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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 Mar 1977

Vol. 298 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - National Energy Policy: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to prepare and implement a national energy policy based on the maximum use of the country's natural resources and making adequate provision for the protection of the natural environment.

It is not our intention in moving this motion to make a political football out of the energy situation—a motive of which we were accused twice recently in regard to Private Members' motions. Our purpose is to highlight the absence of an energy policy and to highlight also the importance of an energy policy to the welfare of the country. We all know that a stable supply of energy at an acceptable price is a prerequisite for all economic development without which social progress would be impossible.

During the last months of 1973 international economic relations were disrupted as a result of new policies pursued by the oil producing countries, better known as the OPEC countries. At first, the OPEC countries introduced restrictions on the output and distribution of oil and oil products. They then increased the prices of their oil exports by successive stages. This had its effect on the prospects for employment. At first, employment appeared to be threatened by cuts in production resulting from material shortages. From 1974 the threat came mainly from the impact of oil price increases and the threat to the balance of payments came from oil price increases. There was also the threat to domestic inflation and the threat to the pattern of internal demands throughout the entire country. The major consequence of these changes has been a substantial threat to the growth of real income in the short-term and a marked change in the pattern of world trade. The initial effect of higher oil prices is to reduce the purchasing power of any country and it happened in this country. It creates a substantial deterioration in the terms of trade which means that more real resources must be exported to pay for the same amount of imports. It created substantial change in the structure of internal prices which has resulted directly or indirectly in changes in the pattern of activities and employment within the country.

These basic elements of economic reality were capable of recognition in the first half of 1974—I repeat in the first half of 1974. It should have been realised that a reduction in the rate of growth of real income and price increases would have to be absorbed at a time when inflation had already reached serious proportions. Inflation was at that time disrupting the pattern of income distribution mostly to the detriment of the weaker sections of our society. Efforts by the stronger groups to maintain past rates of growth of real income by demanding higher money incomes could only lead directly or indirectly to higher unemployment. One thing is certain: there is a close link between economic growth and energy consumption. This became very obvious at that time and it was apparent to everyone in 1974. It follows, therefore, that an essential element in any economic policy should be a well-thought-out energy policy. Since 1974 we have awaited the production of an energy or an economic policy. We have not yet had either one or the other. Instead, we have had an example of somebody listening to the superficial statements expounded during those months of price increases between October, 1973, and April, 1974, and influencing Government policies of attempting to reduce consumption of oil and oil products by endeavouring to price consumers away from the necessary usage of these products.

No regard was paid to the particular situation of the Irish consumer, to the fragmentation of our population density, or to the essential factors in the amount of energy consumed in Ireland. If we take note of EEC and OECD exchanges in the energy field, we see in a world context and in the context of energy how necessary an energy policy is. Otherwise, the very means of sustaining life may be in jeopardy for the next generation.

The cost of energy input into the production and consumption structure has grown from £120 million in 1972 to between £700 million and £800 million today. That is the consumer cost. The escalation in cost input has not only contributed to the number of unemployed but has so affected production and consumption cost structures that the consequent aid to inflation has triggered off very significant influences, all of which in turn have affected the standards of everyone.

The Coalition Government, instead of responding to what was apparent in 1974, succeeded in fuelling the inflationary effects of the energy cost increase by imposing further tax on petrol, as we remember at the end of 1974 when they put 15p on petrol. We remember also the reasons given for this imposition—that so much of our petrol was going over the Border it was interfering with our balance of payments was the main one. The Government further extended the range of taxes over all oil products in the 1976 budget which added greatly to industrial costs and must have had a very serious effect on employment. That is the kernel of our criticism, the cost imposed by our own Government adding to the cost imposed by the OPEC countries in their various increases.

The Coalition Government ignored the need that became evident to all during 1974 and then compounded the problem created for the economy and the industrial and social structure as a whole by utilising oil products as a medium to finance current expenditure incurred by themselves in an effort to buy political peace or support during that period.

For three years we have been exposed to the myth of Coalition ability. Here is one classic example— one of many—where the problem, having been exposed so clearly that even a child could diagnose the cause of it, the Coalition did not attempt to remedy it but proceeded to add further complications to an already serious problem. The lack of understanding has meant that industrial production has not responded to the need for change. Our production costs are causing us to be priced not only out of the export market but even out of the home market. It is no use for the Government to say that we built a few houses without fireplaces—that was a decision made on the basis of facts prevailing at the time. The changed circumstances applying since 1973 should have encouraged action on costs since then. What are the facts since that time? The IIRS have been encouraged to assist in energy saving schemes—a very worth-while exercise in our opinion. The problem for Ireland is not just to save 1 per cent or 2 per cent, but to get the consumers' cost of central energy utilisation down by very much greater percentages.

