I have raised the case of a particular woman multiple times. This week after a long fight, it was confirmed she has lost nearly a decade on housing waiting list because her income went €38 over the income threshold. Another family of six only earns €31,000 but because of an averaging of income earned by another member of the family over the previous year will now be evicted from homeless accommodation.

The Deputy's time is up.

I know of another couple who have just been cut off from the housing list because of their income.

The Deputy's time is up. I call Deputy Paul Murphy.

When will the Government raise the income thresholds for social housing as I have repeatedly requested over five years?

Public transport fares have recently been reduced for the first time since the Second World War. As a consequence, we have seen an increase in passenger numbers which is very welcome. Imagine what moving to free, fast and frequent public transport could do. We know that cutting fares saves people's money, reduces congestion and cuts CO2 emissions. More than 100 cities and towns across the globe have now moved to fare-free public transport and we should do the same here. It is one of the demands of the Cost-of-Living Coalition which is holding a protest outside Leinster House on Thursday at 1 o'clock. Will the Taoiseach support a plan to achieve fare-free public transport?

When the pandemic raged, bus drivers kept society on the move, risking their health day after day as key front-line workers. How are they being repaid? They are being repaid with a kick in the teeth. Bus Éireann is threatening to freeze their wages, not just for 2022 but for next year as well. While prices continually increase, this represents a massive pay cut. What does the Taoiseach say about this situation? Does he think this is what the drivers deserve? I would like to hear his views on it.

Last week Dublin City Council, the HSE and the ETB launched a plan for public homes on public land with infrastructure to match. It will include a primary care centre and an increase in all-weather sporting facilities along with 100 homes. These facilities along with the new family resource centre in the area will be crucial to support the community in Finglas. Will the Taoiseach ensure that the primary care centre will be included in the capital plan for next year? Will he come to Finglas and visit the new family resource centre which is doing great work without premises and will do an even greater job with the new facility?

Affordable housing regulations require that 70% of the units advertised must be allocated on the basis of priorities. This only leaves 30% of the units for the local authority based on the local criteria. In the last private housing scheme to come on the market in Carlow, 26% of the units were sold to people who were not resident. It meant that because of the criteria the Carlow people did not qualify. Can the criteria be set so that people in the local area who want to buy affordable housing meet the criteria?

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan raised the issue of the local property tax in respect of vacancies. Vacancies and dereliction are two separate concepts. In a recent analysis, 96% of all apartments in Dublin were occupied despite all the commentary that lots of apartments are empty. I think that was in the Daft report; I will check the source of that. We need to be careful with our descriptions and definitions.

The principal purpose of the residential zoned land tax is to encourage the timely activation of zoned and serviced residential development land for housing in order that identified housing need can be met through the delivery of suitably located housing development. That will be an important factor to ensure we can get land at zone. That is one element of this.

The existing vacant sites levy has not been an effective mechanism for preventing land hoarding and speculation. There are many loopholes. The residential zoned land tax will be more broad based, with very few exemptions, and will be administered by Revenue rather than local authorities.

The Housing for All strategy includes an action for the Department of Finance to collect data on vacancy with a view to introducing a vacant property tax. The recent local property tax re-evaluation enabled Revenue to collect certain information on vacant properties in the local property tax return forms submitted by residential property owners. The information on vacancy in the local property tax returns in respect of approximately 2 million properties is currently being analysed by Revenue and together with the information from other available sources will be used to assess the merits and inform the design of a vacant property tax. That will be considered by the Minister with a view to the introduction of a residential property tax as soon as possible.

I do not have an update for Deputy O'Rourke. My Department is engaging with the Department for Transport in respect of the availability of funds under the shared island initiative. We are endeavouring to get everybody to agree on the importance of the connection provided by a Dublin to Derry air service.

In response to Deputy Durkan, there are certainly risks in terms of inflation, particularly in the cost of construction supplies. There is an inflationary cycle. It is a worry for many builders and that is why the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, changed the fixed contract to create a more co-operative framework to enable projects to be completed in the context of the significant level of inflation that has occurred and in order to ensure people continue to tender for projects. That is a concern. The cause is the war in Ukraine and there are further challenges ahead in that regard.

Deputy Bacik raised the issue of using the vacant tax and I dealt with that issue in an earlier reply. We must use the existing housing stock more effectively. We will continue to work on measures to incentivise the use of existing housing stock more broadly. I know that the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, will have some important announcements in terms of the social protection code to the effect that people who let out their houses will not be disadvantaged in terms of various social welfare protections. We are constantly looking at ways to incentivise the use of existing housing stock.

Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the issue of income thresholds. The Minister indicated to the Deputy last week that the review is complete. The Minister should be in a position to comment on that.

When will that happen?

