The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 20, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services, Votes 3, 10, 14, 20, 21, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 38, 41, 42 and 43, back from committee; No. 21, motion re referral to Joint Committee of Draft Planning and Development Regulations, 2001; and No. 7, Social Welfare No. 2 Bill, 2001 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.00 p.m. and the sitting shall be suspended between 6.30 p.m. and 7.00 p.m.; Nos. 20 and 21 shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 20 the Supplementary Estimates for Public Services, Votes 3, 10, 14, 20, 21, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 38, 41, 42 and 43, shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; Private Members' Business shall be No. 117, motion re enlargement of the European Union.
Order of Business.
There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 20 and 21 agreed?
No. 21 deals with the Draft Planning and Development Regulations, 2001, under which the Minister for the Environment and Local Government proposes to introduce, for the first time, a fee for members of the public making a submission to a local authority in relation to a planning matter. This is tantamount to a charge for a democratic right and the Labour Party is opposed to it. Therefore, we do not agree to the taking of this item without debate.
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Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Davern, Noel.Dennehy, John.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia. |
Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.Moffatt, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V. |
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Allen, Bernard.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul. |
Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam. Burke, Ulick. |
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Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic. |
McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan. |
In the middle of June Mr. Justice Flood, the sole member of the Flood tribunal, asked the Government to appoint two new members to the tribunal and an additional member to assist him in his work. The judge asked that this would be done before the summer recess and wrote to the Ceann Comhairle accordingly. The Taoiseach subsequently stated in the House that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government would bring proposals to Cabinet to deal with this matter. However, six months later we are facing another recess and the judges have not been appointed.
Would the Taoiseach agree that failing to comply with Mr. Justice Flood's request is a kind of interference by stealth with the tribunal as alleged in a leading Sunday newspaper? Is the Government reluctant to have the tribunal deal with Mr. Tom Gilmartin's evidence in the immediate future? What plans does the Taoiseach have to ensure the judge is assisted? The tribunal was appointed by the Houses of the Oireachtas, but Mr. Justice Flood stated that he cannot proceed with his work unless he gets two additional judges. What is the up to date position?
The Taoiseach will be aware that this is the fourth occasion on which this matter has been raised in the House by Deputy Noonan or me. On the last occasion on which I raised it, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, undertook to make inquiries. The Attorney General subsequently held a telephone conversation about five weeks ago with Deputy Howlin during which he indicated that, of the 1,200 people in the library and the array of senior, qualified solicitors who would possibly be available, he was of the view that the Government was finding it difficult to locate a suitable person who would be sufficiently qualified and of sufficient good repute to be able to earn a High Court judge's salary to take on this post. Can the Taoiseach confirm this statement? I put it to the Taoiseach that the Government's continued failure to accede to the Mr. Justice Flood's request, which came to the Oireachtas in the first instance, can be construed as an act of non-compliance and non-co-operation with the Flood tribunal.
As I understand it, the request from Mr. Justice Flood, with which the Government intends to comply, was that, at the end of the current module, he would produce an interim report on the tribunal's work to date, but that he would require additional people for the next module. The issue of additional members arises from the next module. There is no delay, interference or disruption to the Flood tribunal in any respect.
Deputy Quinn referred to the second issue. There has been considerable difficulty sourcing individuals who are prepared to give years to this work. However, discussions between Mr. Justice Flood and the Attorney General have continued. I am aware of some of the details of the discussions, but I do not wish to divulge names. The discussions are ongoing, but the Government intends to comply well in advance of when Mr. Justice Flood moves to the next module and to provide the additional members he requires.
Mr. Justice Flood specifically requested that this matter be dealt with before the last summer recess. We are now facing another recess so, as far as the judge is concerned, his request has not been complied with by the Government or by the House.
I put it to the Taoiseach that Deputy Harney confirmed to the House that, under the terms of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, there is no requirement that persons appointed to tribunals are legally qualified. People of other appropriate professions could be appointed. One could envisage circumstances in which, for example, an accountant or quantity surveyor could bring his or her professional skills to the tribunal.
Deputy Noonan might be interested in the post.
Deputy Noonan, without interruption.
That is not the best intervention I have heard in the House. That is weak enough. Does the Taoiseach realise the person to be appointed does not have to be legally qualified? It is not sufficient for the Taoiseach to tell the House that there is a reluctance among judges to accept the appointment. One does not have to appoint a judge. One could appoint a senior counsel, solicitor, accountant or quantity surveyor. Nothing in the Act prevents such an appointment for which there are precedents by way of appointing members to a tribunal or an assessor to sit with the sole member of a tribunal. Can the Taoiseach give the House a better answer and a commitment that the work of the Flood tribunal will not be inhibited by the Government's failure to comply with Mr. Justice Flood's legitimate request of last June?
