A Cheann Comhairle, is mian liom mo chomhghairdeas a dhéanamh leat as ucht an ghnó nua atá faighte agat. Chraith mé lámh leat cheana féin ach is mian liom ag an am seo mo chomhghairdeas freisin a dhéanamh leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle, an Teachta Tunney, as ucht é a bheith toghta mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle inniu. Tá taithí fíor-leathan ag an mbeirt agaibh ar bhuan orduithe an Tí seo agus ar ndóigh ar na mion-rialacha freisin atá ag baint le gnó sa Teach. Tá an bheirt agaibh díreach in bhur ngníomhartha poiblí agus sna tuairimí a nocht sibh ins an Teach le blianta anuas. Tá mé fíor-chinnte go dtabharfaidh sibh cothrom na Féinne do chuile dhuine sa Teach seo sna díospóireachtaí a bheidh ar siúl sna blianta atá le teacht. Gura fada buan an bheirt agaibh. Tá gnó fíor-thábhachtach le déanamh agaibh agus tá mé ag súil go n-eireoidh go geal libh sna postanna nua atá faighte agaibh.
I am pleased to join with my colleague Deputy Reynolds in welcoming the Bill placed before us this evening by the new Minister for Transport. I would also like to be recorded as wishing Deputy Cooney every success with his new portfolio as Minister for Transport. He is a man of considerable experience in parliamentary matters and it is expected that he will give his very keen attention to all matters concerning transport and that the transport system and the country at large will benefit from that experience.
I am glad indeed to be able to support the Second Stage of this Transport Bill. I believe it is a result of the commitment of the previous administration to improving the transport system generally. It is important to recognise right away that there was a very strong commitment in the last Government to bringing about a transport system that would be as good if not better than anything that might be available in this part of western Europe. I have said before — and it is rather pleasant to get the opportunity again this evening to put it on the record — that I am convinced that we need a strategic transport system and that the existing rail network forms an integral part of that strategic system. It would be very improper, and would be resisted nationally with all the resources available to local communities and indeed to this party, if there was any plan to further restrict or to further chop up the existing railway network. Indeed there are suggestions by various authorities and interested parties that this might be a suitable time to consider the reopening of some of the unused or under-utilised parts of the railway network in various parts of the country. It can be fairly stated now that decisions taken in the past to reduce the effective railway network and decisions taken to close railway stations in the past have proved unwise. So in the new programming and planning of the transport network care must be taken not to move again towards closure for the sake of expediency or for the sake of short-term saving on the public purse. This has proved faulty in the past and in my opinion would prove faulty again.
There has been a very strong commitment to the improvement of the infrastructure as far as public transport is concerned over the past four years typified by the action of the previous Minister for Transport and the Department of Transport. I would nearly go so far as to suggest that the Department of Transport has taken on a new role in the politics and administration of this country in the recent past. It is hoped that that new impetus which was so evident in the past 18 months to two years will continue to be the responsibility of the new administration. I have always felt that the Department of Transport should be one of the premier Departments in that it affects all citizens in one way or another. For a number of years it was a quiet, backwater Department. That should not be so. If it is necessary to change rules or regulations or to give that Department new responsibilities to enable it to live up to what it should be — a real, dynamic administration of transport — those decisions should be taken and hopefully the start that was made will be improved upon by this new administration.
People like to talk about the transport system as though they never had any relation to it. But it must be remembered that it is our transport system and that CIE is our organisation charged with the responsibility under Statute of running the system on our behalf. With the coming of the various reports before the Government that Deputy Reynolds referred to earlier, perhaps it might be the time to have a new and enlightened reappraisal of all the responsibilities of the Department of Transport. Maybe the time is opportune to look at what new responsibilities should be given to the Department to make it the effective vehicle it should be in promoting the infrastructure of both rail and road services and other related transport services here. When one refers to the global term of transport matters one should be concerned with the whole operation of transport at all levels — rail, road, sea and air. There is a marked omission in the responsibilities of the Department. Perhaps now is the time to make the necessary readjustments to bring under the umbrella of the Department of Transport all the various responsibilities attached to public transport generally. Until that pattern of events takes place, until that nettle is grasped by the Government of the day, there will be no real global, worthwhile effort to improve the total transport system. A start has been made in that area and I would expect the new Minister to continue on those lines.
