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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 May 2024

Issues Relating to Road Safety: An Garda Síochána

On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from An Garda Síochána Commissioner Drew Harris and Assistant Commissioner Paula Hilman.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not be able to permit any member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside of the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite Commissioner Harris to make his opening statement.

Mr. Drew Harris

I thank the Chairman and committee members for the invitation to attend the meeting to discuss this very important issue. I am joined by Assistant Commissioner Paula Hilman, who has responsibility for roads policing and community engagement within An Garda Síochána.

I share members' deep concern in respect of the current level of road traffic fatalities, and I assure them and the public that An Garda Síochána remains committed to road safety and to reducing the number of fatalities on our roads. To date, 72 people have lost their lives on Irish roads this year. Their families are grieving and missing a loved one, and their lives have been changed forever. To those families, I extend my deepest sympathies, and I reiterate that for An Garda Síochána, any death on our roads is one too many. This is why we consider road safety a very serious matter. We are committed to working with all our partners and communities to ensure our roads are a safer place for all. We acknowledge we cannot solve this problem alone, and we continue to work in partnership with the Road Safety Authority and other statutory bodies and interagency partners to strengthen our collaboration and to achieve Vision Zero under the Road Safety Strategy 2021-2030.

As members will know, the first phase action plan of the strategy, out to 2024, involves 186 actions for delivery by the partners to the strategy under the seven safe system priority intervention areas. While I acknowledge we are facing pressures in resourcing and demand throughout An Garda Síochána, I assure the committee and the public that there is certainly no organisational policy to reduce the numbers of our members in roads policing units. Garda recruitment continues and accelerates, and as additional Garda members become available, they are being deployed to priority areas, including roads policing. We plan to add 75 gardaí to roads policing this year and a further 75 in 2025, and working towards this, we are proactively recruiting into our roads policing units.

We have competitions for new allocations in the eastern, north-western and southern regions. Meanwhile, allocations to roads policing units in the Dublin metropolitan region have already commenced from an existing panel.

In recognition of the upward trend in road fatalities, we are also implementing a number of key measures which have proven success in curbing poor driver behaviour in other jurisdictions. This includes the recent road traffic enforcement measure which calls for 30 minutes of high-visibility roads policing duty during every uniform tour of duty. This has the effect of increasing Garda visibility, which, in turn, works to moderate driver and road user behaviour, as well as increase enforcement.

In the first four weeks of the 30-minute operation, which commenced on 12 April 2024, we saw increases in detections based on a comparable period in March. This included a 55% increase in fixed charge notices being issued for mobile phone use; a 40% increase in the number of breath tests conducted at mandatory intoxicant testing, or MIT, checkpoints; and a 17% increase in those detected driving under the influence. This led to a 30% increase in the number of vehicles seized under section 41 of the Road Traffic Acts, as amended. We can go into more detail on that later.

All front-line members of An Garda Síochána, even those outside of full-time roads policing units, have a role to play in the enforcement of road traffic legislation and do so on a daily basis. For instance, in 2023, non-roads policing allocated personnel were responsible for 70% of driving under the influence detections and 24.5% of the enforcement of mobile phone, seatbelt and speeding offences. We are all aware that speed kills, but just to provide some context to this, it has been shown that if a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle travelling at 50 km/h, they have a 50% chance of surviving the collision. However, that reduces significantly to just 10% if they are struck by a vehicle travelling at 60 km/h. A small change in speed can and does have a huge impact.

On our enforcement activity in this area, we have issued 45,951 fixed charge notices for speeding so far this year. Of those, approximately 70% were detected via the use of mobile safety cameras. There are currently 55 mobile safety cameras operational nationwide. This is set to increase to 58 in the coming weeks. Meanwhile, following the successful roll-out of two average speed safety camera systems on the N7 and at the Dublin Port tunnel, three more will be added in quarter 3 of this year along the N3, N5 and N2.

Working from our own Garda budget and supported by the Department of Justice, we have supplemented the existing mobile safety cameras and average safety cameras with new static safety cameras, which will be installed along nine national routes in other locations across the country in quarter 4 of this year. These nine static speed cameras will cost €2.4 million over the next 18 months. Their locations have been selected based on fatal and serious injury collision data from the last seven years.

Beyond that, I have requested that Assistant Commissioner Hilman develop a business case for the introduction of further speed cameras. We aim to substantially increase the number of static speed cameras. A business case will be prepared as part of An Garda Síochána’s application for its overall funding in the 2025 Estimates process.

I also acknowledge that Garda members have been working hard in the area of road safety and we are seeing the impact of this in our enforcement statistics and also in the development and expansion of our education activities within communities. We have issued 7,557 fixed charge notices in respect of mobile phone use so far this year. This is to remind the public that it only takes a split second for the unthinkable to happen.

As of 9 May 2024, we had detected 2,870 incidents of driving while intoxicated either under the influence of alcohol or drugs. We introduced a new DrugWipe technology in December 2022, which delivers fast and very reliable results in detecting a range of illicit drugs. Based on last year’s data, we have seen that drug driving detections account for over one third of detections of driving while intoxicated. This is a very worrying trend. The DrugWipe test is one of the many advances that have been made to support gardaí in their roads policing efforts. We have also improved our roadside breath test devices and speed detection equipment and increased the number of automated number plate recognition, APNR, equipped vehicles.

In addition, An Garda Síochána has enhanced its policing technologies. For instance, all gardaí can now issue fixed charge notices and check vehicle data, personal data and insurance data directly through a personal mobility device on the side of the road. Since the introduction of the insurance data app on mobility devices, we have seen a steady increase in the number of vehicles detained where the reason includes no insurance. This year to date, we have seized 6,675 vehicles where one of the reasons for doing so related to the driver having no insurance. This represents a 70% increase on the same period in 2023.

For our roads to be safe, we cannot solely rely on enforcement and we have a complementary approach in respect of education. We recognise that educating people of all ages has the potential to help keep more people safe on or near our roads. To that end, we actively engage in workplace briefings, deliver road safety talks in schools and third level institutions, as well as delivering primary schools and transition year road safety programmes. Further to this activity, An Garda Síochána rolled out the lifesaver project nationally in October 2023. This is a hard-hitting interactive road safety talk which can be delivered to school groups, industry professionals or community groups and highlights the impact of road traffic collisions. We continue to carry out high-profile days of action, such as our recent national slow down day, which work to highlight and promote road safety. We utilise communications tools such as our social media channels and our flagship television programme "Crimecall" to highlight road traffic enforcement.

In April, we launched a series of TikTok videos which focused on distracted driving and to date this series has received 2.8 million views. Of those who engaged with the series, almost 44% were aged between 18 and 34 years.

I take this opportunity to advise anyone getting behind the wheel of any vehicle today to consider carefully how their actions could impact others and indeed themselves. I urge them to slow down, put their phones away and give their full attention to the road.

I thank Commissioner Harris for attending. I will contribute first, followed by other members.

This is one of the most important meetings we have ever had because we are dealing with life and death, literally. Of course, we sometimes forget about serious injury. We tend to focus on the number of road deaths, maybe not taking into account people who have been injured. The National Rehabilitation Hospital on Rochestown Avenue is not too far from where I am. I know people there who have had life-changing injuries, which are very traumatic for them and their family members, loved ones, friends and so on.

We have discussed with the Commissioner, Deputy Commissioner Hilman, the Road Safety Authority and others many times that the four most common characteristics of accidents are younger people, weekends, night-time and rural roads. We have a lot of rural roads. With the best will in the world, we could probably quadruple or multiply the number of people in roads policing by ten and we would never cover every rural road.

Not to take away from everything An Garda Síochána is doing, I wonder what potential technological advances are available. Do we see technology in cars tracking drivers' behaviour and seeing what they are up to? I know some insurance companies have done that. Does that have a role to play in what An Garda Síochána is doing? With the best will in the world, gardaí cannot be everywhere all the time.

Mr. Drew Harris

As cars become more advanced, we are seeing innovations that the motor industry is considering. Certainly, the recent conference on road safety in Dublin covered a lot of what may be done. Part of this can be regulating speeds and passengers in the vehicle. Some vehicles will not proceed unless everybody is properly strapped in with a seatbelt.

For our part, a lot of the improvement in our road safety is concentrated on speed, for one. I know other nations in Europe have concentrated on speed in particular. I know we have the five lifesaver offences. There is particular concentration on speed in Scandinavian countries. Less speed means that the collisions are less severe in any case and perhaps more survivable.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach is right to highlight the issue of serious injury. Serious injury collisions have been diminishing since 2018 and so we are in the strange position of having fewer serious injuries but more fatalities. That is a consequence of speed, going by the statistics in terms of who has been killed on the roads and in what circumstances. Ms Hilman and I review every fatal road traffic collision. I receive a report on every fatal road traffic collision and have a good sense then of the driver behaviours.

More engineering in terms of vehicles would certainly help. We are looking at a substantial increase in the safety camera network in terms of static road safety cameras. I have asked Ms Hilman to work up a business case. We set a target of 100 additional road safety cameras, because we know that-----

That is going from about 55 to maybe 155.

Mr. Drew Harris

These are additional static cameras beyond the mobile safety cameras, so beyond the GoSafe system-----

How many static cameras are there now?

Ms Paula Hilman

Currently there are two, in the port tunnel and the M7.

Okay. By "camera", do you mean the two cameras-----

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes, they are the average speed cameras.

The intention is 100 more of them. That means going from two to maybe 102.

Ms Paula Hilman

It will be a mixture of average speed cameras and static cameras. With the average speed cameras in the port tunnel, we have a 99% compliance rate. That means it slows people down. That is what we want to achieve. If we slow people down, we will save lives. The M7 compliance rate is about 97%. We are ready with the final plans to roll out a further three average speed cameras in quarter 3 of this year. They are going to be on the N5 at Swinford, the N3 in the direction of Cootehill, and the N2 at Slane. They are going to go live in those locations in quarter 3 this year, around September.

Are these single static cameras rather than the average?

Ms Paula Hilman

They are three average speed cameras. We have a further nine static cameras.

Are these singles?

Ms Paula Hilman

These are singles that we will roll out before the end of this year. They will all be on roads with a speed limit of 100 km/h limit or less. That relates to what was said about rural roads. That is just the start of nine. When we chose those locations, there were multiple other locations that we could have chosen. However, that is our starting point. As the Commissioner said, he has asked me to start working on a further 100 cameras for next year as well. In summary, there are currently two average speed cameras

Plus three more to come.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes, three more to come, and a further nine, complemented by 55 GoSafe vans, a figure which is going to increase to 58 within the coming weeks. They are really important. The team that works in partnership with the supplier continually reviews where we have them. In regard to responding, when we had two fatalities on the N17 within a week, as well as having more gardaí on the road - the gardaí were aware of that road beforehand - we immediately started deploying some of the safety camera vans there. We were really responsive to what we were seeing on the roads and ensuring they were in the right locations.

Okay, I thank the witnesses for that. There will be many more cameras, and that is what is hoped for. For the information of people watching, does the revenue from that come back into An Garda Síochána to fund more road safety or does it go to the Courts Service? Where does it end up?

Ms Paula Hilman

It goes back into the Government, into the wider pot of money. It does not come back directly to us. However, from our perspective, success for us is having-----

-----less offences and less money?

Ms Paula Hilman

-----less offences actually.

It is not about the revenue.

