Deputy Haughey had been in possession and has two minutes remaining. Since Deputy Haughey is not present, perhaps we can move across to Deputy Dukes and then to Deputy Daly.
Air Navigation and Transport (Amendment) Bill, 1997: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".
If that is agreeable, Sir, although I fancy that Deputy Daly will require more than two minutes.
My understanding was that Deputy Dukes was benefiting from the two minutes.
I listened last evening to Deputy Haughey and felt as if I was in the presence of the dawn breaking. I do not claim to see the dawn break very often or that, when I do, I am in a condition in which I can appreciate its more aesthetic aspects but it is a wonderful sight. There I see the dawn breaking over the Fianna Fáil benches, light coming upon them and beginning to realise what has been hidden from them up to now. Deputy Haughey spoke last evening, in a manner with which I agree on the whole, about the Luas project and what the Minister for Public Enterprise had in store for us. It may not have seemed directly relevant to the Bill but he did make the link, if I may coin a phrase, between the Luas and Dublin Airport.
Although the dawn breaking is a lovely sight to behold the cold light of dawn can show us some very ugly things. Deputy Haughey saw the dawn breaking when he spoke, revealing to us that the Minister for Public Enterprise had in store putting off the prospect of a rail link of a particular kind to Dublin Airport. However, I do not think he was thinking about it in the right context, about what she proposes vis-a -vis Luas which in effect will kill that project as we know it.
Another bit of the dawn that is breaking is somewhat more hopeful. The dawn is now breaking on the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, the Taoiseach and members of the Fianna Fáil Party, revealing to them how wrong the Taoiseach was in 1991 and 1992 when, as Minister for Finance, he agreed to a European Union Council of Ministers' decision to end duty free sales in the middle of 1999. I am delighted that the light has finally broken on them. If I am not mistaken, Deputy Daly was present when I had the honour earlier this year of celebrating the 50th anniversary of the founding of the first duty free shop in the world at Shannon Airport, Rineanna as it was known then. I think Deputy Daly agreed with me then that it was time we bestirred ourselves to ensure that this duty free facility, a very important part of airport and airline operations, to say nothing of sea transport operations, is preserved from the stupidity about to be visited on us as a result of a unanimous decision taken by the Council of Ministers in 1992 to put an end to duty free sales in 1999. I am delighted that the dawn has finally broken over that side of the House, that they now realise how wrong that decision was and how mischievous it could be for the interests of people who travel by air and sea and for those who work in our airports, airlines and duty free operations.
I was amused to hear Deputy Haughey last evening quote some of the lines used by the Minister for Public Enterprise. I was amused and had a fond feeling of paternity about some of his remarks because she was using some of the best lines from a speech I made in June last on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of Shannon Airport and from two speeches I made since then in Brussels in assisting the campaign to maintain duty free.
I am glad the Government is acting in that way and hope it will continue in that vein because there is far more riding on this than has become apparent so far. In that regard, I am somewhat disappointed that the campaign has not been as vigorous as I had hoped it would be when I first spoke about it in June last. I was told then that we would see over the summer in airports, on airlines and ferries a vigorous campaign to sensitise public opinion to the implications of what had been decided so that we could get public opinion moving and, by dealing with legislation here and in other member states, ensure we could continue to make the kind of progress now been made in getting the governments of other member states to reverse engines on that fallacious and stupid proposition that led to the 1992 decision.
So far I have seen very little evidence of that campaign. In the course of the past summer I travelled by ferry once only on a return journey between Ireland and France. In the intervening period, in the many things I do, I travelled by air many times. Only once did I see any airline, any activity, designed to bring this problem to the attention of the public. That was on a British airline, Monarch Airlines, which as far as I understand is mainly a charter airline, which had painted on the side of at least one of its aircraft "Keep Duty Free". That is the only sign I have seen in a fair number of air journeys during the period. I have not seen any leaflets being handed out in the cabins of aircraft or in duty free shops in airports. Nor did I see leaflets being handed out on a ferry between Ireland and France. If I can presume as a legislator to advise those who are working on wider public opinion, they will have to encourage the people involved to become more active if they are really serious about this matter. We have gone from a position where the then Minister for Finance found it difficult to get support in December 1996 for the retention of duty free sales to a position where at least two other member states have joined the campaign. I hope others follow because that will be important for the company we are setting up in the Bill.
