On the motion for the Adjournment, Deputy Palmer gave notice that he would raise the subject matter of Question 14 on the Order Paper of the 28th April, 1960.
Adjournment Debate. - Flooding in Glenflesk (Kerry) Area.
On Thursday last, I asked the Minister for Finance the following question:
If a scheme has yet been worked out between the Office of Public Works and the Department of Local Government for the relief of flooding in the Glenflesk area, near Killarney; and, since the matter is one of extreme urgency, if he can now make a statement which may relieve the anxiety of the flood victims concerned.
This is the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance:
As I explained to a deputation in November last, the Commissioners of Public Works could deal with flooding in the Glenflesk area only by means of scheme under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, for the Laune catchment, and it will be several years before that catchment can be reached in the arterial drainage programme. There was no question of a joint scheme being worked out between the Office of Public Works and the Department of Local Government but in furtherance of my promise to the deputation, I mentioned the matter to the Minister for Local Government so that he would be aware of the circumstances of the case if proposals in respect of road improvements were made to him.
I recollect the representative deputation which saw the Parliamentary Secretary on that occasion. We had the parish priest of Glenflesk, Deputy Mrs. Crowley and myself, members of the Kerry County Council and some local representatives. Having considered that the Parliamentary Secretary gave us to understand that it would be too long to await the introduction of the arterial drainage of that particular area and that it might be considered as a scheme in relief of flooding rather than drainage, we felt that some scheme might be advised by which the flooding could be relieved in the area.
It is known in the Board of Works and elsewhere that the river Flesk flows through a valley which, in a sense, is lower than sea level. The Flesk flows into Killarney Lakes and the Laune flows out of the Lakes into Dingle Bay. It would, therefore, come under the Laune catchment area. So far as we know, there is no need at all nor will there ever be, I am sure, for any drainage scheme under arterial drainage for the river Laune. Therefore, if they have to wait until that catchment area is reached in 50, 60 or 70 years' time, the people now living in Glenflesk will be dead and gone and none of their descendants will live in it.
The difficulty that so often arises in connection with the flooding was explained to the Parliamentary Secretary. Serious trouble arises in connection with the flooding of these valleys. Torrents pour down the mountain and when there is a heavy rainfall they rush down into the main river which is slow-flowing. The position would be much worse than it was for some years past were it not for the fact that under the Local Authorities (Works) Act certain drainage was done.
Bushes along the banks of the river were cut down. Certain curves in the river and also some islands were cut away. In fact, if the Local Authorities (Works) Act were still in operation, provision was to be made by the Kerry County Council by which an island in a certain part of the river would be cut away. It was felt that if that could be done the real flooding would be eased. When sudden flooding occurs at certain times of the year in this area the people are oftentimes surprised in their beds. Their cattle are surrounded by water and their houses are flooded. Their lives and the lives of their livestock are in danger. In fact, I understand that they have to keep a kind of watch whenever there is danger of flooding so as to give sufficient warning for the people to move their cattle up the mountain sides before the flood comes.
The Parliamentary Secretary, in his reply to my question on the 28th, said:
There was no question of a joint scheme being worked out between the Office of Public Works and the Department of Local Government but in furtherance of my promise to the deputation, I mentioned the matter to the Minister for Local Government so that he would be aware of the circumstances of the case if proposals in respect of road improvements were made to him.
It is very bad if he only "mentioned" the matter. The deputation went away satisfied that something would be done and that the Parliamentary Secretary would do more than merely mention the matter to the Minister for Local Government so that he would know all the circumstances of the case made to him. I think it was perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary himself or some of his engineers present who spoke of relieving flooding on the roads.
The roads are flooded but we are not so much interested in the flooding of the roads as in the flooding of the houses and the lands and the danger to human beings and the fear of their livestock being drowned. If you raise the roads in the hollows where serious flooding occurs, what are you doing? You are throwing the flood waters right into the lands and the houses. That would be a rather peculiar arrangement to relieve the flooding.
The deputation made a good case. The Parliamentary Secretary, his officials and the engineers of the Board of Works were impressed by the case made. In fact, we all went away— and Deputy Mrs. Crowley could confirm this fact, if necessary—under the impression that something special would be done; that, if necessary, some kind of short legislation would be introduced which would give power to the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister for Local Government to relieve the flooding. That is the impression we got. When the people in the area are informed of the reply by the Parliamentary Secretary, I am sure they will be seriously disappointed.
I thought it only right that I, on behalf of those people, should tell the Parliamentary Secretary even at this stage it is not too late to look up the file in connection with the matter and see if something could be done to relieve flooding. I know very well, of course, that the Minister for Local Government and the Department concerned would not like to put the Local Authorities (Works) Act into operation. For some reason, they do not like it.
Spite.
However, could they not bring in something of their own?
It would not be much good in this case.
Could they not bring in some little Bill of their own by which work of this kind could be carried out? I am sure that there are places, even in the Parliamentary Secretary's own constituency in Donegal, where such legislation would be necessary to relieve flooding in cases like this. There is no use telling the people of Glenflesk that they must wait for the operation of the Arterial Drainage Act in that particular area. That would be a wait in saecula saeculorum. In any case, as I say, there is no question of drainage; it is a question of relieving flooding. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will do something in the very near future, before next winter when the serious flooding may occur, so that the people in the area may live in comfort in their homes and feel assured that their livestock will be safe.
