Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 May 2016

Vol. 910 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

This morning, in broad daylight, our capital city witnessed yet another barbaric gangland shooting and murder when Gareth Hutch was brutally murdered on North Cumberland Street. Over the past 100 days, seven men have been murdered in our capital city. I condemn in the strongest possible manner the callous and brutal murders that are taking place and I am sure everybody in the House would agree. The situation is out of control.

Last Thursday, I met various groups representing the north inner city, from the Inner City Organisations Network, ICON, to the Community Policing Forum to the North Inner City Drugs Task Force. They spoke about a community that is under siege and under-resourced in terms of dealing with the fundamentals of this problem, of both the immediate implications of this particular gangland feud and wider issues that underpin this and give rise to its continuance within their community. They are saying intimidation is rife across the community and that young people are getting up to €200 for the distribution of tablets, which is now the main drug form in the area in terms of various medicines and so on. The incentives for young people to get involved in this drug trade are enormous and it is very challenging for other young people to combat that and to send them in a different direction. There is a fundamental disregard for human life and for our community.

These groups are saying to us that they feel the supports that were put in from the late 1990s onwards have been eroded over the past number of years. For example, the young people's development and facilities fund is being undermined by Tusla as we speak and other kinds of supports that were steadily put in are being taken away from them.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have a question, please?

Deputy Micheál Martin

In 1996, after the murder of Veronica Guerin, there was a scaling up of the State's interventions to deal with that situation. The fundamental question is whether the Taoiseach accepts that a similar scaling up is required from the State right now in terms of what is going on in the north inner city and this particular gangland feud. An inter-agency targeted response is required to deal with all the issues that have given rise to this situation, from education to employment. The need to establish mini-criminal assets bureaux to deal with community-based drug dealers, for example, is something that they are advocating and want immediate action on. Can the Taoiseach confirm that such a high-level, targeted inter-agency response will be provided by the Government as a matter of urgency?

The Taoiseach

First, I absolutely condemn the cold-blooded murder of a man this morning, when gunmen entered the Avondale House flats on North Cumberland Street and shot two nephews of Gerry Hutch. Gareth Hutch, aged 35, was fatally wounded and Ross Hutch, aged 24, is understood to have received non-fatal injuries. This happened in broad daylight, in very close proximity to an armed Garda unit on patrol.

I utterly condemn what has happened today. These people know no respect for life or limb. I have heard people from the community speak today including the Archbishop of Dublin. I have received an invitation from Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan to go to the location and I intend to accept the invite. I was there recently when I attended the funeral of Martin O'Rourke, an innocent man who was murdered in close proximity to the location of today's shooting.

Deputy Martin has pointed out that when Veronica Guerin, God rest her, was shot at Newlands Cross, the Government of the day ramped up the situation to deal with those who carried out that murder and the gangs involved at that time. Obviously it took quite a long time for people to be brought to justice and to serve prison sentences arising from that murder. I met with the Garda Commissioner along with senior Garda personnel and the Minister for Justice and Equality quite recently. I asked the direct question: "Are you having sufficient resources made available to you to do the job that you need to do?" I think that Deputies might not fully appreciate the scale of personnel involved in this kind of activity from a Garda resources point of view. I was assured, as was the Minister for Justice and Equality, that the resources and facilities are being made available to gardaí which they require to do the job. The Minister also met with people last week and very major investigations are ongoing since the Regency Hotel murder. The work that has to be done by the gardaí and by intelligence personnel is painstaking and very labour intensive and that point was made to me. Over the years gangland criminals have become more sophisticated in the way they communicate but not so much in the way they deliver their death warrants which is still by guns and bullets and at times entry to locations where indiscriminate shooting takes place.

There has been absolutely no scaling back with regard to the operations or resources available to the Commissioner and the gardaí to do this job. Following this morning's murder and shooting I hope the Garda can bring those perpetrators to justice quickly.

