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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 May 1987

Vol. 372 No. 13

Private Members' Business. - Local Government (Planning and Development) (Trees and Woodlands) Bill, 1987: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time". This is a short Bill. I would like to remind the House that two weeks ago I raised on the Order of Business the national concern for the preservation of the remaining oak woods at Coolattin in County Wicklow. On that occasion I reminded the Taoiseach that he had shown his concern by visiting the area and seeing for himself the destruction that had taken place there and the probable continuation of that destruction if action was not taken urgently.

In reply to my request for Government time to debate the Labour Bill, the Taoiseach gave assurances to the House that actions he was considering would meet the needs of the occasion. I pointed out to the Taoiseach that there was a need for urgent action by the Government to preserve one of the last areas of oak woodlands in the country. The appropriate action which I suggested on that occasion was legislation which is embodied in the short Bill which I have just proposed and which is in the name of the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Dick Spring. The Taoiseach assured the House that the Government, the appropriate Department and Wicklow County Council were actively investigating the problem. He was confident that the initiatives which he had taken would be adequate to ensure that the woodlands would be preserved. What has been done by him up to now is far from adequate. It is now more urgent than ever that this House act in relation to these woodlands. I proposed this Bill in an effort to put in place the only adequate response to the situation.

It might be useful to look back briefly at how this problem has developed. The history of the Fitzwilliam estate is a familiar one. It is a pattern that has occurred throughout Ireland down through the centuries. This Anglo-Norman family received large tracts of land after the Norman invasion. Most of County Wicklow was granted to them and parts of the city of Dublin bear their name today. Everybody is familiar with the name Fitzwilliam.

For centuries they farmed the land in County Wicklow. They collected ground rents. They were the ground landlords of many of the towns and villages in Wicklow. That procedure continued right up to the fifties. They carried on extensive cultivation of forestry. The oak forests which they owned were the raw material which went into many constructions in Great Britain. Most notable of these constructions are the House of Commons and St. Paul's Cathedral. The oak trees were used also in the building and construction of many of the merchant and fighting ships during the dominance of Britain of the seas around the world.

In latter decades the cultivation and commercial operation of the estate by comparison with operations of other estates of that class was very well managed. The husbandry of the estate ensured that planting and replanting was done on both a highly aesthetic and commercially sound basis so that by the thirties and forties the Fitzwilliam estate was a noted area of national beauty and high amenity.

I find it very difficult to sit and listen to this.

I am sorry the Taoiseach seems to think——

You sat for four years and did nothing about it.

If he sat and listened he would hear what I did about it. I intend to tell the House what I have done.

When one thinks of the licences to absolutely invade Coolattin it is extraordinary to hear this coming over the loud speaker.

The Deputy in possession without interruption, please.

My interest in Coolattin did not start with the last general election; it started long before that and I intend to let the Deputy know that and to answer some of the stuff he is responsible for putting in some of the national dailies. In any event I am sure the Ceann Comhairle will allow me to continue with my remarks. I am giving the background to those both in the House and outside who are interested in wishing to know how this situation arose. It takes in the terms of not just one Government but several Governments since the sixties.

As a result of family bereavements and death duties the estate was brought to a crisis point in the sixties and seventies. It was known that surviving members of the family were no longer anxious to continue to live on and operate the estate which by that time had been considerably reduced in size down to 3,000 acres which mainly consisted of farmland and woodlands. There was considerable local interest in the sale of the estate during the seventies. It was considered that local as well as national interests would be best served if the estate was acquired by the Land Commission and the property divided among those who would meet the regulations and conditions for that division. It was also considered that the preservation of the woodlands for amenity purposes would be of great benefit to the State.

When County Wicklow was a threeseat constituency it almost always produced one Fine Gael one Fianna Fáil and one Labour representative. At that time all representatives made the usual representations to various Ministers. We led deputations and made written representations at that time. Unfortunately that opportunity was lost and the property was sold on 15 August 1977 to Brendan Cadogan and Mr. Patrick Tatten. That section of the estate which interests us here today, namely the woodlands, was sold for £300,000 to those same gentlemen. Subsequently the Land Commission bought 370 acres of the estate for £800,000 approximately. The area of woodland which Messrs. Tatten and Cadogan bought was bought for £300,000 at the time and it is there that the real mistake was made. Money was not particularly tight then, though I suppose it is tight at any stage for a Government. It was sad that on that occasion when the opportunity arose for the Land Commission, it was not availed of. The felling of mature oaks commenced shortly after that sale and there was not a great deal of shock and concern at the time. As a TD for Wicklow and as a member of Wicklow County Council I put down a motion on 16 January 1978 asking that a tree preservation order be placed on all woods in that area. That was considered by the council. They asked for an investigation by An Foras Forbartha. That examination took some time, as it generally does on those occasions and later on in that year on 31 October 1978 I signed 30 tree preservation orders for the whole area of the woods comprising the Coolattin estate in the possession of Messrs. Cadogan and Tatten. I can look back to 1978 as an individual who made the best attempt with the legislation available to preserve the woodlands that comprised the estate of Coolattin. I am sorry that the legislation which was available to us then is the same today and under it nothing can be done to prevent the continuing destruction of the woodlands.