Deputy Palmer's statement is basically true to a point. However, he may have gone away with an impression which I certainly did not intend to give him and which I do not think I did convey. It is true to say that the deputation made a very good impression because, like every other deputation concerning drainage, they had a very good case to make. The Flesk is a river which is subject not to ordinary flooding as much as to torrential flooding periodically, and it is a question of control rather than drainage.
It was shortly before I received the deputation that the parish priest and the curate were marooned as a result of flooding, and it created a lot of local feeling at the time, possibly resulting in the deputation coming to Dublin. But it was just one of the many cases which we have been asked to deal with in my short time in that office and every deputation asks for a portion of a major catchment area to be taken before the catchment is reached. That is exactly what the position was and I think I made it perfectly clear to the deputation on that occasion that what they were asking was outside the scope of the programme of arterial drainage and that it would have to be taken as portion of the major catchment area.
As Deputy Palmer pointed out, it is the river which flows into the lake and not the outflow river, which would make it all the more difficult to take that portion of the catchment without taking the catchment as a whole. The Deputy referred to the sea level. I doubt if that is true—it may be——
Portion of the valley.
The engineer's report on it is that it is a torrential river and that flood control is what is required. We thought of many possible solutions to the problem, something which might offer an immediate solution, but we could not undertake them. There was no question of our cooperating with the county council but I did promise that I would discuss the matter with the Minister for Local Government, as I did on more than one occasion, in the hope that the local authority could justify the expenditure of some money on the drainage of that river and relieve the flooding on the road.
It was emphasised by the deputation that the railway somewhere contiguous to it, or adjoining it, was about to be closed and that that would divert a certain amount of extra traffic to the road which was subject to flooding as a result of the Flesk river being in the condition it was in. In that way, we saw a possible reason why Local Government might interest itself in paying some attention to the road. Naturally the thing to do would be to relieve the flooding so as to leave the road immune to floods and solve the problem for the time being of the drainage of the Flesk river. That is one of the things which I saw as the only possible immediate solution to the problem.
The Deputy spoke of the Local Authorities (Works) Act and of making money available for work under that Act. I would remind the Deputy that £2,500 was spent on this river under that Act and it is something which goes to prove that any type of scheme for drainage work of that magnitude is actually wasted money unless some provision is made for maintenance.
No. If that money had not been spent, the people and their livestock would all have been drowned.
Nobody was drowned there at any time and that amount of money was expended and my information is, and I am afraid the deputation was of the same opinion, that the position is just as bad as it was before the £2,500 was expended on it. It is very likely that it has aggravated the problem. That has happened in many cases and it just shows again, that the problem cannot be tackled piecemeal. To tackle it piecemeal sometimes only aggravates the entire problem and creates a worse problem than that which we undertook to remedy at the time.
However impetuous the Kerry people may be about solving this immediate problem, they must realise— they have two big arterial drainage schemes, one which has been completed successfully, the other being well under way, so that Kerry is not doing badly—that arterial drainage is really the solution for serious flooding of any type. I do not agree that it will be so many generations until it is undertaken, if we maintain the present rate of progress.
The Deputy would be well advised to pursue the question of having some relief afforded of a more permanent nature than in the past. I am afraid the Office of Public Works have no scheme under which they could undertake piecemeal catchment areas already on the list of areas to be undertaken as major catchment schemes. We have had a deputation from Boyle which felt that part of that area should be undertaken, and deputations from several parts of Tipperary which felt that tributaries in major catchment areas should be undertaken for the time being. If one were to accede to any request in that respect, the whole arterial drainage programme would resolve itself into one of piecemeal drainage and leave us where we were before the 1945 Act was put into operation.
I regret that it is not possible to say something more encouraging. As I explained to the deputation at the time —I thought I had made the position clear, but Deputy Palmer may have misunderstood at the time—I did not and could not undertake to give a promise that the Office of Public Works would co-operate with the county council because there is no such scheme under which they could co-operate to relieve flooding of that type at the present time.
The Laune catchment scheme is a worth-while scheme and when it is carried out, it will be the third of its type in Kerry—which is a very good record in the county. I was definitely impressed by the very good case made by the deputation, and even the officials of the county council who were fully conversant with the situation at the time appreciated the position. In fact, some of the county council officials requested assistance from the Office of Public Works by way of survey and advice and even the hiring or loan of machinery to enable them, if they undertook it at any time, to carry out the job.
I hope that when the Department of Local Government have fully examined the situation—and, mark you, I would be very careful not to say anything that would commit them to something to which it is not my responsibility to commit them—they may find some reason, as I have suggested, for alleviating road flooding problems which will have to be tackled at some stage and in that regard, the relief of the flooding might be the only possible solution. That would meet the dual purpose of safeguarding the roads and controlling the floods for some time until the Office of Public Works get round to doing a really complete job on it.
Do I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that the Department of Local Government are still examining the position to see what could be done to alleviate flooding?
I said I would be very careful not to commit myself to any undertaking on behalf of the Department of Local Government and that I would not like to have them make a statement committing me to something that was my business but I did promise to discuss it with the Minister, as I did, and I am prepared to discuss it again. I am hopeful that they may see good reason for doing something that will remedy the flooding on the road and alleviate the flooding from the river.
The Minister for Local Government put the Parliamentary Secretary in the cart once before, just before Christmas.
No, not for one moment. Nobody put me in any cart.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 4th May, 1960.