An Ceann Comhairle

There will be one minute for a supplementary response. I call Deputy Martin.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am quite disappointed by the Taoiseach's response. It is not just about gardaí and resourcing of the Garda, although the communities are very clear that they need additional policing. What is happening is not working. There have been seven murders in the space of 100 days. It is very challenging for the gardaí. Community groups have been pointing out that there has been a sustained erosion of the supports they once enjoyed. The root cause of this is the drug trade. We have had the absence of a Minister for drugs for quite a long number of years which has been a mistake. There is an absence of a deep strategy. Something had to happen - and it did happen - in Limerick to elicit an above normal response. One needs a consistent and sustained multi-agency approach to this issue from the bottom up. Community supports need to be put in place, education supports need to be put in place along with stronger out of the norm employment supports for the medium and longer term issues. In the immediate sense there is a huge issue around intimidation which is rife in that locality and with regard to the degree to which these gangs are controlling the scene there. It is at this particular point out of control. I ask the Taoiseach if he accepts my point about the multidimensional nature of this problem. It is not just one issue on its own. It really needs the Government to take a specific, focused, out of the normal response to the north inner city area to free the people there-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----to allow the citizens to live quality lives in safety, security and in peace, which is a basic obligation of the State to its people and to its citizens and which unfortunately is not being fulfilled right now because of these marauding gangs. That is the reality and the Government needs to wake up to that.

The Taoiseach

Nobody disputes that fear stalks the streets and the communities to which he refers and which I have heard people speak of. However, it is not normal to have 1,000 intensive, armed checkpoints since February in any location but that is what is being done. The Minister met with the Commissioner to request particular strengthening of Garda resources to deal with gangland crime in the inner city and an extra €5 million was made available to concentrate police measures in those areas. Young men and young women working with the police force who know those areas are the personnel and yet this morning in the Avondale House flat complex, despite the fact of the proximity of an armed Garda checkpoint, these killers went in and murdered one man and wounded another.

Obviously for communities the very visible checkpoints themselves cause consternation and fear - and why would they not when people normally go about their business in a law-abiding fashion. This is a vicious and murderous dispute between two families and I do not think I can stop that. However, the Government can provide the resources and wherewithal that the Garda Commissioner needs in order to have her forces deal with this in the way that they have to.

I am quite prepared to accept that things are different than they were 20 years ago but I would like the Minister for Justice to see to it that we meet with those communities and demonstrate to them that the Government is serious about their protection and that there would be no diminution of facilities, services or resources. I believe I will accept Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan's invitation to meet those communities to hear at first hand what the Deputy is telling me. From our point of view the Garda Commissioner has confirmed that she is happy with resources, the strength and the facilities made available to the gardaí to deal with this. This is another unfortunate murder and shooting of another man.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Last week during Leaders' Questions the Tánaiste told the Dáil that a statement from the Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan would be forthcoming to clarify matters arising from the O'Higgins commission. Thus far there has been no clarification from the Garda Commissioner or the Minister. In my questions to the Tánaiste I made the case that the Minister for Justice was the line manager of the Garda Commissioner and the Minister was accountable to the Dáil. I asked her if she had spoken to the Garda Commissioner about what instructions she gave to her legal team about Sergeant Maurice McCabe. I also asked the Tánaiste if two senior officers had claimed that Sergeant McCabe had told them that he had acted with malice in raising issues of Garda malpractice in Cavan-Monaghan. The Tánaiste refused to answer those questions. According to press reports the Tánaiste also said at the weekend that the Commissioner would clarify the controversy in her own time. If that is an accurate account of the Tánaiste's comments it is not acceptable.

Today's killing of Gareth Hutch is to be condemned like the other murders. I attended a community vigil in the north inner city last week and these events, the scale of the illegal drug trade and the neglect of these neighbourhoods are a tragic reminder of our solemn obligation to ensure communities victimised by criminality have the very best policing service in order to safeguard and uphold their rights. Citizens of this State, An Garda Síochána itself, and in particular victims of serious crimes, deserve this. The Opposition, as an Taoiseach knows, has a duty to uphold and to hold the Government to account. Government Ministers have a duty to answer questions put to them by the Opposition-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question?

