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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Jul 1981

Vol. 329 No. 2

Transport Bill, 1981: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is threefold: firstly, to extend the limit on CIE's borrowing powers for capital purposes, secondly, to extend the limit on the board's temporary borrowing powers and, thirdly, to extend the powers of guarantee of the Minister for Finance in relation to borrowings or contract arrangements for the provision of goods and services entered into by CIE.

CIE's capital expenditure is financed from the board's internal resources, mainly depreciation provisions, and from borrowings either from the Exchequer or from such outside sources as may be found attractive. At present the aggregate amount of CIE's capital borrowings at any one time may not exceed £55 million. CIE have now reached the limit of their capital borrowing powers, most of the outstanding borrowings being represented by Exchequer capital advances on which interest is paid by CIE.

It is, therefore, essential to extend CIE's capital borrowing authority to enable the board to proceed with a number of capital projects and to undertake any new projects which may be approved.

The major projects which the board have in hands at the present time are the electrification of the Howth-Bray suburban rail service, the acquisition of 124 mainline carriage units and the renewal of the board's urban and provincial bus fleets. There is also, of course, the provision of commuter rail services linking Maynooth and intermediate points with Connolly Station, but the provision of this service, which is scheduled to commence operations in a few months, does not require large scale capital investment at this stage.

The electrification of the Howth/Bray suburban service, which was approved by the Government in May 1979, will, on its introduction in 1983, represent a major improvement in public transport services for people on the eastern side of the city. Since the late 1960's passenger demand on the Dublin suburban rail services has been increasing—daily carryings on the Howth-Bray section have increased from about 12,500 in 1970 to 34,500 in 1980. The services are at present operated with diesel-hauled refurbished carriages which are due for replacement. In the consideration of the CIE proposal for electrification account was taken of the need to upgrade the existing service in order to attract as many passengers as possible and so make the maximum contribution to the relief of traffic congestion. Considerations which favoured electrification were the desirability of achieving a reduction in dependence on oil, and the environmental benefits offered by an electric system which is pollution free and less noisy than a diesel system.

The electrification project, on which over 200 people are at present employed, is now nearing the halfway stage. It involves the provision of an electrical supply along the line, the provision of new signalling and depot facilities, the opening of two new stations at Sandymount and Salthill and the acquisition of new rolling stock specially designed for commuter needs. The new service will bring about a substantial improvement in the existing service in terms of frequency, speed and passenger comfort. Day-long services will be provided, serving 25 stations on the line, with trains operating at five minute intervals during peak periods reducing to 15 minutes off peak. It is intended also to extend the catchment area of the railway line by the provision of feeder bus services to selected stations. CIE estimate that by 1985 passenger numbers will have increased from the current average of 34,500 per day to about 80,000 per day.

Major improvements of this nature cannot be made without substantial capital investment and in the case of the Howth-Bray electrification scheme the latest estimate of capital cost, largely based on contracts already placed, now stands at £66.4 million at April 1981 prices. This represents a substantial increase on the estimate available at the time the project was approved, which amounted to £46 million approximately at early 1979 prices. While there have been, of course, inevitable variations between actual contract prices and the indicative pre-contract estimates on which the original costings were based, the increase in the capital cost is very substantially attributable to the effects of inflation and currency fluctuations. I should add that it is proposed, in accordance with normal practice, to capitalise interest charges until the project is completed, after which interest will be charged to the revenue account. The total amount of capitalised interest charges is estimated at £16 million at current prices.

I am particularly anxious to ensure that with this project every effort is made to maximise the Irish input of components and services. So far, I am glad to say, it has proved possible to ensure that, apart from the rolling stock, over 50 per cent of the remaining requirements for materials and services is coming from Irish sources.

The second major railway project at present on hands is the provision of new carriages for mainline passenger services. Approval was given earlier this year for the acquisition of 124 mainline carriage units, comprising 94 standard carriages, 15 catering cars and 15 generator vans, to be assembled at the Inchicore works in Dublin. These carriages are needed to enable CIE to provide mainline rail facilities of an acceptable standard of comfort and convenience for all rail passengers. It is expected that over the life of the project employment will be provided at the Inchicore works for an average of 165 men. Every effort will be made to ensure that the maximum possible use will be made of Irish sub-contractors for the supply of goods and services and that the Irish input generally will be maximised. Planning work on the project has commenced and it is hoped that the first carriages will be available to be put into service in 1983. The capital cost of the project is estimated at about £36 million, exclusive of VAT.

The third major item in CIE's capital programme at the present time is the renewal of the board's city and provincial bus fleets. The renewal programme had earlier fallen into arrear because of the time lag between the termination in 1977 of CIE's arrangements for the supply of buses with Van Hool McArdle and the establishment of the new Bombardier bus building factory at Shannon. The new factory, at which production commenced last August, is now giving valuable employment to some 300 people. CIE have already taken delivery of 20 singledeck buses for use on the provincial services, 30 coaches for the board's tour operations and the first of the 135 double-deck buses to be delivered this year for use in the Dublin city area. There have been some initial teething problems with the new buses but I understand that these are relatively minor and are being quickly resolved. Because of the backlog in CIE's bus replacement programme the board's requirement for new buses for a few years will be unusually high. The total capital allocation for new buses in CIE's capital programme for 1981 is £18.5 million and CIE's forecasts for the years immediately ahead envisage expenditure continuing at a high level.

The three projects which I have mentioned combined with the board's normal capital programme clearly require a substantial revision of the limit applicable to CIE's capital borrowing as the board's depreciation provisions would fall far short of the expenditure involved. It has, therefore, been decided to set a new limit of £180 million in respect of capital borrowings, that is, an increase of £125 million on the existing limit. In addition the Bill provides for an increase in the limit on the guarantees which can be given by the Minister for Finance under the State Guarantees (Transport) Acts in respect of contracts for the provision of goods and services entered into by CIE. This will allow greater scope for exploring alternative arrangements for the financing of CIE's programme — for instance, leasing of equipment, which might provide worthwhile opportunities for financing investment in transport. The increased borrowing and guarantee arrangements provided for in the Bill will enable CIE to proceed with the projects I have mentioned in the years immediately ahead and to undertake any new projects which may be approved. Additional finance may have to be authorised in a few year's time and the introduction of the necessary legislation will provide an opportunity for further review of CIE's capital programme by Dáil Éi-reann. Furthermore, the intervening period will give time within which consideration of the McKinsey Report on CIE can be completed and a start made on implementing whatever decisions arise from that consideration.

I should make it clear that the Government are very conscious of the necessity for adequate and efficient public transport services for economic and social purposes. It is, of course, essential that these services should be provided in the most cost effective manner possible, taking account of the social and economic needs of the community as a whole. It is on this basis that the Government will be considering how public transport services can best be organised.

As I indicated at the outset, the present Bill also provides for an increase in CIE's temporary borrowing powers which at present are limited to £5 million under the Transport Act, 1974. This figure is now insufficient in the light of the inflation which has occurred since the 1974 Act was passed. CIE's expenditure on operating account has increased from £65 million in 1973-74 to £200 million in 1980, while the Exchequer subvention increased from £10.75 million to £70 million in the same period. It is proposed, therefore, to increase CIE's temporary borrowing powers to £20 million so as to provide a safeguard to tide the board over any shor-term cash difficulties such as unforeseen losses in revenue or increases in expenditure. The inadequacy of the figure of £5 million was evident in 1979 when, because of increased labour and oil costs and the effects of industrial disputes, a Supplementary Estimate had to be introduced for CIE at short notice before the summer recess to ensure that the board would have sufficient cash to meet their requirements.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I take this opportunity of congratulating you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, on your elevation to such a high office. I have known you since I became a Member of this House to be a man of honour and fair play and I have no doubt that you will discharge your duties honourably in dealing with Members from all sides of this House.

I also take the opportunity to express good wishes to my constituency colleague, Deputy Cooney, on his appointment as Minister for Transport and Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I extend to him good wishes for his success in those very onerous duties.

I welcome this Bill. It was prepared during my last days in office and I recognise the necessity for introducing it at this time. I fully subscribe to the view that CIE need an extension of their borrowing powers for capital purposes if they are to proceed in the fastest possible manner in the development of major projects in hand. I also recognise the need for increasing temporary borrowing for CIE and am fully aware of the reasons behind the drafting of this Bill.

My party have always recognised the need to invest in transport infrastructure and in my short term as Minister for Transport I fully subscribed to that view and did everything possible to advance the situation. Our investment plan and our development programme for the eighties underline the vital necessity for the development of our total infrastructure and particularly the transport infrastructure. CIE have embarked on three major projects to develop this transport infrastructure. The electrification of the Howth-Bray line approved in 1979 and expected to be completed early in 1983 will certainly make a very significant contribution to the alleviation of some of the congestion on those routes. I fully support the electrification project. It is a much cleaner and faster system and I have no doubt that following the introduction of this service in 1983 there will be demand for more electrification. The completion of this project, together with the proposed feeder services into that line, will demonstrate the beneficial effect of an efficient commuter line in the development of Dublin city and county. When feeder buses are in operation I have no doubt that commuters will avail of the opportunity of leaving their cars at home and using the excellent public transport system which will be provided. It is forecast that the frequency of services will be sufficient to cater for the increasing number of passengers which CIE expect to carry.