I will remind the House of what was involved. The main woodlands are called Brow Wood, consisting of 6.7 hectares, Mill Wood consisting of four hectares, Quills Wood another six hectares, Drumgall Wood, consisting of 4.75 hectares and Tomnafinnogue Wood consisting of 66.5 hectares. Almost the entire area of these woods, that is Brow Wood, Mill Wood, Quills Wood, Drumgall Wood and Shuttles Wood have disappeared. All that remains now is gaping holes in the landscape. Some planting has taken place but since the area consisted of mature oak timber, the type of planting that has replaced it, mainly of quick growing timber, will not replace the majestic oaks which were there. It would take at least 100 years to rehabilitate the area.

When I was Minister for the Environment I altered the regulations in regard to CPOs or tree preservation orders from a simple consent to one where the applicant would have full planning permission, with all the checks and balances that that entails before a felling could take place. The public would then be able to intervene and raise objections as under any other planning application. This at least slowed up the process of felling and made applications for further planning permissions and felling permissions much slower. I am well aware from a period in office as Minister for the Environment and later as Minister for Forestry that legislation is totally inadequate to both these areas. Certainly it is not adequate to stop the destruction of our heritage in the form of woodlands. Individuals and groups of concerned people such as the Coolattin Woods Action Committee have demanded action from politicians and they deserve a response. The last remaining woodland, the largest one, Tomnafinnogue Wood consisting of 66.5 hectares is now undoubtedly threatened. On 26 March 1987 an application for the selective felling of this wood was delivered to Wicklow County Council. On 19 May the county manager made an order for the selective felling and extraction of trees on the 66.5 hectares of that wood subject to certain conditions. I have a copy of the grant of consent which was then given to the owners now called Bridgefarm Company Ltd. run by Mr. Shanley and Mr. Tatten. It says:

In pursuance of the powers conferred upon them by the above mentioned Acts, and T.P.O. No. 3282/78, and in relation to the application received by the Council on the 26th day of March, 1987 (reference No. in register 2963/87) Wicklow County Council have by order dated 19th May, 1987 granted a consent for:—

Selective felling and extraction of trees on 66.50 hectares at Tomnafinnogue, Ballykelly, Ballyraheen and Coolattin Park Townland, Shillelagh

Subject to the conditions set out in the schedule attached hereto.

The county manager in Wicklow, under the powers granted to him by the Planning Acts has endeavoured to reduce the amount of felling in this area and to have the felling done in such a way that bands of trees about 15 metres deep would remain to blot out and cover up the areas that were cleared and will stop the visual problem that would arise on having a clear felling system. But the problem about that is that a wood comprising of 2,300 trees, mainly oak is covered by this planning application over a period which has been set down in the schedule to the commission. Over the next ten years there will only be 700 mature trees left. That is where the concern of so many people voiced in letters to the county council and by organisations and public representatives from all sides has been brought to bear not only on the county council but on the Government. I was delighted to see the interest of the Taoiseach — I was sorry he could not have remained for the debate — in coming to Wicklow and seeing the position there for himself.

The Taoiseach did not remain because of certain hypocrisy on the part of the man who signed orders for the extraction of those woods. This is a potted variation of history. The Deputy has ignored that.

The Deputy must await his turn.

I signed no order whatsoever for the abstraction. Under the Acts as stated, under the legislation which is there at the moment nothing else could have been done during that time. I am prepared to listen quietly to Deputy Roche telling me how it can be done, though I have a solution I am prepared to put forward. There is a certain tetchiness about the Deputy's approach because he feels that something that has been put forward here today might solve a problem in Wicklow. He should be generous enough to acknowledge that some of us are trying to do something about it, rather than taking advantage of it, as he has done with some of his friends in The Irish Times or elsewhere, to condemn me or anybody else. My party at least have endeavoured to do something about the problem in putting forward a solution here tonight. We will listen to what the Minister has to say about our proposal. I hope he can respond positively.

I welcome the Taoiseach's visit to Wicklow and his interest in it, but up to now the Government's response to this problem has been to propose a special amenity area order for Tomnafinnogue Wood. Deputy Roche, like me, is a member of Wicklow County Council and he receives the same correspondence that I receive from the council. In a letter dated 13 May to the Chairman and each member of Wicklow County Council the acting county secretary, Mr. Ultan McCabe, said, and I quote it because it is important judging from what has been said from the Government benches in this debate without waiting for the opportunity perhaps to say it in their own time:

Re application for consent to fell trees covered by Tree Preservation Order in Tomnafinnogue Wood. Particulars of the applications made for consent to fell the above trees have already been circulated to members of the Council but since then a considerable number of objections have been received (copies of which are enclosed for your information). In addition, in the meantime, a draft Tomnafinnogue Wood Special Amenity Area Order has been drafted in the Department of the Environment and a copy of this document together with a map of the area to which it relates is also attached, herewith, for your information.

Section 42 of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, provides that when it appears to the planning authority that by reason of—

(a) its outstanding natural beauty,

(b) its special recreational value, or

(c) a need for nature conservation, an area should be declared under this section to be an area of special amenity, they may by order do so and the order may state the objective of the planning authority in relation to the preservation or enhancement of the character or special features of the area including objectives for the prevention or limitation of development in the area.

The making of an Order under this section is a reserved function. The procedures for making such an order are as follows; Planning Authorities are required to give public notice in newspapers circulated in the area indicating where a copy of the Order can be seen during office hours and giving a period of not less than a month for objections. The Order has to be confirmed by the Minister for the Environment and if there are objections a local public enquiry must be held. When the Order is confirmed it has to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas for ratification. The matter has been placed on the agenda for consideration having regard to the considerable public interest in the application for consent to fell the wood.