Deputy Gerry Adams

Yes. I will ask the Taoiseach the same questions I asked the Tánaiste. Has he spoken to the Garda Commissioner? Could the Taoiseach explain to the Dáil what instructions the Garda Commissioner gave to her legal team about Sergeant McCabe? Would the Taoiseach tell the Dáil whether two senior officers claimed that Sergeant McCabe had admitted to them that he acted with malice?

The Taoiseach

I have not spoken to the Garda Commissioner about this matter. The O'Higgins report is due for debate in the House tomorrow. The findings of the report are very clear.

I intend to make a short contribution to that debate myself. The Garda Commissioner is due to appear before the independent Policing Authority on Thursday and that is an opportunity for the Commissioner to speak.

Deputy Adams is well aware that it seems as if a person or persons were very much aware of what they were doing when they chose to leak selected pieces of evidence from a commission of investigation which in itself is an offence, as Deputy Adams is also well aware. I have no idea who that person or persons is or are. The Minister for Justice and Equality has pointed out that the Garda Commissioner has an opportunity to make a statement and I understand the Commissioner is due before the independent Policing Authority on Thursday.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach's answer is not good enough. These are genuine questions put in a very straightforward way. That he or the Minister for Justice and Equality has not spoken to the Garda Commissioner since these issues first came into the public realm is not the right way to do business, and he refuses to treat the Dáil with the respect it deserves by refusing to answer straightforward questions. The Taoiseach should remember that he did this in the long run into the events which led to the unprecedented resignations of the Garda Commissioner, the Garda confidential recipient, the former Minister for Justice and Equality and the Secretary General at the Department of Justice. The Taoiseach knows well that the former Minister for Justice and Equality, Mr. Alan Shatter, was embroiled in a series of scandals when the two Garda whistleblowers raised concerns about practices in the upper echelons of the Garda. Those Garda whistleblowers were smeared and bullied. Rational proposals from us and others here in the Dáil were ridiculed by the Ministers as well as the Taoiseach at the time.

An Ceann Comhairle

We need a question, Deputy Adams, please.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach was then alerted to the tapping of telephone calls in and out of Garda stations. After telling the Dáil there was nothing to see, he acted in an entirely unorthodox way, and the Taoiseach will recall I said that at the time.

Let us not forget that the most important people in all of this are the victims of the crimes that were not properly investigated. Therefore, I ask the Taoiseach again if he will, as a matter of urgency, speak to the Commissioner or authorise, instruct or request the Minister for Justice and Equality to do so. Will he ask the Garda Commissioner what instructions she gave to her legal team and whether or not two senior officers claimed that Sergeant McCabe admitted to them that he acted with malice?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams asked me if I had spoken to the Commissioner about this matter and I answered him by saying that I had not spoken to the Commissioner about it. As Deputy Adams is well aware, the Commissioner is not entitled to speak to me or anyone else about evidence she would have given under oath to the O'Higgins commission.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It was not evidence; it is her instructions to her brief.

The Taoiseach

Clearly, the leaking of selected pieces of information is an offence.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Tell that to RTE.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What is the Taoiseach doing about it though?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, one speaker.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Justice and Equality is in touch on an ongoing basis with the Garda Commissioner and the Garda will investigate whether there is any issue of disciplinary action that should be taken arising from what has happened here.

Deputy Gerry Adams

What has happened, Taoiseach? Tell us what just happened.

The Taoiseach

The Garda Commissioner is to appear before the independent Policing Authority on Thursday.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Taoiseach to conclude.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I thought she was answerable to the Dáil.

The Taoiseach

Obviously, she has the opportunity to make a statement there in answering questions from the authority.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

In the worst of times, the previous Administration had a good record on dealing with public servants and their representatives when money was very tight and this country was under the cosh of the troika. The maintaining of industrial peace during that period was in stark contrast to what happened in other programme countries. Right now, as our economy is improving, we can see a fall in unemployment, but we also see very grave concerns arising across the public services. Members of An Garda Síochána are outside this House at the moment. Nurses are on work to rule in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital. Teachers are planning industrial action and other elements of the public service are also indicating that they will want changes in the negotiated pay settlements.