A second major project on which CIE have embarked is the replacement of their bus fleet and the re-engining of the existing fleet. I have had very personal experience of the teething problems which occurred on the introduction of the first new buses. Nevertheless those who have used the new buses have praised the very comfortable design. Let us hope we will see more of the double-deckers which have recently come on the Dublin streets.

In our investment programme and development plan for the eighties we laid stress on the need to provide this new fleet of buses, the electrification of the Howth-Bray line and many other projects. We all recognise the need for new buses in the Dublin area but we must examine the contribution which poor buses have made to the morale within CIE which, I am sure the Minister will agree, is on the floor. We must consider how to lift that morale because this must be done if CIE are to make the contribution which is desired by every Member of this House. I am not pointing the finger of blame but we know that CIE have not had any new buses since the collapse of the Van Hool McArdle project. Can anyone here imagine the frustration of a bus driver attempting to drive a vehicle which is in poor condition through the chaotic traffic of Dublin? What will be his mental attitude to the job and what reaction will he have to those of us who have responsibility in these matters? These are some of the reasons for CIE's industrial problems. It is vital for us to examine every area that contributes to this sort of situation including the mental attitude of workers, city bus drivers and conductors to the job.

I was glad to be on the streets of Dublin on the first morning on which bus lanes were introduced to note the satisfaction of the CIE workers at being able to get a free run through the traffic chaos. If we continue to implement this programme of bus lanes we will see a vast improvement in the service. Against all the odds and the critics we have been successful so far in the introduction of bus lanes in the city. The critics pointed back to the Fairview bus lane of 1970 and to the disaster that was and said that it would be impossible to introduce bus lanes successfully. The opposite is the case and I salute everybody involved in the introduction of bus lanes. The introduction of bus lanes will contribute to better industrial relations in CIE as will the provision of more new buses. The fact that a man will have the right tool for the job and the proper environment in which to work will make him much happier and more efficient and will provide him with job satisfaction. A more reliable bus service would encourage people who bring their cars, because they have no choice, to leave them at home and this will relieve the traffic congestion in the city. We cannot ask men to do a job without the proper tools and without the proper environment in which to operate. That has been my philosophy during my short term as Minister.

It is impossible for a Minister, especially one who was there only for a short time, to see all his plans come to fruition. But I am satisfied that the objectives we set out to achieve have been started along the road and I look forward to the Minister ensuring progress with these objectives.

When we talk about increasing the borrowing powers of CIE for capital purposes and about increasing their borrowing powers in relation to temporary borrowings we are basically talking about how the money will be spent. The view in this House is unanimous on the need to provide adequate capital for the development of transport infrastructure, but we as public representatives and custodians of the public purse have to be satisfied that we are getting the best value for money. We must keep a critical eye on how money is being spent.

About 50 per cent of the money being spent on the electrification of the Howth-Bray line is being spent in the State on products produced here. That is a healthy development. I realise that we must go abroad for equipment such as rolling stock that is not available here, but that will only be a once-off expenditure with the development of coach building at Inchicore. When this new rolling stock comes into service CIE can study the technology that will have to be available to repair it and they can develop the technology to provide additional rolling stock as the years go by.

We all agree that the maximum amount of the money spent by CIE should be spent here. For far too long we have bought foreign goods which could be made at home. We should not export jobs that we could have at home. As Minister I had the privilege and honour of opening an exhibition of CIE's stores requirements in Dublin in recent weeks. I was amazed at the interest taken by various people, entrepreneurs, would-be manufacturers and existing manufacturers, who saw there an opportunity either to expand their present range of products or to engage in new undertakings to ensure that the requirements of CIE are produced as far as possible from the resources of the State.

We have a fine workforce, people with ideas and the technical skills, and we only need to avail of those opportunities. It is the duty and responsibility of every State body to afford Irish people the opportunity to supply home produced products so that money spent in the development of transport infrastructure or whatever is spent at home. In that way we can make a decent contribution to our job requirements because the jobs situation will become even more critical as the years go by. As a Minister in another Department I saw the benefits that can accrue to small outlying places when they get the opportunity to make products for big boards such as CIE. I am glad that the CIE exhibition will be put on at various major centres to ensure that everybody has an opportunity to see it.

When public money is being spent on CIE the cynics say that it is money down the drain. We have a responsibility to ensure that everybody has the opportunity to avail of the resources and to keep them in circulation here so as to make a worthwhile contribution to the economy.

I am very interested in the re-establishment of coach building in Inchicore. As Minister I visited the coachbuilding plant and was impressed by the skills and crafts available there which had been left untapped for a long time. Those skills should be further harnessed so as to make a better contribution to CIE. The apprentice school there is one of our finest schools and we can use that to make a bigger contribution towards providing skills that are scarce on the Irish scene. I am glad that this Bill will enable money to be provided for the mainline rolling stock that is required. Criticisms about the deteriorating condition of the mainline carriages were levelled at the Department when I was Minister.

We must recognise also that until the full examination being carried out has been completed it would be foolhardy of anybody to say we are going along with a specific project until it is known what will be the actual requirements. I am not saying that the requirement for which moneys will be provided in Inchicore is the full requirement. But at least it is the present requirement and the sooner it goes onto the mainline trains the better. We know that going south they have the advantage of better carriages than we have going west, or those going north-west either. Indeed the sooner we see rolling stock out of that area the better for all of us and indeed the better will be the picture of CIE in that area.

In relation to the buses and the situation about buses in Dublin, I believe that CIE are judged by and large by their Dublin city services, good or bad. Rarely do we hear complaints of any great substance about CIE's operations through-out the country in relation to the railways or other aspects of their business. I believe that the railwayman has always enjoyed a tradition of his own. People in authority should recognise that the railwayman has this tradition, that he has this commitment to the railway, part and parcel of what he, his father and perhaps his grandfather worked at. Undoubtedly, this tradition exists in the railway section of CIE. Families carried on this tradition, something which should be fostered.

Looking at the total operations of CIE in relation to the McKinsey Report, I would ask the Minister to bear in mind these different traditions within CIE which I would hope would guide him in the right direction. What he and the Government may decide is their business. But from my short experience as Minister and indeed during my time working as an employee with CIE I believe that the commitment to and tradition obtaining in the railway section can be fostered and put to better use in the future. That is why I believe that the railway component of CIE should be a separate one, when a better performance would be shown, given the proper tools for the job.

In regard to the buses, I believe a different commitment and tradition exists. How could anybody reasonably attack a busman in Dublin for his attitude to the job, forced on him through existing circumstances and under which he is expected to work, furthermore bearing in mind the tools with which he is supplied? We hear complaints and letters in the paper to the effect that the Dublin bus drivers or conductors are not what they were years ago. We must remember that we in this House over the years have had the responsibility of creating the conditions that have made those men what they are today.

I had the experience of sitting around the table for a very long meeting with the group of unions involved in CIE. It was the greatest insight for me in regard to how those people think, work and what they expect from the Minister, his Department and the Government of the day. They have a full appreciation of the problems involved. They also have a full appreciation of the yardstick by which CIE in total are judged, which is basically the standard of their Dublin city services. I was very impressed by many things I learned at that meeting.

That is why I said in the House earlier that I believe those people should be involved in discussions with the Minister for Transport, if necessary accompanied by the Minister for Labour, when he will learn much more in relation to those people and their problems. They too have problems, which can be recognised. They are prepared to listen to the other side of the story, because to every story there are two sides. Until somebody sits down and listens to both sides no rational judgment can be taken. I was amazed to detect, in the course of a three-and-a-half hour meeting with them, a fair amount of distrust between management and the trade union movement within CIE. That is a terrible state of affairs. If that is the real case, I say this, recognise it for what it is. There is no point in leaving the problem there to fester. It will not solve itself. Strikes will not go away. They will have to be solved and there is no point in standing back from them. Somebody should go in there and listen, as I listened, and learn what I learned, which was a great help to me in the way I approached various aspects of the operations of CIE.

We are today talking about increasing the borrowing powers of CIE in two areas. Yet the people, the customers — I call them customers — of the national transport company must either walk to and from work or take taxis. These customers are fellow workers, people not in a position financially to take taxis to and from their employment. If they are late for work or must take taxis and are short of money at the end of the week, who are they to blame? Yet we here are charged with the duty and responsibility of using public money to provide Dublin city and county services. The public looking in here today must be asking themselves these questions. What are they doing about it? When can we expect service to be restored? On what are they spending more and more money? Is it pouring more and more good money down the drain? What can we expect to get in return?

We cannot get away from the fact that the taxpayers are paying money for a service they are not receiving — a service to which they are entitled — and they are further entitled to tell us that it is our duty and responsibility to so provide. When such people listen to the reports of the proceedings of this House today, can they go to bed happy in the knowledge that we even care about their problems, care about how they will get into work tomorrow, care if they ever get to work again, or if this city is to be deprived? Do we care about the drop in business in the city centre? Do we care that business is down 50 per cent? They must also ask if we care that, at this time of the year when extra staff are engaged, young school-leavers' jobs may be in jeopardy? If we do care, are we really demonstrating to the public that we do care and are prepared to do something about it? Those are the realities as they see them. They are paying their money and getting nothing for it. If this is allowed to continue, young people's jobs will be endangered.