It was agreed at a previous meeting that the entire matter of Tomafinnogue Wood would be brought back before the members of the Council prior to the Manager taking a decision. In this regard it has been recommended to the Manager that consent should be granted subject to conditions requiring replanting with oak for the application in which it is proposed to leave five bands of trees across the contours of the wood in mitigation of the detrimental effect felling would have on the amenity of the area. The other applications which are for clear felling of the same site are recommended for refusal. The decisions in relation to these four applications should not involve the Council in any compensation claim. The latest date for the Manager to take a decision is the 22nd May, 1987, and in the meantime, all the options will continue to be examined particularly those that don't give rise to compensation. It will be noted that the decision will have to be made long before a Special Amenity Area Order could be made. Nonetheless, it is considered appropriate that the members should consider the proposal to make a Special Amenity Area Order having regard to all the circumstances involved.

Now follows the final and most important paragraph:

The specific legal advice available to the Council is that even if the Special Amenity Area Orders were in force before the applications have to be decided the Council would still be liable for compensation.

That is the nub of the problem. Under the 1963 Act as it stands compensation can be claimed and since this is a national problem, not one for Wicklow County Council, it would appear that all we have seen as a result of the involvement by the Government is transference of the responsibility for compensation from central Government to the local authority. The acting county secretary makes that abundantly clear in his letter to the members of the council.

At our recent meeting to deal with estimates we had our service charges increased by 100 per cent to £100 and the commercial rate increased by 9 per cent. Wicklow County Council have large overdrafts and when the Fianna Fáil Party rushed through the estimates — Deputy Roche was there and he knows — some members of that party were not satisfied with the decision taken. Had they not been so hasty they would have had a better result in the estimates on behalf of their constituents. This council cannot pay compensation to Mr. Tatten, to Bridgefarm or to whoever now are owners under the name of that company or to anybody else. Therefore, a transfer from the Department of the Environment, as the matter is that Department's responsibility, to the local authority is not the answer to this problem. This is a national problem that requires a response which would cover the whole country and not just one area where there is now undoubtedly a very serious problem for the environment.

That is why we in the Labour Party put down this Bill for consideration over six weeks ago. That is why we asked the Government for time to consider it. We hope there will be a positive response.

The principal provision of our planning board which is directed to the protection and preservation of trees is section 45 of the 1963 Act. Under that section planning authorities have the power to make tree preservation orders which prevent the cutting down of trees unless the local authority give consent. However, where a local authority refuse to give consent to the cutting down of trees a person who has suffered damage as a result can claim compensation in respect of that damage. Generally speaking where trees comprising woodlands are concerned local authorities can avoid paying compensation only by allowing the felling of trees without conditions or by attaching conditions relating to the replanting.

Section 2 of our Bill will remove this loophole by excluding a right to compensation where a tree preservation order declares that trees comprising woodlands are of special amenity or recreational value, of special interest, of outstanding natural beauty or are part of or comprise any view or prospect of special amenity value or special interest. There will be a right of appeal to the planning board and a right to compensation but only in certain circumstances which are set out in the Bill. Basically there would be no right to compensation if the planning board decide that the trees or woodlands may not be extracted for reasons relating to amenity value, special interest, natural beauty or age of the trees in question, or if it is in the best interests of the management of the environment that they be preserved.

In answer to questions about the woods recently the Taoiseach said he was examining ways of protecting them. I believe that the provisions of this Bill would meet that objective. I look forward to the co-operation of the Government in securing its urgent passage.

We do not insist that we have a monopoly of wisdom in this matter. There may very well be other Deputies on all sides of the House with suggestions for its improvement. We shall take on board any such suggestions. Of course the best way to co-operate is to agree to its Second Reading and to make appropriate amendments on Committee Stage. I have heard it suggested that the Government may oppose the Bill on the grounds of its being unconstitutional. I find that difficult to understand and accept. In drafting this Bill we sought legal advice from the Labour lawyers group and were satisfied that it is not unconstitutional. If it were found to be unconstitutional then it would raise a serious question about the Planning Act of 1963 since its provisions were followed faithfully in the drafting of this Bill. Even if there are some legal or technical problems of which we are not aware, I hope the Minister will respond in a positive, rational way, by introducing whatever amendments his legal advisers tell him are necessary, when I can assure him that he will find us very constructive in attitude.

It is vital that we take action now. If we do not we shall lose one of the oldest and finest oak woods in all of Europe. This Bill constitutes our response to a particular problem. We have examined the answer the Government have advanced over the past few weeks. We are aware that the county manager has now given consent for the felling of trees, with conditions, covering a period of ten years. That consent will mean that 2,300 trees standing at present will be reduced to 700 when the felling programme has been completed over the ten-year period. That does not constitute an adequate response to the problem. That is why we, on this side of the House, and my party in particular, have brought this Bill before the House as a matter of urgency. We are told by experts it is not unconstitutional.

I know that money is scarce and that the compensatory provisions of the 1963 Planning Act may mean that some compensation would arise had we not introduced this Bill. We are asking the Government to take this Bill on board and, if they foresee problems, to amend or improve it. We are not asking that they simply say this evening: "Your Bill is not good enough, it is unconstitutional", or give some other reason. We must have Government co-operation in this matter because no other response will save the Coolattin Woods. Since becoming a Member of this House for the Wicklow constituency I have initiated proposals on many occasions in an endeavour to save the Coolattin Woods. Nevertheless, I do not mind endeavouring to save what remains at this late hour in the hope that we will have the co-operation of the whole House, rather than any criticism of me — a member of Wicklow County Council since 1969 — pursuing relevant legislative action.

