The Order of Business today is No. 22a, motion re Membership of Committees; No. 23, motion re proposed approval of the terms of certain Acts of the 1994 Congress of Universal Postal Union – back from Committee; and No. 4, Finance Bill, 2002 – Second Stage (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted not later than 6.30 p.m. Nos. 22a and 23 shall be decided without debate and the resumed Second Stage of No. 4 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 6.30 p.m., and any division demanded thereon shall be postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 19 February 2002.
Order of Business.
There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the first proposal on the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. The second proposal is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 22a and 23 without debate. Is that agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 4 – the conclusion of Second Stage of the Finance Bill, 2002 agreed to?
It is not agreed to.
This is not agreed from a number of perspectives. First, as was indicated yesterday by the leader of the Labour Party, to truncate and guillotine yet another important debate is unprecedented. Many Deputies wish to contribute to the Finance Bill, particularly in light of new inclusions in the Bill which did not form part of the Budget Statement. To end the debate today would be a travesty, particularly in view of the fact that for the month of March it is indicated we will sit for merely seven days. We are indicating we would be happy to sit extra days in March to allow for a full debate on the Finance Bill so that all Members who wish to participate can do so. Why at the conclusion of the debate, if the Government has its way, is the vote deferred on a matter as important as the Finance Bill? If the Government wants to bring it to a conclusion then let it be decided in the House at whatever time it indicates. It wants it two ways. It wants to allow its Deputies to canvass—
We have been doing that for the past two years.
—and it wants this House made irrelevant for the month of March, which is a disgraceful way to treat the House. Either the Government wants to run the business of the House in a normal and orderly fashion or, if it does not wish to do so, it should call an election now.
My party does not agree to the proposal. The Finance Bill is being rushed through at a time when people on just under €6,000 per annum, or just over £101 a week, living alone, do not have medical cards and people who received a small increase in social welfare benefits have been deprived of medical cards, including all the implications of that. The death rate for people over 55 is 11 per 1,000 among the wealthier classes who have been given medical cards and 30 per 1,000 among poorer people who have been deprived of them.
The details of the Bill cannot be discussed. Deputy Sargent.
Given the scandal of the medical card scheme we cannot agree to this proposal.
The Green Party opposes No. 4. I understand there is a legal requirement for the Finance Bill to be passed but we are nowhere near that at this point. Therefore, there is no obvious reason for guillotining the Bill tonight. In the meantime, only two of the Opposition parties have had an opportunity to voice their views on the Finance Bill and make alternative proposals. My party, including other parties and Independents, have equally valid viewpoints and mandates to express those viewpoints. We have not as yet been given the facility to do so. In the interests of fairness, I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, to ensure this time is provided and to allow the Government to indicate if it will give time to my party and others in the House who have not yet had an opportunity to speak.
Deputy Ó Caoláin is offering but I cannot allow him under Standing Order 26(2). It is only party representatives who can speak at this stage.
What about Deputy Mitchell?
I am sorry but the Deputy is precluded from speaking under the Standing Order and he cannot speak at this stage.
I wish to register my opposition.
It is the Standing Order. The Minister to reply.
The Deputy is out of order.
Is it not the code of conduct to bring distinguished visitors to the House to the Distinguished Visitors' Gallery?
Order, please. I call the Minister.
The Government decided to extend today's sitting which will mean the amount of time devoted to Second Stage of the Finance Bill will be exceeded by more than two hours, the average amount of time which has been spent on Second Stage of Finance Bills for years. The Government accepts there is ample time given to discuss the matter.
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Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy. |
Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wright, G. V. |
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Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Carey, Donal.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Michael.Howlin, Brendan.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek. |
McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack. |
Before we take leaders' questions, in view of the gross disorder during leaders' questions yesterday morning, I must again emphasise the fact that under Standing Order 26 leaders' questions and supplementary questions are strictly confined to the leaders of Fine Gael and the Labour Party and replies are confined to the Taoiseach. No other Member from either side may intervene or raise a point of order. Interruptions and refusals to recognise the Chair are not in order and interruptions should not be replied to. Yesterday's interruptions gave rise to events which did no credit to the House. Members from all sides are obliged to observe the rules of the House.
The time allowed for leaders' questions is a relatively new facility introduced just less than one year ago. However, it has been found to be a very important one in our parliamentary procedure. It is, therefore, essential that it be conducted strictly in accordance with the relevant Standing Order to which I appeal to Members to strictly adhere.
Does your office think we should meet in a convent in future?
I did not hear the Deputy's interruption. I have appealed for no interruptions.
