Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 are related and amendment No. 15 is an alternative to amendment No. 14; all three amendments may be discussed together by agreement.
Private Members' Business. - Teaching Council Bill, 2000: Report Stage (Resumed).
Debate resumed on amendment No. 12:
In page 10, to delete lines 4 to 7.
–(Deputy Shortall).
Minister for Education and Science (Dr. Woods): My intention in this section is simply to lay out a structure for the operation of the council. It will continue to be a responsibility of the Minister for Education and Science to set out general policy for the effective administration of the education system of which the components of probation teacher education and qualifications, and standards of teaching are of paramount importance. Within the context of such broad policies, the teaching council will be given specific tasks such as details of the code of conduct or the procedures for probation. It is of course not possible for the Minister to carry out these tasks without regard to the council. Equally, it is not appropriate for the council to have no regard to overall Government policies when it is carrying out its duties. This framework allows for a balancing of the roles and responsibilities of both parties to allow for a harmonious and coherent relationship. Accordingly, it is my view that the current draft of the Bill should be retained.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 13:
In page 10, line 21, after "teachers" to insert "(2 of whom shall be nominated by the Irish Primary Principals Network)".
The purpose of the amendment is to provide that the Irish Primary Principals' Network would have a nominating right for two members in the 11 places reserved on the teaching council for primary school representatives. On Committee Stage, the Minister of State said he did not want to be prescriptive in terms of the membership. He said it was possible for the principals to secure two of the 11 places which had been set aside for the primary sector. We rehashed this argument but, regrettably, the Minister did not see fit to change his mind, on Committee Stage at least. Principals and vice-principals bring a wealth of experience of the primary school system but they also bring a different perspective. In many respects, they are seen as managers or employers of the remaining staff whose immediate bosses they are. That perspective would be valuable on the council. If the Minister does not change his mind it is likely that 11 primary teachers will be elected to fill the slots. In addition, although it is impossible to be certain, it is quite likely that the principals and vice-principals will not be heard on the council. That would be regrettable so I would ask the Minister to reconsider this matter favourably.
I support amendments Nos. 13 and 14. I wish to speak to my own amendment No. 15, but the aims of all three amendments are the same. Earlier in the debate we discussed with the Minister the consultation that took place with various partners and the report by the steering committee. It is important to bear in mind that when that consultation took place neither of the principals' groups at primary or post-primary level was organised. The IPPN and the NAPD did not exist at that stage. We have all had contact, including correspondence and submissions, with both groups. In fact, representatives of the NAPD recently addressed the Committee on Education and Science. We were all extremely impressed by the fledgling organisation's professionalism.
Many people wondered why we had not heard from principals as a distinct body in the past. It is an idea whose time has certainly come. It is surprising that up to very recently principals were not organised on that basis. There is no doubt that principals have a distinct and particular role within the education system. The vast majority of them are members of the teacher unions but given the nature of our education system, principals are in an unusual in-between position, being neither staff nor management. They have a very different role to play and a different contribution to make to that of ordinary staff teachers. That role has been built upon and enhanced with the formation of their respective organisations at primary and secondary levels. In particular, the second level NAPD group has made enormous progress over the past year. Its submissions to our committee have been invaluable in examining education, particularly in respect of current difficulties within the post-primary sector.
The NAPD has been to the fore in raising issues which everyone now agrees need to be addressed by way of the commission on teaching. It has already made a submission for that proposed body. The NAPD has a significant contribution to make as an important voice within the education system. For that reason it is essential that principals should be represented on the teaching council. They have a specific and clear role concerning the recruitment and induction of new teachers, staff development and the preparation of school plans.
There are many reasons morale among teachers is low at the moment, but a significant factor is the extent to which a school is well managed. Most of the management work is done by the principals. We have not managed to transfer modern principles of staff development, management training and other techniques – which have now been accepted within public administration generally and certainly within the private sector – into our schools. We need to devote much more attention to this area in future and hopefully it will be considered by the commission on teaching.
School principals have a key role in setting and maintaining high standards of professional development and conduct. It will be essential to hear the voice of principals within the teaching council. I fully support the points made by Deputy Creed about primary school principals. When we discussed the Bill initially I was not even aware of the existence of the IPPN. It is now rapidly becoming organised, however, and to judge by some of its recent publications, the organisation is displaying the same type of expertise and professionalism which the secondary school principals' group has shown to date. There is a very important role for principals to play at both levels.
We must also learn a lesson from the experience in Scotland where a teaching council was established without any provision for principals. When the Scottish council had been in existence for some time, that gap in representation was recognised and the legislation had to be amended to provide for school principals to be represented. I appeal to the Minister, in the interests of the development of the teaching profession, to provide a central role for school principals.