For a long number of years CIE bashing has been a popular pastime in Ireland — I noted a certain amount of this here again this evening — as if CIE were some organisation that one should knock at every available opportunity while ignoring the fact that the company act on our behalf, spend our money and are supposed to provide for us the best services possible. This favourite pastime both on the part of politicians and of other sectional interests has a demoralising effect on the whole organisation and has been counterproductive in the past in terms of improving the transport network and services.
We like to think that all the blame should fall first on management as if in some way they were divorced from the whole organisation and operation of CIE and that all the wrongs and evils should be visited first on their heads as if they were people without an interest in or a commitment to the responsibility vested in them. I am confident that there is as much management expertise in CIE as there is in any other semi-State operation or in any major public company. It is not only unfair, but counterproductive, to harp continually on supposed mismanagement in CIE. That is not the way to ensure the best performance from management and neither has it worked well in the interest of providing good services.
The employees of the company are the next group in terms of the pastime of CIE bashing. One might be led to believe on many occasions that these workers are in some way different from employees in other semi-State companies, that these 16,500 people are hellbent on doing down the transport services. That is something I could not accept because these 16,500 people are ordinary individuals doing their daily job of work as best they can in the circumstances that prevail in their places of work.
All too often we tend to blame the workers in CIE for some of the ills that have befallen our transport system in the recent past. Apart altogether from the contribution the employees of this huge company make to the Exchequer in terms of income tax payment, in many cases they are making enormous contributions to the communities in which they live, especially in areas outside the immediate Dublin area, through their involvement in voluntary organisations. I know of many voluntary organisations in which CIE workers are very much involved. Therefore, I am not prepared to accept the accusation often levelled at them of being a group of people whose only aim is to down tools and take to the streets carrying placards at every available opportunity.
Another group who are under the umbrella of CIE and who are the cause of some concern are the unions who represent the workers. Perhaps there are too many of those unions in terms of dealing with the workforce that exists within the company, but we must deal with what-ever number of unions is involved. Having said that, I suggest that those unions, at this time in particular, must know that it is not in their best interests to have a large section of the workforce out on the street. When I raised this matter today by way of supplementary question it was not my intention in any way to add to an already unhappy situation, such as the one being experienced now. The unions, I understand, are ready, willing and available to do what they can to bring about a solution to the current problem. Once again I appeal to the Minister to pay due attention to the remarks at Question Time today by both Deputy Reynolds and myself. Surely, it is worthwhile for the Minister, together with the Minister for Labour, to have joint consultations with the unions concerned in the hope of bringing about a solution to the problem. In this way it might at least be said that every effort was made to resolve the situation.
It is forgotten sometimes that a unique step was taken by the last administration in relation to CIE management in that we introduced worker directors to the board. It was felt at that time that these worker directors would act as go-betweens between the large number of employees they represent and the management and that they would be available to all and sundry in respect of the details of any situation at any time. Unfortunately, this innovation would not appear to have worked out well; but must not the experiment be followed through to a greater degree? Not enough emphasis has been placed on the fact that these worker directors should be availed of more so that they might play an important part in acting as mediators in dealing with these seemingly endless disputes that arise, sometimes arising suddenly so far as the company are concerned. I am hoping that a greater role can be played by the worker directors. The idea was very good and it would be unfortunate if it should go by the board merely because of a lack of confidence and a lack of support on the part of the various groups within the company.
A factor which brings about an unhappy situation so far as the workers are concerned is the lack of confidence in their future. This can be exemplified in some areas where the best possible productivity may not be forthcoming. The problem is that the workers never know from one year to another whether they are to be the subject of some in-depth negotiations, surveys or commissions resulting in their being the next to get the chop. That sort of situation leaves workers suspicious and lacking in confidence for their future. It is something that can lead to aggravated situations and to frustrations that bring about altercations and street situations of the kind we have had in the past few years. If one takes that lack of confidence on the part of the workers together with the lack of equipment that they suffer, one cannot blame these people for being suspicious that they are the next to be forced on to the unemployment queue.