Ms Paula Hilman

It is about having them in the right places to slow people down. It is about saving lives.

In regard to the vehicles, if younger drivers who are just starting to drive have a black box fitted, some insurance companies potentially will reduce insurance rates. Such initiatives seek to encourage younger drivers who are disproportionately impacted by this. It was brought to my attention yesterday that there are suppliers that supply devices that will silence seat belts if they are not put on. I hear the shop is no longer selling them. It is morally and ethically wrong. What is the right thing to do? The team is starting to look at that. One of the shops has certainly stopped it. However, these devices can be bought online. Will enforcement ever stop people who are that intent on not wearing their seat belts? We know wearing seat belts save lives. We encourage everyone to wear a seat belt because it will save lives.

I am giving myself little bit more time. Whatever I give myself, I will give the same to the others who are here. We will have enough time to cover everybody.

In regard to urban matters, I cycle in and out of here more often than not, but I am also a driver. I see a large amount of not orange light breaking but red light breaking. It is almost persistent and constant at many of the junctions that I see. It seems to be normal behaviour that is a given. Blocking yellow boxes is another thing I see. This morning, I saw on the Deansgrange cycle route Twitter feed a photo of a large lorry parked across the entire width of the brand-new Deansgrange two-way cycle lane as the driver made a delivery. You would not stop a lorry in the middle of the road and start doing deliveries, but it seems to be considered acceptable by couriers, van drivers, commercial drivers and others to park in cycle lanes. How much enforcement is there? It is not about revenue generation, but the extent of red light breaking I see is endemic. If a person starts breaking one rule, such as not wearing a seat belt or using a mobile phone, he or she is more likely to do other things. If they are caught for breaking red lights or blocking yellow boxes, maybe they will get a few penalty points and will watch their penalty points a bit more. I just do not see enough of that happening. There are endless demands on the time of An Garda Síochána but driver behaviour seems to be slacking off.

Mr. Drew Harris

In part that is why we have introduced the 30-minute operation. We want to make this a complete organisational effort, in effect. It is not our idea - we copied this initiative from elsewhere. In other jurisdictions it was successfully applied. This is precisely why we want local gardaí and community gardaí in the local regular units, those on the 24-7, to attend to more minor infringements through education, warning but also enforcement.

The second piece around bus lanes and breaking red lights should be dealt with in part by automated enforcement. That would be camera enforcement as well.

Is there any pathway to doing that?

Ms Paula Hilman

Certainly, yes. Under one of the actions in the Government road safety strategy, the NTA is looking at that and is leading on that project in terms of working on traffic signs, bus lanes and so forth. It is currently bringing that back to the partnership board. As the Commissioner said, it should be automated but we have offered to take on the back office function as part of a partnership approach. Everything we have outlined so far will be managed within An Garda Síochána. We manage all the back office functions. There is some partnership activity with local authorities about camera sites, but the actual management of the files and the fixed charge notices will be done internally. We have offered in the short term to get it up and running by assisting with the processing of tickets. In the longer term, we would like that to be automated but we do not want to wait for that because people are being killed on the roads. We have offered up the use of our current back office function at the fixed-charge penalty office in Thurles. We will take that work on until we get to where we want to go.

Recently we were approached by Irish Rail. We are collaborating with Irish Rail on a pilot in four locations for both speeding and breach of traffic lights at railway crossings. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, recently made an announcement on red light running cameras in Dublin. The NTA is working on that. To get it up and running quickly, if we can assist as a partner in this, we will.

The more automation there is of mundane tasks like cameras focusing on bus lanes, cycle lanes and red lights, the less need there is to take gardaí away from other crime duties or other parts of roads policing.

The Garda Commissioner referred to the 6,675 vehicles seized. Were they all seized for having no insurance or were there other reasons? What kind of vehicles are being seized, generally speaking? Is it cars or vans? Is it in rural or urban areas? Is it older vehicles? Why are they being seized? It seems that quite a lot of vehicles are seized.

Mr. Drew Harris

This year we have had seizures amounting to approximately 10,000 vehicles. That can be for having no insurance, no NCT or no tax, or the driver being an unaccompanied learner driver. That is a significant increase, probably driven by instances of no insurance.

What happens when they are seized? Can the owners get them back? Are they crushed or sold on the open market? What happens to a seized vehicle?

Ms Paula Hilman

It is a mix. They are held and then people can pay their fine. It can depend on the seizure time limits and it can depend on documents being produced. It just depends on the reason for the seizure.

Will the witnesses give the committee details - maybe not now - of what was seized, what happened to them ultimately and why they were seized. That would be useful.

Mr. Drew Harris

It is an important point because in part we should be concentrating on those who are dangerous by their behaviour on the roads. It is highly irresponsible to drive without insurance or an NCT or, indeed to be an unaccompanied learner driver on the roads.

Or to have no driver licence.

Mr. Drew Harris

Or to have no driver licence, that is correct. We do get some driver data but the more data we can get, the more effective we can be. We have seen this with the insurance data. The more data that we receive and that Garda members have in their hand with the means to access that data, the better. We can then make suitable interventions around disqualified drivers or those with no driving licence at all. Those are important. I emphasise them because there are life-endangering offences that, perhaps, may be overshadowed. When it comes to people who we know are dangerous when they are behind the wheel, obviously those who drive under the influence are, by definition, dangerous behind the wheel, but those who drive with no insurance or have no care as to the state of the vehicle also pose an actual danger, and we can see that in the causes of road traffic collisions. This is about actual physical intervention, having the information, and being able to make a detection at the scene and seize the vehicle. Once we have the vehicle the means by which they cause danger on the road is then gone. That is a very successful programme. We really want to emphasise this to our Garda members.

I thank Mr. Harris for that. It is important to reiterate that many fatalities and crashes involve two-car collisions. One driver may not be at fault in any way and is the victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and there was another driver who was misbehaving. Of course, road conditions are also a factor and there are other reasons crashes happen. We are not saying that everybody who has a crash is bad. Accidents do happen but the fewer of them we have and the better behaviour we have, the better for us all.

Mr. Drew Harris

The overall road safety strategy talks about mistakes leading to collisions but there are really reckless and dangerous behaviours that are leading to collisions. These are addressed through the road traffic legislation but it should be highlighted that people are making a choice. They are making an incredibly poor and reckless choice but they have made a choice, not a mistake. To drive under the influence of drink or drugs is a choice.

Not to wear a seat belt is a choice, too. I believe the figure we got is that 25% of fatalities were not wearing a seat belt. That is not that 25% of drivers are wearing seatbelts; it is 25% of fatalities. That is a staggering statistic. I will not take up any more time for now as I am conscious we have other members to come in. If there is a chance, I will come back in. I could probably talk for an hour on this. Most of us here could talk for an hour but we need to share the time. I thank Mr. Drew and Ms Hilman. I also thank every member of An Garda Síochána who is doing the work every day in road safety, and in all the other things they do.

I thank the Garda Commissioner and the assistant commissioner for coming in today. The first contribution focused on static cameras and the measures that are vitally important. I can attest personally to the success of the average speed camera in the Dublin Port tunnel, which got me a couple of points on my licence four years ago. It was a lesson well learned. It was twice in a week during the general election in 2020. They have naturally expired now. The cameras do work and it is good to see a business case being made for 100-plus static cameras. Is there any idea of what the cost would be for one new static camera?

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes, I have the cost here. We are also increasing the usage of our GoSafe vans. We are increasing those by 1,500 hours per month. We got some additional funding for that last year but for this year, from now until October 2025, that will cost us €5.1 million. This is to ensure we keep the GoSafe vans at a minimum of 9,000 hours a month.

The nine static cameras that we will introduce before the end of the year will cost €2.4 million. I will get that figure broken down. The three average speed cameras are approximately €1.5 million each so that will cost us about €4 million overall. This is to have them up and running and to maintain them over the period.

Would this be about €250,000 for one new static camera?

Mr. Drew Harris

It is roughly in that order.

Is this with installation and annual costs?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes. Again I will quote the road safety strategy, which says the cost of all road traffic collisions in Ireland in 2019 was conservatively estimated at €1.29 billion. Even if we take this as a financial piece, it is investing to save.

I am not coming from that point of view. I am just trying to get some detail on it. The Labour Party today brought, in a collaborative fashion, a motion on road safety to the Dáil. We are all trying to reduce road fatalities in whatever way we can. Not all responsibility, as we know, is on An Garda Síochána.

What is the overall number of Garda personnel in the roads policing unit at the moment?

Mr. Drew Harris

It is 623.

In 2009, it was 1,055.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

If we are to reach the target of adding 75 more per year, will the additional members be new recruits coming out of Templemore College or will they be taken from existing resources, or a combination?

Mr. Drew Harris

The student probational gardaí from Templemore are always assigned to normal regular duties in a station. Roads policing is a specialism. People apply and go through a competition to be assigned to roads policing. It is always more experienced gardaí who have served their time, and served their probation certainly, who are appointed to roads policing.

Okay. So it will have an impact on other services if we are taking them out to go into roads policing.

Mr. Drew Harris

With regard to the resources we have, obviously our recruitment competitions are ongoing. We have our passing out ceremonies every 11 weeks with that further injection of personnel into the organisation. It is then about the distribution of those gardaí. The difference between where we are now and where we were in 2009 is just the growth in the demand on gardaí, particularly around specialisms such as the armed support unit, cybercrime and protective service units. There has been a huge increase in the variety of crimes reported to us and, therefore, our response. The figure of 623 in roads policing, and hopefully increasing that to 700 by end of year, is where we would be over a ten-year average. We can look back to 2009 but it was a very different policing scenario that we were managing then.

How many of the 623 are on active suspension at the moment?

Mr. Drew Harris

As with any unit within An Garda Síochána, they, too, carry their extractions. I am au fait with the suspensions. A very small number of the suspensions relate to roads policing personnel. Beyond that, there are extractions for training, annual leave and sick leave absences. As an organisation, that runs at approximately 4% and must be reported every month. That is actually a very positive figure, given the nature of duties undertaken.

The average is 4%----

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

-----and when it comes to those 623 members, there is nothing extraordinary, such as a rate of 10% ,11%, 12% or anything like that?

Mr. Drew Harris

No.

Okay.

Are the 30 minutes of high-visibility roads policing per shift calculated as occurring at the roadside?

Mr. Drew Harris

We have left this open to local discretion to a degree. We are policing from rural communities into villages and small towns and then into the cities. We had a particular emphasis on local information - there are local analysts - but also accident black spots, which are places of particular danger. When Assistant Commissioner Hilman put out further guidance in respect of this instruction, we emphasised, for instance, opening and closing times for schools and other places at which there would be a risk of collision. We have left it to local discretion. We have emphasised that this is not just about the numbers game of enforcement; it is about visibility, an element of engagement and education and the presence of officers as well. It is active, operational duty.

Is the Commissioner saying that it would not necessarily involve holding a speed gun or swabbing someone's mouth and that it could involve walking past a school gate?

Mr. Drew Harris

I am a little more active in terms of our stopping traffic and checking-----

I did not intend for that to sound disparaging, but it would it be something of that nature.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes. There is a wide range of road traffic legislation to enforce. Just this week, we have issued small gauges for the checking of tyre depth, for instance.

Ms Paula Hilman

Some 8,000.

Mr. Drew Harris

Sorry, 8,000 of those will be issued tomorrow. These gauges will then allow gardaí to examine road tyre depth and issue fixed penalty notices, if appropriate.