I support these amendments. At a time when we expect partnership in education, it is unthinkable that we would establish a council involving the various partners in education and omit to involve or ignore the representatives of school principals and deputy school principals. Management, teachers, parents and the Department will be represented on the council and I do not know whether it was intentional that school principals and deputy school principals should be omitted. The Minister should reconsider the position and ensure they are included.
School principals and deputy school principals are responsible for the day to day operation of schools and the buck stops with them. For that reason, it is unbelievable that they will not be represented on the council. The nature of the council's business will necessitate their presence and contribution. They must be involved in the work or inquiries in which the council will be engaged. They must be requested to supply some of the information that will be required. They must be included if the council is to be all-embracing. I do not understand why they cannot be accommodated and it is unbelievable that they are being left out. They play a pivotal role in the management of schools and in conducting any inquiries which might arise.
School principals and deputy school principals want to be represented on the teaching council. The council may not function to full capacity because of their omission. I accept that teachers were omitted from certain bodies in the past. However, it is unbelievable that the Minister and whoever was responsible for deciding on the membership of the council took the option of omitting school principals and deputy school principals. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the position and include them on the council.
With regard to Deputy Burke's closing remarks, I point out that school principals served on both the steering committee and the technical working group, which were responsible for drawing up this plan of action.
They were Minister's nominees, they were not there by right.
The unions, teachers and school principals were all represented, in different capacities, on those bodies. The membership of the teaching council outlined in the Bill exactly reflects the proposals put forward by the steering committee. By and large, when drafting the Bill we went along the lines proposed by that committee. The steering committee sought to achieve a formula that would allow for a balance between teachers and lay people, include the teacher education institutions and the other partners such as school managers and parents and take account of the public interest. In undertaking this task, it relied heavily on the report of the technical working group which included among its members noted educational experts. Nevertheless, we should not understate the difficulty of this task. It is a tribute to the committee, particularly its chairman, Dr. Seamus McGuinness, that it was able to arrive at such an agreed formula.
Deputies will realise that I am, accordingly, reluctant to revisit such a formula. This formula is appropriate. I accept, however, that school principals are an important segment of the teaching profession. Their proven expertise and experience in the key areas of the teaching profession, such as induction and probation, makes it likely that the profession as a whole will choose to ensure that they are represented on the council, either through nomination by a teacher union or direct election by the body of teachers. However, I would prefer to leave this choice to the members of the teaching profession in order that they can judge for themselves who should be their representative on the teaching council. Should the council require the advice of any particular group in its consideration of any of its functions, it can seek it under section 53 which provides that it may make arrangements with other persons to assist it in carrying out its work. I cannot accept the amendments.
The Minister's response is disappointing. On one hand he seems to imply that school principals have a legitimate voice which should be heard while, on the other, he is closing the door on the manner in which they can secure representation on the teaching council. We rehearsed this argument at length on Committee Stage and I had hoped there might have been a change of heart in the Department in the interim. However, it is obvious the Minister is not amen able to these proposals. I intend to press the amendment.
I was disappointed by the Minister's reply because Deputy Creed and I made a strong case both on Committee Stage and here this evening. I am aware that this case has been put to the Minister or his officials by both of the organisations involved. The case stands on its merits. School principals have a key role to play in the education system and it is vital that they be represented on the teaching council. They were not represented, per se, on the steering group because, as already stated, their respective organisations were not in existence. The Minister should bear in mind the developments that have occurred since the initial consultations took place and ensure that they are represented.
Ideally, I would have liked to see the numbers increased, namely, that we would have retained the 11 teachers at both levels and, in addition, appointed two school principals. The Opposition, because of Standing Orders, could not propose the appointment of additional members. However, the Minister could have done so. He could have retained both sets of 11 teachers, as agreed. In the absence of that, it would have been a fair compromise if two places on each panel could have been set aside for school principals. This is a missed opportunity and we have no choice but to press the amendments to a vote.
I have explained to the Deputies that it is a balanced formula arrived at with great difficulty, by teachers, their union representatives, parents' groups and other relevant bodies to which they could adhere and subscribe. I am not prepared to upset that balance because, to do so, I would have to consult with everyone concerned. Teachers will be well represented on the council, as, I believe, will school principals.
They have no representation.
They will get it.
All they have obtained to date is a slap in the face.
Does the Minister expect their co-operation?
Amendment put.
Tá
|
Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Connaughton, Paul. |
Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Farrelly, John.Fitzgerald, Frances. Gilmore, Éamon. |
Tá–continued
|
Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Hogan, Philip.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan. |
Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack. |
Níl
|
Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Gildea, Thomas.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan. |
Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V. |
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Bradford and Stagg; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Power.