Regarding the current dispute it must be borne in mind that considerable sums of money are being lost every day by the centre-city traders and that this must have a very debilitating effect on business at this time, a time which should be one of the busiest for them. These traders are justified in some of the statements they have made. They are justified in asking for ministerial action to help to resolve their problems. There are alternatives the Minister could recommend to the Cabinet to deal with this matter but some of them are quite drastic. I do not think the long-term benefit of a transport network would be enhanced by taking some of these drastic measures. Before the Minister recommends any measures to the Cabinet every effort should be made to deal with the matter at first hand. I repeat there is an onus of responsibility on the Minister to set himself up in the position of mediator or negotiator and certainly as someone who will consult with all involved with a view to securing a happier situation than exists at the moment.
This Bill deals with three areas of activity. It extends the limit of borrowing for CIE, it extends the temporary borrowing powers of the organisation and it gives a Government guarantee on certain matters. It is only when one considers the enormous increase asked for here that one realises the cost of public transport and what it will cost in the future. The House is being asked to accept an increase of £125 million on the existing limit. This is an enormous sum and there should be public accountability for it.
One of the major areas of expenditure is the electrification of the Howth-Bray suburban rail service. I am pleased to see that this is progressing and that it will be coming on stream in the not too distant future. This service will improve to an enormous extent transport services to certain areas. When it is joined with the commuter services that are being contemplated and the re-opening of some railway stations that have been closed for a number of years, we will have taken the first step to deal with some of the major traffic difficulties experienced in this city in recent years.
I hope that the carriages being purchased for the new Howth-Bray railway service will be a little better than the minimum standards sometimes one gets in other transportation systems in Europe — I refer to plastic seats and the minimum of facilities. I hope we will not adopt a penny pinching attitude with regard to the carriages. We should purchase good quality materials so that we will have long-lasting vehicles available.
There has been an enormous increase in the number of passengers in the past ten years. The 34,500 passengers recorded for 1980 will be a small figure only compared with those who will use the new service when it is available. I am glad to note that the new service will have attractions other than a speedy five-minute service from one area to another. It has a great advantage with regard to control of pollution and this aspect should be considered in respect of any new extensions in the next few years. There is a major pollution problem with regard to car exhausts in this city and in other areas where there is heavy traffic congestion. The electrification system will go a long way towards reducing the pollution level. In addition, the service will reduce considerably our dependence on oil. When one considers that every traffic jam in this city results in the loss of approximately 1,500 gallons of petrol one appreciates the enormous wastage that occurs every year. I am happy that our dependence on oil will be reduced considerably by the far-sighted policy of providing this new electrified system on one side of the city.
I should like to think that there are other savings to be had by the introduction of the service. One must mention the frustration experienced by individuals who are unfortunate enough to have to drive through the city at certain times of the day. I do not know if a survey was ever carried out on hypertension levels attributable to traffic jams but it is my opinion that from the medical and social points of view the situation cannot be regarded as desirable. We hope the Minister will take further enlightened initiatives to deal with the matter of traffic congestion in the next few years. In other words, we hope he will continue the good work carried out by Deputy Reynolds and others in the Department of Transport.
Traffic congestion in the city must have an enormous impact on productivity in certain industries located in the centre of the city and other areas. Serious concern should be given to this aspect. It must result in unemployment, in a considerable amount of absenteeism and in frustration between management and staff. Perhaps some of the bad traffic conditions that have existed in the past few years have contributed to the tensions that build up suddenly and which are brought out on to the streets.