I ask the House to accept the serious problem we have in County Wicklow, which is acknowledged not only here but beyond this country. Deputies, members of Wicklow County Council, will be aware of the number of letters and objections that have flowed into their offices in the knowledge that these woods might be totally or partially destroyed in ensuing years. There have been objections raised by groups like An Óige, the ICA, Bord Fáilte, other individuals, university lecturers, graduates, students, people representing all walks of life, I am seeking the co-operation and generosity of this House and the Government in meeting the needs of this situation. If we cannot have that united——

Are the provisions of this Bill supposed to have retrospective effect?

I am sorry, Deputy, it would not be in order for us to interrupt the Deputy, who has 40 minutes.

This Bill has been on the Order Paper for some weeks now. If its provisions were retrospective to that date I am sure that would be sufficient. I hope the provisions will be retrospective. In any event, we have taken action, we have introduced a Bill, constituting the only adequate response to the problem obtaining. I hope the Government will be sufficiently generous to respond to our invitation and to act on it.

This Bill proposes to amend and extend the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, and, according to its long title, is intended to make provision, in the interests of the common good, for the better preservation and protection of trees and woodlands of special recreational or amenity value, or of outstanding natural beauty. I am sure that all of us in this House would wish, if it were possible to do so, to support a Bill which would achieve these broad objectives. However, the House must consider the individual provisions of the Bill, and their effects, before deciding whether it can adopt the approach proposed, I propose, therefore, before setting out the Government's attitude to the Bill, to spell out my understanding of the specific provisions it contains.

Section 2 of the Bill would amend section 45 of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, by adding a new paragraph to subsection (2). While it appears to me that some words have been omitted from the proposed new paragraph, the intention is quite clear, that is, that no compensation will be payable where a consent to fell woodland trees is refused, or granted subject to conditions, under a tree preservation order which declares that the trees are of special amenity or recreational value, of special interest, of outstanding natural beauty, or are part of or comprise any view or prospect of special amenity value or special interest. In other words, section 2 would, in many cases, abolish the right to compensation which exists under present law when a person can show that he has suffered damage in consequence of a refusal of consent, or a conditional consent, to fell trees which are comprised in woodlands.

Section 3 of the Bill is a fairly straightforward provision. It proposes to insert a new section in the 1963 Act so as to require planning authorities to publish, in a daily newspaper and in a local newspaper, notice of every decision made by them on an application for consent to the felling of trees to which a tree preservation order relates.

The main objective of section 4 is to provide for an appeal to An Bord Pleanála by any interested person against a decision by a planning authority on an application for consent to the felling of trees to which a tree preservation order relates. The section goes on to specify criteria which must be taken into account by the board in dealing with such an appeal and it spells out the procedural provisions which would apply. In addition, the section would expressly authorise the board to attach any conditions they think proper to their decision and, in particular, to attach to their decision all or any of the conditions listed in section 4 (7). These include conditions for regulating the development or use of adjoining or adjacent land which is under the control of the applicant for the consent, conditions for requiring the planting of trees or the carrying out of landscaping, conditions for requiring the provision of open spaces or the carrying out of works such as the provision of roads, car parks, sewers, drains or the like, and so on. Under the section, the power to attach conditions of this kind would apply only to An Bord Pleanála. The planning authority which would, of course, continue to be required to deal with all applications in the first instance, would have no corresponding powers.

Section 5 of the Bill deals with the compensation provisions which would apply where decisions are made by An Bord Pleanála on appeals to it under section 4. It provides, in subsection (1) that if a felling consent is refused by the board or granted subject to conditions, any person whose interest in the land is reduced will be entitled to be paid by the planning authority, by way of compensation the amount of the reduction in value together with compensation for any damage suffered by him in a trade or business carried out on the relevant lands. This formula for assessing compensation appears to be based on section 55 of the 1963 Act, which deals with cases where permission for development is refused or granted subject to conditions, rather than on the formula provided for in section 45 (2) of the 1963 Act which at present applies in relation to tree felling consents. However, subsection (2) of section 5 goes on to provide that no compensation will be payable in respect of a decision made by the board where the reasons for the decision fall within one or more of the six following paragraphs. The effect would be that no compensation would be payable where An Bord Pleanála decided that all or any of the following situations applied:—

(1) that the trees concerned, whether or not comprised in woodlands, are of special amenity value or special interest,

(2) that the trees or woodlands are of outstanding natural beauty or importance, which it is in the interests of the common good to conserve,

(3) that the trees or woodlands are part of, or comprise, any view or prospect of special amenity value or special interest,

(4) that the application for consent to fell trees or woodlands is premature, having regard to the age and state of maturity of the trees or any surrounding, adjoining or adjacent trees or woodlands,

(5) that having regard to the type, nature and age of the trees or woodlands, and the extent, state or condition of such trees or woodlands throughout the State, the trees or woodlands to which the application relates constitute a unique and special feature of the natural environment which, in the national interest, ought to be conserved for the common good, or

(6) that having regard to the extent to which trees or woodlands in the vicinity have already been cut down, it is in the best interests of the proper management, protection and preservation of the environment of the area that the trees or woodlands to which the application relates should not be felled.