I am glad to see the Bill coming before the House. I had hoped in more favourable circumstances to bring the Bill through the House myself but these matters pass beyond our individual control. The Bill is welcome nevertheless because it is important that Aer Rianta should be put on a basis that gives it the kind of commercial mandate and freedom required to operate airports in this increasingly competitive environment. Aer Rianta needs the kind of structure being given by the Bill to get the commercial freedom to respond to the position in which it finds itself. That is not to criticise any of the people who have been Ministers for Transport. I wish the Taoiseach would stop renaming Departments; it is tedious to have to remember a new name every time a new Government comes into power. With the best will in the world, a Minister is not the best placed person to set down policy for an operation that must live in a commercial, competitive and trading environment. It is a tribute to Aer Rianta that it has been so successful while operating under a rather anomalous set of rules and regulations, and it is past the time that we should give it the type of corporate structure to allow it adapt itself to the realities of the market in which it must operate.
Aer Rianta has been successful. It runs three State airports. It makes a profit at a sufficient level to allow it sustain the kind of investment to allow our airports compete. It has made a profit, particularly in the last year, while at the same time introducing various creative formulae in relation to landing charges — an important part of encouraging airlines to increase the amount of business they do — and increasing the rate of services they offer, thereby improving both business and tourism links for this country.
My many friends in Aer Rianta will not feel I am being harsh when I say that we should not go overboard in our praise of Aer Rianta's profitability. I would like to see Aer Rianta being even more profitable. It has successfully spread its wings, to coin a phrase, in running duty free shops and in advising people on the running of these shops. That is a significant part of the business on which it is to be congratulated. I hope we do not clip Aer Rianta's wings by sticking to this nonsensical decision in which the current Taoiseach participated in 1992. As a company Aer Rianta has also decided to follow its own core business, which is running airports, and diversify into airports elsewhere; Birmingham Airport has been the first of these. Approaches have been made to other ventures which have not been as fruitful as the one in Birmingham but the company is on the right track in seeking to spread the range of its interests in the operation of airports, and it should be encouraged to do so. The mandate given to the company in sections 22 to 25 is one that is properly suited to its operation. I stress it is a commercial mandate for a company involved in a very competitive business. A mandate of any other kind, especially a Marxist mandate, would be doomed to failure.
I wish to comment on several areas of the Bill in the hope that answers will be given at the end of Second Stage and that it will not be necessary to deal with them in too much detail on Committee Stage.
(Dublin West): What is a Marxist mandate?
The mind boggles. Thank God the company has a good commercial mandate, not this airy-fairy failure of a system that has thrown millions of people into misery and penury that they did not deserve for 50 years.
(Dublin West): Who supports that in this House?
Deputy Dukes, without interruption.
I did not interrupt the Deputy and I thank him not to interrupt me.
(Dublin West): The Deputy did interrupt me. I want to make it clear that I do not support the Stalinist system.
I did not accuse the Deputy of being Stalinist. I accused him of being a Marxist which is every bit as bad. I accused the Marxists of being at the root of all the excesses of Stalinism and everything else that came from it.
The Deputy believes in the profit motive.
I ask the Minister to reflect on whether the definition of aircraft in section 2 covers helicopters. We had this debate on the Irish Aviation Authority Bill and I am not sure if it has been properly resolved. This definition defines aircraft as machines that can do certain things from the reactions of the air, other than the reactions of the air against the earth's surface. The reaction of the air against the earth's surface is an important part of the aerodynamics of flying helicopters and I ask the Minister, therefore, to examine that definition again.
There is a definition in the Bill of pilot in command which I ask the Minister to examine also because it is defined as being the person who is for the time being lawfully in charge of piloting the aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft. There may be a fault in that definition because a pilot in command will sometimes find himself carrying out what is called a check ride. He is under supervision from somebody else who is not in command of the aircraft. Some reconsideration might be required in regard to that definition.
Coming to more weighty matters, section 16 sets out the powers of the company to manage, develop and establish airports. It provides in subsection (4) for the company to take over the functions of the Irish Aviation Authority in cases where the IAA ceases to provide terminal services. It would be useful if, in reply to the Second Stage debate, the Minister would indicate the circumstances in which he believes the authority might do this because that could have some implications for the way the company goes about the provision of the services. These are not the kinds of services that are central to the operation of the company, although I understand the reason for the provision.