One of the major efforts made by the former Minister for Transport to deal with this matter was the introduction of bus priority routes. It is only right that I put on record the fact that a debt of gratitude is owed to the administration and the task force that undertook measures with regard to the bus priority routes. Their efforts got off to the good start and they have been successful. These efforts must be continued until the maximum number of measures that can be adopted are undertaken. A Deputy spoke of the need for contra-flow and so on. These matters were carefully considered in every area where the introduction of bus priority routes was contemplated. We should develop in the short term the maximum number of bus priority lanes at peak traffic times so as fully to utilise public transport vehicles and at the same time reduce the frustrations of people who rely on them.
Not enough use has been made of flexi-time as a means of dealing with congestion. Industries, shopping centres and certain types of schools and institutions could have been better mobilised in having flexi-time and so remove the enormous workload on our roads and services at certain times in the morning and evening. The Minister should give attention to this whole area.
I refer to the specially commissioned and designed rolling stock for commuter needs. Normally I do not like that kind of phraseology because when one specially designs something for commuter needs one brings oneself to the baseline requirement. If we spend enormous amounts of money on these and people have to sit for longer in these newly designed vehicles it might be in the best interests of the powers that be to have a reasonable level of comfort in the design. Otherwise there will be moaning and groaning about sitting on hard seats which might lead to further delays and intrusions in the service. This might be a small matter but, if attended to, letters may not have to be written to the Minister complaining about accommodation on these specially commissioned commuter vehicles.
There will be a good service on the electric system between Howth and Bray. I pay tribute to those who suggested that the trains will run at five minute intervals and that this will be extended to 15 minutes at off-peak periods. It is an appropriate time now to say that I sincerely hope that the best technology and skills have been employed and the best training has been given to the technicians involved in the installation and running of this system. When trains run at high speeds and at the frequencies suggested in the Minister's speech the chances of something going wrong are increased. When one regards other countries with high speed inter-city commuter trains and other rapid systems one can understand the need for vigilance in all aspects of safety attached to the system. While I am not raising any alarms in this regard at the same time I expect that no money has been spared in the electrification of the system.
Parking space should be fully utilised in the city. Sometimes we develop systems and forget the downstream areas and often these represent the best value for money as time goes on. Parking areas should be provided at certain locations so that the maximum number of people possible can be enticed on to these new systems. I do not mean open areas but ones properly fenced and regulated. The only way to ensure that the best use will be made of the new services is if we can guarantee commuters that their vehicles will be safe and secure until they return. I hope the CIE management have given attention to providing the best parking possible close to their outer destination points. They may not have been as active in this area as they should have been in the city centre. They should not have left it entirely to the corporation and other statutory authorities to deal with parking. If they had in mind attracting commuters to their services they should have been first in providing parking facilities both at the outer rim of the city and in the centre. They have unutilised space attached to some of their installations and properties and this should be used for high-rise or underground parking units. If they adopt such a policy they would provide people with an opportunity to come into town, park their cars and utilise the public services. I hope this matter will get some hearing in the future development of CIE.
A decision will be taken on rapid rail by the new administration in the not too distant future. Until such time as the benefits of the electrified Howth-Bray line and the new commuter services together with the feeder bus services, better parking facilities and the stricter enforcement of regulations in the cities are seen at first hand it would be inappropriate to take a decision on rapid rail. We should analyse the effects of the new system before taking the major decision of going rapid rail. While on paper there are enormous benefits to be got from taking these decisions, in the short-term we should be reluctant to go into the heavy expenditure that would be involved. The amount required, £66.4 million, as total capital cost for the rapid rail system is not unduly expensive by today's standards. When it was initially suggested £46 million was given as the overall cost.
When the effects have been seen in increased numbers, increased revenue to CIE, improvements as far as pollution levels are concerned and lack of frustration it might be time to consider similar operations for other areas in the city. Forward planning should be done now. It is unfortunate about planning that here we have plans and no planners and if we have planners we have no plans. We are never geared in advance to deal with eventualities that will take place. Planners must have seen 20 years ago what would happen in Dublin city and suburbs with the escalation of building, improvement in economic life and better social standards — that there would be a problem as far as public transport was concerned. Instead of forward planning the opportunity was taken to close down some existing facilities.
