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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 16 May 2024

Business of Committee

The public business before us this afternoon is minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business.

The minutes of our meeting of 9 May 2024 have been circulated. Do members wish to raise any matters in respect of the minutes? Is everybody satisfied that they are accurate? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee’s web page.

Two sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 6 and 10 May. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address them before I open the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

First, we have the Irish Aviation Authority. This is a new body under my remit, so it relates to the first period of account for the year 2023. It received a clear audit opinion.

Second is the Health Information and Quality Authority. It received a qualified audit opinion for 2023 on the basis that the accounts give a true and fair view, except that they account for the cost of retirement benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable. That is a standard qualification and provision in relation to health bodies.

When was the Irish Aviation Authority set up?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was established on foot of legislation passed in 2022. It came within my remit on 1 January 2023. There was a previous Irish Aviation Authority, but there was significant restructuring. There is now a State body for air navigation which is separate and which I do not audit because it raises funds in respect of air navigation. This is more the safety and regulatory function. That part of the previous Irish Aviation Authority was merged with the aviation regulator.

Do members wish to comment on the accounts and financial statements? Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? That is agreed. As usual, the list of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of the minutes.

Moving to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on its web page.

Two items have been flagged for discussion under category B, which comprises correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow up to Committee of Public Accounts meetings.

No. R2583 is from Ms Thelma Watters, chief superintendent, An Garda Síochána, dated 3 May. It provides follow-up information to the committee in respect of questions raised at the meeting of 21 March. I flagged this item because there are a couple of interesting things in it. The cost of suspended members has more than doubled, from €2.879 million in 2020 for 67 suspended gardaí to almost €5.9 million for 110 gardaí in 2023. They do not give any details. I would not expect personal details of individual gardaí but there is limited enough information in it. The cost of the Joe Biden visit was €31.8 million. There is an issue with financial mismanagement and allegations in relation to matters brought to the attention of previous iterations of the Committee of Public Accounts. There has not been any disciplinary action taken on foot of any of that. E-scooter legislation will come into force from next Monday. That is welcome. The matter has been raised at previous meetings of the committee. It is proposed that we note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R2592 is from Bernie McNally, Secretary General of the Department of Education, dated 8 May. This relates to the school transport scheme. Two questions were answered by Ms McNally. First, Ukrainian students make up a significant proportion of those needing access to school transport. The rest of the figures provided are, for the most part, out of date. The documents involved were previously requested by the Committee of Public Accounts over a period of seven years, as far as I can see.

It is proposed to note and publish it. I take that as agreed.

No. R2588 is from Deputy Alan Kelly. I suggest that we defer it so that the details can be agreed when more members are present. I take that as agreed.

We will move on to the work programme, which has been circulated to members. It is on the screen. Any members who are joining online will see it. Next week, we will engage with the Department of Defence in relation to Vote 35 – Army Pensions, Vote 36 – Defence, and Chapter 12 of the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which deals with stock management. The Army Reserve has been flagged as an area of interest. This will be the first time the Department of Defence will be before the committee during this mandate. Had it been before the committee much under previous mandates?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was in during the previous Dáil. There was an excess Vote, which is an unusual circumstance to happen. The Accounting Officer appeared before the committee in relation to that.

We look forward to having them in next week.

On 30 May, the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board will be before the committee in relation to the 2022 financial statements. Representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE have also been invited to attend.

On 13 June, we will engage with the OPW in relation to Vote 13 – Office of Public Works. The following areas have been flagged: the proposed national children's science museum project, flood relief schemes, vacant properties in the OPW portfolio, modular housing for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection, and non-compliant procurement. Last week, a query was raised about whether the OPW or the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is responsible for the expenditure regarding modular housing for the Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to clarify that matter.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The expenditure is actually met under the Vote for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, but the OPW acts as an agent for it. It is spending the money, if you like, but it is then recouped from the Department. Both bodies have responsibilities in relation to that programme.

The Department of housing seems to have no role in it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Not directly.

Okay. So-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Sorry, I should say that some of the sites are being provided by local authorities and I think there are some from other State agencies as well-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

-----but the Department does not have a direct role.

The main thing is the OPW. The OPW is doing the delivery.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, it is actively managing the procurement and the delivery.

Okay. I propose that we invite a representative from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to attend alongside the OPW on 13 June. I take that as agreed.

On 20 June we will engage with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board in relation to its 2022 financial statements. A representative of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has also been invited to attend this meeting. It is also proposed to invite a representative from Horse Racing Ireland to attend. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On 27 June, we will engage with the Road Safety Authority in relation to its 2022 financial statements. A representative of the Department of Transport has also been invited to attend this meeting. The following areas of interest have been flagged: road safety statistics and performance metrics; outcomes of expenditure and accounts; vehicle testing; driver testing; issuing driver licences; and GDPR issues which arise in the context of providing accident information to local authorities.

On 4 July, which is the American independence day, we will meet with Waterways Ireland, which is an all-Ireland body-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is a North-South body.

-----in relation to its 2022 financial statements.

On 11 July, we will meet with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in relation to Vote 30 – Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and Chapter 10 of the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which deals with estate management in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Does any member wish to comment on any of that or add anything to the work programme? No. I take it that the work programme is agreed. That concludes our consideration of the programme for today. The last item on the agenda is any other business. If any member has any issue they wish to raise publicly under any other business, they may feel free to do so. No. We will now adjourn until next Thursday when we will engage with the Department of Defence.

The committee adjourned at 2.05 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 23 May 2024.
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