Amendment declared lost.
We now proceed to amendment No. 14 which has already been discussed. I ask Deputy Creed to formally move the amendment.
I move amendment No. 14:
In page 10, line 28, after "teachers" to insert "(2 of whom shall be nominated by the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals)."
Is the Deputy pressing the amendment?
Yes.
Amendment put.
Tá
|
Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Farrelly, John.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Hogan, Philip. |
Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack. |
Níl
|
Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy. |
Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V. |
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Bradford and Stagg; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Power.
Amendment declared lost.
Is Deputy Shortall formally moving amendment No. 15?
No, I am withdrawing it on the basis of the last vote.
Amendment No. 15 not moved.
Amendments Nos. 16 and 19 are related and are to be taken together by agreement.
I move amendment No. 16:
In page 12, to delete lines 12 and 13 and substitute the following:
"(6) The Minister shall ensure that at least 40 per cent of members shall be men and that at least 40 per cent of members shall be women".
We dealt with this amendment at some length on Committee Stage. The Bill makes reference to appropriate gender balance and I would urge the Minister to consider specifying that. The standard policy now is to aim for at least a 40% male and a 40% female representation on all boards. It is important to make a statement in this legislation and ensure that those proportions are achieved.
The Deputy will be aware that the Bill already contains a requirement at section 8(6) and section 24(10) that the Minister must have regard to the appropriateness of gender balance in making appointments to either the council or the committees of the council. I will give an assurance that I will do that.
Does the Minister say 40%?
As near as we can come to it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments Nos. 17 and 18 are related, and may be taken together.
I move amendment No. 17:
In page 13, lines 2 and 3, to delete "particular category of recognised school" and substitute "sector, i.e. primary and post-primary,".
The Bill is unclear where it speaks about a particular category of recognised school. Why not say which sector, primary or post-primary? They are the two sectors. It seems vague as it stands.
The steering group recommended that electoral procedures be adopted to include membership of all sectors of the profession, both primary and post-primary. The group further stated that it would be important that the diversity of experience and expertise within the post-primary sector, secondary, voluntary, vocational, community and comprehensive, be reflected in the composition of the council. I am happy to be guided by the steering group on that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 not moved.
Amendment No. 20 is in the name of Deputy Creed.
I move amendment No. 20:
In page 22, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following:
"(c)any person, the subject of a request for a certified or uncertified copy of, or extract from, an entry in the register shall be notified in detail of the request by the Director.”.
On Committee Stage, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, gave an indication that he would consider this amendment for Report Stage to see if the contents were necessary. Perhaps the Minister has a response on that basis.
I sought clarification from a draftsman. The purpose of the register on the one hand is to serve as a clear indicator by the profession to the public, of the membership of the profession, and their qualifications to teach to high and consistent standards. On the other hand, the members of the profession are entitled to some privacy in respect of certain details contained on the register. For example, it may be important for the council to know the date of birth of any given teacher but not necessary for such a fact to be known to the public. My legal advice is that the question is essentially one for the council and is addressed in section 29(6)(a). As the guarantors of the standards of the profession, it is their duty to provide sufficient information to the public to make that guarantee meaningful. At the same time they also have a responsibility to protect the purely personal information on the teacher.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 21 in the names of Deputies Creed and Shortall.
I move amendment No. 21:
In page 22, line 32, to delete "as a teacher" and substitute "in a teaching capacity".
This amendment deals with section 30. Is there an opportunity to speak on section 29?
Not on Report Stage.
This is a related point to one which was made at the very outset about people who are at present employed in a teaching capacity but who may not be per se qualified teachers. I am talking about an amnesty. The point was made repeatedly on Committee Stage that there is a danger that some people may find themselves with the rug pulled from under them, in the most disadvantaged interpretation of the contents, and they could find themselves out of a job. That is the reason for the amendment.
There were various difficulties and I have had discussions with the unions in relation to this. We are making practical arrangements. I appreciate the point that the Deputy is making. I am advised that the terminology as used is the correct one. I will look further at any difficulties which may arise. We have a good working for mula with the unions on that issue and I think it can be worked out satisfactorily.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 22 in the name of Deputy Creed.
I move amendment No. 22:
In page 24, lines 44 and 45, to delete "may apply for renewal of" and substitute "shall be deemed to have renewed".
I have sought legal advice on the amendment. I have been assured that the Bill as currently worded would not preclude the council from deciding to proceed with some form of automatic renewal. I appreciate the intention but I have that assurance.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 23 in the name of Deputy Creed.
I move amendment No. 23:
In page 27, line 23, to delete "or otherwise".