Will the Taoiseach confirm that the Haddington Road and Lansdowne Road agreements will be implemented fully both in terms of the pay restoration but also in the timeframe set out in those agreements or is it his plan to accelerate those payments? Will he accelerate the rate of pay restoration in light of the economic improvements that the Government has constantly underlined? In particular, will he accelerate the restoration through reduced pension related deductions, PRD, to public sector pensions?

The Taoiseach

First I should say that Deputy Howlin, in his previous capacity as Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform in the previous Government, did an enormous job in dealing with very difficulty circumstances. I have commended him publicly before for his engagement with trade unions on public sector pay in very difficult circumstances given the nature of the decisions that the Government of the day were to make, particularly in the first three years.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is no way to treat the Opposition.

Deputy Damien English

We will talk to you in three years' time.

The Taoiseach

I thought I should say it anyway, Deputy Martin. Partnership.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

An pholaitíocht nua.

Deputy Joan Burton

Slurp, slurp.

Deputy Simon Coveney

It would be nice if you had something nice to say, but you did not.

The Taoiseach

The programme for Government contains a very strong commitment in the Lansdowne Road agreement and I confirm that will be implemented fully as will the Haddington Road agreement. That gives a good framework for the next few years for the Government's proposals for a continuation of public service reform as well as setting out an agreed pathway to pay restoration for public servants that is affordable to taxpayers. It is also important to respect the fact that the overwhelming majority of public servants have committed to working within that framework and have made very considerable sacrifices in the interest of restoring the fiscal health of the country. This has been confirmed, as Deputy Howlin is aware, by his successor, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, in his recent meeting with representatives of the public service trade unions and it is now the basis for all engagements between Ministers and the bodies representing staff in their particular sectors.

The Government is committed to achieving its programme on a sustainable fiscal basis. Having certainty over the next few years on the question of the pay bill is of absolutely critical importance to the future work of the Government, which is underpinned by an affordable public pay bill. It will allow for the funding of some necessary staff increases to meet needs in critical areas of the public service. The agreements have to be, and will be, implemented in their entirety, as the best way forward to meeting the needs of our public service in terms of pay policy while also continuing to reform work practices and deliver a public service that is held up as a model for others.

The Government would like to encourage those who have not yet signed up to the Lansdowne Road agreement to give their consideration to it. These are difficult choices and difficult circumstances. I know some of the unions have made their voting intentions clear. I want to emphasise to Deputy Howlin that there is no desire on the part of the Government to be at odds with its employees on this issue and Deputy Howlin is well aware that the Government has fully funded the commitments made under the Lansdowne Road agreement. However, I do wish to emphasise that the Government intends to keep faith with the overwhelming majority of public servants who have committed to working within that framework and who have made considerable sacrifices in restoring the economic health of the country.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I thank the Taoiseach for his kind comments, but I am a little confused. Is the Taoiseach saying that the timeframe and the rate of pay restoration will only be done in accordance with the agreement under the Haddington Road and Lansdowne Road agreements and that there will be no deviation from that? Is that the stated Government position? Further, what are the Government's plans for addressing recruitment difficulties in key areas such as in the nursing sector where there are now 1,800 vacant posts? Will his Government step outside the architecture of the Haddington Road-Lansdowne Road agreement to deal with that particular issue?

The Taoiseach

In respect of the latter, there is no embargo on recruitment provided that the hospital in question has the resources to recruit the staff necessary. In particular, there is no embargo in respect of critical staff being employed in the intensive care unit.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

My question was whether there will be changes to their terms and conditions.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Howlin is well aware, we cannot have an open-ended recruitment process if the money and resources are not available, either for particular hospitals or for any Department.

The Minister has not commented upon any expediting of the agreements, save to say that both will have to be implemented in their entirety. He has commended the many hundreds of thousands of public servants who have committed to working within that regime. Clearly, in the case of those who are outside, there is a willingness to work with the unions to see how the matter might be moved on. However, we cannot have a situation where the same benefits apply for those who have voted to remain outside because of the considerable sacrifices implemented by many of those public servants in the interests of restoring the financial health of the country. That is why the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act was put through before the Christmas period, as Deputy Howlin is aware.