There should be no further talk about closures. This is an expanding economy. We will have better services. We should be talking not only about improving the existing services but planning better and newer services. Such transport systems can be seen working. I recommend to the Minister that he should take a trip and see some of the newer systems in operation which work so efficiently and so well in other cities and in other countries. It would be well worth his while to take such a trip.
We should not be so niggardly when we talk about the money which has to be provided for CIE. We seem to be continually bashing CIE and saying we should give them nothing. You cannot produce a worthwhile transport network without planning long-term expenditure. If the general public knew what was involved, and knew they would get a good, fast, efficient service in return, they would be generous. That service can be provided by instilling a new sense of confidence in the management, the unions and the workforce in CIE. We have to pay for the service in retrospect anyway. I would be much happier if the money was earmarked, and if we had a programme planned in advance over a ten-year period. That planning would have the type of support we are giving the Minister tonight for this necessary extension on the limits of expenditure and capital borrowing and he would also get the support of this House if he introduced a programme to continue and improve upon the plans which were well laid by his predecessor in office.
I am particularly pleased at the Minister's reference to maximising the purchase of Irish goods in the development of these services. When people purchase small items on our trains they are not pleased to find that they were produced elsewhere. When the general public realise that they provide substantial sums of money each year to support their transport services and find that some of the items in use on those services are foreign made, they find that disquieting. I will not specify the items. Everybody knows what I am talking about. It should be brought to the notice of CIE that more is expected of them than from any other service if only because of the fact that the general public paid £70 million last year and will have to pay a heftier sum this year. Every single opportunity should be taken to maximise the use of Irish products on these services.
I should like to join with my colleague in suggesting that the Minister might take the initiative in involving the small industries division of the IDA. He should encourage his Cabinet colleague to have another look at the downstream institutions and little projects which could be started up. Any company who expend in excess of £200 million per year could be a generator of job opportunities. They should take the initiative and bring to the notice of entrepreneurs and people involved in small industries the enormous opportunities which are available in CIE, Aer Lingus and the other huge companies and corporations which are supported by the taxpayers. It is fundamental that every single component used by these companies should be the product of Irish industry and Irish expertise. If some items are not available here, the people involved should be asked to take a closer look at their specifications.
I understand that, apart from the rolling stock, 50 per cent of the requirements are coming from Irish sources. That is not a percentage of which we can be proud. The Minister would improve his position if he brought it home forcibly to all the major operations under his control that he will be looking for a progress report as to their involvement in making the best use of Irish-made products and expertise.
We waited a long time for the announcement that the new carriages would be built by CIE for CIE to improve their rail network service. I am glad to see that increased sums of money are being asked for by way of increased borrowing capacity for the provision of the 124 main line carriage units coming out of Inchicore. They are necessary and there is a general public demand to have these carriages brought into operation at the earliest possible time. The Minister should not allow any decision to be taken by his colleagues in Government which would in any way endanger or slow down the provision of this new rolling stock.
Some of us are fortunate enough to live west of the Shannon. We have enormous advantages down there which are not available here. We have not got the fierce congestion there is in this city and which frustrates country Deputies. I invite all Deputies to transfer to west of the Shannon. I hope the policy of decentralisation started by Fianna Fáil will be where it should be at this time. Those of us who are fortunate enough to live in the west would like to see a much improved service with mainline rolling stock. We have a one-day super train service to one destination at the weekend in the west through the good offices of the former Minister, but it is not too much to ask CIE and the Minister for a minimum standard coach on all services throughout the whole country. No area should be prefered above another by way of getting better class coaches, or air-conditioned coaches, or AC sets, or whatever you like to call them.