On the basis that Deputy Roche is not here this morning, will you be conveying that appeal in writing to his office?
Let us not commence today's proceedings in the same manner as yesterday's.
This morning I want to raise a very serious issue, the alleged falsification of crime detection figures in a Garda division. I understand the division in question is the one in the south east. In looking at the Garda Síochána annual report I notice that detection rates in Waterford city are 68% and in the area of the south eastern division outside of Waterford city, 58%. The figure of 68% is 14% higher than the detection rate in any other city area. The allegations that have been substantiated undermine the credibility of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, who proclaimed a zero tolerance policy. He has made claims here of a successful fight against crime, but I put it to the Minister taking the Order of Business this morning that the reality is quite different.
In particular, violence on the streets is rampant. In the year 2000 some 10,400 assaults were recorded. Almost one in four crimes is going unreported. The number of rape offences has risen to six per week while wanton random attacks, particularly on young people on the streets of our towns every night of the week, are destroying the quality of life of many young people. Does the Minister have any explanation from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform about the falsification of Garda crime figures? I put it to him that the regime of the Minister in charge of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been the most sorry disaster that has ever occurred in public administration. The credibility of the Garda Síochána is being constantly undermined and it will take a strong effort to restore it.
After 13 months the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform finally got around to publishing the 2000 crime figures last month. Almost immediately it emerged those figures were manipulated with some crimes having been recategorised, the net effect of the change being that what was a real increase in serious crime has been presented as a decrease. That fact was known to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he debated these matters with me on national radio.
The allegations in the national newspapers today on foot of information that was sent to them and to me are startling. In one Garda division the reportage on the new PULSE system, on which large sums of money were spent to ensure reliance on accurate figures, is alleged to have been falsified. The Government, and in particular its Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, have made their reputation on those crime figures. Is their reputation now not in tatters? Is the reputation of the Government not a complete sham?
The Garda Commissioner, who was informed yesterday by The Star of certain information relating to the treatment of crime statistics for 2001 in Waterford city Garda district, has appointed a chief superintendent from outside the region this morning to review all aspects of the specific information and all crime reported and detected for 2001 for this district. Given the importance of the figures contained in the commissioner's annual report on crime, the report of the chief superintendent will be made public. The commissioner is gravely concerned that any doubt should be cast on the accuracy of any information which forms part of his annual report on crime.
I take it that the crime statistics to which Deputy Noonan referred are for 2000. This matter refers to 2001 for which statistics are not yet available.
The Minister is hiding them.
I appeal for Order. Deputy Howlin is out of order.
I have not interrupted any speaker and at the very least I should be given the opportunity to reply.
The Minister might not have interrupted but that does not mean we will not.
Deputy Stagg is out of order.
This is Parliament and the Government is accountable.
We have significantly increased Garda numbers and resources. The Garda Vote has been increased by 50% from €480 million to €918 million. We have increased Garda numbers by 1,000.
What has that got to do with the crime figures?
Twenty new Garda stations have been refurbished—
The Minister should deal with the issue.
—and more than 1,200 additional prison spaces have been provided in prison buildings.
What about the crime figures? The same script was used for dealing with the McBrearty case.
Deputy Howlin is out of order.
The Minister should answer the question.
Why is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform not in the House?
The Deputies do not want to hear what I have to say.
The Minister is only repeating the same old rubbish.
These improvements in terms of increased Garda numbers, additional prison spaces and the introduction of 42 or 43 new Bills demonstrate the success of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
Bring in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is in hiding. The facts are clear. I sympathise with the Minister for Defence who has been given the job of defending the indefensible and relying on statements on an issue, the detail of which we do not expect him to be familiar with. The facts are that only one crime in four is reported. In the most recently published statistics the figures were massaged by recategorising certain crimes to make an increase in crime overall look like a reduction in crime.
Another fact is that in at least one Garda division detection rates are being falsified. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not in the House. The Minister for Defence said that matters have been improving. After Abbeylara, the McBrearty affair which was handled very badly by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and now this incident, it is time the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform came into the House and gave us an explanation of what is going on.
A Deputy
And then resign.
I am not calling for his resignation. We are entitled to hear his explanation, but it had better be a good one. He should do it before the Dáil adjourns this afternoon. I cannot understand why he is not here this morning. It has always been the practice that if there is a major incident in one's Department that at least the Minister responsible turns up at the Order of Business and makes himself or herself accountable to the House. It is not fair to the Minister for Defence, Deputy Smith, to have to answer these questions this morning. This is a crisis about the credibility of the crime statistics which are fundamental to criminal justice policy. It is not possible to frame policy on inaccurate figures. These figures are now so inaccurate as to be meaningless.