The economy is to be motivated so that the aspirations of our people for an increased standard of living will be achieved. The Government should and must initiate policies which will substantially lower the cost of energy consumption across the board. We propose the establishment of an energy authority which will examine and report on the entire energy needs of the nation. Such an authority will be encouraged to recommend measures to achieve self-sufficiency in refining capacity. We are all aware of the importance of refining capacity and we stressed this at the time of the oil crisis in October, 1973 and have continued to do so. We have the capacity to refine 50 per cent of our oil requirement. The remainder, about 2.5 million tons, has to be imported by way of products from other countries and other refineries.

I am glad to see the former Minister for Transport and Power here tonight. He told us in 1973 that we were in the hands of the multi-national oil companies. This party maintain that we are still in the hands of those multi-national oil companies. We have no more control over our oil and energy supplies now than we had in October, 1973. We still have the refinery at Whitegate. Even though it does a good job supplying 50 per cent of our oil needs, we are still dependent on the multi-nationals and outside influences for the remainder of our oil requirements.

If we were self-sufficient in refining capacity, we would at least have control over supply and cost. Without adequate refining capacity we cannot have this control. This means that we are still in the same position as we were in October, 1973—almost three-and-a-half years ago. It takes approximately three years to build a refinery and have it on-stream. This means that we have lost three further years in gaining self-sufficiency. We continue to have no control over supply and cost. If an oil refinery was about to become operational here we would have control over supply. We could buy direct from the OPEC countries as other countries are doing. Tankers, tied up around the world at the moment, are two a penny and can be chartered very cheaply. We could be importing crude oil and refining it here. We could have Government participation in the said refinery and have control of cost.

By having control of cost and endeavouring and succeeding in bringing down present costs of products we would create an atmosphere where the people supplying the remaining 50 per cent of our oil requirements would be forced to compete with the second refinery. They in turn would have to bring down their costs. This happened in Britain. The multi-national companies operating there had to get involved in price cutting because a French company bought out the interests of an existing British company's distribution interest and started supplying oil on the British market. This brought down the costs and the big companies had to compete. The result is that at present a gallon of petrol is about 10 per cent—approximately 10p—cheaper in the United Kingdom than here. This is a sizeable amount.

No attempt has been made to try to deal with this problem which has been with us since October 1973. We in this House are within our rights to highlight the importance of the failure of the Government to initiate any form of an energy policy and more particularly to get a second refinery under way with some Government participation thereby leading to control of supply and cost. I do not know of any active proposal to erect such a refinery or of any encouragement being given to any group to do so or to get involved in such a project at present. Nothing has happened since 1973. I fail to see where we have an energy policy in any form.

Our industrialists, petrol users and so on, are still exposed to the same influences. This has had a detrimental effect on our industrial output and industrial operations. The increases not only by the OPEC suppliers but also by the taxation imposed in the 1976 budget on heavy fuel oil for industry have added greatly to industrial costs. This has made industrialists less competitive not only on the home market but also in world markets. This in turn has led to more unemployment here. Nothing has been done about this. The taxes still exist. The extra costs imposed by the Government are still with us. While this Government remain in office it appears that these taxes and extra charges will remain.

As we said during the debate on An Bord Gáis, this party would not permit the waste which has occurred or is about to occur with the discovery of natural gas. The Government decided to give half of the gas to the ESB to create more electricity thereby effectively wasting close on 75 per cent of its thermal value. At that time we advocated that a gas grid should be set up whereby the natural gas could be fed into areas which already have a gas mains structure in different towns and cities, such as Dublin. In that way cheaper domestic fuel would be available to users than that which they now have. We also maintain that it should be utilised to supply low cost energy to industry in some areas. These ideas were unacceptable to the Coalition when we put them forward and we still find ourselves about to waste a large percentage of this natural gas. In Britain they have utilised it for low-cost energy and they are so competitive that the Coal Board and the Electricity Authority cannot compete. Here there was a golden opportunity for this Government and the country to start on the right foot with its first strike of natural gas or oil and utilise it properly, maximising it for the benefit of consumers and thereby helping industry and those dependent on gas for domestic use. Despite what we advocated, the Government continue on the course of wasting this natural resource which we were so fortunate to find.

