Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 1997

Vol. 485 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Christmas Trading.

Mr. Broughan

Extensive discussions took place in the Dáil between myself, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Tom Kitt, and others in recent weeks about Sunday trading and the changing nature of shopping. In this festive season, with only one day before the Dáil adjourns for the Christmas holidays, I wish to raise the prospect of late night and all night trading — certain shops will remain open for 36 hours and longer — in residential areas. This will affect many districts in Dublin, particularly Donaghmede, and others in cities such as Galway and Cork.

I am specifically concerned with the area of Donaghmede, a parish which comprises approximately 2,500 to 3,000 households. The people there are deeply upset by the prospect, from Friday onward, of late night shopping — until midnight — and all night trading — particularly at Dunnes Stores — at Donaghmede Shopping Centre. This centre, with its large carpark, is located within ten to 15 metres of dozens of households on Newbrook Road, Donaghmede Road and other nearby streets. The residents are faced with the prospect of the shopping centre opening early next Tuesday morning and operating continuously until it closes late on Christmas Eve. Residents are aghast, horrified and deeply upset at the prospect of traffic chaos, noise pollution and intrusive lighting from the shopping centre during this overnight shopping. Literally metres from their doors, people will be opening and shutting cars, pushing shopping trolleys and talking loudly in the middle of the night under bright lights. This is a dreadful prospect. It is also possible that people will pour out from public houses, clubs, etc. to descend on this area for all night shopping.

One of the most annoying aspects is that valuable and limited Garda resources will be deployed to protect the late night and all night opening. Given the Government's policy of zero tolerance, so called, one wonders at the wisdom of moving Garda resources away from more deprived areas with greater security needs.

The potential traffic problems are particularly upsetting. This time last year the queues stretched two and a half miles from the Dunnes Stores complex at Cornelscourt. Despite the fact that Donaghmede Community Development Association and I have made representations over many months, we have so far not gained a proper response or an offer to negotiate from Dunnes Stores executives such as the former Assistant Garda Commissioner, Mr. Tom King, or Mr. Pat Doherty, the owner of Donaghmede Shopping Centre. The decision to provide all night shopping may not be too disruptive in some locations but Donaghmede Shopping Centre is built in the centre of a densely populated residential area.

Most residents are deeply upset because Dunnes Stores has an agenda which puts profit, wealth and greed before the wishes of local residents or organised family life. Their plans will be extremely destructive and one must wonder at the role of Dunnes Stores over the last decade, in which it has effectively subverted the political process, not to put too fine a point on it. In this case it is inflicting a way of life which we do not want on north Dubliners and Irish people.

The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, Fianna Fáil, the Progressive Democrats and the local representatives in the constituency have effectively washed their hands of this matter and are blaming EU law for this problem in Donaghmede. However, the Minister stated on 9 December, in reply to a question from Deputy Bell, that the Shops (Hours of Trading) Act, 1938 governs the opening hours of retail establishments and provides for a ban on Sunday trading for most shops but gives the Minister power to add to the list of exempted businesses or to exempt specified regions from the provisions of the Act. An order made later that year exempted the entire country from the provisions of the Act and effectively removed all restrictions on Sunday trading. This remains the position.

The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and their parties could at the stroke of a pen regulate the growth of what should be called anti-social trading. However, they are refusing to do so. At this peaceful Christmas season, they are inflicting on the people of Donaghmede something they do not want. They are upset because their family lives will be disrupted. The Minister can stop this by statutory instrument and that is what he should do.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. T. Kitt)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I appreciate his strong views about Donaghmede Shopping Centre. The question of late night and all night trading in residential areas is a legitimate issue for the Adjournment but the issue of Sunday trading is also connected. The Deputy will appreciate we have had exchanges on this in the Dáil and in public and there is a complex legal background. The last Government endeavoured to deal with these issues and I am also concerned, particularly with the Sunday trading issue. In the limited time available I will cover the legal background.

The Deputy rightly referred to the Shops (Hours of Trading) Act, 1938, which had as its aim the governing of the hours of trading which are permitted in this country. The Act was brought in 60 years ago as a method of controlling competition and was not intended to deal with such matters as conditions of employment or any other matter relating to shopping. The Act dealt with Sunday trading, half day holidays and hours of trading. Deputies will know of the position regarding Sunday trading which I am dealing with at present.

At the time of the passing of the 1938 Act it was felt that where a number of shops were in competition with each other, it was difficult for them to observe reasonable hours if one of their number decided to remain open. It must be borne in mind that we are talking about a period where the number of shops was relatively fixed, economic growth was static and incomes were low. The then generally gloomy economic conditions were exacerbated by a falling population due to a high level of emigration.