It is not a question of better answers, but of facts. Last summer Mr. Justice Flood asked for the appointment of two additional judges. He did not ask for bricklayers, carpenters or anyone else, but judges. The matter is being dealt with.
As regards a substitute or alternate, that individual does not have to be a judge or a barrister. My information is that the Attorney General had already told Deputies Quinn and Noonan that a named individual was being considered in that regard. However, it would be unfair to name the individual.
What has happened since?
Yesterday's edition of the Irish Examiner carried a story with the banner headline, “Our Shame”, which highlighted the fact that a 34 year old man who, of necessity, was named by his family and who has spent most of his life in care is in an unbelievable set of circumstances in Cork city. Can the Taoiseach explain how a Government which wrestled for so long with its Estimates and its conscience over a so-called health strategy can preside over a situation in which upwards of 1,000 people are held in conditions which are unacceptable in this day and age? What does the Government intend to do about this?
Is the Taoiseach aware that the inspector of mental hospitals has severely criticised the practice of housing persons with mental handicap in accommodation intended for persons suffering from psychiatric illnesses? Is he also aware that the inspector of mental services said this practice was unfair both to patients suffering from psychiatric illnesses and persons with mental disabilities? What is the Government's programme to ensure that the 600 people with mental handicap who are at present accommodated in psychiatric hospitals are housed more appropriately in specialist units?
The number of people with an intellectual disability currently accommodated in psychiatric hospitals is 503. In recent years a revenue programme has been designed to create more appropriate settings for persons with an intellectual disability or autism, who are accommodated in psychiatric hospitals. The numbers have been reduced from almost 1,000 and the programme is continuing. Some are accommodated in de-designated units, which were formerly designated for psychiatric services, and others moved some years ago from psychiatric hospitals to alternative accommodation which is now unsuitable. So far, we have developed a number of places and there have been developments in terms of the legislative rights of such patients. The programme of moving people into suitable accommodation is continuing. A sum of £205 million has been allocated to it and £51.25 million will be spent next year.
The case I referred to is described in the following way:
Mr. O'Sullivan is 34, he has spent most of his life in the care of the State. Unable to communicate, he tears at his flesh until he bleeds. He now weighs 4.5 stone.
In his reply, the Taoiseach stated that the number was just under 600. Is he aware that while there are just under 600 people in designated care, as described by the Taoiseach, there are, according to a press notice from the National Association for the Mentally Handicapped of Ireland, approximately 400 people in what a bureaucratic Kafka-esque phrase describes as "de-designated units"? We have changed the label of the places in which these people are currently held but they are still there in appalling conditions.
The same press release from the National Association for the Mentally Handicapped in Ireland points out that in its much lauded and totally derided health strategy, the Government proposes to deal with this problem by the year 2007. In the light of what we now know, is the Taoiseach prepared to reconsider that timetable and bring it forward, since he has the resources?
The resources which go through the health boards are substantial. These are extremely difficult cases and both the Minister and the health boards are endeavouring to deal with them.
Whatever about the next designation of the list—
De-designated.
—I have a full list of the centres which have received funding. Not only is there a programme to provide extra places throughout the country but the programme also encompasses capital investment in new and refurbished facilities and aims to enhance staff numbers and the skills mix in order to provide services for the unfortunate people who require these services.
The Deputy will agree that halving the list in a short period of time and being involved in an active capital programme in at least ten different places throughout the country is a step in the right direction. No one is more aware than the Minister of the need to do as much as possible in this area as quickly as possible.
Today the Environmental Protection Agency published a damning report detailing the quality of drinking water throughout the country. The Water Services Bill is to be published in 2002. Can the Taoiseach indicate when this Bill will be published so that we can put structures in place to ensure that safe, potable water is available to all consumers?
The heads of the Water Services Bill, to consolidate and update the water services legislation, have been approved and the Bill is for drafting.
We have, in section A of the list published at the commencement of the session, a total of 16 Bills of which two have been published and one, the Appropriation Bill, will be published tomorrow. Since this is the last week of this session, can the Taoiseach tell the House when the Civil Defence Bill, the Ombudsman (Defence Forces) Bill, the Competition Bill, the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, the Central Bank of Ireland Financial Services Authority (No. 1) Bill, the Oireachtas Commission Bill, the Ombudsman for Children Bill, the Disabilities Bill, the Immigration (Carriers' Liability) Bill, the Arramara Teoranta (Acquisition of Shares) Bill, the Digital Hub Agency Bill, the Railway Safety Bill and the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill will be published?
I draw the Taoiseach's attention to the fact that there are already published on the Order Paper 11 Bills which have not yet been debated. Is he still insisting that the House will rise at the end of this week and not resume until the end of January? What will he do to get the legislative programme back on track?
About nine of the Bills listed will be circulated prior to Christmas. If the Deputy wishes to have an updated note on the others I will get it for him.
