The next speaker is Deputy Halligan, whom I understand is sharing time with Deputy Pringle. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Taxi Regulation Bill 2012 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed)
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
In essence, I welcome the Bill. In 2003, the taxi sector was deregulated. In terms of how this was done, it was an abject and total failure. I accept that at the time there were too few taxis in some areas, particularly Dublin. However, this was not relevant to other parts of the country, particularly rural areas. Under the new system anybody who wanted to could apply for a taxi licence. Most of those who applied for a licence were unemployed. The introduction of deregulation led to conflict between local authorities. For example, there were so many taxis in Waterford and in other areas the number of ranks available was insufficient.
This and a lack of sufficient parking for taxis gave rise to conflict between taxi drivers and the Garda and local authorities.
Deregulation was a grave error and was introduced for two reasons. The reason cited by the Government at the time was to address a shortage of taxis in some areas. I suspect, however, that another reason was to reduce the number of people drawing unemployment benefit by encouraging people to acquire a taxi licence. Deregulation has resulted in a large number of taxi drivers being unable to earn a regular or decent income. This had a twofold impact. First, a taxi driver who decides to leave the taxi industry because the job is not working out will find it extremely difficult to obtain social welfare benefits because taxi drivers are self-employed. This is unfair. Second, it led to people on unemployment benefit entering the taxi industry to bolster their income. Given that they were acting illegally to some degree, this created conflict. The result has been that we have too many taxis on the roads and many taxi drivers are unable to make a decent living. This issue should have been addressed because it has done considerable damage to the perception of the taxi industry.
I stand open to correction but I understand it is possible to purchase a taxi licence through the DoneDeal.ie website. While I understand this issue is being addressed in the Bill, it is beyond me that this position was allowed to continue for so long. I accept, however, that the problem precedes the election of the current Government. Taxi drivers generally support my view that all licensing should be processed through the Taxi Regulator.
Deputy Pringle and I have spoken to representatives of taxi drivers. They would like a retirement age to apply to taxi drivers, as is the case in other industries, and an arrangement to be made so that in cases where drivers are unable to work due to a long-term illness, their taxi plate would be returned to the regulator. No such legislative provision is in place. I have met taxi drivers who have been unable to work due to long-term illness but still have their taxi licences. Perhaps their licences should be automatically returned to the regulator. I believe the Irish Taxi Drivers Federation would accept such a measure.
I return to the decision to deregulate the taxi industry. The large increase in the numbers of taxi drivers has meant that taxi ranks have become a dreadful problem nationwide. In Waterford, Kilkenny and similar towns, taxis are found all over the place. One cannot blame the drivers for the problem and we need to discuss with the relevant planning authorities what they propose to do to address it. If some form of stay is not imposed on the issuing of new licences and people continue to be granted licences provided they meet certain conditions, the problem will quadruple in the coming years. An accurate assessment must be made of the number of people who hold taxi licences versus demand for taxis in various areas. For example, should the same ratio of taxi drivers to population apply in Dublin as in relatively small towns, such as Kilmac, County Waterford. Such an assessment would prevent much of the conflict that is taking place in the taxi industry. Before travelling to Dublin earlier this week, I spoke to gardaí in Waterford who deal with taxis. They informed me that while they do not want conflict with taxi drivers, there are constant problems because many drivers park illegally as they try to get as close as possible to full ranks.
While I not have a problem with the Bill in general, given the volatility associated with the taxi industry and problems with how the system operates, it will be necessary to maintain ongoing contact with the Irish Taxi Drivers Federation.
Taxi drivers agree with me on the need to ensure passengers are automatically provided with receipts and that receipts are monitored. I take a taxi occasionally and I am only sometimes given a receipt. In most other countries in Europe receipts are provided automatically. A system must be put in place that ensures punters believe they are getting a fair deal. While taxi passengers generally do get a fair deal, people purchasing goods or services in shops are entitled to a receipt. It should also be mandatory to provide a receipt in the taxi industry, although I am not certain how any such requirement would be monitored. The issuing of receipts would prevent disputes between taxi drivers and their customers. How often has one heard someone say he or she was ripped off or overcharged by a taxi driver? Many of them will not have been ripped off because much depends on traffic and so forth. I ask the Minister of State to consider this proposal, which taxi drivers support. It would be a step forward for punters if they knew they would be charged a reasonable amount for their journey and would be given a receipt that is monitored to prevent overcharging.