The EEC have failed to a great extent in establishing a realistic energy policy. They have had meetings and the only thing we can ascertain from these meetings is their failure to come up with a realistic energy policy. In the period up to 1973 the Community adopted a series of measures in the energy field. These were however, too specific and too limited in their scope to constitute an effective basis for a Community energy policy. The 1960s and early 1970s were years of economic expansion not only here but in the EEC countries as well. People believed there were adequate energy supplies available and such optimism was hardly calculated to induce the member states to work out the principles on which a Community energy policy could be based. Not until 1973, when faced with the energy crisis, was an attempt made at such a policy and not until then did such a policy become an urgent priority.

In so far as there is a policy it would appear to be one of guaranteeing security of supply by reducing dependence on imported energy, an import which amounted to 61.4 per cent in June, 1975. Secondly, in so far as there is a policy, it would appear to be one of preserving the Community and the Common Market in the event of a crisis in oil supplies. On the negative side it appears unlikely that even the latest optimistic figures mentioned in the Council's resolution of 17th December, 1974, namely, a reduction of dependence on imported energy, will be achieved by 1980 and recent OECD estimates indicate that at best the Community's nuclear capacity will reach only 85.8 gw by the beginning of 1985, little more than half the objective set in 1974. Even if new policy measures permit an acceleration in the installation of nuclear equipment within the EEC targets will not obviously be achieved by 1985. At the same time, the cost of imported oil has increased sharply within all these countries with adverse effects on the balance of payments of all the member states.

It is by no means sure that the availability of oil supplies from outside the Community can be guaranteed if world consumption is maintained at its present level. Oil reserves in some of the major oil producing countries will not last more than 40 years at the present rate of exploitation. Producing countries with large reserves not in need of additional revenue may be unwilling to increase production. Any growth in world demand, such as might come from outside the Community, could lead to a further increase in the price of oil reinforcing the need for an overall Community policy aimed at reducing dependence on imported hydrocarbons and the development of alternative sources of energy. This would include the development of North Sea oil.

On the positive side, the Community's record since the 1973 oil crisis has not been entirely satisfactory. The Community consumed 2½ per cent less energy in 1976 than 1973. Imports were reduced by 7½ per cent. In this the Community is helped by such factors as a relatively low level of economic activity in certain energy intensive industry. The Community has made some progress, but that is not enough, by the reduction of its dependence on imported energy and that reduction becomes more pressing with each successive increase in oil prices. The year 1985 is the target year. The European Parliament and particularly the Committee on Energy and Research have stressed the need for positive action. The European Parliament is convinced that the adoption and implementation of a comprehensive energy policy by the Community is the only way to guarantee energy supplies. Like this party, it is convinced that a suitable supply of energy at an acceptable price is a prerequisite for all economic development on which social progress will be based.

As I said, the Community have failed to a great extent to initiate a comprehensive energy policy and we have failed as a nation to initiate such a policy. We tabled this motion to highlight that fact and to stress again the importance of a realistic energy policy. Since we will go on being dependent on oil and oil products for years to come the first essential is to ensure self-sufficiency in refining capacity with some control over supply and costs. We are fortunate in having some natural sources of energy but they are only a percentage of total requirements and we are faced with the fact that we will continue to import oil for quite some years. Even if we are fortunate enough to find oil off our south or west coast, it will still be some years before that oil can be brought ashore. That is particularly true in the case of the west coast because of the depth at which the oil is and the problem will be to make it a commercially viable proposition. Nobody has so far discovered a means by which to take out oil at a greater depth than 580 feet. That is the depth in the North Sea. Some of the deposits off the west coast are at a lower depth than 600 feet. If we find it, and hopefully we will, it will not be coming ashore for quite some years and, in the meantime, it is obvious, as it has been for the last three-and-a-half years, that the first essential is to become self-sufficient in refining capacity.

Until we find our own oil we can buy it direct from the OPEC countries and from the Arab countries. They are quite willing to do business with us and to sell direct to us. We have much to offer in exchange, in technology, agriculture and many fields, which could be utilised for the importation of crude oil from some of those underdeveloped countries. When we are fortunate enough to find our own oil, we will be able to refine it with the least possible delay and get the full benefit of being so lucky which will be of great benefit for the domestic consumer and the motorist but more important still, for the industrialist who has been faced with such costs in recent years that his competitiveness in the foreign markets and in the home market has been interfered with.

We maintain that we must have a realistic policy and that we have not had such a policy. We believe it is past time for initiating such a policy. This side of the House will have no hesitation in initiating an energy policy when returned to Government after the next election. We intend to get to the base of the massive energy problem which we will have to face for some time to come. We intend to do something realistic about the energy question in order to benefit the economic welfare of the country and to give some element of security to all the users of energy in the country.

I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"approves of the energy policy of the Government which is aimed at optimum development of the country's natural resources, ensuring adequate and secure supplies of energy at reasonable cost and promoting rational and efficient use of energy, while making adequate provision for the protection of the natural environment."