If we had a Disabilities Bill giving an individual right to assessment of need, the situation of the young man who does not have the service he needs, which we discussed earlier, would not have arisen—
That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
—neither would Vantastic have to protest today outside the gates of Leinster House because of the lack of accessible transport services for people with disabilities.
Will the Disabilities Bill be published by Friday, as promised several times by the Taoiseach in recent weeks?
On the same issue, my party leader has highlighted the conditions under which one individual who has been written about in the newspapers—
We cannot have a statement. The Deputy may ask a question on the Bill itself.
—is living, and hundreds of others like him. The health boards could move such people to more appropriate accommodation if they were given the resources to do so.
Deputy O'Sullivan, you are out of order.
We were promised a Disabilities Bill by the end of the term. The Taoiseach needs to give a clear answer.
It is hoped to clear the Disabilities Bill at Government next Tuesday. We have also cleared the general scheme of the Education (Children with Disabilities) Bill, which I have also entered in relation to this.
After the Dáil term.
It is appropriate, before we proceed with the business, that Members convey their condolences to the family of detective sergeant Seán Eiffe, who lost his life on Friday.
It would be better to take that matter at the end of the Order of Business.
I have no difficulty with that, sir. I am merely anxious that the matter be addressed.
Mr. Coveney
The Taoiseach is aware that parents of children with disabilities have been waiting for the Government's legislative response to their needs. Can the Taoiseach confirm that we will see the Education (Children with Disabilities) Bill, before Christmas?
The scheme has been cleared and the Bill will be drafted as soon as possible.
Now that the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government Whip are all present, can I ask about the tabled motion on the draft framework decision on combating terrorism and the decision on the European arrest warrant, both of which are due to be debated tomorrow. The texts of both had just been communicated to my office before I left and I have not seen either of them. Fifty pages are being sent through my fax machine and I understand the same is happening to the Fine Gael spokesman.
So that we can be orderly on scheduled business tomorrow, without a row, I ask the Taoiseach whether it is necessary to take these matters tomorrow? The Justice Council has not formalised agreement on the second matter. Would it not be more appropriate to give us a little more time to read and reflect upon them and to get advice about them, since it is unlikely that they can be taken on a community basis until at least after the full council meeting this weekend or perhaps a new Justice Council meeting in the new year?
That might be a matter for the Whips.
On the same issue, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform last week indicated to the spokespersons that this matter would be taken tomorrow, in the context of agreement being reached at the conference last week, but agreement has not been reached. We do not know to what extent changes may be made in the comprehensive documentation that has just been faxed to our offices. Will the Taoiseach say whether it is appropriate, in the circumstances, to take this tomorrow? It is important, in changing European laws relating to arrest warrants and terrorism, that this House is given reasonable time to consider the complicated legal changes being proposed. It is not appropriate to rush into the debate tomorrow because most Members will not have received any documentation at all and the spokespeople of the main Opposition parties will probably only have an opportunity to look at the documentation late tonight.
The Deputies know the position regarding this matter. I have spoken to Prime Minister Mr. Guy Verhofstadt, and it is still intended that it will go through this weekend, which means that we must clear it here.
The text might be changed.
I do not think that is likely. They are endeavouring to get Prime Minister Mr. Berlusconi to agree to it.
They should extradite him.
I understand the Deputies' points. The terms of the motions are short enough but there is a great deal of detail. I appreciate that we are asking the Opposition to co-operate on these matters but it is necessary to clear it tomorrow so that we can take them at the weekend.
The Committee on Justice Equality, Defence and Women's Rights is due to meet immediately after private notice questions to consider a Bill followed by another resolution. It will be late this evening before we even have sight of the texts in question and we will not be able to obtain advice. It is not a good way of doing things – other Parliaments have drafts in advance.
We cannot have a debate on that here.
We can arrange for the Deputies to get detailed briefings as early as possible.
Arising from the Jamie Sinnott judgment, the Minister for Education and Science promised a number of initiatives, one of which was the publication of the task force report on autism. He confirmed in the Dáil that this report was in his Department early this month and that it was only a matter of photocopying it before publication. Can I take it this report will be sneaked out the weekend before Christmas so that there cannot be any critical debate on the provisions therein? Can the Taoiseach indicate when the report will be published?
On promised legislation, does the Government intend, as a package of measures to bolster provision for children with a disability, to introduce a constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to an education of children with a disability?
I have already answered the question about the Disabilities Bill and about the Education (Children with Disabilities) Bill. This technology friendly Government has published the autism report on the website while it is being printed.
What about the constitutional amendment?
Is it the Taoiseach's intention, in the lifetime of this Government, to enact the whistleblowers Bill? Does he appreciate that if it were enacted, the Minister for Finance would not have been free to perpetrate the greatest fiddle in the public finances since Gene Fitzgerald and the other Charlie?