Many existing and important Garda duties, such as visibility in and around towns, schools, etc., are being carried out but could now be chalked down to ticking the 30-minute box for high-visibility roads policing. Does the Commissioner accept that there was an impression absorbed by the public this policing would include tackling the four killer behaviours by means of the use of speed guns and carrying out drug and alcohol tests?

Mr. Drew Harris

In part, this was to make sure that every uniformed member of the organisation is engaged in roads policing. It is also to make it clear to them that they are mandated to do this work. In other words, no matter what their duties are, this is part of their day's work. For those in the regular unit responding to calls, that is a huge workload, particularly depending on their stations. Those involved in community policing have all sorts of duties that they engage in. By mandating this and making it clear to every divisional officer what is required, ensured that this type of policing would happen as much as possible. Obviously, the exigencies of duty depend on whether gardaí can actually take part. However, it has been mandated by myself and the assistant commissioner through the chief superintendents. Members of the force are actively engaging in this activity. It has been well received and is popular, because gardaí can see the difference they are making in terms of intervention, education and enforcement.

I thank the-----

Ms Paula Hilman

It is important the focus is on outcomes, and rightly so. The outcome may not always be a fixed charge notice. That is where the difference is. We talk about numbers, but the technology that our members have in 2024 and that roads policing members have needs to be highlighted. We see the number of times our members are checking people on their phones or whether they have committed offences previously. There may not always be a fixed charge notice, but officers are checking that a person is safe to drive or has not been not disqualified. We are really seeing the benefit of that from the legislation that was introduced in the context of insurance data being shared with us, which will be formally launched at the end of the month. That has taken a number of years. I acknowledge and pay tribute to the Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland, MIBI, which created the Irish motor insurance database, which gives us live access to private car owners. We will have fleets going forward.

As the Commissioner outlined earlier, we have seized 6,500 vehicles being driven on Irish roads without insurance since the beginning of the year as a result of our having ready access to that data. The more we can do that, the better. We have data from transport regarding driving licences, but what we know is that someone holds a driving licence. That is it. We do not know what category the licence is, what type of licence or what categories of vehicles they are entitled to drive. We know whether they are disqualified or not. That is it. We do not know how many points they have. Giving us full access to the national driver vehicle file will enable us to have more live information about those high-risk drivers on Irish roads. We are really seeing the benefits.

We have rolled out ANPR to all roads policing members. Since April, all roads policing members have ANPR on their mobile devices and in 120 of their vehicles. The more we can do this in order that we are really focusing on those drivers who present the highest risk, the better.

I thank the assistant commissioner.

I thank Deputy Smith. Deputy Kenny is our next contributor.

I thank the Chair and I thank the Commissioner for his opening statement and his engagement on what is a very important and critical issue for so many people . As was stated, there have been 75 deaths on the roads so far this year and many people have been injured. We all recognise there are multiple factors involved in how we can tackle this problem. Enforcement is a part of it, but it is not all of it. We need to acknowledge that. However, we want to focus on that aspect in light of the fact that the representatives from An Garda Síochána are before us today.

The Commissioner mentioned that an additional 75 gardaí will be recruited to the road policing unit this year and that the competitions in this regard were advertised in the north-west, eastern and southern regions. He also mentioned that allocations to roads policing units in the Dublin region have already commenced. When will these additional appointments be made? Has An Garda Síochána had the level of interest it would have expected in respect of the competitions advertised?

Ms Paula Hilman

The advertisements relating the competitions went out on 30 April 2024. We had a meeting about this yesterday in order to see how matters are progressing. We are hearing that there is good interest. We have reduced the timeframes for this. We have to give a period to allow people to apply and fill in the necessary forms, etc. Our aim is to have all the interviews completed by June or July, certainly before the holiday period, because we know that things can start to slow down in August. We aim to do that. When the lists are available, it will up to the divisional officers at that point. Competitions are being overseen nationally by ourselves in the National Roads Policing Bureau and held regionally. They relate to sergeant and garda rank. Officers will be appointed on a divisional basis. The divisional officers will have the list of candidates who have met the standard and passed the interview process. It will be for them to appoint officers in line with the vacancies they have. Each division knows the vacancies it has. As the Commissioner said, there was no reduction. We did not have the overall headcount to put people in. The vacancies exist. As people are allocated to those divisions from the college and via internal transfers, that will allow officers to be appointed to roads policing. That is how it will work. We should start seeing some appointments immediately and then appointments will continue to be made throughout the year. It will be dependent on recruitment and on people coming in to allow those who have been successful in the competition for roads policing to be appointed. The panel relating to the competition will remain valid for two years. Were we not to have enough, we will be agile and advertise again. We will see how many apply. Hopefully, we should get enough applicants to fill our vacancies.

Is that to meet the additional numbers the force is seeking? Obviously, a number of gardaí will retire as well. When the 75 recruits come in, how many corresponding officers will be lost to retirement or whatever? Is An Garda Síochána running to stand still?

Mr. Drew Harris

No, we hope not. Individuals may leave the organisation through retirement or resignation. In addition, some officers may be successful in other competitions or may be promoted.

That is always an element. We have a block of over 600 gardaí. There is always flux in terms of movement. We believe we will see actual growth of 75 in the numbers this year, in line with the commitment we have made into 2025. In effect, we have committed to 150 appointments which will outstrip what we reasonably think will be the cessations and the other movement in a body of that number in the organisation.

Another issue I want to raise in this regard is the duties and functions of the road policing unit. Are there particular parts of roads that would be seen as danger areas even though there may not have been a collision, or numerous collisions, there? We are often contacted by people in communities who say there are regular near misses and issues on a particular stretch of road. When we go to the local authority, it sends us to Transport Infrastructure Ireland, which says that the stretch of road in question does not meet the criteria because there have not been enough collisions there. We should not be waiting until after a collision has taken place before we deal with these issues. A road policing unit should have foresight. Is there a role for the road policing unit to advise local authorities to deal with issues prior to collisions happening?

Ms Paula Hilman

Undoubtedly. That is a space we want to work in as well. Some of the work we are doing with our members involves allocating equipment and making sure they have the right equipment to look at the speed profiles of particular roads. We also use GoSafe vans to create a profile, get an understanding of speeds and build up knowledge of localities. As the Commissioner outlined, we have asked members to use their local knowledge when doing the 30 minutes of high-visibility policing. We use analysis and data, but we balance that with local knowledge, which is really important. We introduced that about a year and a half ago. We asked divisional officers their views on where they thought the GoSafe vans should be allocated. Prior to that, such allocations had always been made on the basis of data concerning fatal and serious injuries. We introduced a degree of subjectivity. It is not just about road policing; equally, we find that some of this information comes in initially through community gardaí. On foot of that, the community gardaí might ask the road policing unit to undertake certain tasks. The road policing unit and community gardaí are equally involved in this week's activities as part of national cycling week. They work very well together in these areas.

Is there a way of making formal recommendations or is it merely a case of a conversation taking place?

Ms Paula Hilman

We all know that when the right person is involved, things get done but that person sometimes leaves. Under the Government road safety strategy, each local authority has to establish a road safety working together group. That may be a real conduit at local level to feed that information in.

Do roads policing gardaí sit on that group?

Ms Paula Hilman

They do, yes.

Are those groups established in each local authority?

Ms Paula Hilman

The last I heard was that there are three local authorities in which they have not been established. They are certainly established in the majority of local authority areas.

Okay. I would like to mention another issue that has come up. Every time there is an incident on the roads, we hear gardaí appealing for dashcam footage to be uploaded or sent to them. There are two sides to that. First, the number of Garda vehicles that have dashcams is an issue. I know that the new vehicles which are being purchased have dashcams. Is any effort being made to equip existing vehicles with this technology? Second, I understand that the portal that was meant to be set up to enable dashcam footage to be uploaded is not yet functional. Do we have an update on when that will happen?

Mr. Drew Harris

We want to receive dashcam and GoPro-type footage from the public, not just from drivers but from pedal cyclists as well. The digital elements management legislation, which will enable that, is before the Oireachtas presently. I think we will see that enacted soon. That will allow us to receive information and to put in place a storage facility of a criminal justice standard. Therefore, we will be able to move forward in terms of those investigations. We are in the process of having dashcam-type footage available from road policing vehicles. Naturally, we equip our vehicles a little better in terms of the quality and resolution of the cameras. That is an element around our road policing fleet that is integral in the further development of the system.

Ms Paula Hilman

We are asked about the portal frequently. If we do not have a digital evidence management system, we cannot have that portal. We need that system. As the Commissioner said, it is part of the digital Bill. That will give us the capacity to receive and upload multiple reports coming in through various means, whether from people's phones or GoPros. It will be 2026 before the portal is live. In the intervening period, we will take a different approach to traffic watch, which we plan to update. We are committed to having the portal up. We hear about this from cyclist lobbies, which we meet regularly. They are understandably very anxious to have the portal up and running. Our chief information officer has met with them and has explained how the system needs to work. Many other police services we are compared to have a digital evidence management system, but we do not. It will be announced shortly that in the intervening period between now and the portal being established, we will be moving to an online reporting system. This will not be a portal but it is on our journey towards a portal. Traffic watch is currently a telephone call service. The public will be informed of these changes through a communications campaign. People will be able to report through our website as a stepping stone. We know it is not the portal but it is showing our commitment to what we can keep doing over the next year and a half, with our eye remaining focused on getting us to the portal.

Are there any issues with footage like that being used as evidence? Could there be difficulties around that?

Ms Paula Hilman

It is important to understand that when people give us their footage, we still need a statement from them and we still need to interact with them. We need their co-operation in bringing a prosecution. People hand over footage to us on an individual basis. We do not have the portal but people can report anything to us and provide us with the video footage they have. To reiterate, we still need a statement to demonstrate continuity of evidence and how that evidence came about.

Ms Hilman mentioned the expansion of hours for the GoSafe vans. That is fine, but I have always regarded them as one-trick ponies, unfortunately. They watch one thing and that is speed whereas a member of An Garda Síochána monitoring traffic monitors everything. If there are people moving drugs, travelling in a stolen car, stealing farm machinery or up to anything, gardaí can monitor that. I always felt it was a kind of privatisation of the service. Although there is a role for that, unfortunately in the last decade the main traffic-monitoring function has gone to GoSafe vans rather than to An Garda Síochána. The reduction in road policing numbers is evidence of that. When Ms Hilman says that road policing numbers are going to go up, that is very welcome.

Reference has been made to the 30 minutes that each member is expected to spend on road policing duties. When I speak to members of An Garda Síochána on the ground, they tell me they are practically doing that anyway. In a real situation, the vast majority of gardaí are doing a certain amount of road policing as part of their daily functions. Perhaps there needs to be more emphasis on it - that is not a problem - but we need to get to a situation where we have more gardaí monitoring traffic for all the reasons that have been mentioned, including safety on the road.

Speed cameras and static cameras have been mentioned. Static cameras will only work on motorways where there are a limited number of places where cars can go on and off the road. Motorway traffic generally moves from point A to point B. However, 70% of our collisions are happening on back roads and rural roads, where those kinds of camera systems cannot be deployed.

Is there an issue there? I wonder because so many of the collisions happening where people are distracted while driving or intoxicated while driving. Is there technology that can be used? I think in other jurisdictions there is technology used, certainly with fleet vehicles like trucks, and there is an actual camera in the cab. It monitors the driver and sends an alert if they are doing something wrong like using a mobile phone. Are there any thoughts of going that direction?