Deputy Barrett opened the debate on this motion by saying that he did not intend to make a political football out of an energy policy and then proceeded to do that. He has been trying to kick this ball, which he says is not politics, around this House and the country in the last four years. It is a punctured ball now. He has not changed in the slightest nor has he kept up to date in any one of these matters since he first started speaking on behalf of the Opposition on Transport and Power more than four years ago.

He used exactly the same argument tonight as he used four years ago in the various speeches he then made. He used the same arguments as he used in a number of Private Members' motions, on two Estimates I took when I was Minister for Transport and Power and in a motion before the House to approve our membership of the International Energy Agency. The only change in his speech tonight is that he never mentioned the IEA. I presume he has now learned the facts of life, that we should be a member of this, and he no longer disapproves of that part of our policy, which is an essential part of the Government's energy policy. He also made the same speech in the debate on the Gas Bill last year.

The Deputy's statements are without foundation. They are full of false data, misquotations and insularity. The only set of figures he used in his speech are inaccurate. He said that the cost of energy has gone from £120 million to between £700 and £800 million in the last four years. This is wrong. It could easily have been checked and found out to be wrong if Deputy Barrett had done so.

The latest authoritative and possibly the deepest study on energy done in this country is the Dr. Henry Report which was published in late November or early December last year. If the Deputy cares to refer to Table 45, page 29, of that report he will see that it is estimated that the cost has gone up from £281 million to £555 million, a big difference in percentage increase between £120 million to the £700 to £800 million that Deputy Barrett gave. I am using that to point out the false basis on which Deputy Barrett has been arguing here for the last four years.

The Government have an energy policy. I presume Deputy Barrett really means that he cannot go into Eason's. Stanley's or any other bookshop and ask if he can have a copy of the Coalition's energy policy, put his 25p or 30p on the counter and get a bound volume. I accept that one cannot do that. However, there is an energy policy in the country. It has been built on and readjusted continuously as any good policy should be. There should not be a policy for all time in this regard. It is composed of about six headings, which I have named in the House on many occasions. He will see two speeches by me when I was Minister for Transport and Power which are long and comprehensive regarding the Government's energy policy, one of which I delivered to the gas conference in Kilkenny in 1975 and a further one which I delivered to the Fine Gael Branch in University College Cork about 12 months ago.

They are long, exhaustive and comprehensive reviews of the energy situation and spell out in great detail the Government's energy policy. The main elements of that policy are the optimum development of indigenous energy resources, access to the cheapest markets for imported energy sources and diversification of sources of energy supply, promotion of the economy in the use of fuels, stockpiling against emergency situations and participation in research aimed at discovery and development of new energy sources. These are the main strands of our energy policy and of them there are a number of various threads which feed these strands and which are adjusted from time to time in a changing situation.

Deputy Barrett said that the Government have neither an energy nor an economic policy. We have spelt out endlessly in the Dáil the necessity for an economic policy that is realistic and geared to the situation at the time. We have been spelling out this in the most difficult circumstances any democratic Government have ever been through, not just in Ireland. Democracies all over the world have met the most difficult times in this century since October, 1973, when the oil crisis unexpectedly erupted on the economic scene. This had devestating effects not alone on what is called the western world.

Even though this is a poor country it is a developed one and had a certain amount of resilience to the effects of the oil crisis. It had a certain amount of basic resources which it could use to offset the worst effects of it. It had appalling effects on the developing world. The quadrupling of the price of energy for the developing world has had shattering effects on their economy. If we choose to ignore the damage that has been done to the developing countries in order to ensure that the countries in the western world can return to the growth path of the 1960s and the early 1970s this will give us a certain amount of comfort in the short term but in the long term we will pay a very dear price for that.

Earlier today, when the Taoiseach reported on the summit conference in Rome he said something which has not been commented on yet, but it is quite significant. He said:

Deputies will be aware that the last OECD Economic Outlook forecast for member countries—

(1) an increase of GNP of 3¾ per cent in 1977 compared with an estimated 5 per cent in 1976;

(2) a growth of trade of about 6 per cent or about half the percentage growth of 1976;

(3) unemployed of 5¼ per cent in 1976.

European Commission forecasts for the countries of the Community are similarly disturbing. They say that growth may well be slower in 1977 than in 1976 and unemployment higher.