In all or any of the circumstances which I have just described, no compensation would be payable under section 5 where the decision to refuse felling consent, or to attach conditions to such a consent, was made by An Bord Pleanála. Planning authorities themselves would, however, still be open to claims for compensation where the decision was made at local level and not appealed.

These, then, are the essential provisions of the Bill as I see them. I fully appreciate the reasons why a Bill of this kind should be contemplated and moved at the present time. Ireland possesses a unique inheritance of scenic, ecological and environmental resources. It is vital that this heritage should be preserved for the benefit of this and succeeding generations. Moreover, our natural heritage is one of the main foundations on which our tourist industry is based and it must be protected for this reason.

Much has been said and written in recent times about the decline of our broadleaved woodlands which today cover only a very small proportion of the land area of our country. In addition to their commercial significance, these woodlands make an enormous contribution to the landscape quality of our countryside. They are an essential element in many of our areas of outstanding natural beauty, they provide valuable shelter in the countryside and play an important part in nature conservation. There is growing awareness that many of our remaining broadleaved woodlands are vulnerable and tree preservation orders have been made by local authorities to protect them, in a number of cases. The House is aware, however, of the difficulties which exist in achieving preservation objectives of this kind. This is unfortunate, in view of the importance of preserving the amenity of our countryside and the significance of trees and woodlands for amenity and recreation generally. The fact that there has been very little private planting of broadleaved trees in recent years adds to the importance of preserving, as far as possible, existing trees and woodlands of this kind. For these reasons, I find myself very much in sympathy with the general objectives of the present Bill. However, as I said at the outset, we must examine the effects of the individual provisions of the Bill before deciding whether it can have the support of this House.

Any proposals to amend the law in relation to the compensation provisions of the Planning Acts must inevitably, be considered against the background of the provisions in the Constitution relating to property rights. The provisions in question are to be found in Article 40, paragraph (3) and in Article 43 of the constitution. These Articles have given rise to a significant body of case law in recent years and their interpretation and application in particular kinds of situations is a matter of great complexity.

I have sought the advice of the Attorney General on the question of whether the provisions of the Bill are consistent with the relevant Articles of the Constitution. I have to tell the House that the Attorney General has advised that the Bill would not withstand a challenge on constitutional grounds. In his view, legislation which would amend the Planning Acts so as to abolish compensation in the event of a refusal of consent to fell woodland trees would be found unconstitutional. In view of this advice, I have no option but to oppose the present Bill because, as the House is aware, Article 15, paragraph 4 of the Constitution, provides that the Oireachtas shall not enact any law which is, in any respect, repugnant to the Constitution or any provision of it.

The difficulty which has arisen for planning authorities because of the compensation provisions which at present apply in relation to consents for tree felling are paralleled by other problems which arise where permission for development is refused, or granted subject to conditions. As the House is aware, large compensation claims can be made against planning authorities, from time to time and while the total amount paid out by way of compensation is still relatively small, there is no doubt but that the freedom of action of the planning authorities is constrained by reason of the compensation liabilities which can be incurred. For these reasons, the Government accept that there is a need for a general review of the compensation provisions of the Planning Acts and we intend that this review will be carried out as quickly as possible. Some proposals in this regard have already been included in the Programme for National Recovery and these, together with other possible approaches, are being studied by my Department, in consultation with the Office of the Attorney General. The objective will be to bring forward as soon as possible a package of proposals which will strengthen, as much as possible, the position of planning authorities in dealing with planning applications generally. I can assure the House that the desirability of reinforcing the position of planning authorities in dealing with applications for tree felling consents will be given special attention in the course of the review and that all possible approaches to the problem which exists at present will be fully explored.

I accept, also, that there is a need for a review of other aspects of the law in relation to the preservation of trees and woodlands. However, it is important that the provisions of the Planning Acts and those of the Forestry Acts should be considered together with a view to devising the best possible combination of legislative and administrative measures for dealing with the matter.

Accordingly, I intend to establish a special working group, with representation from the Departments and offices concerned, to make recommendations on the legislative, administrative and organisational issues which arise in relation to the better protection of trees and woodlands. The group will need to consider how best responsibility for the protection and preservation of woodlands can be allocated as between the local planning authorities and the State and to consider what changes may need to be made to take account of the fact that the Government propose to assign responsibility for forestry development to a separate semi-State body.

I turn now to the provisions in sections 3 and 4 of the Bill which deal with the procedures relating to the treatment of applications for tree felling consent at local level and on appeal. I should perhaps first explain that in the normal way the felling of a tree does not constitute development within the meaning of the Planning Acts and does not, therefore, require planning permission. However, section 45 of the 1963 Act authorises planning authorities to make a tree preservation order if it appears to them to be expedient, in the interests of amenity, to make provision for tree preservation. The making of a tree preservation order has the effect of bringing tree felling within the controls exercisable under the Planning Acts. In effect, a tree covered by such an order may not be felled without the consent of the planning authority.

Each individual tree preservation order is required to apply, in relation to any consent under the order and any application for such consent, provisions of Part IV of the 1963 Act which relate to applications for permission to develop land. In the past, it was left very much to the individual planning authorities to decide for themselves which provisions of Part IV they should apply in making tree preservation orders. However, the situation is now very different in that my Department, in January 1986, issued to all planning authorities a document containing detailed advice and guidelines in relation to the making of tree preservation orders, together with a new model tree preservation order.