Ms Paula Hilman

Certainly, in terms of commercial cabs and commercial drivers, one of the actions under the road safety strategy is about introducing the interlock system where they have to blow into something to check there is no alcohol or drugs in their system before they start to drive. That is currently being worked on.

The Department of Transport and the Department of Justice are currently looking together at what, if any, legislative changes need to be considered in relation to using safety cameras for mobile phone use and seat belt use. Currently, they have that capability but they are not used for that. That is actively being discussed and was discussed further at our last meeting with the Taoiseach and the two Ministers. Certainly, that is a very active piece of work to see if we can use our safety cameras for those two additional offences.

Garda members and GoSafe vans were mentioned. We detect roughly 14 people an hour speeding. Four of those are caught by Garda members, while ten are caught by the vans. On national slowdown day in April, where we had targeted enforcement, two out of three detections were made by gardaí. Over 500 were caught by gardaí while over 250 were caught by GoSafe vans. It depends on the operation. It is very much about working together with those vans. I think there is great opportunity here, especially for distracted driving. We hear about distracted driving regularly. That is why the Commissioner was asked about it.

We are also looking at how we extend our unmarked fleet, but that also balances against visibility. There is now some unmarked fleet but we are going to increase the number of unmarked police vehicles. I see people, when I am driving home in the evening, on their mobile phones. People see the livery car coming down the street and they can stop and drop the phone. It is how we have that balance of the high visibility marked car but some unmarked cars in our roads policing fleet as well. We are looking at how we can extend that.

I thank the Chair. I would like to welcome the Commissioner to the committee and thank him for his presentation, which is comprehensive and gives us an update on the progress regarding enforcement measures. I represent Tipperary and we had the unfortunate and tragic situation where Tipperary suffered the highest number of road fatalities last year. Obviously, involved in that was personal and family loss and the trauma, grief and suffering that went with it. I am very conscious that safety on our roads across Tipperary and the country is a major concern.

I gave a public welcome to the decision that each member of the Garda would spend 30 minutes per shift on road policing. I think it gave a sense of reassurance that the gardaí were stepping up activity to keep motorists safe. I can certainly say that I have seen, both in Tipperary and on the motorway on which I travel regularly, a far greater and noticeable Garda presence.

The statistics and the enforcement measures have already been discussed here and the answers have been given. An issue I would like to raise with the Commissioner is adequate and reliable transport for Garda members. It is absolutely crucial. A large number of Garda vehicles are approaching or have already passed their sell by date. I am aware of several instances across the Tipperary division, including the Thurles division, where vehicles are simply not fit for purpose. This is across the county and indeed across the country because it is a national problem. Cars and vans are out of commission to such an extent that at times gardaí do not have the vehicles to respond to incidents.

Who is responsible for the fleet of Garda vehicles? It is not cost effective to send a clapped-out car or cars that have extended mileage to a garage and spend weeks on end in the garage. When they come back, there is a reoccurrence of the same breakdown. It is not cost effective to keep old cars on the road. It is unfair to the Garda members who are driving these vehicles. Who manages the fleet? Is it directly from the Garda budget? If it is, is the budget sufficient to replace the vehicles that need to be replaced?

I would also like today, as it is a public forum, to convey our thanks and our appreciation to the members of An Garda Síochána who strive everyday to protect our lives, protect our communities and protect our property. I meet gardaí on a regular basis and we need to recognise that the work of a garda is becoming more demanding, more difficult and indeed more dangerous. As a committee and as a Government, we need to give them practical support. They need proper terms and conditions of employment and appropriate terms and conditions for the demanding task that they carry out on our behalf.

I will now convey to the Commissioner the views I hear on the ground from the gardaí, both in the traffic corps and the general membership of the Garda. A lot of gardaí feel they are stymied with bureaucracy, reporting and paperwork. They also feel that oversight of gardaí has increased to such an extent that there is more oversight of Garda members than there is of the criminals who they are trying to catch.

The Commissioner and assistant commissioner need to look at the disciplinary process. It is extremely protracted, to the extent that it is unfair to individuals who are under investigation. I would like to know what is their view on the level of the oversight? Is it needed to the extent that we have? I would also like to know their views on the disproportionate time lapse between an inquiry starting and its conclusions.

Finally, I have heard from several gardaí over the last four to five years. Since the system in HR was civilianised, there is no effort made to look after the members of the force who have genuine hardship concerns. A Garda member from my county may have a wife at home who is ill with cancer and the garda must commute, the system seems to have become very rigid and there is no flexibility. How is that process working? What role does the chief in the division have? What role has the Garda sergeant or the superintendent in the Garda station? I do not believe a garda should be transferred for frivolous reasons. However, there are cases where it is manifestly obvious that the garda should be supported and I ask that An Garda Síochána be more compassionate in that regard. I thank the witnesses.

Mr. Drew Harris

I thank the Deputy. In regard to his first point in respect of vehicles, we now have the largest fleet we have ever had. There are over 3,000 vehicles and Assistant Commissioner Hilman chairs the fleet advisory board. With any large fleet, and I think we operate one of the largest fleets in the country, it takes time to refresh that but that is certainly ongoing. We are given a capital programme every year to, in effect, replace and refresh the Garda fleet. It has expanded significantly over the last five years.

I think the detail in terms of the size of the fleet, the capital expenditure and the efficiencies that have been driven out of the fleet in regard to servicing the vehicles, etc., might be worthy of a written answer. There is a huge amount in that. We have professional fleet managers who look after the fleet.

I see the rigor with which they go about their business, particularly servicing, to make sure that work is properly and quickly done. We are a big customer and a priority customer as well. We do not tolerate long waits for vehicles easily either. We realise, and certainly fleet managers realise, that a Garda vehicle is of no use sitting and waiting for parts or for work to be done. Those vehicles of use are out on the road, so on the specific point the Deputy raised in respect of Tipperary, I will pursue that through the regional assistant commissioner because genuinely, no division should be short of vehicles. We have made huge strides in terms of provision of vehicles and hopefully I can find a resolution to the particular issues that have been raised there. In terms of expenditure, it does relate to this because it relates to the roads policing expenditure and to the quality of the vehicles that we give Garda members and the variety of our fleet. One of the innovations that we are set to introduce in the next few weeks is an unmarked HGV cab from an articulated set in order that we can in effect see into lorry cabs and look down on motorists. That is for the detection of distracted driving.

On bureaucracy and oversight, we have done a huge amount of work with the representative bodies in respect of new systems that we have brought in. The investigation management system was an area of particular focus and we have been through a whole set of iterations around working groups with very wide and extensive consultation. It is more the fear of the investigation management system now than the application of it. There are further improvements and innovations that will occur this year, a lot of it driven by suggestions made by the representative bodies and we are very attuned to their concerns. In respect of oversight, I recognise the length of time that the investigations take. Often there is a crime investigation in the first place which we report to the DPP and those processes are long before a criminal justice process may work its whole way through and then a subsequent investigation. That does not only engage ourselves but also obviously engages the Garda ombudsman. For our part within, we started a programme to make sure that these investigations we are responsible for are dealt with with all expedition in order that decisions can be quickly made and at least the files are submitted to the DPP as quickly as possible or that our own disciplining process then engages quickly.

The new Bill for An Garda Síochána introduces a new discipline and performance regime. We want to move what is now presently discipline, a good deal of which should actually sit in the performance arena, where in effect, a work plan can be drawn up to improve on performance or improve on behaviour and quickly deal with matters at a local level, rather than long-term complaints hanging over individuals. Regrettably, a small number of members of An Garda Síochána, at times breach the criminal code and those are serious investigations that take their time and require a report to the DPP. I have asked that those that I have control of are expedited as quickly as possible.

In terms of the care and well-being of our staff, we put a huge amount into this in terms of the support that we can provide for Garda members and Garda staff. As the Deputy has mentioned, we are very conscious of the difficult duties that they are asked to undertake. Attending to a fatal or serious injury road traffic collision is an awful experience and one which all Garda members regrettably have had the scarring experience of dealing with. We recognise the impact of this area and other traumatic areas that gardaí have to deal with. We have mandatory psychological assessments for those who are constantly dealing with difficult situations, including scenes of crime and those dealing with trauma, particularly child abuse images or indeed serious sexual assault allegations. As for the specific cases the Deputy has raised, we look to the divisional officers to try to resolve them locally. We emphasise the needs of an individual in terms of getting him or her through what may be a short or medium-term difficulty - sometimes it is a family tragedy or a chronic illness - and we do our best to try to meet those requirements. I point to the amount of welfare supports we have put in place in this regard. I do not know of the specific cases the Deputy refers to but obviously there are always individual cases. Perhaps we can get in contact afterwards to see whether there are specific cases I can look into myself because we want to seem to be and to act as an organisation that looks after the welfare of our members.

I thank the Commissioner and Deputy Lowry. Deputy Crowe can go ahead.

I thank Commissioner Harris and Assistant Commissioner Hilman for being here this afternoon. I have quite a few questions, which I might go through quickly in order that we might get a maximum amount of responses. In the aftermath of the Dublin riots, there was a national debate about whether the gardaí were allowed to use force or not. The Commissioner came out very quickly and explained that-----

It must be road safety-related.

Is it road safety-related?

It 100% is. If the Chair will let me finish the question, it makes perfect sense. Can the clock be started again?

Do not worry, I will give extra time.

In the aftermath of the Dublin riots, the Commissioner moved very quickly to clarify that An Garda Síochána representatives were allowed to use reasonable force when carrying out their duties. In respect of road policing, can similar reassurances be given to rank-and-file guards that go in behind the wheel and put on the siren and the beacon? Can they too use reasonable action when they are in that vehicle? Just as many guards felt there was a huge amount of clarity required for street policing, a lot of rank-and-file guards who speak to us as Oireachtas representatives say they need something from the top stating they can give pursuit at all times if it is in the interests of public safety.

Mr. Drew Harris

I welcome the opportunity to clarify this. We recently signed off on a policy in respect of what is known as a stinger, that is, a vehicle incapacity device, and that is to be followed shortly by a new policy in respect of pursuit. We emphasise the duties set out presently, as they are in the Garda Síochána Act, and ultimately our responsibility to prevent and to detect crime and regarding the preservation of life. At times, this requires Garda members to use, in effect, coercive powers and to be in pursuit situations. Consequently, we want to be clear to Garda members that they have the support of the organisation and me in terms of their actions and proactive actions in fulfilling our functions as set out in the Garda Síochána Act. As I have mentioned, at times that involves the use of coercive authority and the authorities provided to us by the State to protect the citizens of this State.

I thank the Commissioner. When people turn on Channel 4, Sky One at night time, there are police shows from other countries and other jurisdictions where they seem to be able to exercise an awful lot of force to bring a vehicle to a stop to keep the public safe. While I will not comment on any case because we are not the justice committee here nor would it be right to comment on cases, I would like to think that if I was driving along a dual carriage way or motorway with my family and if a car was going the opposite way, that the guards would be fully empowered in that moment to take whatever intervening action needed. In all realms of An Garda Síochána, full clarity is needed. If a guard has not completed the blue beacon course - I do not have the correct module name of that course in Templemore - and if he or she sees something awry going on in the community that is illegal or illicit, is that guard allowed to tear after that vehicle regardless of whether he or she has completed that course and apprehend it if they can?