From my knowledge of the complex industrial relations problems and situations that are part and parcel of CIE to-day my fear would be, not that the situation would not be resolved this evening but that it would escalate, when we could encounter an even larger problem next week when we come to talk about it again. I have always firmly believed in the philosophy that if one nips a problem in the bud one can then deal with people before they get into entrenched positions. It is much more difficult to take people out of entrenched positions, especially if they feel, perhaps incorrectly, they are being deprived of their wages and being pushed around. I can assure the House that when one comes to review such a situation in two or three weeks' time it will be ten times more difficult to find a solution.

I am not playing politics with this situation. It is one which should be examined closely, grappled with and, if the Minister feels he should be accompanied by his colleague, the Minister for Labour, in discussions with the Congress of Trade Unions, who have a most responsible approach to existing problems, he should so arrange. They fully recognise the Minister's problems also, realise that the pressure is on the Minister and the Government of the day to ensure that something is done. They fully appreciate also that every time there is a strike or threat-ened strike in CIE public confidence is further eroded. They too want to make a constructive contribution. At a recent meeting with them I went into the various ways that could be achieved. I know many discussions have taken place in relation to what I would term a peace concordat for CIE, which I believe is badly needed. It is needed now more than it was ever needed before.

The public have a contribution to make if they want a good bus service to enable them to travel to work, to do their business or for any other reason. The Dáil has a contribution to make and the Government of the day also have a contribution to make. We need that peace concordat. I believe we were well down the road towards that in recent times. There will always be some awkward people along the way who take a little more convincing that this is the right thing to do. I believe it is the right thing to do and I also believe there are many in the trade union movement who believe it is the right thing to do. I believe only a small number do not want this. I urge the Minister to do everything possible to get a peace concordat and to ensure that workers cannot switch off the service to the public. The customers will eventually get sick and tired of not having a service. Dáil Éireann and the Government will eventually get tired of paying out money because we cannot go along in a blank cheque situation.

I was accused of fiddling around with figures when a certain deficit was set this year. Everybody should realise that many things contributed to that deficit. It is within the power of many parts of that organisation to reduce that deficit and it was my responsibility as Minister to point out those areas to them. The Minister will have information available to show what industrial strife has cost that organisation in any particular year he wants to look at. He will see the extra subvention which was necessary. The Minister should do everything possible to get a peace concordat and a full commitment from all the members that they will not tolerate a few people messing up the entire organisation and leaving their fellow workers without a way of coming to work. They should realise at this particular time of the year the damage they are doing to our tourist industry. We need a bus strike in Dublin in the midst of the tourist season like we need a hole in the head. It is time we did something about it and it is time the workers in that organisation got the message.

When one detects a breakdown in trust between management and unions in an organisation one is on the road to a very dangerous situation. I detected that in this organisation at a few meetings which I attended. I tested it out privately with workers outside the organisation. If something is not done about that mistrust we are heading for trouble. That organisation must show to the people that they can do the job. A new way forward in industrial relations must be found or the Government will have to decide where this organisation goes in the future.

I am sure that organisation will be considering the McKinsey Report when all the submissions from the various interested parties are received. They should look very closely at that report. The best day's work that could be done would be to break up that monolithic organisation into small units and give identity to the workers who are down below so that they will know who they are working for and can identify with their bosses. Morale would then improve in that organisation. If that monolithic organisation is broken up commitment to the job will be restored. The railway man will have commitment to the railway and the busman will have commitment to the bus, particularly when he has bus lanes in which he can freely operate. I believe they will all want to do their jobs better when they get the opportunity. This is a very challenging job. It is no accident that when McKinsey wrote the report on this organisation they called it the transport challenge opportunities of the eighties. The opportunities and the challenges are there. I know the challenges are not easy but the right thing to do is always hard. I believe the challenges must be taken up. I hope this House will have the opportunity of debating where this large organisation should go.

We should not stand back from the challenge of creating a better environment for industrial relations, which is of paramount importance to the success of that organisation and the jobs in that organisation. We are providing the resources to develop the other parts of the transport infrastructures which are badly needed. Money is being provided for the electrification of the Howth-Bray line, the mainline carriages and the commuter services which I introduced some months ago. I hope those will be brought on stream as soon as possible. Those who travel to Dublin from the west know the volume of traffic there is on that road with people driving their cars in and out to work. We know that those people would be only too glad to use a commuter rail service. I hope we will reach the stage when people who drive their cars or vans from Maynooth through Leixlip, Lucan, on to Blanchardstown and into Connolly Station will be able to use the commuter rail service. This would make a significant contribution to the relief of traffic congestion on that road.

Bus lanes are a great way forward in relation to giving the man on the bus a greater satisfaction and giving the customer the opportunity of trying out public transport in ideal conditions. There is an incredible amount of illegal parking going on in the city but I believe, with the increased number of traffic wardens and the effective action they are taking, a good start has been made. The effort must be kept up and intensified. We badly need more car parks in this city. I am glad to see that the one in Mary Street will soon be on stream. I hope the Minister will push his colleague in the Department of the Environment to ensure that the corporation car parks, two of which have already been designated, are pushed forward as soon as possible. The people who bring their cars into the city are entitled to find a place to park them.

Many decisions have been taken in regard to the development of this city. I believe the one which will prove to be the best in the long run is the decision of the previous Government to set up a Dublin Transportation Authority. We all know that responsibility in relation to traffic congestion in the city, the implementation of the law in relation to parking and to commercial vehicles is spread between various authorities, the Department of Justice, the Garda Síochána, Dublin Corporation and the Department of the Environment. Everybody looked to the Department of Transport to sort out the various problems.

A very important decision was taken to establish a Dublin Transportation Authority to bring together all those duties and functions within a single body. This is a milestone along the right road. I know that the officials in the Department of Transport are pushing ahead with that legislation. The sooner we have it in the House the better.

Another report is due on the Minister's desk soon, this month or next, on the future role of road freight transport. The body responsible for that report, under the chairmanship of Professor Michael McCormick, are to be complimented on the excellent work they have done. The report will be vital to the whole discussion that will have to be engaged in in relation to public transport policy in the eighties. When he has received that report I hope the Minister will ensure that there will be a full discussion in the House on the various reports, including McKinsey, because it is only after all the data has been assembled that we will be able to decide on the right road forward. I hope the Minister will give every Member of the House an opportunity to put views on the record. Naturally, we do not expect the Minister to agree with all of them but their contributions can be of value.

I spoke of Dublin city traffic problems and possible solutions and I suggest that when these solutions have been tried out here they can be applied to other urban areas like Cork and Limerick where there is traffic chaos at peak times. Solutions tried out here can be of benefit to other cities.

I wish the Minister well in his deliberations on these matters. When I say I welcome the Bill I can assure the Minister that I and other Members on this side support the Bill fully. However, though we realise the importance of the Bill and that the money must be provided, we must be vigilant to ensure that we will get the best value for the money, that we will get the best possible service for the public, many of whom have been driven away from public transport. We want to see the pride returning to public transport. If we provide the money we are entitled to demand value for that money by way of efficient services.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I congratulate you on your election to that position. Knowing you for a number of years I believe that you will carry out your duties fairly and efficiently. I am sure you appreciate why I did not vote for you. I hope you will occupy the position for at least four and a half years.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. He has a much more difficult task ahead than you, Sir, a very onerous one, but we know Deputy Cooney's ability as a Minister. I hope he, too will occupy that position for at least four and a half or possibly five years.

I welcome the Bill. It is important that CIE should be put on a proper basis, that they should have a much better public image than they have had in the recent past. I do not travel much now by CIE but in my early years in the city I used the Dublin bus service many times daily. In the forties and fifties the public image of CIE was far better than it is today. Many of us here and outside have put forward many reasons for this deterioration.

I am glad to see that the Howth-Bray line electrification is being kept on programme. Strikes can occur to delay progress but I hope the Minister will do everything in his power to ensure that that programme will be completed as soon as possible because it will be of tremendous benefit to the public using that line.

I have another reason for hoping that this work will be completed speedily and that it will be the success people expect it to be. I hope some day soon to see the areas I represent, Tallaght, Clondalkin and Lucan, being connected to the city by a line which, I hope, will be an electrified line. I am sure the Minister will examine closely the problems to be faced in connection with such a project. It involves extending the Lucan line through Clondalkin to Tallaght. The local authority have made a land reservation order to faciliate this extension and I regret that we did not make some progress and come up with some definite proposals on it in the past five or six years. This proposed line will facilitate extensive residential areas in Tallaght and Clondalkin and I plead with the Minister to have a look at it as soon as possible. I hope he will ensure that any problems in this connection will be resolved speedily and that an early decision will be made.

There are a few more points I should like to make on this Bill, although the Minister would like to get it and other legislation through the House tonight and tomorrow. Part of the constituency I represent basically concerns the entire County Dublin area. While similar areas in other counties are adequately served — and the Chair had a hand in providing school buses to transport children in remote areas to schools three or more miles from their homes — I find in County Dublin that there is a vast expanse of mountainous and rural areas which cannot be served by the school bus service. It is frowned upon if one looks for a school bus service in the Dublin area. The service was intended for areas outside Dublin but in fact there are people living in remote areas in County Dublin who are far worse off than many who can avail of a bus service to schools. Very many children live in the glens of Glencullen, Glenasmole, Ballinascorney and such areas. The Chair is aware of these areas because I had occasion to make representations regarding them to him in his capacity as Minister some time ago. I ask the new Minister to look at this matter and see if he can relieve the pressure and hardship that people concerned undergo.