In fact, in their view Ireland, the Netherlands and Germany are the only countries in the Community where unemployment is not likely to get worse this year. That is the company we are keeping—the Netherlands and Germany two of the very strong, highly developed countries in the EEC. While I would not take that as a final proof that the policies adopted by this Government in the last four years to deal with the recession have shown to have borne fruit, I think it is an indication that what we have done has now proved to be correct, in spite of the continual harassment and bombardment not only from Deputies opposite who for legitimate political reasons will criticise the Government —indeed many people in a democracy will say that is their first duty—but from people outside this House who should know better. However, these deliberately chose to misinterpret what the Government were doing, although knowing in their hearts and souls that the course being adopted by the Government was the only sane course if we were to try to minimise the effects on the economy of the recession and at the same time avoid the very real threat to the social fabric of this and other countries in Europe.

This is something which is now beginning to be realised, that besides the effect of recession on the economies of countries there has also been an effect on their social fabric, through the high rate of unemployment all over the world and particularly in some of the strongest countries in Europe, and the extraordinary problem that is posed to democracies rather than other forms of Government by the fact that there are now large numbers of school leavers, young people who are highly educated, very intelligent, and who find their prospects of securing employment which they think should equate to the education they have received diminishing. These are things we cannot walk away from. These are problems which this Government must tackle internally but which we must also tackle and try to solve in the context of the EEC and in the broader context of democracies throughout the world. Bad and all as democracy is the alternative is appalling and it is something that nobody with a vote or with the right to use that vote freely in any country in the world should wish or probably would wish to see taken from them.

There are other instances in which democracy makes it difficult—the energy field is one of them, and I shall come to that in a moment—to obtain solutions which are desirable to ensure that those democracies continue to exist and that the citizens of those democracies continue to enjoy freedom and the right to work and live at the standard they now enjoy. This is one of the points I want to make tonight and on which I would like Deputy Barrett to say where his party stand when he comes to reply to this debate, that is, their attitude towards nuclear energy. Are they for it or against it? Deputy O'Leary, the Fianna Fáil spokesman on the environment, is here and he must have an attitude on this. What side will they take when this argument comes, as it inevitably must come in this country, about nuclear energy?

It may have been seen that to establish nuclear energy stations in Germany troops, uniformed police and guard dogs had to be moved on to sites to allow the construction to go ahead, so great was the opposition from local ecologists, environmentalists and, indeed, people who would not place themselves in that category but who ordinarily would be fearful of the danger of nuclear energy. A Government was defeated in Sweden last year by an Opposition who made this a major issue, even though that Opposition who are now the Government are trying to climb off that bandwagon. They brought down a Government, who had been there for 40 years, on the basis of protection of the environment from nuclear energy.

The reason I am saying that is that the forms of energy we now know, that is, oil, even our own turf and natural gas, are finite. There are various estimates of how long they will last. My guess is probably as good as anybody else's; between 35 and 50 years, that is my guess. What happens after that? It does not matter whether it is dear or cheap energy, oil or gas or turf, there is the possibility of no energy, if the people in democracies who are now objecting to the establishment of nuclear energy stations get their way and these stations are not established. I saw an estimate in The Financial Times this morning that even if a decision is taken at the R. and E. Council in Brussels today to allow the “jet”, as it is called, to be established in one of the three competing centres, it will probably be 70 years before nuclear fusion is commercially available in the world. If they go ahead and establish it and if the experiments are successful and it is found that electricity can be generated from nuclear fusion, what happens in the meantime? Does the world grind to a halt while at the same time the Eastern bloc countries, who have not got the problems that democracies have continue to build nuclear stations as they are doing now? Who tackles that problem? This is one of the most important questions tied to energy but in relation to democracy that faces the western world at the moment. There is no democracy, there is no European Community, no IDA, no OECD from the time of the removal of energy. We are not talking about the scarcity or the price of it but the removal of it.

Governments will have to be unpopular maybe or perhaps to fall and be willing to take the risk of paying that price knowing that what they are trying to do in their own country is providing a form of energy to fill this gap when the finite fossil fuels run out, and before fusion energy comes in. That will be the test of democracy. If we fail in that test—this applies to America as well as to Europe—then the great threat of domination by the east will not alone happen but it will not be a battle because they will have nothing to fight to take over. Perhaps Deputy Barrett will be Minister for Transport and Power or perhaps it will be Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick. This Government have taken their stance on this, and I hope Deputy Barrett will say where his party stand. It is in that context, not in the context of the short term and the movement about existing sources of energy that this matter must be viewed.