There is a curious provision in section 21(7) to do with the construction of new roads or approaches to the airports by the airport company. It is that the company may have to make a contribution to the maintenance of certain kinds of works where they involve the construction of an embankment, a bridge, a tunnel or similar works. That may well be a sensible provision but it is not clear from the text whether what is envisaged is a once-off capital contribution or a series of ongoing current contributions. There may be an argument about the appropriateness of making a contribution but, for the sake of the running of an airport company, it may be desirable to have such a contribution sorted out once and for all, so that the company will know where it stands rather than having to make recurring contributions subject to some uncertainty.
I am concerned the Minister has not given full consideration to the implications of another provision in the Bill. Once the company is set up the immunity of the State airports from local authority rates will be abolished. The airports at Dublin, Cork and Shannon will become liable for rates. I had the experience many years ago of bringing a valuation Bill to the House and there would be much entertainment to be had in deciding the rateable valuation of any of those airports and even more entertainment in deciding how the rates would be paid on their substantial physical installations. Rates would add considerably to the cost of running the airports.
I do not see a compelling reason for making a gift to the local authorities in question — Fingal, Cork and Clare county councils. I have nothing against those excellent bodies but I am not persuaded that it is right to give them a present of a large amount of money if the result is to add costs to the running of the three State airports, at a time when we want those airports to be in a position to offer more competitive services to the airlines and their passengers.
The provisions in sections 22 to 25 about the operations of the company empower it to provide services and facilities. Is there anything in these provisions which will prevent the airports from getting others to provide these services or facilities on a contract basis? This is already being done in some instances — for example, some of the services in Shannon Airport are provided by contractors. It would be important for the three airports that the company continued to have the ability to have services provided in that way. I will be happy if the Minister indicates that the Bill permits that to continue. If not, I recommend that he formulates an appropriate amendment for Committee Stage.
I compliment the Minister, and compliment myself in doing so, for the way in which the Bill provides for making various orders. One kind of order in the Bill cannot be made unless it is actively approved by the Houses of the Oireachtas. The others which operate under the 21 day system are appropriate to that system.
Section 33 provides for airport charges, particularly charges by the company with the approval of the Minister. Is it intended to make provision for the grounds on which the Minister of the day might refuse to approve those charges? That would be an important matter in the context of the commercial freedom of the company.
Section 64 provides for the recovery of charges by the Irish Aviation Authority in the event of the detention and sale of an aircraft. Sections 34 and 35 deal with a similar issue. It is not clear whether in the event that section 64 applies it prevails over sections 34 and 35. Will the Minister indicate in his reply how the sections function together and whether they are properly consonant?
This Bill is long overdue. Subject to the questions I have raised being answered satisfactorily, I am sure it will give the company the freedom it will need to carry out its business. I hope we will see the company continue to expand and to provide the services needed.
I welcome the Bill. I congratulate the Minister and Minister of State on their appointments and wish them every success. The Bill gives us an opportunity to look back over the history of Aer Rianta since its establishment and to look forward to the challenges and opportunities ahead. It will give statutory effect to what has been developing in recent years.
I will direct my comments to Shannon Airport mainly and its importance to the region. Since its establishment Shannon Airport has been the focal point of great development in the mid-west region, an area which was almost static for many years. It has created many jobs in direct employment in the airport and has had a great economic impact in the region. It has brought in large numbers of tourists thus offering opportunities to those in hotel, leisure, car hire and other businesses. A great deal of the economic activity in the region centres on the activity at the airport and the work of Aer Rianta and the other State agencies involved.
Aer Rianta has been turned around in recent years. In many debates in the House we had opportunities to discuss what we felt was necessary for the airport to generate business, employment and economic prosperity. I pay tribute to the contributions made by Aer Rianta board members over the past 25 years, regardless of their political affiliations. During Mr. Frank Boland's time as chairman of Aer Rianta — he was appointed by Fine Gael — I dealt with him on various issues. I always found him to be impartial and straightforward in his dealings and totally committed to the development of the airport business. Whenever I discussed issues of the day with him I found him forthcoming and helpful. He did a magnificent job during his time as chairman. I also pay tribute to the late Mr. Peter Hanley who, at a difficult time for the economy, gave wholehearted dedication to Aer Rianta. Similarly, people like Mr. Jack Daly and Mr. Dermot Desmond, who deserve credit, are enormously successful in business and regardless of their political affiliations it is good that successful business people are available to work in the national interest.
They are honest and good people, untainted by Marxist ideology.