Mr. Drew Harris

The overriding duty is set out in legislation and that overriding duty is the prevention and detection of crime, preservation of life and preservation of the peace. That legislation takes priority and there is an obligation. This is not an opt-in or opt-out; there is an obligation on Garda members to act to protect the community. That is the overriding-----

Is completing a blue beacon course a requirement to pursue a vehicle?

Ms Paula Hilman

Currently, we do not have that pursuit policy.

One of things we are doing is listening to our members in the context of the reassurances and the questions the Deputy has asked today. We currently have a stopping policy but, as the Commissioner referenced earlier, it will be called pursuit policy. It will provide that clarity. Again, it will enable us to support members in the context of public safety, exceptional circumstances and our obligations to keep people safe. We do say that they should drive within their capabilities, of course. I do not think anybody would expect more and we all have different levels. We have introduced a course but we will not be able to train everybody at any given point. That said, the percentage trained is relative to the size of the country. If our members see something like that happening, what does the public expect us to do? It will bring back clarity in terms of saying they are able to do that.

In the absence of this policy, the law that the Commissioner refers to supersedes everything at the moment. It is about keeping the public safe. Blue beacon course or not, a garda can pursue someone if it is in the interests of public safety.

Mr. Drew Harris

Like every action a Garda member may have to take, he or she has to be able to explain the rationale for engaging particular powers at any particular time. It is about the decision-making process that gardaí go through. There are duties placed on the organisation and, therefore, on the members of An Garda Síochána. Those duties include the prevention and detection of crime, preservation of life, and keeping the peace. Those are a heavy responsibility and are not opt-in or opt-out. It may be that it is appropriate to follow at a distance but to inform the control room so that further down the road a checkpoint or a vehicle-stopping device can be put in place. It is not about ignoring the situation. At all times, proactive action is required.

It just seems to me that we have the law and law enforcement but there is a middle layer from Garda headquarters. I am specifically referring, on this occasion, to scrambler bikes. A diktat went out from Garda headquarters in Phoenix Park. We have the law which provides for the apprehension, confiscation and removal of these bikes and we have gardaí wanting to enforce it but in the middle, it is my understanding that a direction came from the Phoenix Park to the effect that gardaí should not pursue anyone on a scrambler bike who is not wearing a helmet. The reality is that in some cases, it is children on scrambler bikes messing around on green open spaces but very often, as gardaí will attest, these bikes are being used as drug mules. They are drug mules, effectively. Those on the bikes know that if they are not wearing a helmet, gardaí will not chase them. They can bring drugs down along riverbanks and in through alleyways that a car cannot get down. They can get in and out quickly and nobody will follow them. They act with impunity. Has An Garda Síochána headquarters said that, regardless of what the law says, this is what we are going to do? Has it said that gardaí should not pursue them?

Mr. Drew Harris

No. In terms of vehicle-stopping devices and pursuit, there were various drafts of the policy. When it actually came to the senior leadership team, which includes myself, we were not content with that. Some of the language in that had been shared through a consultation process and that started this rumour around gardaí not doing this and that. Some of that was in the initial drafts but that has been expunged now. We cannot possibly put down a general provision that gardaí are "never" to do this or that. Gardaí have to make the assessment and it could be entirely appropriate to pursue a motorbike. That said, it must be recognised, as it is in the policy, that the pursuit of a motorbike brings additional risks.

In terms of the legislative process in the Oireachtas, we continue to update road traffic Acts, penalty point regulations and so on. Things continually evolve and change. Has Garda training changed to match those changes? I refer specifically to penalty points. Of course, An Garda Síochána gets updated on changes to same. When gardaí were being trained in Templemore college they were always taught about the principle of discretion. Discretion is very open ended. Has the whole idea of discretion been defined in any way? If someone is going to the maternity hospital, for example, to drop a wife or partner off, can a garda use discretion if he or she sees fit and not apply penalty points? Has An Garda Síochána updated that discretion criteria or is it on a whim?

I ask that Deputy Kenny take the Chair briefly because I must go to the Seanad for a vote.

Deputy Martin Kenny took the Chair.

Mr. Drew Harris

I will address that question by pointing to the first week of the training that garda recruits undertake, which includes an element of training on the application of discretion. That is in their first week in Templemore.

I have seen the shot of the textbook and it is a very short paragraph. It lacks an awful lot of definition. A paragraph does not say everything but it looked to be quite open-ended. That is what I would always have seen discretion to be. Discretion is open-ended. A referee on a sports field has a degree of discretion. He or she has a rule book and then there is a little bit of discretion. An Garda Síochána members are passing out from Templemore, being posted to stations around the country and being told that these are the laws of Ireland, this is how they are empowered to enforce them but that they have an element of discretion when it comes to the road traffic Acts. There is an absolute need for clarity on that but such clarity has been lacking. Discretion probably needs to be removed at this point or else book-ended by a definition because unfortunately, it has led to a lot of people facing disciplinary action. I was a teacher previously. If I was told one thing in college and I practised that when I was teaching, what wrong was I doing? I would say the same principle would apply in An Garda Síochána. If gardaí are told to exercise discretion and they exercise it in their role and justify it, what wrong are they doing? That does not equate to a sensible approach.

Mr. Drew Harris

As in any decision-making, if the decision can be properly justified and explained, then there is no issue.

There is an issue if someone is suspended for three years or more.

Mr. Drew Harris

The Deputy is now referring to a specific case that I cannot get into.

I will leave it at that. Finally, we had a national debate on the airwaves this morning about e-scooters. Given that many youngsters now have e-bikes and faster ways of getting around, will An Garda Síochána be seeking an update of the Garda bike fleet to include e-bikes, e-scooters and more modern ways of moving around? When one goes to the US, one sees police officers on segues. They have nice, swift and modern ways of pursuing people down streets. Is An Garda Síochána seeking any new equipment like that? In terms of new technology, do we need to get to a point where dashcams become compulsory for all vehicles in the country?

Mr. Drew Harris

In respect of our fleet, we are engaging in terms of e-bikes rather than e-scooters or segues. We have also upgraded our bicycle fleet with electric bikes and part-electric-powered bikes. We have moved on that.

In respect of the new legislation, obviously there is an information programme and we are part of that. Our approach to that in the first instance will be to engage and educate. In respect of dashcams in all vehicles, that has been introduced in some jurisdictions already but I am not entirely sure what impact it has had overall. It is certainly worth considering because it does, in effect, give a record of a collision and can help to speed up the process, whether that is a prosecution or a subsequent civil action. For our part, the more information we have about the circumstances of a collision, the more we can do in terms of prevention and where our focus should be.

I thank the Garda Commissioner for his presentation. I want to talk about the round figures. In 2009 there were 1,055 members in the roads policing unit and that figure now stands at 623. The population of Ireland has increased by more than 600,000 in that period. According to the RSA, there has been a 20% increase, year-on-year, in the number of drivers on the road and possibly the same increase in the number of vehicles on the road, although the data is not perfect in that regard. We also have had a 20% increase, year on year, in fatalities on the road and in terms of collisions, for every fatality there are approximately nine casualties. The Garda Commissioner mentioned that policing is in a different place and that we are operating a different model of policing.

The use of technology and how we can improve on that was referenced but, even in the example of the technology used on the go-slow day, it seems very clear that a garda on the road is far superior to any technological fix. We also hear that the single most important thing is the fear of getting caught. That fear is always greater if an individual garda is present. The numbers do not add up. It does not make sense to me how we can have such a relative decrease in the number of gardaí in the roads policing unit. I ask the witnesses to speak to that. My concern is that ten years down the road this pattern will continue and we will not have a fix for it. There seems to be a real problem with the visibility of gardaí on the roads. I am not sure what the representatives said addresses that.

Mr. Drew Harris

I will point to my earlier answer. The Deputy heard what I said about where we are now compared with 2009, 15 years ago, and our current number of 623, which is relatively static compared with the past ten years. It is perhaps somewhat lower than the average but is relatively static. We recognise the importance of the roads policing unit but also, in looking at what other jurisdictions have done, what else we might do. That is why we introduced the 30 minutes of road safety policing per shift. We made that mandatory. As the Deputy said, the impact that brings is around visibility, leading on to prevention, education and enforcement. Our figures from March compared with the first four weeks of the 30 minutes requirement demonstrate the lift in that regard.

The Deputy is also correct about the national go-slow day. We moved from an average of approximately 150 detections a day to more than 500. Policing and the actions of members of An Garda Síochána make a difference. The responsibility I have is to manage the whole resources of An Garda Síochána against the multifaceted and complex demands placed upon us. I recognise and agree with what the Deputy said about population growth. That is why I am mandated to grow the organisation to 15,000, but that needs to be reassessed as we get closer to that figure. I believe we would still be too short against all the demands.

If the Garda got to 15,000 members, where would Mr. Harris like to see the number in the roads policing unit at that stage? That unit currently has 623 members plus 75, and, hopefully, will have another 75.

Mr. Drew Harris

That would then sit against the overall demands. A rising tide will lift all ships. We want to see commensurate growth in roads policing. When I talked to people in roads policing in 2009, a lot of their work was more around traffic management and helping traffic to keep moving as opposed to enforcement. That was visibility, which probably changed driver behaviour, but our road fatalities in 2009 were a good deal higher than they are at present. Beyond that, as we grow to 15,000, many areas need further investment in terms of additional personnel. We would have to do an exercise within the organisation on incremental growth, not just in roads policing but also in other areas.

I will raise an issue that is very relevant to the area where I live. It may be slightly off-topic but I hope Mr. Harris will give me some insight into it. I am from County Meath. I sit on the joint policing committee there. A major bone of contention is the number of gardaí in the county. It is the issue of resource allocation, how it is done and why County Meath fares so poorly. It is documented that it has the lowest number of gardaí per head of population. There is a very significant difference between the top and bottom of that scale. How are allocations made? My understanding is there is a resource allocation model that depends on PULSE data and historical strength. That is problematic in the sense that what people have they hold and those who are disadvantaged are permanently disadvantaged. What is that allocation model? How does it relate to roads policing? Is it under review? Is there acknowledgement that some counties have very significant population growth, with the potential for demand for Garda services and, therefore, a disproportionate need for increased numbers?

Mr. Drew Harris

The additional management information I have beyond what the Deputy has been informed about, and he is well informed about the formula applied to this, is that GardaSAFE, our new system of call management introduced throughout the country in November last year, gives us far greater scope in respect of demand. In addition, we have geographic areas that are more rural, where there is less demand and genuinely far fewer calls for members of An Garda Síochána. We particularly look to the counties surrounding Dublin, and Meath is not unique in this, and the growth of the population residing there. We also have to look at the policing demand placed on An Garda Síochána by that community, while at the same time maintaining our presence, in rural areas in particular, where there is less demand but a huge amount of reassurance is given by the community policing that is undertaken.

In effect, we are running almost three different models in respect of rural areas, major towns and growing villages, in addition to urban areas. That is complex. Again, our first priority is the answering of calls and putting people out 24-7 so there is an immediate response to incidents and emergencies. That is the first thing I need to look to that, very often, does not get mentioned. My first responsibility is filling patrol cars so that we can successfully and with sufficient numbers patrol 24-7 to render assistance and respond to calls for service. Beyond that, we want to build up the specialist services, which provide support to that function. That is the overall direction of the organisation. All growth of the organisation is very welcome in easing resourcing pressures right across.