That is not fair. It must be remembered that the people in the west pay their just taxes too. They provide a considerable amount of the revenue that goes to pay the deficit in CIE and to provide the extra capital necessary for all these services. They should not be discriminated against in any way by means of rolling stock. I would like a commitment from the Minister that when these new carriages come from Inchicore a fair share of them will be made available initially on the western runs, Sligo, Westport, Galway and Limerick. That is not too much to expect for the people of the west. I know well that the present Taoiseach did not look too favourably on the Deputies who come from the west in that he could not find it possible to provide them with a voice in the corridors of power which is usually associated with a Mercedes State car. The west has been stripped of its traditional input at Cabinet and middle Cabinet level. Be that as it may, I hope sincerely, despite the fact that the new Taoiseach has seen fit to denude the west of its State car participation in Government, that that will not be used by the administration as a follow-up to deal similarly with the services in the west. Due notice will have to be given now to the Minister and the Government on that score, that if the same kind of treatment is applied as has been applied to the back-benchers of Fine Gael as far as their participation in Government is concerned, it will be resisted with all the force that we can command. I say that on behalf of both sides of this House. Let nobody think that the west is going to be treated in any niggardly way as far as development is concerned or that we are going to be passed over because we have no voice in the corridors of power. In regard to the provision of services and improved services we will be making the best use here of our vocal cords to see to it that our problems are highlighted and that the best available is provided for us.
I would like to think that the carriages that are proposed to become available in 1983 might be moved up. It would be a feather in the Minister's cap if he could make an announcement at an early date that this new rolling stock was being given top priority by him and that he can improve on that date. I recommend that strongly to him because I know it can be achieved. The production line can be got into operation more speedily than was suggested by him here today. Not only would he have the support of the users, the commuters who would be using these services, but they would regard it as a major victory for the Minister personally. We have been waiting too long for these coaches and now that the decision has been taken and we are providing the money for him today, he can give it considerably more attention than 1983 suggests.
I would like to think also that we might develop a more open attitude to new systems on both road and rail. As far as rail is concerned, there are new types of coaches currently being experimented with and used in other countries. The Minister might very well experiment here in a more enlightened way in dealing with some of the lighter gauge coaches that can run at reasonably high speeds with good comfort and less fuel consumption than normally associated with the big power packs with which we pull our sets. A whole range of new concepts is being experimented with right around the world. The Minister should take the opportunity afforded to him now to have a look at some of those new systems and suggest them to CIE. Perhaps he could lead the field in this area of experimentation. We are only a small country but we have a nice, tidy network now which cannot be chopped any further. We should utilise the rail to its maximum advantage, and to date we have not done so. It is hoped that the new commuter services and new systems will be experimented with to provide a better service. If new lines have to be built and new links and equipment provided, then I suggest that the Minister should feel quite free to come in here and ask and he will have our support in providing them.
As far as road services are concerned we have been stagnant in our attitude towards the type of vehicles we use. New type vehicles and a new type construction are being used but they never appear on the roads of Ireland. This is not, as sometimes suggested, because the roads are not capable of carrying these new types of vehicles. I talk about concertina-type vehicles and all kinds of arrangements for ticket-purchasing which involve greater productivity. Maybe there is less manning in certain areas, but let that not cause CIE employees to believe that they are going suddenly to find themselves unemployed. That is the kind of thing that has killed the confidence in security of tenure of a lot of the employees of CIE. If these services improve and if we provide new services, we will be going on the recruitment campaign again. Nothing would instil greater confidence among workers in CIE management than to see themselves diversifying into a new area of operation with new techniques, skills and equipment. It would entice the best productivity from the work force and we would go into a job creation situation. Is that not what it is all about? We are paying the piper anyway so let us have the best available and if money is needed to provide it then let us provide it. Nobody would turn his back on that so long as an improved service is the return.
I see the new Bombardier buses on our streets and roads and I am happy to say that there has not been a continuation of the teething problems that were a source of some minor embarrassment to my colleague, Deputy Reynolds, on one or two occasions. Those troubles are over now. There should not be reluctance to deal with this new technology and I am quite convinced that the work force of CIE are quite prepared to utilise their skills, techniques and ability in dealing with this new technology if somebody would discuss it with them properly. The cause of the unfortunate dispute and the disruption of services here is a minor issue that has escalated due to the intransigence of whoever is responsible for not dealing with it. Surely it was not too much to expect that this teething trouble that is costing us so dearly today would have been foreseen. This new experiment with the Bombardier buses is innovative and to be welcomed. People generally—I mean the vast majority—have given an open welcome to these new buses, and so do I here this evening. I would be happy to know that they will form the basis for a new type bus fleet with better service and better comfort than we have been accustomed to.