This new order provides for the application of all of the relevant provisions which apply in relation to planning applications generally, including the provision for the making of submissions by interested parties to the local planning authority, the notification to such persons of the planning authority decision and the making of appeals to An Bord Pleanála by any person, whether the applicant for the consent or a third party. The guidelines themselves reminded local authorities that a right of appeal is fundamental to the whole planning control system and they recommended that this should be provided for in every future tree preservation order.

It was recommended also that the provision for appeals should cover third parties as well as the applicant for consent, since the basic principles underpinning the planning control system require that the position of such parties should be fully protected. In line with this, the model tree preservation order now makes provision for applicants for consent to publish notice of their intention to do so, and provides also for the notification of consent decisions to any third party who has made representations at local level.

Having regard to the guidelines which now exist in relation to the making of tree preservation orders, and taking account of the new form of model order, I believe that sections 3 and 4 of the proposed Bill are quite unnecessary. The objective of these sections, with which I have no quarrel, can be achieved more effectively by the making of tree preservation orders which are consistent with the new model which is now being widely used for the past 18 months.

I realise that there may be a problem in relation to earlier tree preservation orders which lack provision for third party involvement and for appeals to An Bord Pleanála. However, it is open to local planning authorities to revoke or vary a tree preservation order by a subsequent order and so take care of any such defects. I intend to bring this matter to the attention of the planning authorities and I will request them to consider the need, in particular cases, for the replacement of existing orders by new orders drafted in accordance with the up-to-date model.

The House will appreciate that it would be inappropriate for me to become engaged in discussion of the details of particular cases in which the felling of trees is at issue. Decisions have still to be made by public authorities in relation to a number of these cases and I do not wish that any remarks of mine in this House should prejudice the outcome. I think it is appropriate, however, that I should set out for the record the position concerning the woodlands at Coolattin about which so much public concern has been in evidence in recent weeks.

Towards the end of March, five applications for consent to fell trees in the area known as Tomnafinnogue Wood were submitted to Wicklow County Council. The council decided on 19 May to refuse consent to four of the five applications and, in granting consent in the fifth case, they decided to attach a range of conditions aimed at preserving visual amenity and securing a satisfactory replanting programme. In particular, the council decided that felling should be carried out over a period of not less than ten years, with felling and extraction of trees in any year being confined to sectors of the wood not exceeding seven hectares in area. Other conditions required the owners of the woodland to retain all existing immature trees, to preserve special belts of trees 15 metres wide, and to replant the entire area with oak trees, with each sector being replanted before felling on the next sector commences. In addition, the council required that a bond should be lodged with them to ensure compliance with the tree felling and tree planting and maintenance conditions.

By a unanimous decision of Wicklow County Council, a special amenity order has been made in relation to the Tomnafinnogue Wood because of its outstanding natural beauty and by reason of the need for nature conservation. Notice of the making of this order is being placed in the local papers and a period of not less than one month will be allowed for objections to be made to the order before it is submitted to me for confirmation. If objections are duly made and are not withdrawn, a public local inquiry will be held and the objections will be considered before a decision on confirmation of the order is made. I can assure the House that when the special amenity area order is submitted to me by the county council, I will ensure that it is processed expeditiously.

I should explain that the Wicklow County Council decision does not, in itself, entitle the owners of the woodlands at Coolattin to fell the trees. A felling licence is still required from the Minister for Energy and it would, of course, be premature at this stage to speculate on what the outcome of such an application might be.

As I said at the outset, I would be very pleased if it were possible for me to support this Bill. However, for the reasons I have indicated and arising mainly from the unconstitutionality of some of the provisions in the Bill, I am obliged to oppose the motion for a Second Reading. I would ask the House to recognise the determination of the Government to press on with their own consideration of the options for dealing with tree preservation and to bring forward proposals for legislative and other changes designed to improve the situation. I appreciate there is genuine concern in the House in relation to this issue and I can assure Deputies there will be no avoidable delay in dealing with it.

There is no doubt that damage has taken place in Coolattin. I have been down there and what has taken place is a crying shame. Coolattin Woods has been decimated over the past number of years. It is regrettable that the mover of the legislation this evening did not get his courage up a little earlier to deal with this matter. It is a pity the Deputy who is so vocal now was not so vocal over the last few years. What we heard from him this evening was a monologue of self-justification. Saying he did what he could is hardly factual. What was preventing him or the Government he was representing introducing the legislation which he finds so accommodating now? The unfortunate thing is that the Deputy moving the legislation this evening made no defence of it because he knows it will not stand up. That makes me suspicious of his motives in producing this flawed legislation at this time. I can only conclude that his intention in introducing it tonight is less than politically honourable.

That is not fair.

If it is a fact that the Labour lawyers, as suggested by the mover of the legislation, have advised that this matter is constitutional, then there is something to be desired so far as their advice is concerned.

On what grounds is it not constitutional?

Why could that advice not have been available to the Deputy when he was Minister? Is it not the plain honest truth of the matter that this legislation, which was contemplated some time ago, was not introduced for the reason I gave this evening — that it is not constitutional. It is not fair or proper to be introducing flawed legislation for reasons which I believe are politically orientated.

On what grounds is it not constitutional?

It has nothing to do with protecting or preserving Coolattin Woods. We are taking action in this matter, and we are taking it now.

What action is being taken?

I do not know just what that action will be. My colleagues who have a direct input will be giving details of how this matter will be looked after. The Deputy can rest assured that following our efforts Coolattin Woods will survive.

Fianna Fáil were in Government before.

The Deputy got his chance but he did not do anything——

I am calling Deputy Barnes.