I put it to the Minister for Defence – I presume he has it in his brief – that under the new PULSE system the 2001 figures are now available to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We on this side of the House know that the reported incidence of assault has gone up dramatically. We also know that many assaults are not reported. We call on the Minister to stop hiding the statistics before the election. He should put into the public domain what he has got. He has readily available, through the PULSE system, the statistics for 2001 and they should be published immediately. More than anything else, I ask the Minister in charge this morning to ensure the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform comes into the House this afternoon, makes a full statement, answers the questions of the Opposition and makes himself accountable.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has never been afraid to come into this House. He is on EU business in Spain today and obviously cannot be here. We are talking about one Garda district where an allegation has been made. It is unfair to the Garda authorities in general that the Opposition parties have decided already before an investigation has been completed to blacken the name of Garda divisions throughout the length and breadth of Ireland.
The Minister is scaremongering again, like his colleagues yesterday.
We depend on the credibility and integrity of the Garda authorities to carry out a difficult job throughout the length and breadth of the country.
Garda competence and credibility is being undermined across the country.
At least we should be prepared to wait until an allegation is properly investigated to assess the validity or otherwise of it.
This matter is important enough for me to continue with and I intend to. The latest response from the Member representing the Government is nothing short of disgraceful. We have a repeat of what we had yesterday. We are seeking the truth, but what we get is scaremongering and charges from the other side of the House.
The reality was put on record by the Fine Gael leader. Only one in four crimes is reported. That is a provable fact under the household surveys. The figures produced, which are 13 months late—
They are not falsified.
—were massaged and manipulated. That was done on a national radio station by the Minister responsible who refused to accept there was a recategorisation of some crimes to show a net decrease in crime when in fact there was an increase. That is on record. We now have a serious allegation – that is all I am saying – about the falsification of crime statistics in one division. I have the documentation that was sent to me in the same way, I understand, as it was sent to several newspapers. What purports to be genuine Garda information is there. I will await the outcome of an investigation, but I expect some action from the Government.
The Deputy is getting it.
I expect some response from Government and not the platitudes we have got repeatedly on matters relating to the Garda Síochána. How dare the Minister for Defence slur the reputation of Members of this House because we do our constitutional duty to hold him and his Government to account?
We must await due process.
Is it not true that for three years the Government refused to investigate allegations of Garda corruption in Donegal? Two months ago it voted down a motion from this side of the House and belatedly it has realised there was an unanswerable case for such an investigation. Is it not true that the only reason these matters will be investigated now is that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform knows he has a matter of months left in that office and when his successor walks in the Minister's reputation will be shredded entirely if he does not do something in his dying hours?
I regret the Minister for Defence saw fit to lay charges against the Opposition which is doing its job, unlike the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Minister stated the Garda Commissioner has appointed Assistant Commissioner O'Toole to investigate these allegations. Will the investigation be into the statistics and practices in the Waterford district or into the practices and procedures in the south eastern division or will it be a nationwide investigation of the accuracy of Garda crime statistics?
First, I reject the charge that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform massaged or manipulated statistics with regard to crime. Nobody has worked harder, introduced more Bills or provided more funds to try to deal with this difficult issue. Regardless of who is in power, they will find that area a difficult one in which to produce the type of results the public wants.
He used to make charges against Deputy Nora Owen every day of the week.
I am not aware that the investigation extends beyond the specific allegation by the chief superintendent.
What does that mean? Is it Waterford?
Yes, Waterford district. I am not aware that it extends beyond that. The information I have indicates that it is specifically to deal with it, but I will have the matter checked for the Deputy.
It should be broadened.
In the light of all we know now, will the Minister, on behalf of the Government, accept that there is now an unanswerable case to establish a Garda ombudsman and a new Garda authority as proposed by the Labour Party two years ago in order that these matters can be investigated by an independent force, as happens in Northern Ireland, to ensure the great bulk of members of An Garda Síochána who are honourable, decent, hard working defenders of the State are vindicated or not, as the case may be?
The Government has given consideration to this matter and I understand an announcement will be made at a later stage.
That concludes leaders' questions. I will now take relevant questions on the Order of Business.
I welcome the publication of the Bill to establish an ombudsman for children, five years and two months after the former Minister of State, Deputy Currie, initiated such a Bill. Will it be passed in the lifetime of the Government?
In this session.
I do not know if the Chair has seen the advertisement for the lotto in which the monk wins the million pounds and is bounding around the monastery. I feel a bit like that—
I am waiting to hear the Deputy's question.
The Deputy has found religion.
