Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Apr 1987

Vol. 371 No. 11

Allocation of Time: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. V. Brady)

I move:

That notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders—

(1) the Dáil shall—

(a) adjourn not later than 8.30 p.m. today

(b) meet on Thursday next at 10.30 a.m. and adjourn not later than 6 p.m. and

(c) meet on Friday next at 10.30 a.m. and adjourn not later than 4 p.m.;

(2) the Second Stage of the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1987 and of the Referendum (Amendment) Bill, 1987, shall be taken to-day;

(3) the said Second Stages shall be taken together for the purpose of debate and the Minister for Foreign Affairs shall be called on not later than 5.30 p.m. on Thursday next to conclude the debate and the proceedings on the said Second Stages, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m. on Thursday next by one question which shall be put from the Chair; and

(4) the proceedings on the Committee and remaining stages of the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1987, and of the Referendum (Amendment) Bill, 1987, if not previously concluded shall be brought to a conclusion at 4 p.m. on Friday next by one question, which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Member in charge of the Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the motion agreed?

Mr. D. O'Malley

I do not wish to be in any way obstructive of what is proposed in relation to trying to get this Bill debated expeditiously and passed, I hope, at an early date. But it does seem to me that the time proposed here is very short for a Bill that is of fundamental importance. In particular I am concerned that the time for Committee Stage is only, I think, five and a half hours. What I am fearful of is that there will be a number of amendments put down and that, in a time period as short as that, some of those amendments will never be reached, particularly as the substantive amendments will have to be to the Schedule of the Bill and will be taken at the very end. Perhaps some other amendments, not as substantial or as basic — which might appear earlier in the Bill — would be the ones to which most of the time on Committee Stage would be devoted.

Might I make the suggestion to the Taoiseach that, instead of adjourning at 6 p.m. tomorrow at the end of the Second Stage, the Committee Stage would begin at 6.30 p.m. and go on until, say, 11 p.m. That would give an additional four and a half hours which again, because of the importance of what is involved, may not be adequate but would be much better than what is proposed here. The alternative would be to sit late on Friday, which would be less satisfactory, or to sit on Saturday. Some of the difficulty might be overcome if the House were to resume at 6.30 p.m. tomorrow and sit until 11 p.m. to start the Committee Stage of the Bill.

The Taoiseach

I am anxious to facilitate the House on this very important occasion. First of all, let me say that I would like the House to complete its business on Friday because we propose to call the Seanad on Saturday and have the legislation dealt with in the Seanad as expeditiously as possible. The arrangements which are outlined here have been agreed between the Whips of the Government and the principal Opposition Party but we are not necessarily wedded to them. If there is a widespread wish for additional time or for changes in these times, I suggest that can be done by agreement between the Whips and that perhaps the Whips should meet later on to discuss that.

Mr. Spring

I rise to speak in anticipation. I assume, Sir, you are about to put the question that the Order of Business be agreed?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is so.

Mr. Spring

I can say that we are not agreeing to the Order of Business in this manner. I am all the more alarmed by the statement of the Taoiseach in which he said that the Order of Business has been agreed between the Chief Whip of the Government and the Chief Whip of the principal Opposition Party. To the best of my knowledge that is not the way business has been conducted in this House in the past——

The Taoiseach

Whips plural.

Mr. Spring

Well, it has not been agreed by the Whip of our party, and I can tell you now, Sir, that it is not being agreed. We are proposing to discuss in a very short space of time a major constitutional amendment with far-reaching implications without the Government even having given the House the benefit at this stage of how they look at and interpret the Supreme Court judgment, a judgment which states, in various parts, that Title III of the Single European Act impinges, inter alia, on this Government's defence policies. The Government have not given us any indication of how they view that, what are its implications. We are objecting to this procedure of tacking on to our Constitution a retrospective sanction for an Act that has gone through this House and been rejected by the Supreme Court. Certainly not sufficient time is being provided for debate and no guidance has been given by the Government on how they see the implications of that Supreme Court judgment. Therefore, we are rejecting the Order of Business today.

An Ceann Comhairle

It has been suggested that the Whips might consult regarding the allocation of time. May I take it from what Deputy Spring has said that he is opposing this agreement outright?

Mr. Spring

Sir, if you want me to accept that the Whips should meet then I suggest that the question should not be put until the Whips have met, let the debate begin and postpone the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must put the question therefore——

Mr. D. O'Malley

May I ask, Sir, that when the Whips meet on this matter, and on matters generally, that meeting would be what these meetings always were in the past, which was a meeting of the Whips of all the parties. I understand that what now takes place is a meeting between the Government Whip and the Whip of the main Opposition Party and that subsequent to that the Government Whip meets the other Whips and more or less tells them what has been agreed on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. As you can imagine, Sir, that is quite unsatisfactory. That is a matter we should have clarified as well and this would be a good opportunity to do so. If the Taoiseach is in a position to indicate that the Government Whip will be instructed to look favourably on the suggestion I have made I would be prepared to accept that and the possibility that we shall have four and a half additional hours tomorrow evening on the Committee Stage.

Mr. Dukes

I have agreed to the proposal by the Government for the ordering of business on this matter. I would take the Taoiseach's suggestion — and indeed I would think it only sensible — that we see how the debate goes during the course of today. If it appears that further time is necessary for any part of the Bill, of course, we should all be ready to consider that. I would suggest, a Cheann Comhairle, with the greatest deference to the House, that that is what we should now do rather than have the opening shots of a debate on the substance of the matter before us raised artificially on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the motion agreed?

Mr. Spring

It is not agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must put the question then. We cannot debate the matter now. I have allowed Deputy Spring to make known his point of view.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 95; Níl, 28.

Tá

• Abbott, Henry.
• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Allen, Bernard.
• Barnes, Monica.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Carey, Donal.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Conaghan, Hugh.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Coughlan, Mary T.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Creed, Donal.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dennehy, John.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Doherty, Seán
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Ellis, John.
• Enright, Thomas.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrelly, John V.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Flood, Chris.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hegarty, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Hilliard, Colm Michael.
• Hussey, Gemma.
• Hyland, Liam.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Kelly, John.
• Begley, Michael
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Matthew.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Lynch, Michael.
• McCarthy, Seán.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Mooney, Mary.
• Morley, P.J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Noonan, Michael.
• (Limerick East).
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Dea, William Gerard.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Batt.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• Power, Paddy.
• Roche, Dick.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Swift, Brian.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wright, G.V.

Níl

• Bell, Michael.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Colley, Anne.
• Cullen, Martin.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Gibbons, Martin Patrick.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Harney, Mary.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Keating, Michael.
• Kennedy, Geraldine.
• McCartan, Pat.
• McCoy, John S.
• McDowell, Michael Alexander.
• Mac Giolla, Tomás.
• O'Malley, Desmond J.
• O'Malley, Pat.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Spring, Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Browne; Níl, Deputies Taylor and Howlin.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Items Nos. 1 and 2 are being taken together for the purpose of debate.