As it is necessary to replace buses on a planned basis I would like to think that the new system that was started by Deputy Reynolds in providing the necessary finance and infrastructure to build these buses will be kept up on a planned basis so that we will have a totally new fleet in the shortest possible time with the necessary spares and expertise which will provide the comfort and service levels which the people who are paying this enormous deficit demand. We should not always be negative in our attitudes to providing alternative means in the short-term and at certain peak periods.
I do not think CIE should be reluctant to take on other buses on a hiring or leasing basis. When buses are needed for a job of work and companies make themselves available to provide a service, why do we always say it is going to hurt somebody? It never hurts anybody except the poor people who have to pay and who are given a bad service. If CIE are reluctant or do not have the expertise, equipment or plant to provide the service which is demanded by a section of the community in a particular part of the country, they should be magnanimous enough to say that their work is on behalf of the electorate, who are paying the money—by and large by way of deficit—to provide the best service they can and if that requires hiring or leasing fleets in the short-term let them do it. They should plan to provide the services themselves on the next occasion. That is the best way to maximise the goodwill on behalf of the people who require the service throughout the country. We should not be niggardly in dealing with those who can provide the extras needed on the occasions when CIE cannot provide them.
I note also that permission is being granted to provide CIE with the necessary means of alternative financing. I presume this will also include the leasing of equipment. I am not a great promoter of this type of financial arrangement. I see my colleague, Deputy Reynolds, smiling. Even among the best of friends there are differences of opinion on financial matters. I am not a supporter of this type of financing for which the general public pay by way of taxes. If there are good alternatives available and if they can reduce the burden on the taxpayer, without interfering with the overall ownership and control of the asset, it is worthy of some study. We should tread carefully and move slowly in the area of financing because it can have a debilitating effect on the whole structure of administration and Government.
The McKinsey Report has not, in my opinion, got anything like the attention it deserved. I hope the reason for that is not that people do not regard it as a worthy document. I have some reservations about its usefulness. It was very short on solutions to CIE's problems but was very long on the history of their problems. It was also very long on the closure options which it suggested as a means of dealing with the problems. It would have been preferable if it had been stronger on the solutions and the options for solutions that might be made available to the Government of the day and to the Minister for Transport who would be making recommendations in that regard to the Cabinet.
Public debate is not sufficiently elevated to deal effectively with this matter of general public interest. I cannot see why we have had such sporadic recommendations from the sectional interests involved in public transport development. I would have thought that everybody was eagerly awaiting the production of the McKinsey Report. In the debate we had one side tore it asunder and the other side said we should scrap the whole system. There was no real debate in support of the development of a good public transport system for the country. I hope the Minister will take the initiative in this regard by inviting, and naming if necessary, the various organisations which he would like to get involved in this public debate launched by his predecessor. There must be an enormous number of organisations and institutions who have a valuable contribution to make. I thought there would have been seminars and weekend consultations and negotiations by various sectional interests in dealing with the McKinsey Report so that the Minister would have available to him a good cross section of attitudes in so far as the provision of a good transport system is concerned. That has not happened. Perhaps some of the fault is in the McKinsey Report itself. Before the Minister makes recommendations to his colleagues in Government for a final decision concerning the new system of public transport he should again invite all concerned to apply themselves, perhaps in the autumn, to dealing in a more specific way with what they would like to recommend as the best means of dealing with this problem.