I feel a bit like that. It seems that the Chair and his office would like to turn this chamber into a monastery. It appears that any spontaneity left in it cannot be displayed under the Chair's stewardship.
The Chair must apply the Standing Orders which the Members lay down. The Chair has no other option.
If there are any more precedents like the one you read out yesterday, there will be no point coming to the chamber. You have visited more parliaments—
This is not in order on the Order of Business.
You have visited more parliaments than most of us.
The Deputy should resume his seat.
This must be the most orderly parliament you have ever seen.
If the Deputy has a question on the Order of Business, he should put it. I appealed to Deputies this morning not to create a situation where there is a repeat of yesterday's performance.
This is the most orderly parliament I have ever visited and, as a Member, greatly reject and resent—
The Deputy is out of order.
—the attempt being made to confine the Opposition.
The Deputy defies the rulings of the Chair and the rules of the House. The Deputy should resume his seat.
I want to raise a matter on the Order of Business.
The Deputy is out of order and must resume his seat.
I want to raise a matter with you.
I have ruled the Deputy out of order. He must resume his seat. I will call him again.
I want to raise a matter with you.
The Deputy has put himself out of order and must resume his seat before he is called again.
That is nonsense.
The Deputy must respect the Chair's ruling.
Who interprets Standing Orders?
I have ruled the Deputy out of order and he must resume his seat.
That is a load of nonsense. Who evaluates Standing Orders?
The Chair is here to apply the rules.
We make them.
If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will ask him to leave the House.
Are we not entitled to make submissions?
The Deputy must resume his seat.
We might as well stay out of this place.
Deputy Rabbitte may put his question now.
Is it the intention to enact the Competition Bill in the present session?
It is hoped to do so.
There is no chance unless the Government continues until after June.
(Mayo): How fortuitous that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform happens to be absent again when something topical arises. The Garda Complaints Board has proven to be largely ineffective at dealing with complaints against the Garda where people's constitutional rights have been transgressed. Six months ago the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform promised to introduce legislation to establish a new Garda inspectorate. It is now February 2002. Will we see the Bill this session? Will it be enacted or will it be another empty promise?
It is being worked on in the Department, but unlikely to be completed before the general election.
There is no sign of it.
The Minister announced the deregulation of pharmacies last week. Will the pharmacy Bill come before the Dáil before the changes are made? When will it come before the House?
It is in the also ran list as well.
There is no prescription for it yet.
The position is more or less the same as with the other Bill. It is being worked on and should be available some time this year. Again, however, that is unlikely to be before the general election.
The Defence Forces (Ombudsman) Bill is reasonably good legislation and has long been promised. When does the Minister envisage Second Stage being taken and does he envisage the Bill being passed before the general election? Second, will he recommend to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that he read the Defence Forces (Ombudsman) Bill with a view to drafting a Garda Síochána ombudsman Bill?
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is well able to look after his own business.
Not really.
We expect to have the Defence Forces (Ombudsman) Bill passed by both Houses prior to the general election.
It will be guillotined in this session.
In July 2000, a press release from the then Minister of State with responsibility for the Irish language, Deputy Ó Cuív, suggested that permission had been granted by Government to finalise the Bill dealing with the rights of people to use the Irish language, Bille na Gaeilge. His successor and I will be at Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge tomorrow night. Will the Bill ever be enacted?
There is another small point on which I want your advice, a Cheann Chomhairle. Last week I submitted a question to the Taoiseach which dealt with correspondence to him from the president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. I understand a similar letter was sent to Ministers. How could the Taoiseach's correspondence be referred—
We cannot discuss this matter on the Order of Business. The Deputy should take up the matter with my office.
Yes.
He will receive full co-operation.
Does the Ceann Comhairle distribute his letters too? If everyone passed them around, no one would ever answer a letter. The president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, being an eminent, scholarly man, thought that the letter to the Taoiseach was for the Taoiseach to be answered by him, and the letter to the Minister for Health and Children was for the Minister. Many would say that is a reasonable construction.
We will not sort out this matter on the Order of Business.
The Deputy covered a lot of ground with his question. As far as the Bill in question is concerned, heads were passed in the middle of last year and it is an absolute priority for the Government.
An absolute priority.
We expect, if at all possible, to have it passed early this year.
The Minister is promising steps that will astonish us.
Road traffic works and street excavations in Dublin have been suspended for the royal visit. Must the citizens of Dublin wait for another royal visit to get peace on the streets, or will the Government introduce the badly needed utilities legislation?
That is not in order on the Order of Business.
If the prince were to stay here permanently, there would be no road works.