The Minister of State will be aware of the volatility of the taxi industry which had given rise to taxi disputes all over the country. We need to keep in contact with the various representative organisations, of which I understand there are two, although there may be several unofficial organisations. They are making an effort to unionise the industry and ensure it offers a decent service to customers. They know it is in their long-term benefit to achieve these objectives but they need assistance. Taxi drivers need to be treated as other workers in industry are treated. They require reasonable rates of pay and must be able to retire. Many of them are earning wages that are far below the minimum wage but cannot sign on for social welfare benefits because they are self-employed.
I understand there are 25,000 taxi drivers. This is a significant number of people who are generating money for the economy, providing a service and paying tax and PRSI. If any other industry was employing 25,000 people, we would ensure it was regulated and monitored and those employed in it paid tax and PRSI and were paid a reasonable rate for the service they provide. This is all taxi drivers are asking. If we do this, the Exchequer, tourists and taxi users will benefit.
I welcome the opportunity to speak to the Bill, which repeals and replaces the 2003 Act. Under the legislation, people with certain convictions will be precluded from obtaining a public service vehicle licence. The Bill also introduces a demerit or penalty points system and transfers the licensing authority from the Garda Carriage Office to the National Transport Authority. It also makes provision for service agreements for the enforcement of the regulations.
Before I discuss the provisions in the legislation, I wish to mention a recent proposal from the Minister of State for a rural hackney service. From the limited media reports I have seen I understand it is to be introduced by December and will be administered through the rural transport companies. I believe there will be restrictions on the areas in which the hackneys can operate. Today I searched for some time on the Department's website and the NTA's website and I could find no details of it - I could not even find details of an announcement of it.
It was in the review.
There is a two-line paragraph in the review and perhaps this is where this has all come from. I have serious concerns because many hackney drivers operate in the rural part of County Donegal where I live. Even though Killybegs has a population of 1,200 or 1,300 about eight or nine hackneys operate there every weekend. I can see the thought behind introducing this system through the rural transport companies, but existing hackney licence holders should be allowed to apply or tender and then it should be administered through the transport companies. This will introduce a third layer of taxis. We have the taxi-plate holders, the hackneys and now these new rural hackneys. There will be major problems with the policing and regulation of it. A person getting this new hackney licence might be restricted to operating within a five-mile radius of a small village in County Donegal. However, nothing will prevent him or her from going to operate in the nearest town. We know there will be no regulation because there are only nine enforcement officers.
That will change.
Nineteen would represent a big improvement. However, for a country of this size there is no way it will be possible to enforce regulation in that industry. Existing hackney licence holders should be able to tender with the rural transport companies. The payments can then be arranged with the rural transport companies. Hackney licence holders in rural areas are struggling and barely making a living as things stand.
The difficulty in making a living leads me to a matter not addressed by the legislation, which is the oversupply of taxis in the country. While it is difficult to make estimations, the Indecon report estimated that the oversupply could be as high as 22%. Based on what I see in Dublin I believe that is an underestimation of the oversupply. We all remember the complaints in 2001 and 2002 about the lack of taxis in Dublin. Then we had deregulation and the supply exploded. It is an example of market failure at the other end where the market has failed due to oversupply and has not been able to rectify itself. It would be an interesting study for some economist to figure out how to adjust for market failure in the other direction. We always talk about market failure being a lack of supply but we now have a complete oversupply. While it is not covered in the Bill, it needs to be addressed.
I know that the whole country is now effectively a taxi-meter area and taxis from rural areas can come in and operate in Dublin at the weekends etc. They will go where the business is and try to make a living. That further highlights the difficulty taxi drivers have in making a living as things stand at the moment. We cannot rely on the recession to deal with it because when the recession is over and things improve again, the supply will explode again. I do not know how it can be addressed but it needs to be considered on a longer-term basis.