I thank the Commissioner for his response. He will appreciate that there is huge interest in County Meath in this. Across the political spectrum, there is forensic knowledge of recruits and where they are going. He will appreciate that.

The issue of databases talking to each other comes up regularly enough. The national driver vehicle file was mentioned. It was said the Garda does not have access to that. It always struck me-----

Mr. Drew Harris

We do not have access to the full file. We have partial access to the insurance data, which is very useful, as seen by the number of seizures of vehicles that had no insurance, and will improve when we get access to, in effect, fleet insurance information. We have had full access to that data since November and in effect have doubled the seizure of vehicles that are uninsured. That makes a very significant contribution to road safety and also to tackling crime. It takes run-arounds and vehicles that are available to criminals off the streets. That is very important.

The data in respect of drivers is also important. Garda members on the ground, who are dealing with an individual in front of them on the side of the road, having access to information on what vehicles this person should be driving, what he or she has a learner permit for as opposed to a full driving licence, and what his or her penalty points are, etc., can make a difference.

The Garda can now tell that.

Mr. Drew Harris

All we have at present is that drivers have a licence, but not information on the categories and whether they are disqualified.

Ms Paula Hilman

We are able to say that someone has a licence but we do not have information on the types or whether it is new, provisional or full. We do not have information on the category of car or vehicle people are able to drive.

We know they are disqualified, but that is a disqualified "Yes" or "No". We do not even have the data on penalty points. For example, if someone is sitting on nine penalty points or whatever, we do not have that data. We do not have access. We have some data, and we make best use of the data we have. We do not have access to the full national driver vehicle file, however. Full access to that would-----

Senator Gerry Horkan resumed the Chair.

Is the Garda getting access to it or is there a plan to get access to it?

Ms Paula Hilman

We raised the question of getting access to it with the Department of Transport, and we are currently working through that.

Is it just about technology or does it relate to administrative issues, bureaucracy or the general data protection regulation, GDPR?

Ms Paula Hilman

It is currently with the Department of Transport.

It just needs to be worked through.

Mr. Drew Harris

We need it for a policing purpose, so the GDPR does not apply.

It is not an issue.

Mr. Drew Harris

We are using this for a policing purpose, namely the detection of individuals who might be breaking the road traffic laws.

I have raised it in broad terms here, but this has been an issue. The reason I am raising it in broad terms is because I am not sure of the exact details. I know it has been an issue for years, however. It strikes me as something that needs to be resolved.

Mr. Drew Harris

A significant step forward has been getting the insurance data. Last month, 1,824 vehicles were seized because they had no insurance. Last June, that figure was 859. In July of last year, it was 864. Therefore, we are taking hundreds more vehicles off the road. I feel that is significant in the context of road safety because an uninsured driver is an irresponsible driver. If a person is uninsured, it is likely that their vehicle has defects and they are not actually a careful or considerate road user.

This is the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. We regularly have the Minister and departmental officials before us. It would be helpful for us to hear clearly from the witnesses, and maybe get a written submission afterwards, bout the anomalies that restrict them in the context of doing their job to the fullest extent. That would be helpful for us in the context of making the case.

I thank Deputy O'Rourke. Everyone has spoken, so I will come back in for a second round if that is okay. I believe all the others will do that as well. It is really just to touch on points that might not have been mentioned earlier. I had to go and vote in the Seanad, so if I speak about anything that was already covered, the witnesses might let me know.

There was a major issue with the national car test, NCT, but it is not anything like it was. We had a report from the RSA, about how the backlogs are more or less cleared and it is back to normal. However, there still seems to be a fairly significant cohort of drivers who just do not bother getting the NCT done at all. There is no real data because it rolls over every two years. It is not like people's vehicles have never been tested, that the RSA does not seem to have the figures or that we could not identify those serial offenders who are not getting an NCT. There was a time when people could not tax their car without the insurance details and NCT date. That was removed during the backlog or maybe even before that. At checkpoints, are gardaí stopping vehicles to check if their NCT is valid in way they would have been in the past?

We talked about vehicles being seized. If the only problem is an out-of-date NCT, is the car seized? If it is not being seized, what enforcement is there to make sure people actually submit their vehicles for the NCT? As has been stated, one of the seven priorities is safe vehicles. The NCT picks up on things like tyres. We know they sometimes pick up on things we find a little finicky. I was once failed because the Baile Átha Cliath sticker on my number plate had faded. I got a new sticker and I passed 20 minutes later, so it was fine. There are many good parts of the NCT in terms of road safety, however. If people never get an NCT done, there are potentially defects that could not only impact on their vehicle but other vehicles in the event of a collision. The question is about what we are doing in terms of tax and so on, but particularly the NCT.

Ms Paula Hilman

We never stopped enforcement in respect of the NCT. A question was raised when the Leas-Chathaoirleach was out of the room about discretion. Certainly, at the time of the backlogs, that was left very much to the discretion of gardaí. Again, because we cannot be that prescriptive, they could use their discretion when someone produced an appointment for an NCT. That was the very pragmatic and practical approach we took. To give an example, over the last five years, we have detected over 30,000 people driving without an NCT. Even during the period of the backlog, we still would have seized vehicles and issued fixed charge notices, FCNs, for having no NCT.

Does that involve penalty points as well?

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes. I would imagine that in most of those cases, there was no evidence of an appointment being made and there was no NCT. There was no evidence. There was clearly no NCT and people did not tell the garda they were driving the car but that the NCT appointment was coming up. Therefore, discretion was used. A very commonsense and pragmatic approach was taken. That is the approach we are still taking. I was advised that the backlogs are decreasing. However, those principles we applied equally apply at the moment.

Technically, there is nothing to stop people gaming the system in terms of booking an appointment and then deferring it, rebooking it and so on in order to have the bit of paper that says the test will be done. They probably have to pay the €55 if they do it online.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes.

Equally, if they know the car is going to fail, they do not want to spend the money on making it safe. I have more of an issue with the people who persistently do not go and whose NCT is a long time out of date, and they just kind of ignore it. There seems to be quite a large volume of vehicles in the NCT database that have never been tested or have been tested a very long time ago. Maybe somebody, whether it is An Garda Síochána, the RSA or the National Car Testing Service, should focus in on these long-term persistent offenders because as we said, if people are going to drive without insurance, they are being irresponsible and if they are driving long-term without a valid NCT, they are being equally irresponsible in a different way. We should be drilling into these bad actors. Anybody can make a mistake, but if people are regularly driving without insurance or an NCT, those people are more likely to cause an accident than somebody whose NCT is out of date by two weeks.

Mr. Drew Harris

Perhaps I can provide figures of vehicle seizures this year. An element of those seizures has also been for having no NCT. There were 6,600 vehicle seizures for having no insurance, but there were another almost 4,000 seizures of vehicles, which are referred to in the Clancy amendment, because of unaccompanied learner drivers but also for having no tax and no NCT. Therefore, we often find that were things converge, the NCT is one of the issues, and-----

It is not the only issue but it is part of the-----

Mr. Drew Harris

It is not the only issue. I can provide that information. I am just a little wary of the figures because there could be an element of double accounting. It could be for having no NCT and no insurance. I would also highlight the significant concern we would have in respect of motorcycles. They do not have the equivalent of an NCT. Given the fatalities involving motorcyclists and the risks to motorcyclists, this quarter in particular of any year is always a dangerous time for motorcyclists. In effect, motorcycles re-emerge from the garage for the spring and summer months. It is a risky time. Those are vehicle that should also be subject to some regular testing as well.

I do not think I have ever even been on a motorcycle let alone driven one. There is no NCT-type scenario. People can drive motorbikes. They buy a motorbike and tax it and that is it.

Mr. Drew Harris

They get tax and insurance.

They need a driving licence for a motorbike.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

Category W is a work vehicle. I do not know what the category is for a motorcycle. They do need a driving licence but, ultimately, they do not need any safety check of the vehicle at any frequency.

Mr. Drew Harris

No. The NCT obviously applies to vehicles of a certain age and that is recurring test. No such test exits for a motorcycle.

I am not sure if anybody touched on e-scooters, which have been talked about frequently but particularly at the moment. The emphasis on the radio this morning seemed to be that e-scooters will be banned for under-16s. Is it correct to state that e-scooters are banned at the moment and that their use by anyone on public roads is illegal?

Mr. Drew Harris

That is correct.

What has the Garda been doing? People are saying that the ban relating to under-16s is going to be unenforceable. I see people almost every day when I am coming into Leinster House who are using scooters, some very responsibly and others less responsibly. Technically, however, their use is illegal. Is that correct? In other words, they are not legal.

Mr. Drew Harris

They are not legal. Perhaps, a little like the conversation on the NCT, it is about the attending circumstances of someone using a scooter and whether that is coupled with antisocial behaviour. We saw, for instance, the recent scrambler legislation and operations to in effect take on antisocial behaviour that is being facilitated by two-wheeled vehicles be they scooters or scramblers.

When you go into the backyard of a lot of stations in the Dublin metropolitan region there is plenty of evidence of the seizure of scramblers, e-bikes and scooters due to antisocial behaviour. This legislation-----

Is that primarily drug dealing?

Mr. Drew Harris

It is not to say that is only happening on e-bikes. Scooters, small motorbikes and so on are also being used and the road traffic legislation fully applies to those.

Part of antisocial behaviour would be drug dealing. What else is antisocial behaviour?

Mr. Drew Harris

Noise and nuisance and people being unable to use public spaces.

Ms Paula Hilman

Footpaths.

Mr. Drew Harris

Even other children who want to play cannot play in safety because-----

You certainly hear of that with quad bikes, but I was not sure if scooters were in the same vein.

Mr. Drew Harris

The manner in which some of the electric bikes and scooters have been adapted means they are well capable of speeds up to 50 km/h, which is excessive. Regrettably, there have been fatal collisions involving those on electrically propelled vehicles. The momentum they build up coupled with the amount of street furniture, in particular on footpaths with signage and lampposts, make it a risky environment. We welcome this legislation. We understand there will obviously be a settling-in period with an education programme. We will engage in that before it switches to more of a focus on enforcement.

Ms Paula Hilman

The Commissioner mentioned that some of these are in the commission of offences like theft. That is obviously not antisocial behaviour but an offence. Some of them are used to facilitate other offences and there would have been specific operations around that. The other change is that we are hearing of businesses potentially waiting to come to market so these can be hired like bikes. That will be the issue. You see people using them responsibly and wearing fluorescent jackets and helmets, although helmets are not compulsory under the new legislation. In other jurisdictions, they cannot be hired out overnight so people coming out of licensed premises cannot hire them out. It will be interesting, and we will see what the impact will be of being able to hire them out. In other town centres the rented ones are slowed down. There is a GPS and once they enter a certain area, they have to go really slow. We have not had that hitherto.

Six or seven of those companies presented to the committee a couple of years ago. I will not start naming them as I will leave some of them out. They had geofencing and something like a breathalyser test before they engage. People can sign a waiver, but it is more than that. There is a sobriety test of some type. That would probably not catch drugs, but it would be for alcohol. However, from next week if a garda sees somebody who looks ten, 11 or 12 years old, they will be pursued.

Mr. Drew Harris

We will be dealing with them through juvenile liaison officers and the youth diversion programme.

I was going to ask about the business case for cameras. The business case is not how much revenue it will make but, rather, that the road in question has had a lot of crashes or incidents and a camera should be placed on it.

Mr. Drew Harris

Exactly.