I note the points the Deputy has made but, in my view, this subsection is an important bedrock for the council, ensuring the maintenance of high quality standards in the teaching profession. The nature of the profession in which teachers act in loco parentis and, to an extent, as a form of moral standard for the pupils in their care makes it imperative that, where a teacher substantially and consistently departs from such a standard, the council should be in a position to investigate the matter and take appropriate actions. I outlined the example earlier of teachers being convicted of serious criminal offences such as drugs related offences which would not have a direct relationship to the teaching position.
We are concerned that frivolous reports could be made to the council about professional misconduct. I accept the Minister's explanation.
The Bill provides that the director can rule out frivolous complaints.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 25 is an alternative to No. 24 and they may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I move amendment No. 24:
In page 27, to delete lines 28 to 32.
Section 42(1)(a) lists some of the grounds for initiating a fitness to teach inquiry. These are failure to comply with or contravention of any provision of this Act, the Education Act, 1998, the Education Welfare Act, 2000, the Vocational Education Acts, 1930 to 1999, or any regulations, rules or orders made under those Acts. Some would argue that this section is all-encompassing and could give rise to fears that complaints could be made against teachers for minor infringements. There are sufficient safeguards in section 42(3)(b) to ensure that minor or isolated infringements will not be used to instigate investigations. All applications will be examined by the director of the teaching council. The right to engage in a legitimate trade union dispute is an unspecified right under our Constitution and the Bill will not alter that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 25 not moved.
Amendments Nos. 26 and 27 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I move amendment No. 26:
In page 27, line 36, after "teach" to insert "and is so certified by a reputable and recognised medical authority".
If my memory serves me correctly, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, undertook on Committee Stage to consider the matter of who certifies medical fitness. I am merely seeking to ring fence this provision and ensure certification is carried out by a reputable body.
It will be the teaching council's responsibility to ensure it obtains the best independent medical advice available and I am confident it will do so. It was suggested that a chief medical officer could be appointed but that would bring responsibility back to the Department.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 27 not moved.
I move amendment No. 28:
In page 28, lines 31 to 33, to delete all words from and including "save" in line 31 down to and including "fact," in line 33.
I do not expect this provision to be used other than in a very exceptional circumstance where either the board of management of a school or a vocational education committee would not be in a position to complete the procedures or could not otherwise guarantee the safety or well-being of pupils. The council must be able to intervene in such circumstances.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 30 is an alternative to No. 29 and No. 40 is related. The amendments may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I move amendment No. 29:
In page 30, line 8, after "Where" to insert ", having afforded the registered teacher and his or her representatives an opportunity to make oral or written submissions,".
I have taken legal advice on this matter and have been advised that it will be the council's responsibility to ensure that provision for representation is made in its rules of procedure. It is not desirable to include that level of detail in primary legislation; it would be more properly included in regulations or procedural rules made by the council in regard to fitness to teach hearings.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 30 not moved.
Amendment Nos. 31, 32 and 33 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I move amendment No. 31:
In page 30, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:
"(d)that the registered teacher shall be censured.”.
Having read section 44, I felt the degree of punishment provided for was excessive and that some provision should be made for the issuance of a "yellow card". Amendment No. 31 seeks the censuring of a registered teacher if that is required. Amendment No. 32 would provide that if the council must reconsider a further complaint against a teacher previously censured, one of the other penalties provided for in paragraphs (a), (b) or (c) could be invoked if the council were to find against the teacher. Amendment No. 33 seeks to direct the court to choose from the list of sanctions.
It would be the disciplinary committee's responsibility to judge each case on its merits and to apply appropriate sanctions. Amendment No. 33 is not necessary as the only action the High Court could take in such a case would have to be taken in the context of the existing powers of sanction of the disciplinary committee. Following Committee Stage, I consulted further with my legal advisers on this issue and they assure me that the Bill, as currently worded, provides for the Deputy's objective.
The sanctions listed, such as removal from the register and suspension, could be excessive. The council could find a teacher had committed a misdemeanour but could consider that the listed sanctions would be excessive in the circumstances. It is not unreasonable to seek a provision whereby a teacher could first be censured.
The council can already provide an initial lesser penalty under 44(c)(iv) which states “such other conditions as the Disciplinary Committee thinks fit”.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 not moved.
I move amendment No. 34:
In page 31, line 27, to delete "ex parte".
I stated on Committee Stage that it appears totally wrong that a teacher can be struck off without even being informed of an application made to the High Court. Any application should be notified to the respondent; that is standard practice. On Committee Stage, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, wondered what would happen if a teacher were abroad and could not be contacted. The requirement under the ex parte rule is that a notice must be served on the last known address so the Minister of State's argument does not hold water. The Minister accepts there are concerns about this and, presumably, he will remove the ex parte request.
Debate adjourned.