Members who have an interest in public transport—all Members have some interest in dealing with transport matters — will have an opportunity of dealing at length with the McKinsey Report when it comes before the House for final consideration and recommendations. The Minister is at a crossroads in dealing with public transport for the eighties. I am sorry my friend and colleague, Deputy Reynolds, is not in office to proceed on the lines he started because he had a very clear, incisive view on the promotion of public transport and the way it should progress in the eighties. The Minister would be well advised to pay attention to some of the debates to which he contributed in so far as public transport is concerned. In his recommendations and in the promotion of certain activities under the aegis of public transport companies he had in mind a worthwhile and workmanlike attitude towards the provisions of a first-class public transport system. I hope what he started will be given due recognition and that the promotion of a good transport service will be continued by the present administration. His promotion of the Dublin Transport Authority was a major step forward in dealing with what has become a crisis situation daily in our city. The programme he set out and the time scale he allowed himself and the Department for the introduction of the necessary legislation to give effect to this recommendation should be reiterated by the Minister. I regret the Minister did not make reference to that in his speech. I hope the omission was not deliberate because if that was the Minister's intention it would amount to a backward step. I hope the Minister will proceed with all haste with the promotion of that legislation to give the necessary technical and legislative teeth to the Dublin Transportation Authority because it provides the best opportunity to deal effectively with what has become a continuing daily problem.
The task force has been doing admirable work although it is somewhat restricted because it does not have responsibility to deal with all matters concerned with public transport. Now might be a good time, at the start of a new administration, to have a fresh look at the need to isolate certain further responsibilities to the Department of Transport, subsequently to the task force and subsequently to the Dublin Transportation Authority, to have the full effect of implementing the recommendations so absolutely necessary on all fronts concerned with public transport in this city and country.
I take the opportunity of making a further remark regarding some of the suggestions concerning carriages which I neglected to mention when dealing with rolling stock. This concerns what I understand to be the request to have the vast majority of the 124 coaches of the air conditioned type. This would place an enormous financial burden on the overall cost of provision of rolling stock. Some of us are not as convinced as we would like to be that there is an absolute need for fully air conditioned sets running on our railway network. We do not normally have here the extremes of temperature which would apply to latitudes in other areas of the world. Considerably more rolling stock could be made available from the existing resources being provided through this legislation if there was a rethink about the need to install this very expensive equipment in the proposed new rolling stock. That would in no way hold up the provision of the carriages themselves. The flats and super-structures have to be built, anyway. This suggested added comfort might be looked at again as not being necessary for all the rolling stock. This would provide the new Minister with money more needed to provide extra carriages from the same financial allocation. The Minister might consider this at his convenience.
We would also like to think that the assets attached to CIE would be fully utilised. It comes to mind on occasion that there are reasonably large tracts of land—certainly there are some locations — which could be better utilised. A survery should be done of all the properties available to CIE at present and whatever is not needed for their immediate requirements or their planned programmes should either be disposed of or utilised, preferably by CIE, in the provision of other services which might very well be a means of considerable economic resource to CIE by way of extra revenue. I am not one of those people who think that CIE should confine themselves totally and exclusively to providing bus and rail services and nothing else. If they have an opportunity to maximise their assets or locations by providing a service for other people, or in conjunction with other authorities, they should do so. By doing that, they are making the best possible use of the money made available to them by the taxpayer for the purpose of providing the best possible services. That is what we expect from them. If they do that, they will have welcome support from me and, I am quite sure, from the taxpayer who invariably has to pay the piper, anyway. Mar a deir an sean fhocal tús maith leath na hoibre, agus is é mo thuairim go bhfuil tús sár-mhaith déanta ag an iar-Aire Iompair atá ina shuí cóngarach dom anocht. Cuid des na deacrachtaí a bhí sa Roinn Iompair, tá réiteach faighte orthu ag an iar-Aire. Tá fadhbanna ann go fóill, ar ndóigh, agus níl sé thar cumas an Rialtais na fadhbanna sin a réiteach, agus beimid ag fanacht ar na coiscéimeanna a luaigh an tAire Iompair anocht chun deileáil leis na fadhbanna sin. Táimid ag iarraidh freisin air mion-scrúdú a dhéanamh ar na tuairimí atá nochtaithe agamsa agus ag an Teachta Reynolds anseo anocht.
In conclusion, we expect that the good job of work started by Deputy Reynolds will be brought to a happy conclusion and that, as we say down where I come from, the present Minister will be able to harrow as much of the ground as has been ploughed by Deputy Reynolds. It will then go well for the future of public transport.