The Minister said his announcement is imminent. I will ask him to confirm when he will make an announcement in that respect and come back to the Deputy.

It is welcome that we have cut the fares for public transport and that it is leading to an increase in uptake. Free fares is not a realistic prospect. The Government made the decision to cut fares as part of its anti-inflationary measures. We also made the decision in the budget to halve fares for 17- to 25-year-olds. That will also be effective and important in encouraging and incentivising the use of public transport. We will keep that under review.

Who did Deputy Barry say is proposing a wage freeze?

Bus Éireann is proposing it.

That is not my understanding but I will follow that up.

Deputy McAuliffe raised the issue of-----

I raised the issue of the Finglas primary care centre.

I would love to call out to Finglas to visit the family resource centre. I will talk to the Minister about the primary care facility, housing need and the potential provision of housing in that area.

I will talk to the Minister about the specifics of the proposal made by Deputy Murnane O'Connor in terms of providing greater opportunity to the people of Carlow to avail of affordable housing. The criteria provided will facilitate the inclusion of people who live in the area to avail of housing. That is a worthy objective indeed.

Departmental Bodies

Ceisteanna (22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)

Ivana Bacik

Ceist:

22. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [22902/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Catherine Murphy

Ceist:

23. Deputy Catherine Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [24127/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Pa Daly

Ceist:

24. Deputy Pa Daly asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [24359/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Niamh Smyth

Ceist:

25. Deputy Niamh Smyth asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [24476/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

26. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [24524/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul Murphy

Ceist:

27. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [24527/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mick Barry

Ceist:

28. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [24531/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Paul McAuliffe

Ceist:

29. Deputy Paul McAuliffe asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the public service, justice and policing reform division of his Department. [24571/22]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (27 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 22 to 29, inclusive, together.

The public service, justice and policing reform unit is part of the social policy and public service reform division of my Department. The work of the unit supports me, in my role as Taoiseach, on policing reform, criminal justice, public service reform, social affairs and other related matters. It incorporates the policing reform implementation programme office, which oversees the implementation of A Policing Service for our Future, the Government's plan to implement the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. The unit also supports the Civil Service management board, including the Civil Service renewal programme, and contributes to the oversight and governance of the new public services reform plan.

The unit also assists the work of the Cabinet committee on social affairs and equality, and the associated senior officials' group established to oversee implementation of programme for Government commitments in the areas of social policy, equality and public services. Policy areas covered include gender equality, which encompasses efforts to address domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, and matters relating to arts and culture, children, justice, policing reform and community safety, disability, social inclusion, direct provision, the Irish language, and sport.

In addition, the section has departmental oversight of the National Economic and Social Council. It participates in relevant interdepartmental committees and other groups and provides me with briefing and speech material on criminal justice and policing matters, as well as social policy and public service reform issues.

I will refer to the policing reform division and its work. As the Taoiseach knows, the Labour Party has for many years been a strong proponent of policing reform and we successfully argued for the introduction of the Policing Authority. I wish to ask the Taoiseach about the general scheme of the policing security and community safety Bill, which I understand was published more than a year ago. I would like the Taoiseach to confirm that the Government intends to move back to a governance structure that would effectively replace the Policing Authority and reinstate what may amount to an old way of governance, namely, an internal, non-executive Garda board, to take responsibility for governance and to be reinvested with the power of appointments. Legitimate concerns about this model have been raised by experts such as Dr. Vicky Conway and Dr. Eddie Molloy. Indeed, questions have been raised by Ms Josephine Feehily and Mr. Conor Brady, a former member of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, as to how this would work and whether it might dilute the main plank of the previous reforms introduced when the Commissioner was made accountable to the Policing Authority. Is the Government going to proceed with the changes proposed in the general scheme of the Bill or will it revisit those changes?

I will also focus on the justice and policing reform aspect of the question, and the continued use of the Garda crime statistics with the caveat "according to figures released under reservation by the CSO". The current Garda Commissioner was appointed five years ago and we appear to be no closer to having reliable crime data. Such data is critical for policing plans as there is no evidence that the census of population is used in policing plans. I have, over a couple of decades, looked at how resources are deployed. We are without reliable crime statistics. When are we likely to get to the point where we have reliable crime statistics without that caveat?

Policing reform is important. The pre-legislative scrutiny of the policing security and community safety Bill and the Garda Síochána (powers) Bill is taking place at the Joint Committee on Justice. This comes after a debate on both Bills. The power of the GSOC to look into historical cases is important, especially in the so-called Kerry babies case. There still has been no explanation as to how five or six members of the same family in different rooms in one Garda station all made statements that could not possibly have been true. It was a systematic failure. We cannot get to a place where the police service has been reformed without this being investigated and accounted for.