A year or so ago one person put it to me that if they were to send their children to a school in Wicklow — they live close to the Wicklow border — they would be entitled to a free bus service but sending the children to County Dublin schools meant they were not entitled to the service. Many of them do not seek a free service but simply transportation from the home to the school. I ask the Minister to see if he can persuade CIE to extend their regular service to take in as many of these areas as possible. I did my best during the term of office as Minister of the present Leas-Cheann Comhairle and during his predecessor's time and I have failed but so long as I am in the House each time there is a new Minister in a position to do something about this problem I shall feel obliged to mention it. I hope this is the last time I shall have to mention it.

Hundreds of families now being transferred — transplanted would scarcely be the right word to use — from centre city areas to County Dublin suffer the first few years in their new homes. Most of them have lived, deprived of much of the normal facilities most of us have, in the city for many years in expectation of being allocated a house removed from the city. Many of them travel to see where these homes are being built. They view the houses and look forward with great anticipation to getting one, thinking that when they get their new home their lives will be transformed. They overlook the fact that there will be no transportation for them to and from work or to schools for their children.

I plead with the Minister — I know it will involve consultation with other Departments and bodies — to ensure as far as possible that CIE extend the service to such people. In one instance many of them live one and a half miles from the nearest shop; hundreds of families were transferred there in a matter of a month or two. They have to live in deplorable conditions in beautiful houses. They make every effort to make their homes comfortable with furnishing and carpets but once they leave home they must travel one and a half miles to the nearest shop. In one instance in Tallaght, in my constituency, they have to travel one mile to the nearest public transport. This has caused great hardship because many a breadwinner left his employment in the city because of not having regular public transport to and from work. CIE should not ignore this fact.

Many other bodies and Government Departments are brought together to ensure that development of an area is properly regulated and mostly things move smoothly but when it comes to public transport many families have had to approach me to ask if I could possibly get them a transfer back to the city because they have no public transport. I think the Chair is well aware of this, as perhaps the Minister may also be, but I ask the Minister on the first available opportunity to make a tour of the areas of County Dublin with, perhaps, the district manager of CIE, and see where bus services are available, the extent of them and the extent of development outside CIE services.

Conditions in CIE which caused much trouble in the past have been mentioned by Deputy Reynolds and I agree with him to a great extent that much of the trouble is caused by frustration — the frustration of bus crews in getting through the terrible traffic conditions in Dublin city — but not all of it. I should like the Minister to interest himself in the time it now takes a bus to get from outlying areas of Santry or Terenure into the city and the time it took five or ten years ago for the same journey. If he looks at the figures on those lines he will realise the amount of frustration there is for bus crews and passengers. This drives many a person away from public transport and makes the position much worse because people are using cars to come into the city and are being allowed to park indiscriminately — another point mentioned by Deputy Reynolds.

I do not know if this matter has been adequately handled. We have been told of the appointment of additional traffic wardens but I am not sure that this is proving as effective as expected. For instance, coming here at lunch time there were three cars illegally parked as one enters Grafton Street. Cars are constantly parked in that area holding up traffic. This is only one small area of the city but it is happening hundreds of times daily throughout the city during business hours. Such illegal parking holds up the buses and the traffic and frustrates bus crews and passengers.

I was glad to hear Deputy Reynolds refer to the mistrust that exists between management and staff of CIE but I do not think he went far enough to trace the reasons for this mistrust. There may be several reasons but from discussions I have had with CIE employees over the years I have learned of their concern because the upper levels in the company were used for political reasons and political pay-offs. That is to be regretted. I am not suggesting that that is so today but certainly it was the position in the past. A lot of the trouble in CIE stems from that. It is widely known, and generally accepted, that 20 or 30 years ago jobs were created in CIE as political pay-offs. That caused mistrust among the staff. When promotions arose they were filled on a political basis. I hope that comes to an end. I am not suggesting that many of those appointments, whether they were made on a political basis or not, were not good ones but if the political aspect was the main criteria for appointment within CIE it is doubtful if the best qualified people were duly rewarded. I hope that system of appointment has come to an end and that the Minister will make every effort to put CIE on a sound basis and improve their public image.

Lastly I should like to make a plea to the Minister to take action to relieve the hardship being experienced by those living in Clondalkin, Tallaght, Templeogue and Firhouse because of the absence of the public transport service. Today two people told me that they were unable to get to their place of employment because the buses were not running. I am aware that the Minister is under pressure and is continuously monitoring the situation and for that reason I do not wish to say too much about the present dispute. I am sure the Minister realises the hardship being endured by the people in my constituency. Many of those people cannot get to their places of employment in the city. The Minister is also aware that the city centre traders made a case yesterday for an early solution to the dispute but my concern is for those living in outlying areas who are finding it almost impossible to get to their employment. I would be slow to suggest to the Minister — certainly publicly — the steps he should take but I have no doubt that he is in close touch with the situation. If the strike continues much longer I hope the Minister will take action to ensure that those living in areas like Clondalkin, Tallaght and other outlying areas will have some means of transport to their places of employment in the city centre.

I should like to compliment the Leas-Cheann Comhairle on his election. Why would I not vote for him? Was he not a colleague of mine on the city council for many years? I have been involved in the Northern Ireland question since 1960 and I only met Deputy Harte on my first day in the Dáil. I know he has been involved in that matter also. We all seem to be giving advice to the new Minister for Transport and I am sure he will listen to what we have to say. I have been involved in issues relating to CIE for many years and as Members are aware I do not pay any increase in fares. My dispute is with the management of CIE because they do not manage the land resources of the company properly. I should like to compliment Deputy Reynolds on his contribution. The fact that he brought his entrepreneurial skills into CIE meant a great awakening of the potential the company have as a public transport authority for Dublin. He made one point which was very relevant when he stressed that CIE's requirements should be met, as far as possible, from their own resources. CIE have railway stations in Dublin and throughout the country that are economically under-utilised land resources. The only time they come to light is when the train stops at them. There should be a policy by CIE management, in partnership with the planning authority, to comprehensively develop those railway stations throughout the country. If there was a planning policy the land value of the stations would increase ten fold compared with land value in the rest of the country.

In Toronto they made a conscious decision to develop comprehensively the land resources at railway stations, and future stations. The result was that when they wanted a rapid rail system they did not have to wonder where they would get the money. They were able to use the land resources they had as collateral with the financial institutions who provided the money to build an underground system which cost in excess of £1,000 million for that city which is twice the size of Dublin. At Connolly Station there is a 28 acre site controlled by the Dublin Port and Docks Board. The board are anxious to develop on that site and CIE have land beside it. The board negotiated with CIE management stating that they wanted the CIE ramp as part of their development but all the management in the company could say was, "Be sure we have access into Connolly Station in this development". The management, if it was running a private enterprise corporation, would have pointed out that the ramp and the site at Connolly Station were very important with great potential for development. The management should have suggested that the site be developed jointly for the benefit of those who avail of CIE services and employees of the company.

The management in CIE seem to think that the taxpayer in the end will pay the price. A similar situation exists in other areas. In Galway the developers want to take over Eyre Square. CIE have land overlooking Galway Bay and it would be nice to have a comprehensive office block overlooking that bay leaving Eyre Square alone. In Ballina the urban district council wanted an office block and they decided to erect it adjacent to the town square. There were objections to that. CIE wanted to develop their railway station for the Asahi Plant but the company did not think of asking the local authority to erect the office block at the railway station. The land associated with railway stations throughout the country is economically under-utilised. That land could be used as collateral with the financial institutions to give CIE the wherewithal to expand their services to the public. In talking about the various capital projects we must not forget that employees of the company must at all times feel that there is job security for themselves, their children and grandchildren. If there was such a commitment to public transport we might get a better service from CIE.

I should like to make a number of points about the bus lanes and the design of the new buses. I should like to know why the bus lanes were not put on the other side of the road running contra to the flow of traffic in the mornings. That would involve a different design of bus but it would mean that there would be three lanes of traffic with a bus lane free of traffic going to the city and vice versa in the evening. That would help in terms of management of traffic.

Taxis should also have the right to go into these bus lanes, particularly when they are not full of buses, because they are providing an essential public service. It would also help if car owners carrying three other passengers had the right to drive in bus lanes. The object of the exercise is to try to get more people to leave their cars at home and to get more people to use a few cars and public transport. That is just an idea on the bus lanes.

In relation to persons using CIE and person entitled to free travel, particularly old age pensioners and others, it is not right that such people, having lived their lives and paid their taxes, should at this stage be faced with time schedules and asked for fares if they get on a bus five minutes before the scheduled times for free transport. These people should be entitled to their free travel. CIE should provide enough buses and they could afford to do this if they developed their land resources at railway stations as part of the overall approach towards giving us efficient public transport.

In relation to electrification of railway lines this could be done right through the country to Galway, Cork and Kerry, Limerick, Sligo, Ballina and the like. In relation to the electrification of the Howth railway line I would like to remind the CIE management that it is not good enough to come in and start developing the railway stations there because they are going to electrify the railway line. They must remember that they are interfering with the local people who live in the area of the station. For instance, there are problems at Donaghmede. CIE seem to get on with the job, literally creating havoc for the local people without consulting with them. They should consult with the local people and explain that there may be some problems but that they will clear them up as soon as possible.