I could not let this opportunity pass without speaking on this very important issue. I welcome this debate and the attempt to introduce legislation which, as usual, is too late. We never seem to realise just what is happening until the harm is done. I have been elected to this House for a few years and one of the first causes of frustration to me was the length of time it takes to introduce legislation dealing with social, economic and environmental destruction. Again and again we come up against the closed door of the 1937 Constitution. It slams in our faces with a deathly knell because every time we seek to introduce reform in the areas I have mentioned we are told the Constitution does not allow it.

I welcome what the Minister said tonight and I thank Deputy Kavanagh for introducing legislation to preserve our trees. We must do all we can to preserve our heritage and to protect the rights of our people without being sued by developers, by tree fellers or by "scammers" of the worst kind who take over part of our heritage and then blackmail us to get compensation while being protected under the Constitution. This is outrageous and an insult to all who seek to work for the common good. I was reminded of how careful we must be of our heritage when Deputy Kavanagh briefly outlined the history of Coolattin Woods. He told us of the care and attention paid to growing those trees. It is only right that we remember that our heritage comes from all traditions. Our heritage of the large estates which were carefully husbanded, with good landscaping, woodlands and good farming is a responsibility which we must carry on. We must take care of our heritage for future generations.

The devastation of those trees has been a heartbreak for all who heard about it this evening. During the last Administration I attempted to have legislation introduced for the protection of trees. Coolattin Woods was only on the horizon at that time. I believed this was a matter of great urgency and common interest and that we should have been able to strengthen legislation in this area but we ran into an impasse because the Department of Fisheries and Forestry had some powers and the local authorities and the Department of the Environment had others but they did not insist on the preservation of trees.

If the Labour Bill is not accepted, I hope the working group will be set up very soon. Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted is futile, but it may be possible to recapture the horse. However in this case we are flogging a dead horse because 200 year old trees have been felled and they cannot be replaced.

The legislation does not preserve these woodlands. I would like to put a few questions to the House. How was the compensation introduced into the 1963 Act without some kind of balance which would not have allowed the kind of rip-off I have already described? What is the constitutional and most urgent way we can deal with that?

I have offered the other side of the House a few minutes of the time left to me, but in order to get an answer to my constitutional question, I will give three or four minutes to Deputy McDowell, who has informed me he can give a constitutional interpretation to my query. In giving him this time, I ask him to take into consideration the fact that I am curtailing my speech to allow Deputy——

The Deputy will appreciate that she is moving outside her rights in distributing her time. There is a practice that if a Deputy wishes to share the 30 minutes to which they are entitled with another Deputy, they can seek the permission of the House to so do. If the House agrees, it may be accepted. However, we will have to get the agreement of the House. That, I presume, will arise, when you have concluded your contribution.

I learn as I go along.

I will certainly observe the ruling of the Chair. After a severe storm last year the chainsaw massacre took on a whole new meaning. We did not have qualified people attached to local authorities to test damaged trees and many were felled which need not have been. They were seen as dangerous but when the deadly act had taken place it was discovered that far too many had been felled. The Minister and the working party should ensure that there are skilled qualified staff attached to local authorities on a regional basis which would ensure that a full-scale examination is carried out before trees are earmarked for destruction.

I abhor the fact that we give planning permission to housing and other developers for tree felling. I am reminded vividly of this when a whole community made an effort to save Dorney Woods, Shankhill. Too late, the residents discovered that the implementation of the planning permission for the erection of houses entailed the felling of many mature trees. Another problem arose in relation to trees which had preservation orders because when houses were built if those trees were within a certain distance of a house they could be deemed dangerous and the resident could demand that they be felled. We have enough land for housing development without using the few remaining woodland areas and green belts.

We need a new Constitution to deal with many issues and particularly this one. It is obscene that developers can singlemindedly set out to take over part of our heritage and then blackmail an already fundless authority to pay them huge compensation at the taxpayers' expense. That is not in the spirit of the Republic or the Constitution. Observing the rules of the House, is it possible also to give some of my time to the Minister, Deputy Smith?

The Chair will have to proceed in the ordered fashion. The Deputy is entitled to indicate her preparedness to share some of her time and then I formally ask the House if they agree to that request. I formally ask the House——

We are very favourably disposed to implementing Members' suggestions with your approval. Perhaps you are in a position to indicate when the second Labour speaker is likely to come in on our Bill?

The Deputy will appreciate that this is Private Members' Business and is governed by Standing Order 90 (2). In Private Members' time the debate swings from one side to the other and, therefore, in accordance with that requirement and assuming that Deputy Barnes has finished, I will be calling a Government speaker after which I will call a member of the Labour Party.

I intend to speak for three minutes whenever I am called.

The House agrees to your speaking for three minutes.

The advice given to successive Governments as to the import of the constitutional provisions which deal with private property is unduly restrictive. A number of distinguished commentators, some of them Members of the House — in particular Deputy Kelly — have commented on the constitutional implications of the private property Articles of the Constitution. They have pointed out on a number of occasions that they are very restrictively interpreted, especially by the Government and their Ministers, on advice from the Attorney General.