I agree with the Bill's provisions to exclude people from getting PSV licences based on past convictions. I cannot understand why the provisions in the 2003 Act were never implemented because potentially a sex abuser or rapist could be plying his trade as a taxi driver, which makes no sense. I take it that will be implemented rapidly on the passing of the legislation. I have one note of caution. Existing taxi drivers who lose their licences under this provision can opt to go to the courts to have the licence reinstated if they show their good character in the intervening period since their convictions. However, it should be possible to have a system that is not as costly as going to the courts to have that right vindicated. Particularly in the transition period where existing taxi drivers lose their licences we should provide that a judge, a barrister or someone else could hold a review and make the decision on that basis rather than requiring that they go through the courts to have the right vindicated.
I agree with the assertions of the Sinn Féin Deputies about the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement and the former combatants who would be excluded under this Bill. There may be an obligation on the State to make some provision for that. That should be addressed.
Moving the licensing to the NTA and away from the Garda and the Carriage Office streamlines the process. However, the Bills digest for the legislation referred to concern that has been expressed relating to the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill that is on Committee Stage in the Dáil. It specifically states that its provisions do not apply to applications for licences under section 34 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2003. Owing to timing constraints it might not be possible to address that in this Bill, but it should be addressed and people with spent convictions should not have to disclose them when applying for taxi licences.
I agree with the introduction of a demerit system. I have already mentioned the lack of enforcement officers, which is a problem we have throughout Irish society. We are great at making the laws but terrible at enforcing them and we do not commit to the enforcement. I know the Bill provides that the NTA can enter service agreements for the enforcements. I have concerns about that. The outsourcing of enforcement is a retrograde step and we should have a system that is financed through the licence fees with our own enforcement officers. We should not outsource more enforcement. We have outsourced speed cameras and we will probably privatise and outsource the Garda at some stage in the future, which is not the way to go. That is a philosophical point of view I have.
I agree.
I agree with the basic tenets of the Bill. I ask the Minister of State to review the provisions of the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill and to have a different system for licence holders who are excluded for previous convictions. Apart from that, I believe the Bill should be acceptable.
I thank the Deputies for their very comprehensive contributions across a range of issues.
In response to a query from Deputy Pringle, the whole of Ireland is a taxi-meter area, but an individual is required to have a licence to operate in each area. While a taxi driver can pick passengers up in Donegal and drop them at their destination, it is not possible for the taxi driver to end up in Dublin and start operating out of Dublin. The Deputy has made a very good suggestion about the courts. However, the Bill provides for an appeal mechanism which will probably meet the Deputy's requirements.
Deputies' contributions have ranged from the legislation before us to the multiplicity of regulatory changes introduced as a consequence of the implementation of the review which I chaired. As there is considerable duplication and overlap, I will refer to both of them. Indecon estimated a 22% oversupply, which I regarded as quite low. While I rarely see Dublin on a Saturday night, even on a Thursday or a Friday it is possible to see it.
Clearly, there is oversupply and I accept that totally. However, I want to say out straight that I deal with the taxi industry at a level of detail that, by and large, no other Minister has done previously. The majority of taxi drivers are decent, honest and genuine people and that is the case throughout the country. I have met them in Letterkenny, Galway, Cork, Portlaoise and throughout the country. This is the case in particular for full-time taxi drivers. The motivation behind the regulations and legislation I am introducing is to ensure they can do an honest day's work and not work a 16 hour day to ensure they bring home an honest day's pay. Unfortunately, through the laissez-faire and non-priority approach politically of previous Governments towards this industry the food has been taken out of their mouths, but I aim to change that. Much of this work is motivated by my personal experience, knowledge and interaction with such people, who, I believe, are decent hard-working people.
I examined the issue of capping licences when I first came to office. However, legally I cannot do it. There are various reasons relating to Irish and European law which mean I cannot do it and there are several court cases that have set a precedent in this area. All of this means it would be folly for me to try to set a cap. Having said that, we have considered the issue through this legislation and the regulatory changes we are introducing through the National Transport Authority. The idea is to change completely the way the industry is regulated through the NTA. Under the authority there will be a range of qualitative and legislative changes to deal with the industry and make it fit for purpose. This will not happen overnight - I accept that - but I believe it will take place as a result of all the changes. If they are truthful about it, those in the industry will admit they have seen that already.