Those are just some thoughts I have at the moment. I understand we will be debating CIE and its problems later on.

A Cheann Comhairle, is mian liom mo chomhghairdeas a dhéanamh leat as ucht an ghnó nua atá faighte agat. Chraith mé lámh leat cheana féin ach is mian liom ag an am seo mo chomhghairdeas freisin a dhéanamh leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle, an Teachta Tunney, as ucht é a bheith toghta mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle inniu. Tá taithí fíor-leathan ag an mbeirt agaibh ar bhuan orduithe an Tí seo agus ar ndóigh ar na mion-rialacha freisin atá ag baint le gnó sa Teach. Tá an bheirt agaibh díreach in bhur ngníomhartha poiblí agus sna tuairimí a nocht sibh ins an Teach le blianta anuas. Tá mé fíor-chinnte go dtabharfaidh sibh cothrom na Féinne do chuile dhuine sa Teach seo sna díospóireachtaí a bheidh ar siúl sna blianta atá le teacht. Gura fada buan an bheirt agaibh. Tá gnó fíor-thábhachtach le déanamh agaibh agus tá mé ag súil go n-eireoidh go geal libh sna postanna nua atá faighte agaibh.

I am pleased to join with my colleague Deputy Reynolds in welcoming the Bill placed before us this evening by the new Minister for Transport. I would also like to be recorded as wishing Deputy Cooney every success with his new portfolio as Minister for Transport. He is a man of considerable experience in parliamentary matters and it is expected that he will give his very keen attention to all matters concerning transport and that the transport system and the country at large will benefit from that experience.

I am glad indeed to be able to support the Second Stage of this Transport Bill. I believe it is a result of the commitment of the previous administration to improving the transport system generally. It is important to recognise right away that there was a very strong commitment in the last Government to bringing about a transport system that would be as good if not better than anything that might be available in this part of western Europe. I have said before — and it is rather pleasant to get the opportunity again this evening to put it on the record — that I am convinced that we need a strategic transport system and that the existing rail network forms an integral part of that strategic system. It would be very improper, and would be resisted nationally with all the resources available to local communities and indeed to this party, if there was any plan to further restrict or to further chop up the existing railway network. Indeed there are suggestions by various authorities and interested parties that this might be a suitable time to consider the reopening of some of the unused or under-utilised parts of the railway network in various parts of the country. It can be fairly stated now that decisions taken in the past to reduce the effective railway network and decisions taken to close railway stations in the past have proved unwise. So in the new programming and planning of the transport network care must be taken not to move again towards closure for the sake of expediency or for the sake of short-term saving on the public purse. This has proved faulty in the past and in my opinion would prove faulty again.

There has been a very strong commitment to the improvement of the infrastructure as far as public transport is concerned over the past four years typified by the action of the previous Minister for Transport and the Department of Transport. I would nearly go so far as to suggest that the Department of Transport has taken on a new role in the politics and administration of this country in the recent past. It is hoped that that new impetus which was so evident in the past 18 months to two years will continue to be the responsibility of the new administration. I have always felt that the Department of Transport should be one of the premier Departments in that it affects all citizens in one way or another. For a number of years it was a quiet, backwater Department. That should not be so. If it is necessary to change rules or regulations or to give that Department new responsibilities to enable it to live up to what it should be — a real, dynamic administration of transport — those decisions should be taken and hopefully the start that was made will be improved upon by this new administration.

People like to talk about the transport system as though they never had any relation to it. But it must be remembered that it is our transport system and that CIE is our organisation charged with the responsibility under Statute of running the system on our behalf. With the coming of the various reports before the Government that Deputy Reynolds referred to earlier, perhaps it might be the time to have a new and enlightened reappraisal of all the responsibilities of the Department of Transport. Maybe the time is opportune to look at what new responsibilities should be given to the Department to make it the effective vehicle it should be in promoting the infrastructure of both rail and road services and other related transport services here. When one refers to the global term of transport matters one should be concerned with the whole operation of transport at all levels — rail, road, sea and air. There is a marked omission in the responsibilities of the Department. Perhaps now is the time to make the necessary readjustments to bring under the umbrella of the Department of Transport all the various responsibilities attached to public transport generally. Until that pattern of events takes place, until that nettle is grasped by the Government of the day, there will be no real global, worthwhile effort to improve the total transport system. A start has been made in that area and I would expect the new Minister to continue on those lines.

For a long number of years CIE bashing has been a popular pastime in Ireland — I noted a certain amount of this here again this evening — as if CIE were some organisation that one should knock at every available opportunity while ignoring the fact that the company act on our behalf, spend our money and are supposed to provide for us the best services possible. This favourite pastime both on the part of politicians and of other sectional interests has a demoralising effect on the whole organisation and has been counterproductive in the past in terms of improving the transport network and services.

We like to think that all the blame should fall first on management as if in some way they were divorced from the whole organisation and operation of CIE and that all the wrongs and evils should be visited first on their heads as if they were people without an interest in or a commitment to the responsibility vested in them. I am confident that there is as much management expertise in CIE as there is in any other semi-State operation or in any major public company. It is not only unfair, but counterproductive, to harp continually on supposed mismanagement in CIE. That is not the way to ensure the best performance from management and neither has it worked well in the interest of providing good services.

The employees of the company are the next group in terms of the pastime of CIE bashing. One might be led to believe on many occasions that these workers are in some way different from employees in other semi-State companies, that these 16,500 people are hellbent on doing down the transport services. That is something I could not accept because these 16,500 people are ordinary individuals doing their daily job of work as best they can in the circumstances that prevail in their places of work.

All too often we tend to blame the workers in CIE for some of the ills that have befallen our transport system in the recent past. Apart altogether from the contribution the employees of this huge company make to the Exchequer in terms of income tax payment, in many cases they are making enormous contributions to the communities in which they live, especially in areas outside the immediate Dublin area, through their involvement in voluntary organisations. I know of many voluntary organisations in which CIE workers are very much involved. Therefore, I am not prepared to accept the accusation often levelled at them of being a group of people whose only aim is to down tools and take to the streets carrying placards at every available opportunity.

Another group who are under the umbrella of CIE and who are the cause of some concern are the unions who represent the workers. Perhaps there are too many of those unions in terms of dealing with the workforce that exists within the company, but we must deal with what-ever number of unions is involved. Having said that, I suggest that those unions, at this time in particular, must know that it is not in their best interests to have a large section of the workforce out on the street. When I raised this matter today by way of supplementary question it was not my intention in any way to add to an already unhappy situation, such as the one being experienced now. The unions, I understand, are ready, willing and available to do what they can to bring about a solution to the current problem. Once again I appeal to the Minister to pay due attention to the remarks at Question Time today by both Deputy Reynolds and myself. Surely, it is worthwhile for the Minister, together with the Minister for Labour, to have joint consultations with the unions concerned in the hope of bringing about a solution to the problem. In this way it might at least be said that every effort was made to resolve the situation.

It is forgotten sometimes that a unique step was taken by the last administration in relation to CIE management in that we introduced worker directors to the board. It was felt at that time that these worker directors would act as go-betweens between the large number of employees they represent and the management and that they would be available to all and sundry in respect of the details of any situation at any time. Unfortunately, this innovation would not appear to have worked out well; but must not the experiment be followed through to a greater degree? Not enough emphasis has been placed on the fact that these worker directors should be availed of more so that they might play an important part in acting as mediators in dealing with these seemingly endless disputes that arise, sometimes arising suddenly so far as the company are concerned. I am hoping that a greater role can be played by the worker directors. The idea was very good and it would be unfortunate if it should go by the board merely because of a lack of confidence and a lack of support on the part of the various groups within the company.

A factor which brings about an unhappy situation so far as the workers are concerned is the lack of confidence in their future. This can be exemplified in some areas where the best possible productivity may not be forthcoming. The problem is that the workers never know from one year to another whether they are to be the subject of some in-depth negotiations, surveys or commissions resulting in their being the next to get the chop. That sort of situation leaves workers suspicious and lacking in confidence for their future. It is something that can lead to aggravated situations and to frustrations that bring about altercations and street situations of the kind we have had in the past few years. If one takes that lack of confidence on the part of the workers together with the lack of equipment that they suffer, one cannot blame these people for being suspicious that they are the next to be forced on to the unemployment queue.

Regarding the current dispute it must be borne in mind that considerable sums of money are being lost every day by the centre-city traders and that this must have a very debilitating effect on business at this time, a time which should be one of the busiest for them. These traders are justified in some of the statements they have made. They are justified in asking for ministerial action to help to resolve their problems. There are alternatives the Minister could recommend to the Cabinet to deal with this matter but some of them are quite drastic. I do not think the long-term benefit of a transport network would be enhanced by taking some of these drastic measures. Before the Minister recommends any measures to the Cabinet every effort should be made to deal with the matter at first hand. I repeat there is an onus of responsibility on the Minister to set himself up in the position of mediator or negotiator and certainly as someone who will consult with all involved with a view to securing a happier situation than exists at the moment.

This Bill deals with three areas of activity. It extends the limit of borrowing for CIE, it extends the temporary borrowing powers of the organisation and it gives a Government guarantee on certain matters. It is only when one considers the enormous increase asked for here that one realises the cost of public transport and what it will cost in the future. The House is being asked to accept an increase of £125 million on the existing limit. This is an enormous sum and there should be public accountability for it.

