The tone of this debate has been very gentlemanly. I must say that I am rather surprised that a more vigorous approach was not made to this problem both by the Parliamentary Secretary and the other Deputies who have spoken. So far, most of the Deputies who have spoken on this matter are very closely in touch with the Shannon drainage problem through various deputations they have introduced to different Governments and also by reason of the fact that many of the members of the House are also members of different drainage committees within the vicinity of the Shannon. I believe the Parliamentary Secretary is as anxious as anybody in this House to do the best he can. I do not agree, however, that the problem is beyond solution. It would appear from the remarks of Deputies that there is no hope of a comprehensive scheme for the drainage of the Shannon catchment area being undertaken in our lifetime. That is the sum total of the remarks passed here to-night on this motion. At any rate, that is news of a sort for the people who are so vitally concerned. The people who live in the flooded areas along the Shannon should at any rate be told what the position is, whether there is any hope of relieving the hardships they have been suffering for the last 40 or 50 years. I am glad that, so far as lay in his power, the Parliamentary Secretary has cleared the decks and pointed out that there is little hope of this problem being tackled in our lifetime.
I have already said that I believe the Parliamentary Secretary is sincerely anxious to do the best he can. Whether people in this House like it or not, I say that I do not believe the engineering staff behind him are as anxious as the Parliamentary Secretary to carry out this essential work. Without introducing any personalities, it is quite evident in all walks of life that the older a man gets the more he is inclined to take a conservative view. I believe that the conservative view or the easy way out is being taken by many of those whose responsibility it is to this State to carry out essential drainage works. That lack of energy or enthusiasm may come from lack of confidence in their own ability to carry out such essential works. I do not deny that.
There is evidence to support my contention in this respect. We all know that the first real approach to arterial drainage was taken when the Arterial Drainage Act of 1945 was passed. That was really getting down to brass tacks. Owing to the fact that the war was on and that it was difficult to get machinery, etc., it was not possible to get the first scheme under way under the 1945 Act until 1948. In 1948, the first scheme under the Act was commenced on the River Brosna. Most Deputies will remember that not so long ago in this House we were given the reasons why the Brosna catchment area was undertaken first. It might be no harm to have it on record again that one of the reasons why the Brosna catchment area was put first on the priority list was that, so far as the engineering section were concerned, the Brosna presented a less difficult proposition than any of the other catchment areas and that, as far as they were concerned, they were starting off on new ground and were undertaking a type of drainage work which they had never hitherto envisaged in this country. Consequently, I think we cannot blame them for picking what, to their mind, was the easiest scheme. Nobody can blame the engineering staff for tackling the Brosna because it was an easy scheme so far as they were concerned. Naturally, as it was their first dive in the dark, they were anxious not to come up against the tricky or intricate problems they might have to face on arterial drainage schemes on the Suck or the Corrib or many other large catchment areas that will have at some time to be dealt with. I want to bring it home forcibly to Deputies that lack of confidence is apparent in the engineering section of the Office of Works, lack of confidence in their ability to tackle a scheme of the magnitude of the Shannon.
The Parliamentary Secretary under the inter-Party Government, Deputy Donnellan, found himself in the same boat as the present Parliamentary Secretary. Deputy Donnellan showed the same anxiety when he had responsibility as Parliamentary Secretary as Deputy Beegan has shown to-day. But all the good wishes in the world and all the enthusiasm are not enough to break down the prejudices of the engineering staff. Therefore, we must accept the position in our lifetime—the Shannon is a closed problem as far as drainage is concerned.
The position along the Shannon, as far as the people there are concerned, is that, for years past, they have lived in hopes that something would be done. Year after year, deputation after deputation went to the different Ministers of the various Governments in power, hoping for success in their efforts either to have a drainage scheme carried out on the Shannon or else that they would be recompensed for the loss they suffer owing to flooding every year. Every time there is a general election hope runs high in the breasts of those dwellers along the Shannon, but I think the day has come at last when little or no political capital can be made out of this drainage problem.
I am glad that this motion is on the Order Paper, if for no other purpose than to get a statement from all sides of the House, a statement giving information, at any rate, as to what can be done for those people who live along the Shannon. I think that the motion is useful in so far as it will give definite proof to those unfortunate people that there can be no hope held out to them of a major arterial drainage scheme being undertaken in our lifetime. Now, having satisfied them on that, and I think it is a useful thing to have satisfied them on it, we might be able to get down to an alternative solution. As long as you have people living in hope that some major work would be carried out along the Shannon, and as long as that hope existed, then it was only with reluctance that you could get any assent from those who are being flooded out to move elsewhere if suitable holdings were made available. Once that little spark of hope was held out to them, that, at some date, be it in the near or distant future, a major scheme would be carried out, and that there was the possibility that their lands which are now flooded for six months of the year would be once more fit to be utilised for tillage purposes, then the people living in those areas hesitated to give their consent to change elsewhere.
Deputy O'Higgins made a suggestion which has been made before, both by deputations and by Deputies in this House, to the effect that a limited drainage scheme be carried out on the Shannon. The Parliamentary Secretary himself is well aware that such recommendations have been made before, and I am sorry at this stage that we have not an opportunity of hearing from him his views in that respect. I think myself that if you consider the results of a limited scheme, you will find that the cost of it, according to the information that is available, at any rate, will be out of all proportion to the amount of land that would be reclaimed and brought back to productivity. In other words, the same argument can be put up against carrying out a limited drainage scheme as can be put up against carrying out a major arterial drainage scheme—the cost was prohibitive for the return which would be achieved. I would prefer if the Parliamentary Secretary would let us know to-night for certain whether or not it is envisaged at some stage in the near future to carry out a limited drainage scheme on the lines that have often been suggested to the Board of Works in the past.