We are talking about not much more than a generation ahead. When Deputy Barrett's children and my children are our age, that is the shortness of time span in which the world has to solve its problems. Anything done by Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party, the Democrats, the Republicans, the Liberal Party, the Conservatives, the Christian Democrats in Italy, means nothing if we do not face up to this real and very important problem. What we do now is essentially short-term unless we find an alternative to these finite fuels, unless we face up to the fact that at the moment the only alternative to them seems to be nuclear energy and we will have to make way for that. To face up to the fact that these fuels are finite we must have a conservation policy. I would wish that was as crucial a part of other countries' energy policies as it is of this country's. It is distressing to see that the USA which started off in such a blaze of repentance for past sins and determination to do better for the future and to make themselves live within the resources of their internal availability of fuel oil, have slipped so far that they are now heavily dependent on imported energy for use in their own country.

As far as this country is concerned, we are 80 per cent dependent—a frightening figure—on external sources for energy. This will be improved significantly by the coming ashore of the natural gas off the south coast in the first month of next year, even though it is a small field. Tonight for the umpteenth time the Opposition have criticised the Government's use of this gas for generating electricity and have said a grid should be established to pump this gas around the country. The total amount of town gas, as it is called, used in this country represents only 10 per cent of the size of the field off Kinsale, so even if this grid was to be built at enormous cost—and enormous cost it would be —we would still have to find use for 90 per cent of the gas, and that is discounting the fact that a portion of this gas, I reckon 10 or 15 per cent, perhaps more, is used in Cork where it is going to be given anyway.

Many people spoke off the top of their heads and said that we should not use gas for electricity generation because they read in some book published somewhere at another time that is should not be so used. They did not look at the options open to the Government. One of the points made by one of the defenders of the Government was that a grid already exists in this country for transporting energy, and that is the ESB. The Government had to consider, because it made a difference to the pricing structure for this gas, whether we would take the whole field on a steady period over a given number of years. What we have decided, and at the negotiated price, is that starting officially in March, 1979, and for 20 years after that the Government would take this gas at this price over that period. If we had not had a large user to take the gas up immediately from day one of it coming ashore of course we would have had to pay more, because these are delicately balanced financial calculations, and if we did not take it from day one, it would be left in the ground, it would cost the exploiter money, then when it would be taken out of the ground there would be that cost on top of the price of the gas and we would have to pay that. Therefore it was essential to get the best value for the economy, that we should take that gas in toto as quickly as possible and over a given period. That is the contract as it was drawn up between the Government and the exploiting company, Marathon. We have allocated gas to the ESB for the generation of electricity, to NET for the manufacture of fertiliser and to Cork Gas Company for supply to their consumers. The Cork Gas Company have a choice, which they will be making probably in the next 12 months, as to whether they will convert the natural gas into gas which can be fed through the appliances which exist or whether they will feed natural gas in and change the appliances. That is an internal matter for themselves to decide.

The Minister has five minutes left.

We decided that this was in the interests of the country. A secondary and very important interest was to save the balance of payments. If I have only five minutes I would like to deal with the question of refineries. I have dealt with this so often that it should not be necessary to do so again but for the sake of the record I will do so. A refinery is a refinery is a refinery. It is nothing more than a method of refining crude oil into the various products that are needed as petrol, radiation fuel, residual heavy fuel oils for the generation of electricity or light fuel oil for central heating. There is nothing magic about a refinery. It can be put up and put into commission in less time than it takes to bring oil ashore if we are lucky enough to find oil. Self-sufficiency in refining is certainly a desirable end but it should have been achieved before the oil crisis. There was no point in talking about building a refinery in 1974 when the curve of demand for the products of refineries all over Europe was dropping. There is now 25 per cent over-capacity in the refineries of Europe. In other words they are producing more product than they can sell. If we were to build this famous refinery which Deputy Barrett says is so essential, the minimum economic size of refinery in 1977 is roughly twice the size of the existing Cork refinery. The Cork refinery supplies, as Deputy Barrett said, approximately half our needs. If we were to build a refinery we would then have half of that refinery's products coming to this country, and what would we do with the other half? Would we send it on to the over-crowded markets of Europe where there is over-sufficiency of refining capacity at the moment? Should we go into competition there, cut our prices for the benefit of the French, Germans, Dutch and English and put up the costs to our own people here in the subsidies we would pass to the refineries? ? Is that the solution? Is that what we want to do? Where would we build this refinery? In Cork Harbour?

At Shannon.

That is fine. I will start in the morning to build a refinery at Shannon if Deputy Barrett would guarantee me that that is where the oil is and that is where it will come ashore. But he does not know that and I do not know that.

And until the oil is found we would be silly to commit ourselves to a refinery whose location we could not decide, If we build it at Shannon and the oil is found off the Kish or off Fastnet, how much better off will we be? We can build any refinery to any size we like when we know the quantities of oil and their location and then we will be refining our own product. Deputy Barrett says the Arabs would be quite willing to sell products to us. Of course they would. They are very decent men. They will sell it to anybody who has money including the Irish, but they will not give us a special deal.