There is no general right to do anything you like with your property, irrespective of the social consequences. Even a superficial reading of the Constitution would not allow anyone to believe that that is the case. The Supreme Court recently dealt with the question of compensation paid under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963 to people who were refused compensation. Mr. Justice McCarthy questioned whether the present arrangements for payment of compensation are themselves constitutional because they are so ridiculous and so generous to people who are refused permission to exercise their property rights in an anti-social manner. The Minister and his advisers should look again at the Constitution with a critical eye and attempt to bring forward legislation which pushes the known limits as decided by judicial decisions one step further and which brings the Constitution into conformity with the views of ordinary people about the rights and duties of private property. Mindful of this, in the City Hall in which you on occasion appear, there is a statute to Drummond on the base of which there is an inscription which says that property has its duties as well as its rights. Article 43 (2) of the Constitution states:

The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

As a matter of urgency this House should tackle the 1963 Act, reverse its whole thrust and make it an exception rather than a rule that compensation is available. It should recognise the fact that planning control is now in civilised, socialised society, a necessary part of property rights and a necessary duty of property owners. We should finally bite the bullet in this regard and say that people who buy land with 200-year old trees on it, which are part of our national heritage, have no more right to fell such trees than they have to pull down round towers. We should say that their rights are those which are reconcilable with the common good and this House, as the legislative organ of the State, should set about what the Constitution requires it to do, to reconcile naked victorian property rights as understood in the principles of laissez-faire with the social and common good.

I am by no means a left-wing ideologue but we have had very bad advice in this House over the years. I know because I was in another party and through the then Taoiseach, Deputy FitzGerald, I heard very conservative advice given on this topic. I implore the Government to go to the Attorney General, to get a new charter in relation to property rights and their being understood in this House, to push through socially minded legislation in relation to property and to refer that legislation to the Supreme Court to have it tested. We are far too afraid of the attitude of the Supreme Court in this matter. If Mr. Justice McCarthy's utterances are anything to go by those fears are entirely groundless. Therefore, I implore the House to take a more courageous view on the property issue and not to regard the Constitution which is quite liberally drafted and, as Deputy Kelly has said, is indistinguishable from the Constitution of Yugoslavia, as so restrictive as to wipe out any possibility of socially progressive legislation.

First I thank my colleagues for affording me this opportunity to say a few brief words this evening on the matter before the House. I welcome the slightly belated conversion of the Labour Party to the necessity to deal with this problem a problem which, as the House is aware, has resulted from the recent developments in Coolattin Woods, County Wicklow. The House will be aware that Wicklow County Council recently granted permission, subject to conditions, to Bridge Farm to fell trees in that wood and in Tomnafinnogue Wood.

In spite of the fact that the county council have already taken a decision there are further stages in this development. First and foremost, it will be necessary for Bridge Farm to obtain a felling licence from the Department of Energy. It is no secret that the Government have been concerned about the developments which have taken place in relation to Coolattin Wood. Almost five-sixths of that woodland has been felled in, what one might consider, one fell swoop. We have now reached the final chapter and I can tell the House that this morning I received in the Department a notice of intention by Bridge Farm Company Limited to seek a felling licence. I can also tell the House that late this afternoon I issued a prohibition order on that notice and this will prohibit any further felling of trees in Tomnafinnogue. We now await the submission of an application for a felling licence.

I was in the position to make this decision because during a random visit to that wood in early May it was brought to my notice that the conditions which applied to the earlier licences had not been complied with. On receipt of that information I instructed officials of my Department to carry out an exhaustive and comprehensive inspection of the woods which had been clear felled and recently replanted. My fears were justified as the inspection demonstrated beyond all shadow of doubt and to my satisfaction that the mortality rate of the saplings or new plants is of such an order as to make it very easy for me to put a prohibition order on the present notice which is before me. The mortality rate of new plants in the clear felled area is of the order of 30 per cent. In some of the oakwood species it is over 40 per cent but on average in both the conifer and broad leaf species, particularly oakwoods, it is over 30 per cent. An acceptable level of mortality would be between 10 and 15 per cent but a mortality rate in the order of 30 per cent is totally unacceptable. Although I cannot claim to have any technical expertise in this matter I am strongly of the view that if you clear fell, particularly in relation to the replanting of oakwood species, it is very necessary for the young crop to have shelter and be protected from frost and heavy rainfalls. The growing and maturing older trees compete for unwanted vegetation which allows the young trees to develop.

I take the point which was made in relation to a more common good approach to our Constitution and legislation generally but that is down the road somewhat and I have to deal with this problem today. From this unfortunate chapter in our history we should develop a national strategy for broad leaf species. I am determined that my Department will gradually increase the percentage of broad leaf species planted each year and, also that the grant structure should encourage small private plantations to plant broad leaf species. That is a long term aim and my mandate is for commercial forestry but I respect, understand and share the concern of those who express the need to carry on to future generations our heritage, our wildlife habitats etc. Therefore, it is possible to pursue a vigorous, commercial policy without lessening the prospect of increased planting of broad leaf species and without lessening the protection of young, semi-mature woodland areas.

We should begin to inform everybody concerned that a national strategy is being developed in relation to broad leaf species but that development must then be carried through to its logical conclusion, to the point of felling. So far as I am aware, in most European countries there is no such thing as clear felling of broad leaf species. Felling is carried out in a sensitive and structured way which allows for the integration and development of the new crop. That is the kind of approach we should adopt and put in place with the proper legislative framework and backup it would require. It should be possible to put that kind of policy in place without the necessity for a large number of amendments to existing legislation. In that context, the Government will face up to whatever tasks are ahead of them to ensure that that aim is met. I am satisfied that every conceivable step will be taken to ensure that Toomnafinnogue Wood which is of great scientific importance will not have the same fate as its sisters and brothers.

Debate adjourned.
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