The Hayes family has received an apology but the apology was delivered because the standards of a proper Garda investigation were not met. That is not good enough. An explanation needs to be given as to how those family members came to make the same statement. Will the Taoiseach commit to this being a major plank of any policing reform? Will he endorse proper resources and legislation for GSOC so it can look into these historic cases?

I raise the matter of the death of Shane O'Farrell in a hit-and-run accident which stole a beautiful 23-year-old son from Lucia and Jim and took a deeply loved brother from his sisters in 2011.

The Taoiseach has met the O'Farrell family on a number of occasions and is acutely aware of how the criminal justice system failed Shane and continues to fail his grieving family. The man who perpetrated this awful crime was in breach of a bail bond for various courts. He had received a custodial sentence for four heroin offences which he never served. He had committed 37 offences while on bail before killing Shane O'Farrell and should have been in custody at the time of Shane's death.

I implore the Taoiseach to give the O'Farrell family the opportunity to know the truth about the circumstances of Shane's death and grant them the public inquiry for which both House of the Oireachtas voted. Justice delayed is justice denied and this family has suffered enough.

I want to raise an issue that I am surprised did not get more attention and about which more concern was not expressed, namely the recent departure of Ms Anne O'Connor, the chief operations officer from the HSE to take up a post with a private health insurance company, VHI. There has been a lot of talk about the need to have some sort of cooling off period between going from very senior positions in the public service to private companies when there is potentially a conflict of interest. VHI's job is to make money out of healthcare whereas this Government and the State is supposed to be committed to a single tier, public health service under Sláintecare and yet there is a revolving door through which the chief operations officer of the HSE goes straight into a private health insurance company. That is just not on. We need public sector reform so that there is a significant cooling off period for very senior staff, like the chief operations officer of the HSE, who have access to a lot information which could potentially be beneficial to a private company operating for profit in the healthcare sector.

Thousands of workers in our bars and restaurants are being told to leave the country by the end of the month as the Department of Justice is refusing to give a simple extension until September for those on stamp 2 visas. This means thousands of people will have to leave their accommodation and jobs for the summer. When they return next September they will have to try to find new apartments and new jobs when their new courses begin. It is a ludicrous situation. The English Language Students Union, ELSU, is calling for a three month extension to stamp 2 visas to tide people over until September. It is a very simple measure but I understand that so far the Department of Justice has absolutely refused to budge. Will the Taoiseach intervene this week to grant this extension before it is too late, to give workers peace of mind and before they have packed up and left?

I want to raise again the case of George Nkencho. It is my understanding that the inquest into the death of George Nkencho is due to reconvene in June. However, it is also my understanding that the inquest cannot properly reconvene until such time as the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, investigation into his death is complete. That investigation is not yet complete. The Nkencho family had been given to believe that it would be completed before the one-year anniversary of George's death, that is, by the end of December last year but several months on, that is still not the case. Now the delay in the investigation is threatening to delay the reconvening and conclusion of the inquest. This family have been through untold trauma which is being added to by these delays. I would like to hear the Taoiseach's comments on this matter.

On the issues of public service, policing and justice, the Taoiseach's Department has for some time operated the north inner city intervention to support that community. The programme for Government makes it clear that we will roll out a similar type of intervention in similar communities around the country. The community of Ballymun has engaged with the Taoiseach and with his predecessor on the drafting of a report identifying clear requests. We wait patiently, not just for engagement to which the Taoiseach is committed, but to see the outcome of the work that his Department has done in terms of how we respond to the challenges facing these communities. The Ministers for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Social Protection, Deputies Darragh O'Brien and Humphreys, and the Taoiseach have all been working on this and what we are impatiently waiting for is the outcome of that process, to have a similar intervention in our area and many other areas around the country. I know this is something to which the Taoiseach is personally committed. We want to see the output of all of the hard work.

I want to raise the scoping exercise established over three years ago into the death of Shane O'Farrell. That was expected to take weeks or possibly months but it was never expected to take years. It is clear that the only way forward remains the establishment of a public inquiry into the death of Shane O'Farrell, as supported by the Taoiseach and his party. Will the Taoiseach progress such an inquiry before he leaves office on 15 December?

There is a range of issues to be covered. First, on the draft policing, security and community safety Bill which Deputy Bacik raised, in April of last year the general scheme was published. Among the objectives, clearly, is to provide a new, more coherent governance and oversight framework to strengthen both the external oversight of An Garda Síochána, as well as its internal governance. The approach was recommended by the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland in its 2018 report. In preparing the scheme, the Department of Justice has had advice from the Attorney General. I take Deputy Bacik's point and I know that the Labour Party has a view on the policing board and the issue around governance.

The Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice is currently conducting pre-legislative scrutiny on the Bill and has already heard from a number of interested parties including the Garda Commissioner. I trust the Labour Party representative on that committee is pursuing the issues also and I look forward to reading the committee's report in due course. The Department of Justice will continue to engage with the Garda Commissioner and other stakeholders in progressing this important legislation. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, hopes to be in a position to seek the approval of the Cabinet before the summer. However, there are a number of dependencies that will impact the finalisation of the draft Bill. There is a commitment to consult with stakeholders on a draft of the Bill once it is sufficiently advanced. The receipt of the joint committee's report and consideration of its recommendations will have an impact on the timing of those consultations. In addition, in view of the size of the draft, it will also be necessary to allow a number of weeks for stakeholders to respond once they receive the draft. I understand that the pre-legislative scrutiny report is expected to be received by mid-May. Subject to the drafting of the Bill being sufficiently advanced, a draft of the Bill may be circulated to stakeholders in mid-June. Perhaps during the course of all of that work there can be further consideration of and reflection on the governance structures.

On crime statistics, I am not quite clear on Deputy Murphy's concerns.

There is a caveat from the CSO on the crime statistics and that continues to be in place.

I will revert back to the Deputy. I will engage with the Minister on that. We are all looking for a comprehensively sound database in respect of the crime statistics.

Deputy Daly raised the issue of GSOC and historical inquiries. The volume of cases currently being heard by GSOC is quite considerable. As I have said previously, there has to be some balance, unfortunately, in terms of the work of GSOC and what gets prioritised and dealt with. There are real issues there. There are up to 2,000 cases or complaints per year but we will engage with GSOC in relation to historical inquiries. Deputy Daly referenced the Kerry babies case in particular. Perhaps there are ways of learning lessons from those cases without full commissions of inquiry being necessitated.

A proper apology-----

A proper apology. An apology was issued-----

-----and an explanation-----

Maybe I took Deputy Daly up wrong but I thought he was looking for an historical inquiry into the case but we will have to assess that in the context of the capacity of GSOC, to be frank. We will look at that.

On the death of Shane O'Farrell and the scoping exercise, I have met the O'Farrell family, most recently with Deputy Niamh Smyth, who raised Shane's death initially today.

It is a very harrowing case and a very sad situation. I hope that the scoping inquiry will be brought to completion very quickly because it has been ongoing for nearly three years at this stage. Covid and so forth has not helped but that said, the family have made detailed submissions. The family have presented to me on the many issues they are concerned about with regard to the scoping inquiry. Before any decision is taken, I believe the Government and everybody will need to see the scoping inquiry report published. That will not, in itself, prejudice the decision of the Government around the initiation of a public inquiry but it is important that we would bring that to a conclusion. A lot of pain and anguish has been felt by the O'Farrell family in respect of the tragic death of Shane. Once the Minister gets the report, the Attorney General will give advice and will publish the report and any other issues that arise from that advice. Hopefully, we can bring the scoping part of it to a conclusion very quickly. Deputy O'Rourke referred to that also.

Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the issue of Anne O'Connor ending her career with the HSE and moving on to a career with the VHI, the voluntary health insurance body. Again, there are provisions in terms of cooling-off systems and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is examining even further provisions in that respect. If I am not mistaken, he may have published legislation in that regard. We must be balanced about the issue of people moving careers. I believe it should apply to people in senior positions such as Secretaries General and to Ministers but there is a limit too. There is the balancing of rights in terms of individual rights as well. The voluntary health insurance sector has a remit and a role. There is an argument to be made there and issues to be teased out there. If we are saying that people at different levels in different organisations cannot move or cannot change careers, we must think about that and reflect upon that in the context of the rights of the individual.

There is a bit of a conflict though.

Think it through in terms of the decisions. There is information and access but to what great degree? Policy has to dictate the public health system and the public health service.

I am loath to interrupt the Taoiseach but we must maintain the speaking times.

Deputy Paul Murphy asked about the stamp 2 visas. I believe these have been extended on nine occasions.

But are they going to be extended on this occasion?

It has been extended nine times.

The rhetoric articulated by the Deputy suggests that the Minister is doing nothing. The Minister has extended these on nine occasions.

But are they going to be extended on this occasion?

There comes a time when we must have some balance also in what we are doing on overall policy and frameworks, to be fair all around.

I do not have the full details on Deputy Barry's question on the inquest. I will come back to the Deputy on the issue he has raised.

Deputy McAuliffe asked about policing. We are working on this committee. We did not get to deal with it yesterday but at the next committee meeting hopefully we will bring that to a conclusion. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is proceeding with the allocation of €2 million to support community partnerships and groups on the ground in the various communities. We are looking at a more comprehensive approach also.

Deputy O'Rourke also raised the issue of the Shane O'Farrell scoping inquiry, which I addressed earlier.

Barr
Roinn