I did not say that.

They will charge us the market price and we will do the same to them. When we know the type, the quantity, the location of oil and where we can bring it ashore, that would be the time to build a refinery. In the middle sixties when it was quite obvious that the Cork oil refinery would not be sufficient to meet future demands in this country, nothing was done. When I came into office in March, 1973, there was nothing about an oil refinery.

Dublin Bay was there.

That is a different story. That is part of the point I was making in relation to when it is essential that a refinery and nuclear power station should be built. At what stage do the Government stand up and say it must be done, we have to have it for the future and at what stage do they say we must bow before public opinion because they do not want it now even though it affects their children? This country has an energy policy, I have listed its points and the Minister for Transport and Power when speaking tomorrow night will elaborate on the points I missed tonight.

I agree with this motion. There appears to be a lack of an energy policy based on the maximum use of the country's natural resources making adequate provision for the protection of the environment. The lack of positive physical planning can give rise to many problems. Positive physical planning is closely linked with the protection of the environment for numerous reasons. When considering any planning application it is necessary to consider the protection of the environment. The principal sources of energy are lead, zinc ore, turf, gas, oil and electricity. We must examine the relationship between the sources of energy and its impact on the environment. What is the Government's policy in relation to ensuring that in no circumstances will our energy policy in the future adversely affect our natural environment?

There are three types of pollution arising from the production of energy which are fairly well known. There are thermal discharges into waters, sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions. These can be dangerous. Rising energy production will cause problems which could become serious if adequate attention is not given now to their nature and extent. The increase in atmospheric pollution is already affecting most rural areas and the heating of water to a certain temperature is noticeably affecting ecological life. There are problems in relation to land use as well. These problems must be tackled.

The maintenance of a substantial level of energy use and transformation and the need to protect the environment must not, in the context of a long term policy, be considered as opposing objectives. Energy enables people to satisfy a certain number of social and economic needs but it is also a factor in providing the conditions and the quality of life. A rational approach to energy is an essential element in an environment policy. The need to conserve energy resources and the requirement of some environmental management go hand in hand. This policy should be developed and pursued. Techniques for recycling waste matter for the recovery of materials have important implications for the environment particularly in the reduction of pollution. They may also be important for the saving of energy and the conservation of resources. Decisions for energy protection and environmental protection should relate to the investments which have to be made. These decisions should be made in the framework of medium and long-term forecasts of developments in both fields. When new power plants and other installations are being considered attention should be paid to the design and the siting of these installations, to measures taking into account technical and economic possibilities, to ensure respect for the environment both as regards the quality of life and the protection of nature and conservation. Much groundwork should be done at an early stage in relation to collecting data and improving knowledge of the effects of thermal discharges to the environment. We should also consider in a broad sense the equipment of new power plants, such as dry cooling towers, so as to improve as rapidly as possible design and techniques in order to diminish the disadvantages they present where certain aspects of the environment are concerned. We should utilise all appropriate waste heat produced by power plants.

During the past 50 years or so world-wide energy production from commercial sources has increased at least 40-fold. This rate of increase will continue so long as countries continue their efforts towards increased welfare which is measured in terms of GNP per capita. It is reasonable to expect that the per capita energy consumption rate will increase also. Therefore, we must gear ourselves to meet the increasing demand for energy. Having regard to all the factors that are likely to influence demand there is strong evidence that the growth rate of electricity production during the next ten years will increase on the same lines as it has increased during the past decade. For these reasons particular attention must be given to the environmental problems associated with the production of electricity. We should bear in mind that, generally, energy is not available in a single form but that rather complex systems made up of numerous components are required for its production. So far as most energy systems are concerned there are involved extraction, processing and, often conversion to a more useful form, transportation, transmission to ultimate use and, finally, the disposal of residue.

The conversion to energy of fossil fuels leads to pollution of the air and of the water as well as to the degradation of land as a result of mining activities. The impact on the environment becomes great when one thinks of the discharges from large power plants and refineries. It is acknowledged that the combustion of fossil fuels is the most important source of air pollution. These fuels result mainly in sulphur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide which are regarded as being particularly detrimental to the environment and, consequently, hazardous to human health. With this in mind, industrialised countries during the past number of years have been paying much attention to the pollutants, to their origins and to the possibility of their abatement.

The general estimates of air pollution in so far as the main pollutants are concerned identify three principal sources with which we should concern ourselves. First, there is fuel combustion in stationary sources such as boilers and incinerators. Then, there are the other industrial installations such as processing equipment and, lastly, there is the pollution caused by traffic. However, the major source of discharge into water bodies is from electricity-generating plants. This factor should have a major bearing on the question of the location of these plants.