I was glad that Mr. Paddy Wright took the opportunity to serve as chairman of Bord Iascaigh Mhara. At the time he was managing something like 50 companies for Dr. Michael Smurfit and his BIM salary was about £800 per annum. I think he put as much time and effort into BIM at a critical time, when it was launching its development plan, as he did into his other activities.
No Marxist baggage there either.
The salary was negligible and he paid most of it in tax. To denigrate people on those boards is to do a disservice to the boards themselves. I am also glad to have the opportunity to pay tribute to Mr. Derek Keogh, who is now retiring. He managed airports at a critical time when many businesses were going out of operation and changes were being made to international aviation policy and the type of aircraft being used. This presented formidable challenges to airports like Shannon. The board of Aer Rianta developed links through Aer Rianta International, whose achievements should be recognised. Before there was any relaxation of attitudes to the Soviet Union, Aer Rianta forged links with that country through the development of Aeroflot flights through Shannon and the promotion of traffic and business through other central European states.
Non-Marxist commercial links.
Those were difficult days but the board charted a course which has proved lucrative and has provided not only benefit to Aer Rianta but also job opportunities to many young Irish people who went to work in Moscow and other parts of the Soviet Union and made a major contribution to the overall success of the company.
That success over the last 60 years can be seen in the mid-west, where the economy is thriving. More tourists come every year and those involved in that sector — in bed and breakfasts, guest houses, hotels and a range of other activities — make a major contribution to the economic life of the region. The board and staff of Aer Rianta must be congratulated. As Deputy Dukes said, Aer Rianta forged new ways of developing business, some of which are to be commended. For instance, its involvement in the hotel school in Shannon and with Great Southern Hotels and Shannon Hotels has introduced something which was urgently needed — basic training in top quality hotel management through the hotel school and accommodation adjacent to the airport. All this is central to the successful operation of Shannon.
Not only was Aer Rianta successful in creating job opportunities through Aer Rianta International, the hotel school, the sales and catering college and the mail order departments, through its involvement with the development company and the community, it also introduced new aircraft maintenance industries, thus opening up opportunities for young people to obtain training and skills in aircraft maintenance. The Shannon aviation park has also been successful in attracting overseas aviation companies willing to create technical employment that will provide more jobs and revenue for the region in the future.
I have queries about some of the restrictions in the Bill. These relate mainly to the provisions of section 4, which concerns the disposal of moneys. This is a typical Civil Service section which is included in almost every Bill, providing that the Minister for Finance will use any revenues accruing from this legislation for the benefit of the Exchequer. The former Minister for Finance is smiling because he is fully aware that the procedure in the past has been that any moneys accruing will go to the Exchequer. This section should be amended so that any revenue accruing to the Minister as a result of this legislation — which could be substantial, perhaps £200 million — should be used for the direct benefit of the airports.
(Dublin West): No one has responded to my point about speculation at Dublin Airport.
Deputy Daly without interruption, please.
The same applies to any dividends accruing under section 12, which will go to the Exchequer. All dividends accruing from this legislation should be used to develop, expand and promote the airports themselves.
I am also concerned about section 16, which concerns the power to manage and develop the airports. Another section deals with marketing and there is a particular problem in Shannon in that for many years we have felt it necessary to have a strong marketing section in either Aer Rianta, Shannon Development or the aviation companies like Aer Lingus. Everyone knows the difficulty which has arisen from each body conducting its own marketing. We in Shannon felt it was necessary to co-ordinate, which is why we introduced the marketing initiative involving Aer Rianta, the county council, the regional authorities, SIPTU and Shannon Development.
SFADCo was established in 1959 because of changes in the pattern of aviation. People felt Shannon might overflow and it would be necessary to introduce a counter mechanism which would develop industry in the region. The customs free zone was set up and Shannon was successful in attracting new industries. That is still advancing; there will be 1,000 more people working in Shannon this time next year than there are at present and this is due in no small measure to the success of the development company. In this regard, section 16 should be strengthened to include a provision for the promotion of airports, especially Shannon. This would strengthen the marketing drive for Shannon Airport and would give a clearer indication of how it would be marketed in the future. The airport will face difficulties, as it is facing at present in the changes of operation in the aviation business. There will be a constant need for further marketing strategies and to have finances directed to that end.
Section 20 provides that the company will have the power to sell water. I presume this gives it the power to buy water also. Valuations will not be as difficult as Deputy Dukes think. In effect they exist already.
Debate adjourned.