One of the major areas of expenditure is the electrification of the Howth-Bray suburban rail service. I am pleased to see that this is progressing and that it will be coming on stream in the not too distant future. This service will improve to an enormous extent transport services to certain areas. When it is joined with the commuter services that are being contemplated and the re-opening of some railway stations that have been closed for a number of years, we will have taken the first step to deal with some of the major traffic difficulties experienced in this city in recent years.

I hope that the carriages being purchased for the new Howth-Bray railway service will be a little better than the minimum standards sometimes one gets in other transportation systems in Europe — I refer to plastic seats and the minimum of facilities. I hope we will not adopt a penny pinching attitude with regard to the carriages. We should purchase good quality materials so that we will have long-lasting vehicles available.

There has been an enormous increase in the number of passengers in the past ten years. The 34,500 passengers recorded for 1980 will be a small figure only compared with those who will use the new service when it is available. I am glad to note that the new service will have attractions other than a speedy five-minute service from one area to another. It has a great advantage with regard to control of pollution and this aspect should be considered in respect of any new extensions in the next few years. There is a major pollution problem with regard to car exhausts in this city and in other areas where there is heavy traffic congestion. The electrification system will go a long way towards reducing the pollution level. In addition, the service will reduce considerably our dependence on oil. When one considers that every traffic jam in this city results in the loss of approximately 1,500 gallons of petrol one appreciates the enormous wastage that occurs every year. I am happy that our dependence on oil will be reduced considerably by the far-sighted policy of providing this new electrified system on one side of the city.

I should like to think that there are other savings to be had by the introduction of the service. One must mention the frustration experienced by individuals who are unfortunate enough to have to drive through the city at certain times of the day. I do not know if a survey was ever carried out on hypertension levels attributable to traffic jams but it is my opinion that from the medical and social points of view the situation cannot be regarded as desirable. We hope the Minister will take further enlightened initiatives to deal with the matter of traffic congestion in the next few years. In other words, we hope he will continue the good work carried out by Deputy Reynolds and others in the Department of Transport.

Traffic congestion in the city must have an enormous impact on productivity in certain industries located in the centre of the city and other areas. Serious concern should be given to this aspect. It must result in unemployment, in a considerable amount of absenteeism and in frustration between management and staff. Perhaps some of the bad traffic conditions that have existed in the past few years have contributed to the tensions that build up suddenly and which are brought out on to the streets.

One of the major efforts made by the former Minister for Transport to deal with this matter was the introduction of bus priority routes. It is only right that I put on record the fact that a debt of gratitude is owed to the administration and the task force that undertook measures with regard to the bus priority routes. Their efforts got off to the good start and they have been successful. These efforts must be continued until the maximum number of measures that can be adopted are undertaken. A Deputy spoke of the need for contra-flow and so on. These matters were carefully considered in every area where the introduction of bus priority routes was contemplated. We should develop in the short term the maximum number of bus priority lanes at peak traffic times so as fully to utilise public transport vehicles and at the same time reduce the frustrations of people who rely on them.

Not enough use has been made of flexi-time as a means of dealing with congestion. Industries, shopping centres and certain types of schools and institutions could have been better mobilised in having flexi-time and so remove the enormous workload on our roads and services at certain times in the morning and evening. The Minister should give attention to this whole area.

I refer to the specially commissioned and designed rolling stock for commuter needs. Normally I do not like that kind of phraseology because when one specially designs something for commuter needs one brings oneself to the baseline requirement. If we spend enormous amounts of money on these and people have to sit for longer in these newly designed vehicles it might be in the best interests of the powers that be to have a reasonable level of comfort in the design. Otherwise there will be moaning and groaning about sitting on hard seats which might lead to further delays and intrusions in the service. This might be a small matter but, if attended to, letters may not have to be written to the Minister complaining about accommodation on these specially commissioned commuter vehicles.

There will be a good service on the electric system between Howth and Bray. I pay tribute to those who suggested that the trains will run at five minute intervals and that this will be extended to 15 minutes at off-peak periods. It is an appropriate time now to say that I sincerely hope that the best technology and skills have been employed and the best training has been given to the technicians involved in the installation and running of this system. When trains run at high speeds and at the frequencies suggested in the Minister's speech the chances of something going wrong are increased. When one regards other countries with high speed inter-city commuter trains and other rapid systems one can understand the need for vigilance in all aspects of safety attached to the system. While I am not raising any alarms in this regard at the same time I expect that no money has been spared in the electrification of the system.

Parking space should be fully utilised in the city. Sometimes we develop systems and forget the downstream areas and often these represent the best value for money as time goes on. Parking areas should be provided at certain locations so that the maximum number of people possible can be enticed on to these new systems. I do not mean open areas but ones properly fenced and regulated. The only way to ensure that the best use will be made of the new services is if we can guarantee commuters that their vehicles will be safe and secure until they return. I hope the CIE management have given attention to providing the best parking possible close to their outer destination points. They may not have been as active in this area as they should have been in the city centre. They should not have left it entirely to the corporation and other statutory authorities to deal with parking. If they had in mind attracting commuters to their services they should have been first in providing parking facilities both at the outer rim of the city and in the centre. They have unutilised space attached to some of their installations and properties and this should be used for high-rise or underground parking units. If they adopt such a policy they would provide people with an opportunity to come into town, park their cars and utilise the public services. I hope this matter will get some hearing in the future development of CIE.

A decision will be taken on rapid rail by the new administration in the not too distant future. Until such time as the benefits of the electrified Howth-Bray line and the new commuter services together with the feeder bus services, better parking facilities and the stricter enforcement of regulations in the cities are seen at first hand it would be inappropriate to take a decision on rapid rail. We should analyse the effects of the new system before taking the major decision of going rapid rail. While on paper there are enormous benefits to be got from taking these decisions, in the short-term we should be reluctant to go into the heavy expenditure that would be involved. The amount required, £66.4 million, as total capital cost for the rapid rail system is not unduly expensive by today's standards. When it was initially suggested £46 million was given as the overall cost.

When the effects have been seen in increased numbers, increased revenue to CIE, improvements as far as pollution levels are concerned and lack of frustration it might be time to consider similar operations for other areas in the city. Forward planning should be done now. It is unfortunate about planning that here we have plans and no planners and if we have planners we have no plans. We are never geared in advance to deal with eventualities that will take place. Planners must have seen 20 years ago what would happen in Dublin city and suburbs with the escalation of building, improvement in economic life and better social standards — that there would be a problem as far as public transport was concerned. Instead of forward planning the opportunity was taken to close down some existing facilities.

There should be no further talk about closures. This is an expanding economy. We will have better services. We should be talking not only about improving the existing services but planning better and newer services. Such transport systems can be seen working. I recommend to the Minister that he should take a trip and see some of the newer systems in operation which work so efficiently and so well in other cities and in other countries. It would be well worth his while to take such a trip.

We should not be so niggardly when we talk about the money which has to be provided for CIE. We seem to be continually bashing CIE and saying we should give them nothing. You cannot produce a worthwhile transport network without planning long-term expenditure. If the general public knew what was involved, and knew they would get a good, fast, efficient service in return, they would be generous. That service can be provided by instilling a new sense of confidence in the management, the unions and the workforce in CIE. We have to pay for the service in retrospect anyway. I would be much happier if the money was earmarked, and if we had a programme planned in advance over a ten-year period. That planning would have the type of support we are giving the Minister tonight for this necessary extension on the limits of expenditure and capital borrowing and he would also get the support of this House if he introduced a programme to continue and improve upon the plans which were well laid by his predecessor in office.

I am particularly pleased at the Minister's reference to maximising the purchase of Irish goods in the development of these services. When people purchase small items on our trains they are not pleased to find that they were produced elsewhere. When the general public realise that they provide substantial sums of money each year to support their transport services and find that some of the items in use on those services are foreign made, they find that disquieting. I will not specify the items. Everybody knows what I am talking about. It should be brought to the notice of CIE that more is expected of them than from any other service if only because of the fact that the general public paid £70 million last year and will have to pay a heftier sum this year. Every single opportunity should be taken to maximise the use of Irish products on these services.

I should like to join with my colleague in suggesting that the Minister might take the initiative in involving the small industries division of the IDA. He should encourage his Cabinet colleague to have another look at the downstream institutions and little projects which could be started up. Any company who expend in excess of £200 million per year could be a generator of job opportunities. They should take the initiative and bring to the notice of entrepreneurs and people involved in small industries the enormous opportunities which are available in CIE, Aer Lingus and the other huge companies and corporations which are supported by the taxpayers. It is fundamental that every single component used by these companies should be the product of Irish industry and Irish expertise. If some items are not available here, the people involved should be asked to take a closer look at their specifications.

I understand that, apart from the rolling stock, 50 per cent of the requirements are coming from Irish sources. That is not a percentage of which we can be proud. The Minister would improve his position if he brought it home forcibly to all the major operations under his control that he will be looking for a progress report as to their involvement in making the best use of Irish-made products and expertise.

We waited a long time for the announcement that the new carriages would be built by CIE for CIE to improve their rail network service. I am glad to see that increased sums of money are being asked for by way of increased borrowing capacity for the provision of the 124 main line carriage units coming out of Inchicore. They are necessary and there is a general public demand to have these carriages brought into operation at the earliest possible time. The Minister should not allow any decision to be taken by his colleagues in Government which would in any way endanger or slow down the provision of this new rolling stock.

