Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Export of Paintings. – Dáil Éireann (16th Dáil) – Thursday, 12 Nov 1959

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of the export of five paintings, said to be by the Venetian artist Francesco Guardí, which were bought from a Dublin art dealer by a London art critic and taken out of the country, whether a licence was sought and granted to allow the pictures to be sent out of the country, and whether any attempt was made to ascertain their value beforehand; if he will state the name of the applicant for the licence; and if he will give details of the machinery available for the examination and the valuing of such important works of art.

22.

Mr. D. Costello

asked the Minister for Education whether a licence to export paintings, now known to be by Guardi, from Bantry House, Cork, was obtained; if so, whether, prior to the granting of the licence, any enquiry was made into the nature of the paintings; and whether the National Gallery of Ireland was approached with a view of seeing whether the Gallery would be prepared to purchase the pictures.

23.

Mr. D. Costello

asked the Minister for Education whether he will hold a public inquiry, or, alternatively, introduce a motion for the appointment of a Select Committee of the Dáil and Seanad, to enquire into the circumstances in which valuable works of art from Bantry House, Cork, were exported out of this country.

24.

Mr. D. Costello

asked the Minister for Education if he will take steps to ensure that, in future, prior to the granting of a licence for the export of works of art from this country, the National Gallery or the National Museum will first be approached with a view to their purchasing such works so that they could remain in this country.

Dr. Hillery

With your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take questions Nos. 21 to 24 together.

There appears to be a misapprehension as to the legal position in regard to the matter to which these questions refer.

The relevant Act, the Documents and Pictures (Regulations of Export) Act, 1945, provides that the Minister shall, on application, grant a licence for the export of an article to which the Act applies, and reserves to the Minister the right only to facilities for making photographic copies of an article.

The question of having a valuation made of an article in respect of which a licence is requested does not arise under the Act, nor is there any enabling authority under the Act to prevent the export of such an article once facilities for photographing it have, if requested, been granted. It is, having regard to the purpose of the Act, the practice to confine requests for photographing to articles which are of national, historical, genealogical or literary interest.

An export licence was issued in December, 1956, in respect of paintings which from their description would appear to be what are now known as the Guardí paintings. This licence was issued to an art dealer. Normal practice and procedure preclude me from giving the name of the dealer concerned.

I am aware of no factor in connection with the application for the export licence in question which would call for a public inquiry or the appointment of a Select Committee of the Dáil and Seanad to inquire into the matter.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Might I ask the Minister if the licence was given by his Department to the same person as purchased the paintings at Bantry House? Is it the same person? Can the Minister give the House that information?

Dr. Hillery

That information would not be made available to my Department on the application.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

May I now ask the Minister whether, before such licence was granted, an opportunity was given to the National Gallery to purchase the paintings?

Dr. Hillery

That would not come within the legal position. The legal position as laid out here gives us a right to inspect and photograph, but not to make available to any other section of my Department.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Surely the Minister will agree that before a licence was given to export such valuable paintings an opportunity should have been given to the National Gallery, that they should have been told: "We have an application for a licence for the export of these very valuable paintings. Are you interested in the purchase of the paintings?", to ascertain whether they were or not?

Dr. Hillery

That would require legislation. Under the present legislation, we could not do that. It would require new legislation. It is a separate question altogether.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Has the Minister any information in his Department that would lead him to believe that any officer or his Department or anyone connected with the National Gallery inspected the paintings before they were removed from Bantry House?

Dr. Hillery

I have no such information.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Would the Minister make inquiries in his Department to see is there any such information available on the records of his Department or whether there was a report in his Department from anyone connected with the National Gallery prior to the exportation of these paintings?

Dr. Hillery

I have made such inquiries and I am quite satisfied there was not.

Mr. Dillon

Might I ask the Minister this supplementary question: If there is an obligation under the statute to make a full and frank disclosure to the Minister of the nature of the pictures which it is proposed to export under licence, will the Minister cause inquiry to be made as to whether such a full and frank disclosure was made to him or to his predecessor, so that in considering the issue of a licence, they might be fully informed of the nature of the proposed export?

Mr. O'Malley

I did not hear the Minister. Would he state the date on which the export licence was granted?

Dr. Hillery

December, 1956.

Mr. O'Malley

This question seems to have boomeranged. Further arising out of the Minister's reply, is the Minister aware that on 9th May, 1956, I put down a Question in this House to the then Minister for Education, Deputy Mulcahy, asking him how a national treasure known as the Monsell Shrine was exported and he told me it was exported illegally; that it was offered to the National Museum; that he knew it was exported illegally but he did not intend to take any action against the people who exported it. Is the Minister aware of all this?

Mr. Norton

Could the Minister say whether at the time the licence was granted for the export of these pictures, it was known that they were by a Venetian painter, Guardí, or whether that fact was discovered after the pictures had been restored elsewhere?

Dr. Hillery

From the description given of the pictures in the application, the painter's name was not known at the time. It was put as a period painting but I could not say what knowledge any particular person had.

Mr. Dillon

Might I ask the Minister: do the provisions of the statute not require that in seeking a licence a full and frank disclosure should be made to the Minister in the application and if the applicant for the licence did in fact know or believe that these were Guardí paintings, was there not a statutory duty upon him to inform the Minister of that fact in making the application for the licence so that the Minister might act on his application in the full knowledge of the facts?

A Deputy

It is two years too late.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Nov 1959