Some Deputies raised the issue of a buyback scheme for licences in order to bring down the numbers. To put it straight, I do not believe licences should have a monetary value. My driving licence does not have a monetary value and similarly I do not believe taxi licences should have such a value. Years ago a person had to pay thousands for a licence which were trading for serious money and it was absolutely ridiculous. I am ensuring there is a prohibition on the transfer of licences. This is something the majority of taxi drivers have welcomed. The situation of the rental market and that aspect of the industry was completely ridiculous. Now, when a person rents a car, he must rent the whole package. A person does not simply secure his licence and then proceed to get the car and the equipment. The whole thing must be in one and, therefore, an owner is responsible.
I had to make one change relating to the prohibition on licence transfer. This relates to when someone with a licence passes away. There is an exemption in this area for several months afterwards and someone can apply as a member of the family to take on the licence. To be honest, I did that as a result of representations to the taxi steering group and I made the change on the basis of the request.
The issue of prohibition has been raised. An amendment will be introduced on the next Stage relating to companies because a percentage of licences are owned by companies and we need to ensure there is an approach to deal with that. I will deal with that on Committee Stage.
Much of the Bill deals with the issue of people who have serious convictions and who have a licence to drive a taxi. Put simply, there are people, possibly driving by this building tonight, who simply should not be behind the wheel of a taxi. I am not suggesting there are many of them, but they do exist. Given that there is legislation providing powers to deal with this, it is an insane and crazy situation in 2013. We all have loved ones who could get into the back seat of a taxi driven by a person who certainly should not be behind the wheel of any public service vehicle. That is the motivation. The motivation is to ensure we have an industry fit for purpose and, from a consumer point of view, one in which the consumer can trust and feel safe using. In addition, drivers must feel safe as well because the number of attacks on drivers is ridiculous and there has been completely unacceptable behaviour by some among the public.
People have raised the issue of the various timelines that are being put out depending on the conviction. This relates to the number of years, whether retrospective or in future, a person will lose his licence if he has certain convictions. We must be proportionate and we need to work closely with the Attorney General to ensure the prohibition or withdrawal of a licence is proportionate to the crime of which the person is convicted. This is what the table in the Bill outlines.
The issue of those who have convictions and who were released under the Good Friday Agreement has been raised by several colleagues, especially those in Sinn Féin. I simply do not believe this is the appropriate place to deal with that issue, but that is not to dismiss it. The issue goes beyond the Taxi Regulation Bill. It is a broader issue. I have taken many soundings and advice, including advice from the Attorney General. The issue is broader than the Bill and most Deputies, if they thought about it logically, would accept that. There is a broader issue in respect of those who were released under the Good Friday Agreement, their rights under the Agreement and how, as a nation, we are dealing with it. That is why there is a provision in the Bill to allow people a fair amount of time to go through the courts in a reasonable way if they believe they should have their licences back. However, there is another point, which was raised by Deputy Pringle as well. There is a possibility that this issue should have been raised under the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill in some fashion. Some Deputies, especially from Sinn Féin, have said that amendments were tabled. I have not had a chance to clarify it but I understand amendments were tabled to this Bill in the Seanad. However, to my knowledge no amendments were tabled in the Dáil or Seanad on the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill in respect of the Good Friday Agreement. That may be something that should be reflected on by others.
This legislation brings changes in the area of fixed penalties. I took advice from the taxi advisory committee in respect this issue. I changed the penalties and made some of them more lenient because I believed it was necessary. We added several penalties and we brought in the issue of penalty points or demerits as they are termed in the legislation because if someone is constantly going against the regulations and laws, he should have his licence suspended.
I accept absolutely the views of every Deputy on rank space. It is an issue in every major city. Every year I meet people in local authorities in the major cities and I am always asking them to provide more rank spaces for taxes. We are constantly looking at this and local authorities are constantly looking at the issue of bus lanes and lay-by space and anything that can be used, especially at night because that is when the surge occurs. Work is ongoing in this area with all the major local authorities.