Some of us are fortunate enough to live west of the Shannon. We have enormous advantages down there which are not available here. We have not got the fierce congestion there is in this city and which frustrates country Deputies. I invite all Deputies to transfer to west of the Shannon. I hope the policy of decentralisation started by Fianna Fáil will be where it should be at this time. Those of us who are fortunate enough to live in the west would like to see a much improved service with mainline rolling stock. We have a one-day super train service to one destination at the weekend in the west through the good offices of the former Minister, but it is not too much to ask CIE and the Minister for a minimum standard coach on all services throughout the whole country. No area should be prefered above another by way of getting better class coaches, or air-conditioned coaches, or AC sets, or whatever you like to call them.

That is not fair. It must be remembered that the people in the west pay their just taxes too. They provide a considerable amount of the revenue that goes to pay the deficit in CIE and to provide the extra capital necessary for all these services. They should not be discriminated against in any way by means of rolling stock. I would like a commitment from the Minister that when these new carriages come from Inchicore a fair share of them will be made available initially on the western runs, Sligo, Westport, Galway and Limerick. That is not too much to expect for the people of the west. I know well that the present Taoiseach did not look too favourably on the Deputies who come from the west in that he could not find it possible to provide them with a voice in the corridors of power which is usually associated with a Mercedes State car. The west has been stripped of its traditional input at Cabinet and middle Cabinet level. Be that as it may, I hope sincerely, despite the fact that the new Taoiseach has seen fit to denude the west of its State car participation in Government, that that will not be used by the administration as a follow-up to deal similarly with the services in the west. Due notice will have to be given now to the Minister and the Government on that score, that if the same kind of treatment is applied as has been applied to the back-benchers of Fine Gael as far as their participation in Government is concerned, it will be resisted with all the force that we can command. I say that on behalf of both sides of this House. Let nobody think that the west is going to be treated in any niggardly way as far as development is concerned or that we are going to be passed over because we have no voice in the corridors of power. In regard to the provision of services and improved services we will be making the best use here of our vocal cords to see to it that our problems are highlighted and that the best available is provided for us.

I would like to think that the carriages that are proposed to become available in 1983 might be moved up. It would be a feather in the Minister's cap if he could make an announcement at an early date that this new rolling stock was being given top priority by him and that he can improve on that date. I recommend that strongly to him because I know it can be achieved. The production line can be got into operation more speedily than was suggested by him here today. Not only would he have the support of the users, the commuters who would be using these services, but they would regard it as a major victory for the Minister personally. We have been waiting too long for these coaches and now that the decision has been taken and we are providing the money for him today, he can give it considerably more attention than 1983 suggests.

I would like to think also that we might develop a more open attitude to new systems on both road and rail. As far as rail is concerned, there are new types of coaches currently being experimented with and used in other countries. The Minister might very well experiment here in a more enlightened way in dealing with some of the lighter gauge coaches that can run at reasonably high speeds with good comfort and less fuel consumption than normally associated with the big power packs with which we pull our sets. A whole range of new concepts is being experimented with right around the world. The Minister should take the opportunity afforded to him now to have a look at some of those new systems and suggest them to CIE. Perhaps he could lead the field in this area of experimentation. We are only a small country but we have a nice, tidy network now which cannot be chopped any further. We should utilise the rail to its maximum advantage, and to date we have not done so. It is hoped that the new commuter services and new systems will be experimented with to provide a better service. If new lines have to be built and new links and equipment provided, then I suggest that the Minister should feel quite free to come in here and ask and he will have our support in providing them.

As far as road services are concerned we have been stagnant in our attitude towards the type of vehicles we use. New type vehicles and a new type construction are being used but they never appear on the roads of Ireland. This is not, as sometimes suggested, because the roads are not capable of carrying these new types of vehicles. I talk about concertina-type vehicles and all kinds of arrangements for ticket-purchasing which involve greater productivity. Maybe there is less manning in certain areas, but let that not cause CIE employees to believe that they are going suddenly to find themselves unemployed. That is the kind of thing that has killed the confidence in security of tenure of a lot of the employees of CIE. If these services improve and if we provide new services, we will be going on the recruitment campaign again. Nothing would instil greater confidence among workers in CIE management than to see themselves diversifying into a new area of operation with new techniques, skills and equipment. It would entice the best productivity from the work force and we would go into a job creation situation. Is that not what it is all about? We are paying the piper anyway so let us have the best available and if money is needed to provide it then let us provide it. Nobody would turn his back on that so long as an improved service is the return.

I see the new Bombardier buses on our streets and roads and I am happy to say that there has not been a continuation of the teething problems that were a source of some minor embarrassment to my colleague, Deputy Reynolds, on one or two occasions. Those troubles are over now. There should not be reluctance to deal with this new technology and I am quite convinced that the work force of CIE are quite prepared to utilise their skills, techniques and ability in dealing with this new technology if somebody would discuss it with them properly. The cause of the unfortunate dispute and the disruption of services here is a minor issue that has escalated due to the intransigence of whoever is responsible for not dealing with it. Surely it was not too much to expect that this teething trouble that is costing us so dearly today would have been foreseen. This new experiment with the Bombardier buses is innovative and to be welcomed. People generally—I mean the vast majority—have given an open welcome to these new buses, and so do I here this evening. I would be happy to know that they will form the basis for a new type bus fleet with better service and better comfort than we have been accustomed to.

As it is necessary to replace buses on a planned basis I would like to think that the new system that was started by Deputy Reynolds in providing the necessary finance and infrastructure to build these buses will be kept up on a planned basis so that we will have a totally new fleet in the shortest possible time with the necessary spares and expertise which will provide the comfort and service levels which the people who are paying this enormous deficit demand. We should not always be negative in our attitudes to providing alternative means in the short-term and at certain peak periods.

I do not think CIE should be reluctant to take on other buses on a hiring or leasing basis. When buses are needed for a job of work and companies make themselves available to provide a service, why do we always say it is going to hurt somebody? It never hurts anybody except the poor people who have to pay and who are given a bad service. If CIE are reluctant or do not have the expertise, equipment or plant to provide the service which is demanded by a section of the community in a particular part of the country, they should be magnanimous enough to say that their work is on behalf of the electorate, who are paying the money—by and large by way of deficit—to provide the best service they can and if that requires hiring or leasing fleets in the short-term let them do it. They should plan to provide the services themselves on the next occasion. That is the best way to maximise the goodwill on behalf of the people who require the service throughout the country. We should not be niggardly in dealing with those who can provide the extras needed on the occasions when CIE cannot provide them.

I note also that permission is being granted to provide CIE with the necessary means of alternative financing. I presume this will also include the leasing of equipment. I am not a great promoter of this type of financial arrangement. I see my colleague, Deputy Reynolds, smiling. Even among the best of friends there are differences of opinion on financial matters. I am not a supporter of this type of financing for which the general public pay by way of taxes. If there are good alternatives available and if they can reduce the burden on the taxpayer, without interfering with the overall ownership and control of the asset, it is worthy of some study. We should tread carefully and move slowly in the area of financing because it can have a debilitating effect on the whole structure of administration and Government.

The McKinsey Report has not, in my opinion, got anything like the attention it deserved. I hope the reason for that is not that people do not regard it as a worthy document. I have some reservations about its usefulness. It was very short on solutions to CIE's problems but was very long on the history of their problems. It was also very long on the closure options which it suggested as a means of dealing with the problems. It would have been preferable if it had been stronger on the solutions and the options for solutions that might be made available to the Government of the day and to the Minister for Transport who would be making recommendations in that regard to the Cabinet.

Public debate is not sufficiently elevated to deal effectively with this matter of general public interest. I cannot see why we have had such sporadic recommendations from the sectional interests involved in public transport development. I would have thought that everybody was eagerly awaiting the production of the McKinsey Report. In the debate we had one side tore it asunder and the other side said we should scrap the whole system. There was no real debate in support of the development of a good public transport system for the country. I hope the Minister will take the initiative in this regard by inviting, and naming if necessary, the various organisations which he would like to get involved in this public debate launched by his predecessor. There must be an enormous number of organisations and institutions who have a valuable contribution to make. I thought there would have been seminars and weekend consultations and negotiations by various sectional interests in dealing with the McKinsey Report so that the Minister would have available to him a good cross section of attitudes in so far as the provision of a good transport system is concerned. That has not happened. Perhaps some of the fault is in the McKinsey Report itself. Before the Minister makes recommendations to his colleagues in Government for a final decision concerning the new system of public transport he should again invite all concerned to apply themselves, perhaps in the autumn, to dealing in a more specific way with what they would like to recommend as the best means of dealing with this problem.