Under the Act numerous orders were made which governed the hours shops could open. The first such order was made in 1939 and the last was made 30 years ago. The orders were specific as to geographic area and sector. The sectors covered were drapery and boot shops, hairdressing shops, hardware shops, boot repairing and in one case the category of miscellaneous shops in respect of Tuam.

Mr. Broughan

That could cover Dunnes Stores.

Mr. T. Kitt

It is interesting that it was in respect of Tuam, where I went to boarding school. The way the Act operated was that a specific class or type of shop in a specified area had restrictions placed on the times it could open and close. Generally speaking shops could not open before 9 a.m. and had to close no later than 6 p.m. or in some towns by 6.30 p.m. I must emphasise again that the sectors covered were very restrictive. For example, in Dublin only two sectors had their trading hours regulated, boot repair and hairdressing shops. The then normal way for trading hours to be regulated was for either trade associations or trade unions or both to petition the Minister to regulate the particular sector. The Minister had to be satisfied that there was consensus between all concerned and only then would make an Order under the Act. It reminds me of the position I am in now but I will come to that.

Mr. Broughan

Make the order.

Mr. T. Kitt

The Shops (Hours of Trading) Orders gradually fell into disuse over the years as both traders and employees realised that it was to their mutual benefit to have greater flexibility in opening hours. This movement also coincided with changes in society. Initially the main reason the old regime fell into disuse was the increasing use of private cars. Because the orders were specific as to towns, people could avoid what was increasingly becoming a restrictive practice by driving to the next town which perhaps did not have an hours of trading order or had one with different hours.

Mr. Broughan

That is what will happen next Tuesday night — everyone will drive to Donaghmede.

Mr. T. Kitt

Given this evolution over the years, the Shops (Hours of Trading) Orders are no longer operative. It would be difficult both legally and practically to devise regulations which would cater for all the complexities of our modern life and the requirements of consumers. For example, I do not believe that anyone would object to the trading of all night petrol stations, most people would say they were a necessity. However some of the more modern petrol stations have the characteristics of a small shop or supermarket. A law which restricted sales to petrol and related products would in reality be unreasonable and unenforceable. This is just an example of a relatively simple situation.

Mr. Broughan

The shop at a petrol station is usually closed at night.

Mr. T. Kitt

The problems I assume the Deputy is referring to are those relating to public order and nuisance. Local residents often complain of cafés, etc., creating traffic congestion, noise and often more serious disturbance long after pubs and clubs have closed. I understand and sympathise with these people but the problem is essentially a public order one and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has over the years sponsored legislation to give the Garda powers to deal with this type of nuisance. Residents who sometimes complain about traffic congestion at such centres late at night can have these problems solved by the local authorities and the gardaí who are responsible for regulating traffic. I know some local authorities have introduced traffic calming measures which have proved successful.

Mr. Broughan

Those cannot be introduced in Donaghmede.

Mr. T. Kitt

As far as the interests of the employees are concerned — this is crucial — issues such as the conditions of employment and rates of pay in the retail trade are governed by an Employment Regulation Order and some outlets in the clothing and footwear trade are governed by a registered employment agreement. The primary purpose of these legally binding agreements is to set minimum rates of pay and terms and conditions of employment. In addition to being bound to the provisions of the ERO or REA, the larger employers in the sector have entered into collective agreements which generally exceed the minimum pay and conditions of the ERO or REA. Another provision which provides protection to employees is the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997, which implements the EU Working Time Directive (93/104/EC) and provides for minimum daily, weekly and annual rest, a minimum rest break during the day, limitations on maximum weekly working time and limitations on night work. The Act introduces fundamental standards in these areas to protect the health and safety of employees. In line with the Directive, the Act is based solely on health and safety considerations to protect employees from damage to their health caused by the continuous working of long hours without adequate rest.

The Act is being commenced in stages from 30 September 1997 with improved holidays, provision of information on working time and zero hours protection for employees already in place. From 1 March 1998 the new maximum average working week will be 48 hours. Averaging may be balanced out over a four, six or 12 month period, depending on the circumstances. Every employee has a general entitlement to 11 hours' daily rest per 24 hour period and a day off per week which must be preceded by the 11 hours' daily rest. These rest breaks and intervals may be varied if there is a collective agreement in place approved by the Labour Court. Variations may also occur in certain sectors e.g. agriculture, tourism, continuous processing, etc. The employee has an entitlement to take equivalent compensatory rest if there are variations in rest times and rest intervals under agreements or in the permitted sectors. In addition, I have previously announced the measures which I have taken to initiate discussions between the social partners on the sensitive question of Sunday working and I am glad to confirm that ICTU and IBEC have now responded positively to this initiative.