Many speakers have said that we are doing a good deal of work in this area but they have questioned whether there will be enforcement. There will be enforcement. I estimate the number of enforcement officers will treble. This will not necessarily unfold as Deputy Pringle envisages. We need to consider this area and reflect on what meets the requirements. However, the capacity of the Bill allows flexibility if we need to ramp up or down in certain areas. To be frank, initially, after this legislation is enacted, we need to ramp up quickly and that is what the Bill allows us to do. I imagine Deputy Pringle appreciates that. Enforcement is a major issue and there is no point in putting in place all of these regulations and the legislation to back them up if we do not enforce them.
Technology has contributed significantly to the industry in recent years.
For example, the National Transport Authority has developed an app for one's telephone that enables one to check every taxi driver before getting into the car. This is a fantastic, widely used application, which incidentally is used a great deal by taxi drivers. One also sees the Hailo app among others and technology is contributing greatly. However, one must be able to ensure the industry is good enough both to allow this technology to facilitate people and to embrace the technology in the first place in order that it all works together, as I believe it will.
I propose to introduce a number of amendments on Committee Stage on a range of issues, one of which concerns the issue of a notification to the employer that one is driving a taxi. There is an issue regarding the volume of hours that drivers work that often is discussed with the Road Safety Authority in my Department. Some drivers could have other jobs and I note the case of the "Prime Time Investigates" television programme when someone also was a bus driver. This issue must be dealt with because it is not safe to drive vehicles, be they buses or trucks, for hours on end and then get into a taxi straight away and continue driving. I believe everyone will accept this point. Rural hackney licences are necessary because of market failure. This issue is being teased out at present and is a requirement in rural Ireland. I emphasise its purpose is not to displace taxis but simply to ensure there is some form of provision in place to enable communities in rural areas to go about their business, socialise, etc., in a safe environment. Everyone is aware of anecdotes concerning arrangements in different parishes whereby people get lifts, only for tenners to be left on seats and so on. This simply is unacceptable and one is merely waiting for an accident to happen at which point someone will ask why the Government did not do something about it. This is the reality, as I live in rural Ireland and know it well. There also is the issue of community cars but I accept Deputy Pringle's point in particular regarding the subject of hackneys, examining that space and ascertaining how closely together they can be brought. However, I believe this must happen, as rural Ireland is suffering detrimentally and this measure, together with a realigned rural transport scheme, can really help in this regard. This is the reason I am making so many efforts on this issue.
A personal ambition is to ensure the issue regarding those with a requirement for wheelchair taxis is dealt with completely and rapidly. It is unacceptable for people to receive subsidised licences on the basis they will offer this service, only to see them pulling up at Dublin Airport with a load of golf clubs in the back. This is not acceptable. I accept the cost of and specification for these cars are way too high and I am working on a separate measure to bring down those specifications. Moreover, it is intended to create a centralised system whereby those who need such services will be able to place an order. As a result, in the case of someone who refuses to meet the passenger or accept the booking on a number of occasions, there will be a consequence for that person. I believe this to be appropriate and that all Members share my views in that regard.
I will conclude by making the point that over the past year and a half or more, I know of no other Minister who has met industry figures as often as have I. I met them before and as part of the review. I received deputations, accepted submissions and have met groups throughout the country. Moreover, I continue to get representations and I deal with them as much as I can. However, there is a point at which one must make decisions. The industry is extremely fragmented and there are many disparate groups. One probably cannot put two different groups or even two different taxi drivers into a room and get them to agree on things because they simply will not. All Members present are aware of that and are all smiling and laughing because it is the truth. That said, I acknowledge they have genuine concerns. They have been represented and I have taken on each issue and digested it to come out with the best solution possible within the legal parameters that exist. I hope Members respect the point that legal parameters are in place and my Department is bringing forth a combination of this legislation with the regulatory changes, comprising more than 46 measures, that are being put in place in tandem with this Bill. Collectively, this will lead to a better and far superior industry in the coming years. I look forward to the Committee Stage debate later, when I intend to introduce amendments. I also will consider all amendments tabled by any Members at that Stage. I thank Deputies for their time.
Question put and agreed to.