Because of silting and so on the extraction of coal is regarded as being another source of water pollution. Mining activities generally produce large quantities of solid waste but this is especially so in respect of coal, the mining of which can degrade an entire area. The question of the transport of energy is one that must be given every attention in terms of air pollution. The most striking example of the danger of increased pollution is the amount of heat discharged from power plants that are growing in size and in number. Apart from the problems of air and water pollution these plants may interfere with land usage. They raise the question, too, of aesthetics in terms of the overhead lines used for transmission purposes.

The Government should be in a position to spell out a five-year physical plan in regard to the siting of those installations. Similar problems exist in relation to refineries. In the event of oil being located in any area, the location for the refinery should be designated.

Any measure taken to conserve the use of energy or to achieve better utilisation of existing resources must be considered important. We must continue to devise ways of making the best use, both industrially and domestically, of our energy resources, bearing in mind the fight against pollution. In this regard, too, there should be greater emphasis on the collective aspect of transport as opposed to cars which have a detrimental effect on the environment.

Another aspect of the fight against pollution is the question of the organisation and distribution of power within the energy sector. The question of whether energy production within stationary installations should be centralised as much as possible or spread out nearer to its place of final use, has been decided often on economic grounds but from now on such matters must be decided from an environmental aspect also. These are matters which must be assessed carefully in the overall context of long-term planning with a view to achieving a balance between the environmental and the economic aspects.

How far ahead can we plan? The Minister says we should be thinking in terms of 30 to 35 years ahead but so far as physical planning in general is concerned there is no overall positive physical planning. Such planning is fundamental in terms of concentrating on any one sphere of energy.

From the point of view of environmental protection it is acceptable to transport pollutant over long distances to less polluted areas and for this reason the dispersion technique of a pollutant making use of pipestacks alone must be regarded with caution unless there is sufficient evidence that the transport of sulphur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide is not nuisance in itself and that their transformation in the atmosphere does not give rise to the formation of other harmful compounds and that they are quickly eliminated from the atmosphere. Even where pollution problems do arise the dispersion techniques could be accepted at least as a short term method of relief provided that the latter addition of a flue gas desulphurisation unit is required as soon as these installations are at hand.

I have no doubt that positive physical planning and the implementation of an energy policy should be closely linked and these should be closely linked with the protection of the environment. We are fortunate in Ireland in that we are still in a position to learn from mistakes made in other countries and can identify ways and means of curing problems and purifying waters already polluted as well as ensuring by legislation that our enviornment is as clean as is consistant with many usages in many fields.

It is well known that economic and technological progress while bringing much material wealth and benefit are very often accompanied by deterioration of the environment. It should, therefore, be the aim of any policy for the protection of the environment to ensure that progress in industrial, agricultural, residential and all forms of development is not achieved at the cost of environmentl damage. I believe that with modern technical advances, with good and proper planning in regard to any development for the promotion of any energy policy there should not be inherent conflict, generally speaking, between the maintenance of a good environment and such development. The proper time to deal with potential environmental hazards is in the preparation of the physical development plans which I think should have an overall controlling authority in the Government.

We must remember that in Ireland protection of the environment is essential for numerous reasons. It forms the basis of our tourism and many of the industries we hope to attract in future. The one thing lacking here as regards protection of the environment is a single co-ordinating body. There are 13 different agencies dealing with environmental matters, the Department of Local Government, local authorities, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Transport and Power, the Department of Health, the Department of Finance which has overall responsibility for the financial aspect of environmental problems, the Department of Lands, now under Agriculture, the Office of Public Works, An Foras Talúntais, An Foras Forbartha, the IDA and the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards. There are too many State and semi-State organisations with various and varying responsibilities for the protection of the environment. While this is so, it will be very difficult to have an acceptable policy. A single national co-ordinating authority with overall responsibility is really necessary.

The public generally in most areas are concerned about the protection of the environment particularly when there are proposals to set up oil refineries or any projects in pursuance of national energy policies to provide more energy. Those particularly concerned, I believe, are those residing in towns and cities or in coastal areas who fully realise the benefits and advantages of living in these areas. Much modern development takes place along our coastline and it is surely of interest to the House to realise that although we have 3,500 miles of coastline, including all estuaries, we have only 342 miles of sandy beach. We see the real seriousness of the position when we realise that bathing areas are found in about 20 per cent of the total beach areas and that there are only about 80 miles suitable for bathing in our whole coastline.

Debate adjourned.
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