So far, to-night, no Deputy put up the case that drainage, even a major drainage scheme on the Shannon, might not be as useful as all would expect. I have heard people who are interested in the drainage of the Shannon suggest that, if it is considered impossible to carry out a major scheme, steps be taken all along the Shannon valley to carry out a proper afforestation scheme. I do not know how that suggestion would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary, but I propose to enlarge upon it in this connection. If we assume now, once and for all, that the drainage of the Shannon is to be cut out, then the next thing we should do is to get down to the problem of offering alternative accommodation to the people who at present exist along or are in close proximity to the Shannon, as well as to those people who try to make a living near the various tributaries of the Shannon. I think mention was made by Deputy Finan of one particular tributary of the Shannon, the River Suck. That is a river with which both the Parliamentary Secretary and myself are very familiar. I think we have good cause to be familiar with that same river. Now, the Suck flows into the River Shannon, and the Suck is another headache for the drainage section of the Board of Works.
The Brosna scheme has been under way for a considerable time and, I believe, is now almost completed. Opinions vary as to whether the extra flow of water from the Brosna catchment area into the Shannon is going to affect adversely the people who live along the Shannon itself. That is a problem that has yet to be resolved. No doubt, if the question of carrying out a drainage scheme on the tributary of the Shannon known as the Suck arises, and if that scheme is tackled similar worries will face not alone the Board of Works engineers but the people likely to be affected along the Shannon valley.
I am not too happy about the reply given to me by the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with the proposed drainage of the River Suck. A promise was given to me by his predecessor that a survey party of engineers would be on the River Suck around July or August of 1951. We will not feel the time slipping by until July, 1952, is upon us and, so far, there is no sign of any engineering or survey party that I know of coming to tackle the initial problem connected with the drainage of the Suck. The reason I mention the River Suck is that it is a tributary of the Shannon and the very same problem faces the authorities, when they tackle the problem of flooding on the Shannon, as face them on the River Suck. There are villages along the Suck which at times of the year are practically surrounded by water. The very same problem exists along the Shannon, so that it would only be common sense if the problem of the Shannon and its tributaries were all tackled at the same time. In other words, it would be much better, when dealing with these people whose land is flooded along or near the Shannon, if steps were taken at the same time to solve the problems of the people whose land is flooded along the River Suck and other tributaries of the Shannon.
In connection with that problem, I believe that the only solution, barring arterial drainage, is to remove these people from the flooded areas. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that objections had been raised by Deputies and by people outside because unfortunate flood sufferers were removed from one side of the Shannon to the other, but the Parliamentary Secretary is big enough and courageous enough to ignore what I believe to be unchristian tactics on the part of these people. There is a danger, however, that if alternative holdings are offered to people along the Shannon, and if these holdings are 50, 60 or 70 miles away from the areas in which they were reared, the people may not be inclined to go, but that danger can be got over very easily. So far as the Clonown area, with which I am familiar and which is really the main problem along the Shannon, is concerned, if steps were taken by the Land Commission to carry out a proper survey of the flooded area, and if the people whose lands and houses are affected by the floods were interviewed, I believe it would be found that a majority of these people are willing to move out of that locality, provided they get decent holdings elsewhere.
It is suggested that they want to move only a short distance from their present position, that they want to be near the town of Athlone, and so forth. That is perfectly true, and it is only natural that it should be so. People do not like to tear up their roots and move many miles away from the areas in which they were born, and, especially in the case of the Clonown area which is very near Athlone, the people have very close ties with that town. They have traded there for years; many of their children have secured work in the factories in Athlone, and the youngsters attend first class schools, national, secondary and vocational, in Athlone. Naturally, they cannot be expected to feel anxious about moving up to Kinnegad or on to some portion of Meath. I do not think that presents any very great difficulty at all, because, to my own personal knowledge, there is plenty of suitable land available for distribution in County Westmeath within a reasonable distance of Athlone.
I had a question on the Order Paper to-day with regard to one farm—the Talbot farm at Garry Castle, outside Athlone. I have been after the Land Commission for the past couple of years to interest them in acquiring this farm. I do not know at this stage what purpose the Land Commission will put this farm to, but I believe it would be an ideal farm to give to some of the Clonown people who at present suffer from flooding. Nobody in this House is in a position to say what the Land Commission will do at any time, but it is no harm to impress on them the necessity of making available as much land as they possibly can acquire in Westmeath to solve this Clonown problem. I know that it is the desire of the people in these areas to get land as near as possible to a town such as Athlone. That is only natural. All their ties are connected with the town, and it would be too much to expect them to start out anew in fresh territory where they have little or no contacts or connections.
Many well-intentioned people have suggested that the land in question along the Shannon and the Suck should be de-rated, that it should be given at a nominal cost to the people who are flooded. I think that type of suggestion does more harm than good. I do not believe for a moment in allowing people to use those lands at a nominal cost. The suggestion has been made also that houses be built further back, so that the actual dwellings themselves would be free from flooding. I do not think that suggestion would be a solution to the difficulty.
I hesitate at this stage to suggest in a big way what would deal with the whole Shannon basin, but I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary has ever considered that the Shannon itself, from the point of view of fisheries and of the tourist trade, could be made a very attractive proposition. I know, for a fact, that a little over a hundred years ago the catch of salmon from the Shannon was in the region of £300,000 in a year. That was over a hundred years ago, and that was a time when salmon sold at 1d. a lb. In that river alone there is to-day, if properly developed, a first-class means of balancing our payments.