It is not a commercial business case. Coming from an accounting background, the phrase "business case" means a premises would be built in a particular place because it would make money. In this case, it is because it will save lives.

Ms Paula Hilman

That is our internal terminology. It is for me to get the slice of money from the Commissioner to pay it. It is about where our money is going internally. It is for the Commissioner to allocate the money to this.

Mr. Drew Harris

I have to get the slice of money from elsewhere as well. We have to build a case for it.

The business case could be that ideally a camera is put in place that does not catch anybody because everyone slows down. In the short term, it could end up generating a lot of revenue, which pays for another camera.

Ms Paula Hilman

As I said, this is about saving lives.

Ms Paula Hilman

It is approximately €3 million, but it is about the impact. We have all seen that the impact of death on families-----

It is the impact on families.

Ms Paula Hilman

-----and communities of so many people losing their lives. If we look and see it is not having the outcome we want in terms of detections or saving lives, we will move them. We look to be agile and to move them too. There will be a good review period, in a similar way to how I spoke about the vans and if they are in the places we need them.

If the Garda place a van somewhere and detections fall massively over a couple of months, the van will be moved. I know vans are moved every day.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes.

A van will regularly go into an area, so for as long as there are lots of detections there, it is clear the message is not sinking in enough. Eventually, though, the numbers will drop.

Ms Paula Hilman

When we look at the vans, we also look at the number of vehicles they check. It is not just the number of detections. We look at the comparison of detections against how many vehicles were actually checked.

Ms Paula Hilman

We look at the overall number and that is also important.

That is what I meant. It is detections versus overall traffic.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes, we want to make sure. Some 80% of fatal collisions and serious injuries occur on the 80 km/h and 100 km/h roads. We have purposely not been looking at traffic volume because traffic volume skews to the motorways, but motorways are the safest roads.

There are lots of roads in Dublin where there are buckets of traffic and not many accidents because the traffic is going so slowly. It does not generally lead to a lot of fatalities.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes, that is why we look at fatal and serious injury data and speed profiles. We then have the views of local divisional officers. That is at the moment. We will keep that under review, but even internationally that is what a lot of comparable countries will look at. We have added in the divisional officer view as well, but it is the fatal and serious injury data and the speed profiles.

As somebody who goes down the country a lot but is based in Dublin, I see roads down the country with an 80 km/h speed limit and there could nearly be grass growing in the middle of some of these laneways. You would not reach 80 km/h if you tried but it is technically still the speed limit. I know there are different reviews taking place on bringing those down.

Mr. Drew Harris

There is a review of that.

The speed limit on the Stillorgan dual carriageway, the N11, was 60 km/h while on some of these rural roads that barely let two cars pass each other it is officially 80 km/h. That seemed to me unwise at the very least. I think the speed limit review will cover a lot of that. It will bring some of those 80 km/h limits down to 50 km/h and so on.

Does the Commissioner wish to raise anything else?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will make one point about the prevalence of serious road traffic collisions and times of day. I know people are wary late on Friday or Saturday nights and into the early hours. I intend to send the committee a heat map because the rush-hour period is also a dangerous time, with people travelling to or from work. We have compiled the statistics around this over a number of years and I will submit that.

That will be great.

Mr. Drew Harris

It shows that the evening rush hour is as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than weekend evenings.

I suppose a lot of that is people are tired or may be distracted because they are thinking about what shopping they are getting on the way home or are making phone calls they maybe should not be. There is a lot of volume and people are tired.

Mr. Drew Harris

It is perhaps also because people are making a regular journey, and they know it well. They do not concentrate on it as much and there is a temptation, which we see, for people to distract themselves with social media or whatever it might be. The amount of traffic on the road does not really then-----

I remember hearing a statistic years ago that lots of accidents happen within one mile of the driver's house. Is that still the case? Does it tend to be the local and familiar or people maybe chancing their arm coming back from the local pub late at night?

Mr. Drew Harris

There is certainly an element that people mostly travel in their local area. By definition, therefore, these road traffic fatalities are happening close to home. There is a piece where people think this is all happening in the early hours of the morning when actually the risky time is during the day, up to approximately 8 p.m. From 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. on any working day, Monday to Friday, is a more prevalent time than later in the evening or in the early hours. I will submit the heat map.

Is that for fatalities?

Mr. Drew Harris

It is just for fatalities.

We were always told that it was late at night, at the weekend, on rural roads and involved young people.

Ms Paula Hilman

It has changed.

Mr. Drew Harris

I do not know whether it has changed, but that has certainly been the legend around it. We have done a longitudinal study, which has driven our practices in terms of when we have resources on to deal with this.

Ms Paula Hilman

To date this year, 22% of fatalities, or one in five, have happened between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m. At the weekends, 19% are happening on Sundays, but the next highest day is Tuesday at 18%.

Maybe working from home has made a change.

Ms Paula Hilman

Many people come into the office on a Tuesday. The Commissioner spoke about the times of the day. From looking at the data, we know that the most dangerous times on bank holiday weekends are between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on the Thursday and Friday and then on the Monday because people are travelling. The exception is August, when it stretches into Tuesday. This is the sort of work we do as regards bank holidays, namely, understanding and using the data to enable us to focus on where we should place gardaí and our operations. We give them that data when we are planning for bank holiday weekends.

As motorists, it would also be useful for us to know that there are times that, although we might not consider them risky, the statistics show they are. There are much larger volumes travelling at those times, so the percentage of accidents relevant to traffic might be less, but the incidents are still numerically high.

Mr. Drew Harris

Very risky behaviours like driving under the influence-----

Mr. Drew Harris

-----are more prevalent towards the weekend.

Ms Paula Hilman

Drugs are being detected at every time of the day. With drink, what we are seeing relates more to on-licensed times. With drugs, though, people are being detected-----

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

The witnesses stated that their new drug wipe test was not only portable, but delivered faster results on the list of drugs it detected. From an evidential point of view, is that test sufficient or, as with alcohol, does the person have to be taken into the station to be given a blood or urine test?

Ms Paula Hilman

It is the same. The test is purely an indicator. It is similar to a Covid test. It gives an indication and the person is arrested and taken to the station for a blood test.

We have always heard that, when a person drinks alcohol, the level reduces every hour afterwards because alcohol is essentially water soluble whereas many drugs remain in people’s fat cells. At least, that is what I have heard. The witnesses might confirm or deny it. If a person takes drugs at the weekend, those drugs would still be in his or her system three, four or five days later and could be detected.

Mr. Drew Harris

That is correct. Alcohol is tested against a specific level whereas the drugs test checks for the presence of drugs.

If a person consumed cannabis on a Saturday evening, it would likely be detected the following Tuesday morning.

Mr. Drew Harris

As an organic product, cannabis stays in people’s systems for a long time.

And it has effects on driving for a long time.

Mr. Drew Harris

That is why we have the law. There is a risk of cannabis having an impact, so if we detect its presence, the assumption is that it is having a negative impact on a motorist’s ability.

Ms Paula Hilman

In the first four months of the year, we detected 1,549 people drink driving and 1,050 drug driving, so drug driving detections are not far behind.

The Garda would not have been catching them before.

Ms Paula Hilman

I covered this one of the times I appeared before the committee previously. We saw detections increase in 2021. At one point in 2021, we had more drug detections than drink detections. That was during Covid times when-----

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes. Our detections have increased for various reasons. Before the drug wipe test was introduced, Professor Cusack of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety released many of the machines we had been using and we moved those into our vehicles. Once we had them more mobile and more accessible, we started seeing detections increase. In case committee members have not seen it, the wipe test is like a Covid test.

It is up to five or six times more expensive.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes.

We hear anecdotally from gardaí about the amount of red tape they have to go through to take a prosecution. Is there any way of streamlining the process and making it easier so that we can get more of their working time spent out detecting crime and dangerous behaviour?

Mr. Drew Harris

This touches on the remarks about bureaucracy and the investigation management system. There have been considerable advances in streamlining that system, but whenever a garda detects someone under the influence, there are points to prove. It is not a straightforward prosecution. There are all sorts of pitfalls around case law and points that must be proved to a criminal justice standard, so it will never just be a simple file, given all of the evidence that will be required for the proofs. However, we have tried our best to streamline the process as much as possible. Obviously, we want prosecutions. A number of cases involving people under the influence of drink where their readings are low are dealt with rapidly through fixed-charge penalty notice, FCPN, disposals. That has taken away from the number of prosecutions.

Regarding drug detection, many people take medicines or use cannabis oils, ointments and so on, for example. I am thinking of the slick barrister – we have a few of them in Leinster House – who can talk his or her way around that. I am not referring to anyone on this committee, thankfully. Has the Garda gone through enough prosecution cases yet to be able to determine where the difficulties arise?

Ms Paula Hilman

The feedback from our roads policing members is that many people who are taking prescribed medications actually carry those with them. Some of them may fail the test, but there is also the opportunity to take a roadside impairment test. The issue would be dealt with differently to see if it was a drug that someone should not be taking if driving, but the circumstances would be considered. A garda would also consider whether the person’s driving was impaired as opposed to just going by a positive test. That it was a prescription medicine would be taken into account. Most gardaí find that people carry those medicines with them to be able to show that they have been prescribed them by their doctors. Gardaí are trained in the roadside impairment test to see whether people are impaired.

The drug test is not for a specific level, but any level. Does that create a problem? If a person consumes a drug, he or she can test positive up to a week later. Obviously, the person’s driving would not be affected at that stage. The test is just detecting the legacy of something that happened well in the past. Is discretion applied? Are there issues? Does the test involve any measurement or estimate of how long before being detected the person had taken the drug?

I might come in on that point. Alcohol flushes through a person’s system faster. The test used to read “Pass”, “Fail” and “Zero”. If someone passed, there might be something in his or her system, but it was below the limit. Is the case with drugs the same? People take drugs and probably do not realise those have an effect on their systems. In a drugs test, is the fail level the level above which the Garda believes driving would be a problem?

Mr. Drew Harris

The drugs we seek to find are cannabis, cocaine, benzodiazepines, opiates, amphetamines and methamphetamines. It is a select group of illicit drugs. We test for their presence. The assumption is that, if they are present, they cause an impairment of a person’s driving ability. This is the way our legislation is framed.

Regrettably, Ms Hilman and I are reading about fatal road traffic collisions. We can see a pattern of detections regarding people who have been under the influence or who have had some form of impairment from having drugs in their systems and then were subsequently tragically involved in road traffic collisions. This is a problem and the difficulty is that we do not know if these were drugs taken the night before, an hour before or four days before.

Ms Paula Hilman

This is an indicator that people pass or fail. People might fail a DrugWipe test but when the matter then goes to the Medical Bureau, they may, potentially, not be prosecuted because the reading is too low. If Professor Cusack is watching this meeting, he is probably screaming out the technical knowledge because he would have it.

We have had him in here before and I am sure we will have him in here again. I know he is very welcome.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes. The DrugWipe test is an initial indicator. There is then the blood test and it is when that reading comes back positive that someone is prosecuted. There are some numbers that will not be prosecuted. Although people may have failed the DrugWipe, they may still not have a level that will show up on the blood test.

If they fail the blood test at all, though, they will be prosecuted.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes.

This would be because there would be a sufficient level of drugs in their system for it to considered dangerous for driving.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes.

It is also an illegal substance in the first place and not like having alcohol.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes.

I know we are talking about road safety but people who fail the blood test are not then prosecuted for being in possession of drugs as well.