The first part of the question is in order.
When will the Bill be published?
A letter is being drafted.
Will the Taoiseach tell me about the Campus Stadium Ireland report board?
I understand that a waiting committee is working on it.
On a similar matter, the Taoiseach's party gave a commitment in its 1997 manifesto that it would establish a board to supervise the financing and operation of the social insurance fund. It also claimed in that commitment that there would be no interference—
Has the Deputy a question on legislation? We cannot have Second Stage speeches.
Thank you for your help. The Social Welfare Bill, 2002, has been promised, although we have not seen it yet. Will this commitment be honoured in respect of not interfering with the fund? Will the commitment to establish a board be part of that legislation?
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
It is promised legislation.
The content of legislation does not arise on the Order of Business.
I am asking a question. When will the Taoiseach publish the Social Welfare Bill, 2002?
Deputy Hayes, we are moving on to the next business. Could you allow your colleague, Deputy Currie, to ask his question, which I hope is appropriate to the Order of Business.
When will he publish the Bill? There is no recourse to any of the people here – they know they have been caught out on this issue.
Deputy Hayes, I ask you to resume your seat.
Commitments were given in the Fianna Fáil manifesto in 1997 and are not being honoured. Where is the board? The Fianna Fáil Members know they are wrong.
Deputy Hayes, do you wish to leave the House?
No, I wish to speak later tonight so I will sit down.
I advise you to do that.
We have been promised the Ombudsman for Children Bill this session.
The first man who asked for less and got more.
Could the Minister allow Deputy Currie to ask a question appropriate to the Order of Business?
He would make a poor poker player.
Like yourself, sir, I am against violence so I cannot do what I would like to do on occasion. We have been promised the Bill this session. Will we therefore see it this week or will we have to wait until after the fifth anniversary of the initiation of this Bill in the Department of Health and Children, which will occur next week?
The Bill is almost ready. The aim was for it to be ready before the end of this week but it should be out very shortly.
That is the fiftieth time I have heard that.
In respect of the Building Control Bill which proposes to strengthen the Building Control Act, 1990, does the Taoiseach accept that the charge of 25 per written representation for every member of the public—
This does not arise on the Order of Business. It has already been raised in the House.
It does in relation to this Bill. When is it proposed to bring forward the Building Control Bill that has been promised? Will that take into account the 25 charge for representations from public representatives and members of the public? This is coming in from 1 January and is another scandal.
Deputy Ryan, you are totally out of order. Please resume your seat.
The heads of the Bill were approved by the Government on 6 December and the Bill is being drafted.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you might need to assist me as I am not sure I will be properly in order. The schedule to the Order of Business has due to the pressure been revised a couple of times. I understand that the Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill will now continue on Second Stage for one hour tomorrow morning. Is a special resolution required to enact some of the provisions of that Bill and will we receive an additional resolution associated with that Bill in order to facilitate the legalisation of the illegal raid on the fund? I am just trying to assist the Taoiseach so that I know which it is.
If there is to be an order we need to see it.
If there is to be an order to regularise what is a highly irregular process, when will we see that documentation so that we can study it?
Under Standing Orders I understand it is a financial resolution but it does not arise at this point.
When will we see it? It is normal for the Opposition—
When will it be taken?
It is to be debated in a few moments. I do not believe there are any separate orders.
We were told there is.
In view of some public doubt cast over matters at the weekend by one of the legs of the three-legged stool that is the present Government, according to Deputy Séamus Brennan, does the Taoiseach still intend to proceed with the abortion referendum after Christmas?
Yes.
There is enthusiasm for you.
The Taoiseach appeared to give two different answers in respect of the Disabilities Bill. One answer said the Bill would be approved and published next week and the other was that a scheme of the Bill had been approved.
They were two different Bills.
In that case I will ask the Taoiseach about another Bill, the much promised Dublin transport institutions Bill which was to be published last July. Why has this gone on the back-burner, because with it has gone any serious change—
On the Bill itself Deputy.
—in the management of the transport system in Dublin and not surprisingly the Government is getting flak for the failure of "Operation Freeflow"?
Deputy, you cannot make a statement.
The heads of the Greater Dublin Area Land Use and Transport Authority Bill are expected shortly. I congratulate the Garda on the job they are doing with "Operation Freeflow". The flow of traffic is far better than it has been all year.
Not around our end of the city, as the Taoiseach knows.
I asked the Taoiseach about the Newtownforbes school last week and I hope to get an answer from him today. Will he have a word with the Minister for Education and Science? This is the season of goodwill. At least give me an answer.
Deputy Belton, the Order of Business has concluded.
I want an answer. This has been going on for the last year. The Minister for Education and Science has let down the parents of Newtownforbes school. Please give an answer.