Members who have an interest in public transport—all Members have some interest in dealing with transport matters — will have an opportunity of dealing at length with the McKinsey Report when it comes before the House for final consideration and recommendations. The Minister is at a crossroads in dealing with public transport for the eighties. I am sorry my friend and colleague, Deputy Reynolds, is not in office to proceed on the lines he started because he had a very clear, incisive view on the promotion of public transport and the way it should progress in the eighties. The Minister would be well advised to pay attention to some of the debates to which he contributed in so far as public transport is concerned. In his recommendations and in the promotion of certain activities under the aegis of public transport companies he had in mind a worthwhile and workmanlike attitude towards the provisions of a first-class public transport system. I hope what he started will be given due recognition and that the promotion of a good transport service will be continued by the present administration. His promotion of the Dublin Transport Authority was a major step forward in dealing with what has become a crisis situation daily in our city. The programme he set out and the time scale he allowed himself and the Department for the introduction of the necessary legislation to give effect to this recommendation should be reiterated by the Minister. I regret the Minister did not make reference to that in his speech. I hope the omission was not deliberate because if that was the Minister's intention it would amount to a backward step. I hope the Minister will proceed with all haste with the promotion of that legislation to give the necessary technical and legislative teeth to the Dublin Transportation Authority because it provides the best opportunity to deal effectively with what has become a continuing daily problem.

The task force has been doing admirable work although it is somewhat restricted because it does not have responsibility to deal with all matters concerned with public transport. Now might be a good time, at the start of a new administration, to have a fresh look at the need to isolate certain further responsibilities to the Department of Transport, subsequently to the task force and subsequently to the Dublin Transportation Authority, to have the full effect of implementing the recommendations so absolutely necessary on all fronts concerned with public transport in this city and country.

I take the opportunity of making a further remark regarding some of the suggestions concerning carriages which I neglected to mention when dealing with rolling stock. This concerns what I understand to be the request to have the vast majority of the 124 coaches of the air conditioned type. This would place an enormous financial burden on the overall cost of provision of rolling stock. Some of us are not as convinced as we would like to be that there is an absolute need for fully air conditioned sets running on our railway network. We do not normally have here the extremes of temperature which would apply to latitudes in other areas of the world. Considerably more rolling stock could be made available from the existing resources being provided through this legislation if there was a rethink about the need to install this very expensive equipment in the proposed new rolling stock. That would in no way hold up the provision of the carriages themselves. The flats and super-structures have to be built, anyway. This suggested added comfort might be looked at again as not being necessary for all the rolling stock. This would provide the new Minister with money more needed to provide extra carriages from the same financial allocation. The Minister might consider this at his convenience.

We would also like to think that the assets attached to CIE would be fully utilised. It comes to mind on occasion that there are reasonably large tracts of land—certainly there are some locations — which could be better utilised. A survery should be done of all the properties available to CIE at present and whatever is not needed for their immediate requirements or their planned programmes should either be disposed of or utilised, preferably by CIE, in the provision of other services which might very well be a means of considerable economic resource to CIE by way of extra revenue. I am not one of those people who think that CIE should confine themselves totally and exclusively to providing bus and rail services and nothing else. If they have an opportunity to maximise their assets or locations by providing a service for other people, or in conjunction with other authorities, they should do so. By doing that, they are making the best possible use of the money made available to them by the taxpayer for the purpose of providing the best possible services. That is what we expect from them. If they do that, they will have welcome support from me and, I am quite sure, from the taxpayer who invariably has to pay the piper, anyway. Mar a deir an sean fhocal tús maith leath na hoibre, agus is é mo thuairim go bhfuil tús sár-mhaith déanta ag an iar-Aire Iompair atá ina shuí cóngarach dom anocht. Cuid des na deacrachtaí a bhí sa Roinn Iompair, tá réiteach faighte orthu ag an iar-Aire. Tá fadhbanna ann go fóill, ar ndóigh, agus níl sé thar cumas an Rialtais na fadhbanna sin a réiteach, agus beimid ag fanacht ar na coiscéimeanna a luaigh an tAire Iompair anocht chun deileáil leis na fadhbanna sin. Táimid ag iarraidh freisin air mion-scrúdú a dhéanamh ar na tuairimí atá nochtaithe agamsa agus ag an Teachta Reynolds anseo anocht.

In conclusion, we expect that the good job of work started by Deputy Reynolds will be brought to a happy conclusion and that, as we say down where I come from, the present Minister will be able to harrow as much of the ground as has been ploughed by Deputy Reynolds. It will then go well for the future of public transport.

May I begin my first speech in this 22nd Dáil by congratulating the Ceann Comhairle on his election to the Chair and wishing him a pleasant time in it. I hope that he will not have too many troubles. I also congratulate the Minister, Deputy Cooney, on once again resuming as a member of the Government. I hope he will recall that any time I ever spoke here when he was Minister for Justice, I always spoke in a constructive manner. I intend to continue behaving in that manner. I wish him well in what is a very tough Department which calls for a large amount of capital to be spent and which is very much a decision-making Department. For that reason, I pay tribute to the former holder of that office, Deputy Reynolds, for his massive input into that Department during the very short while that he held office as Minister for Transport.

Before getting to the actual content of the Bill, it would be remiss of me not to mention the most unfortunate strike which has been referred to by other speakers and which has virtually brought Dublin to a standstill. There is not one part of Dublin where people have not been wholly inconvenienced by this strike and I must, in truth, warn the Minister that there is particular anxiety among CIE employees that this strike may go on as long as another CIE strike when a Coalition Government was in power, which lasted for ten weeks. I hope that the Minister will meet the necessary people to try to get the buses moving again.

Industrial relations have changed very considerably from a few years ago. Government intervention in certain instances has been seen by the public to be effective and in many types of disputes very necessary. I would alert the Minister to the feedback I am getting from people which is that the Government, so far, seem unaware that there is a CIE strike taking place in Dublin city. I know that that is not so, that they are indeed so aware, but the fact is that they are not coming across to the people as being aware or in any way interested in seeing this strike settled as quickly as possible. I urge the Minister to use his utmost efforts, with his colleague, the Minister for Labour, to try to get this strike settled.

I welcome this Bill and all the measures contained in it. Not long ago I visited the Inchicore works which are like a little world in themselves. I suggest that the Minister lose no time in visiting Inchicore. I am sure he would be very surprised at the size, scope and the thousands of people who depend on the Inchicore works for their livelihood. There are families who go back generations still working there.

I visited those works for the first time many years ago, but recently I paid two visits, the first on my own and the second with the former Minister, Deputy Reynolds, when we were taken on a tour of the works. The reason for my first visit was that statements had been made by members of the present Government parties about Fianna Fáil's intentions towards the Inchicore works and the possibility of closure. I made it my business to reassure the workers that there was no truth in that. They accepted my assurance and I circulated many copies of the then Minister's speech, which he had made on the Adjournment Debate on a question raised by Deputy Mitchell, now Minister for Justice. The awful thing was that these people felt insecure because of the rumours being fed to them by the then Deputy Mitchell that the future of the Inchicore works was not secure. They realise now, and realised then, by the actions of Fianna Fáil, that their future is secure.

I was very glad to see in the Minister's speech today confirmation that many buses will be built in those works over the next few years. The workers can be satisfied that as long as Fianna Fáil have any say in the matter the Inchicore Works will never close down. At present work is starting on the provision of new carriages for the mainline passenger service. This is the type of evidence the workers want to see.

With the electrification of the Howth-Bray line in progress, it is very important that the Government accept as positive policy the electrification of other lines. I am particularly anxious to see this happen in the Dublin suburbs. I am thinking specifically of the Hazelhatch-Clondalkin and Blanchardstown lines into the city. The cost would be small in relation to the enormous saving that could be made in the use of imported fuel.

Our roads are totally inadequate for the amount of traffic they have to carry. One has only to go through Dublin today while there is a bus strike to see that this is true. Because of the strike many more people are using their cars. This helps one to realise that many people use public transport. It is only when public transport is not available that one can make such a comparison. I hope it will be the policy of this Government to encourage more people to use public transport and leave their cars at home.

I would like to mention the proposed new bus roads — I am not talking about the present busways which are operating in the city — from Tallaght to Dublin. I am totally against that proposal because I do not believe it is necessary. To build special bus roads would be wasteful and would not be beneficial. I believe the future for suburban travel is by way of rapid rail. This is the area the Government should look at.

I wish the Minister well in his new office and hope he will be successful.

I congratulate the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle on their appointments and know we will get fair play from both. I also take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister.

There is a lot of talk in the west that we do not have a member of the Government to look after our business but this Minister and the previous Minister came from the same constituency, which is not too far away. The previous Minister made decisions and implemented them. That was to his credit. The same can be said of his Minister of State, Deputy Flynn, who has already made many of the points I wanted to make about transport in the west.

I welcome this Bill. CIE is a company we cannot expect to pay its way. There are certain public services which can never be expected to pay their way, because they provide a social service and CIE is one such company. At present we have a high standard of living and an affluent society. There are more cars on our roads and fewer people are availing of the services provided by CIE. In my opinion CIE should take another look at the transport system and reconsider their decision to close certain lines.

I am very concerned about the west. Our roads were not built to take the heavy traffic using them at present. With the high price of petrol and diesel oil CIE should be able to provide a service which would make it more economic for businesses to send the goods by rail rather than by road.

CIE have closed many lines. They have a habit of putting very poor carriages, some without even heating, on all but the main lines with the result that very few people will travel on them. The next step is the closing of these lines. I was against the closing of the canal from Dublin to Galway. I have always maintained we should never close anything because we never know when we will need it. CIE closed a number of lines in the west which could be very beneficially used in future if costs continue to increase. I would ask the Minister to take a very serious look at this.

I am glad of the amount of money being provided in this Bill. I hope the Minister will carry on the work which was done by the previous Minister and his Minister of State.

Debate adjourned.
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