Mr. Drew Harris

No.

Ms Paula Hilman

That would be an extra offence.

Mr. Drew Harris

That is not the definition around possession. They have already-----

But if drugs were found in the car-----

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes, we would prosecute people then.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes.

They could be done for possession of drugs as well as being over the limit.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes. We should also not forget that the legislation is changing imminently. Currently, after a fatal road traffic collision, it is mandatory to test for alcohol-----

Ms Paula Hilman

-----and with cause for drugs. The change will make it mandatory to test for both types of substances.

Yes. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

I call Deputy Crowe. Does the Deputy have any questions to ask?

I have a few points to make. I listened with interest to the responses given by Mr. Harris and Ms Hilman to Deputy Kenny. They were very much going down the avenue of discretion. In the context of a situation where a person is pulled over on suspicion of being under the influence of drugs, the witnesses started to elaborate on how gardaí have discretion. To build on a point from earlier, it is essential for the force that there be a full definition of what this involves and how it works in a practical sense. I would say that someone who has long since passed out from Templemore probably needs some clarity from Garda headquarters in order that this aspect does not become a stick with which to beat the force.

To follow on from what Deputy Kenny said, the question on medicinal cannabis has been well answered. Turning to passive smoking when it comes to cannabis, if a guy or a woman is drinking beside you in a pub, you cannot passively acquire alcohol. If, however, someone is sitting beside you all night at a party smoking cannabis, surely you are inhaling that smoke. There are probably dozens of other scenarios like this. How are they factored in?

Mr. Drew Harris

Well, if the passive smoking has happened to such an extent that it has had an impairment effect, which is determined by the initial test and the subsequent blood test, the alleged offence of being under the influence of drugs is made out.

I nearly know the answer to my next question but it is worth asking anyway. There is a drive on to recruit new members of the Garda Reserve. Can members of the latter have any role in terms of road policing or is this totally locked out? Is this a role for the rank-and-file gardaí?

Mr. Drew Harris

We want to put the members of the Reserve that we hope to recruit on community policing and community policing teams. As part of these community policing teams, they will have a role in respect of roads policing and roads safety issues. It will be integral to their role.

Ms Paula Hilman

Just to add to that response from the Commissioner, I remind the committee that even in the context of our roads policing detections, 25% of these are undertaken by regular members. With drink and drug driving offences, this rises to 75%. Regular members of the force, and I am including community gardaí in this as well, are already contributing to road safety through that level of detections.

I have a question about the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB. It relates to road safety. There is not a town in Ireland where the Garda is not investigating a guy who does not go out to work but who has a big car in the driveway, takes luxury holidays and has a nice watch on his wrist. These people are in every community, unfortunately. They are the scourge of society. An Garda Síochána is heavily on their case, but then we see that, day to day, so much stuff is allowed to slide. This could include owning a dog illegally, committing speeding offences or even switching number plates, which I think happened in one scenario. It is a major frustration for the public. Of course, a great deal of important work is going on, and you cannot go in daily hampering a big investigation that is under way. I can think of many examples, which I will not detail here, where laws are being broken day to day, but there is a direction to ignore that and not to report it because CAB is after the big prize when it comes to the suspect in question. I ask the witnesses to comment on this type of scenario. Are there a certain number of people who are considered to be above the day-to-day road traffic offences?

Mr. Drew Harris

No one is. It is called roads policing for a purpose. It is not just about road traffic legislation but about denying the criminals the roads as well. I am very strong about the use of vehicles by criminals, including run-arounds and uninsured and untaxed vehicles, which have, in effect, disappeared off the system and yet are in our cities and towns. These are vehicles that we specifically target. The section 41 ability to seize vehicles is a great tool that we have. It gives us the ability to remove vehicles from criminals for roads policing purposes. It is to our advantage if we can disqualify a criminal through whatever detection method it might be. It is always to our and the community's advantage to bring criminals to justice. There is no such thing as somebody having a pass because there is some other big investigation going on. The more we know about an individual, the better. The more they feel the application of the criminal law, the better.

That is reassuring, but it is at odds with what is often said in the organisation.

Mr. Drew Harris

I do not know who is saying that. They do not say to my face, and they should not be saying it because it is completely contrary to our purpose. Our purpose is the prevention and detection of crime. Our purpose is to make people feel safe and secure as they go about their business and no one has any sort of writ to be outside the law. Anyone committing an offence should be pursued without any fear or favour and pursued rigorously and practically. This has been my standpoint now for nearly six years. Whoever is saying this to the Deputy is completely distorting the picture of what is happening within the organisation. This is a complete distortion of what we are about.

I thank the Commissioner. My next question concerns age-old laws that allow horses to be on the roads in Ireland. It is probably a throwback to yesteryear, when many families did not have cars but did have a pony and trap, a donkey or whatever they could afford. It is still nice to see a horse being brought around when appropriately tethered to a cart. It is a nice traditional thing. Although it is not my cup of tea, many people enjoy taking horses out for a sulky ride on a weekend. However, there are races happening on open public roads. Sometimes, this is happening on dual-carriageways where vans and jeeps close off the road and all the public traffic is held up behind them while this wild-west-style race to an endless finish line takes place. Where does An Garda Síochána stand in the context of this type of scenario? We hear very little about it clamping down on this activity. In some parts of the country, it is a Sunday morning thing. It happens every Sunday or every second Sunday. In this day and age, from the perspective of animal welfare and road safety, there is no justification, cultural or otherwise, for someone to be driving a horse down a road like that and putting everyone at huge public risk.

Mr. Drew Harris

I agree entirely. Ms Hilman will cover some of the specifics of the operations that we have undertaken. In the last weeks alone, however, I know we have undertaken very specific operations that have included the seizure and retrieval of horses where we have felt there have been cruelty-type or the risk of cruelty-type offences. On closing off roads and the description the Deputy gave in terms of slowing traffic down or closing off roads, etc., often in vehicles, we do pursue the offences and engage in this regard as well. Ms Hilman might set out some of the specific operations that have been undertaken in this regard.

Ms Paula Hilman

Yes. Certainly, as the Commissioner said, where these offences are taken, either those relevant to animals or to road traffic legislation, these are investigated.

It is similar to the approach to scramblers. We are looking at how we can prevent it and whether there is an opportunity for it to take place somewhere else, such as, for example, on private land. We are doing a great deal of work on that. Part of our other portfolio is working with the Garda travel advisory group. We work with representative groups to see if something can be done to prevent this from happening on public roads and if some sort of facility could be developed. It is a conversation at this stage. As well as enforcement in respect of scramblers, part of that project is looking at whether private land could be used for that. We are looking at how we can resolve this long term.

There is a nettle to be grasped. This is a major public safety issue in the context of our roads. I am glad the Garda is being proactive. No one is entitled to own a horse or another animal. I am a farmer - I inherited a farm. I would not have been able to decide, seven years ago, that I wanted horses, cattle or sheep because I did not have an inch of ground to put them on. Yet, some people believe they have a God-given right to have horses out the back garden, tethered to a pole in the local retail park or sometimes in the living room. There is no cultural or family entitlement. We all come from a family history of horse ownership. Go back to the 1950s - there were no motor cars in most Irish families. There was a horse to get you to town, home and wherever you needed to be on Sunday, including mass. Everyone has that tie to horses but it does not allow us in 2024 to unconditionally own a horse and treat it in whatever way we want. There is no developed country I can think of that has such a lax approach to horse ownership or control. I would love to see the Garda properly grasp that issue. There is no automatic entitlement. If someone wants a horse, they need to buy or lease the land and pay for a livery but there is no entitlement, certainly in urban environments, to tie horses to poles. The laws are quite restrictive but they need to be grasped and enforced.

For the benefit of road safety.

Absolutely, and horse welfare. There are many reasons. We are discussing road safety in particular. Deputy Lowry mentioned this earlier. Three or four years ago, call centres moved to civilian staffing. Whether for road safety or other crimes, when people phone that line or when you phone your station to get a car dispatched, you are fed through this phone system. I think it is a centre in Cork that answers. Is that correct?

Mr. Drew Harris

There are centres in Cork, Galway and the Dublin metropolitan region.

I understand, from an efficiency point of view, that the Garda wants to free people up from manning lines and have gardaí out there policing the streets. I do not mean this in a disparaging way - the people do not have policing smarts. None of the members of the committee is a garda; none of us has Garda training. It is the witnesses and the members of the force who have that training. I am aware of occasions where people have been on three-minute phone calls. I have made a number of calls myself. The responders get a bit of information but they forget to get the eircode or some other important detail. Sometimes, a situation is unfolding. Whether from a road traffic point of view or a general policing perspective, key stuff is being lost daily because the person on the other end of the line does not have the policing smarts. I mean that in a respectful way. One could only have that knowledge by going through the training, being in a force that does this day in come a day out. There is definitely something lacking in that regard. Will that be improved?

Mr. Drew Harris

This is part of our GardaSAFE programme, which is the manner in which we deal with all calls that come into An Garda Síochána. It was to develop consistency but also to manage information and GardaSAFE to make sure we use the most appropriate and closest resources to respond to emergencies. There are call takers and dispatchers. Call takers take the initial detail and dispatchers, who are, by and large, gardaí, then send individuals on. There is a process in which calls are transferred from stations to call centres, if appropriate. It is still possible to talk to your local gardaí. If it is a call for assistance, it will go to the call centre. The full national roll-out only took place in November. We are now going through the process of evaluation. Part of the evaluation is the experience of the public who seek assistance and what else we can do to improve the responsiveness of the service. In effect, we bought a fourth-generation police command control system. It is a very good system but it is not much use to us if public confidence starts to diminish because of the level of responsiveness. There is still work to do.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions today. I represent some of the population - only a small part of Ireland. I would love to see the staff get better training. It is a system that is not going to be dismantled anytime soon, it would appear. It needs to be significantly beefed up. I do not know what the correct term is but the policing smarts need to be in this system. If there is a car in the vicinity, a garda nearby or if there is an eircode, that kind of detail needs to be obtained on that phone call because the caller hangs up, invariably, after a minute and a half. If you have not obtained that information, it is goodbye.

I thank Deputies Crowe and Kenny and other members and, in particular, the Commissioner. This is possibly the Commissioner's first time before the transport committee. He is very welcome. I hope it was not too traumatic. I thank Deputy Commissioner Hilman, who has been here a number of times. She is always welcome. On my behalf and on behalf of the committee, I thank them and the entire workforce for all the work they do.

I am the grandson of a garda who joined in 1923; I think he was one of the first members of the force. He spent his career there. We all value what the Garda does. It is not an easy job. Taking from the closing remarks, I advise anybody watching and anyone getting behind the wheel of any vehicle, consider carefully how your actions could impact others and yourself. Slow down, put the phone away, give your full attention to the road and we will all be a bit safer. That is a message for all of us. We had debates in the Seanad about data centres. I saw everyone in the Seanad during those debates on their phones at the same time that they were complaining about data centres using too much electricity. We are all wedded to our phones. A phone is an important tool. People think when they use the hands-free function, they are not distracted. When you do that, while you might not be breaking the rules, you are distracted. Possibly, the same applies to changing the radio station or looking at the satnav. Let us all pay more attention and have less distraction. Do not drink and drive, do not take drugs and drive and so on. We will be a bit safer. We look forward to engaging with the witnesses in the future.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.28 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 May 2024.
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