Before I raise the issue, I wish to ask who will be taking it.
Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate
School Accommodation
Which Department are you in?
We will not have a question and answer session now. With any Topical Issue, Deputies have a choice not to go ahead with it if the Minister is not here.
I wish to express my view and then I will make a decision whether I will or will not proceed. I am very disappointed. This is the third time I put down a Topical Issue debate and the senior Minister has not come in. People want to be elected to this House, and when they get elected, they want to become Ministers. When they become Ministers, it is like that thing we used to have in the newspaper, spot the ball. Now it is spot the Minister, because you cannot get a Minister into the Oireachtas anymore. This is their place to be, in Dáil Éireann, not wherever they are today. This is the third time the Minister for Education has refused to come into this House to answer queries that I raise. Here we are again today. There is no senior Minister here again. I see it when I am in the Chair myself. That they are not here is total disrespect for people who bring in motions. I will take this because it is such an important issue. If the senior Minister and no officials are here, I am sure this is only wasting my time. However, this is such a serious issue that I will raise it.
It is about Holy Trinity National School. It is based in a Church of Ireland school building that is more than 200 years old. The building was first deemed unfit for purpose by the Department of Education in 2010. It has been on the school building list since 2015 and due on site in 2018. The principal, Orla Brickenden, asked the Sisters of Mercy for an abandoned former school – the Scoil Phádraig site. The nuns agreed to give the site to Holy Trinity for a new school. The Department of Education took ownership of the site. Years passed. The Department and the local authority wrangled over who would take over the ownership, and eventually it was taken over. The Department of Education then attempted to put Holy Trinity National School and Education Together in the same site. That did not work. More years passed. In 2022, the Department wrote to Holy Trinity and acknowledged the frustration and significant concerns caused by the delays on this project. The Department undertook to do work to advance the project until the brief had been completed as expected by Holy Trinity. In October 2022, a design team at the cutting edge of advanced environmental school design was appointed. To be fair to the school, it played the game. It saved the blocks. It was going to be environmentally friendly and the Department was delighted with that. But then what happened? In March 2024, the Department announced that while the Holy Trinity school project was to process through the various stages, the Department intends to use the old building and has explained what it will do. It was going to spend a fortune of money putting another school in the old building because of overcrowding in the other school.
This is not fair on this Protestant school. Ministers go all over the world lecturing other countries about equality and everything else. We are trying to have it in this country. This is a small Protestant school that was promised its school building since 2015, yet here we are now. The Minister for Education and the Department of Education will now do up an old school, put another school into it for the short term, then knock it and rebuild an old school. What is going on in the Department of Education and what is it doing to this project and the school? It talks about everybody working together on this island. Well, it is not showing a very good example when this Protestant school is being treated like this in the town of Westport. I call on the Minister to immediately get some other place for the overcrowded school and start the build on Holy Trinity school.
I am taking this on behalf of the Minister for Education. I thank the Deputy for raising the matter as it gives me, on behalf of the Minister for Education, the opportunity to provide an update to the House on the current position regarding the major school building project for Holy Trinity National School in Westport, County Mayo.
The major building project for Holy Trinity is to provide a new four-class primary school with one class special education needs base and involves the renovation and extension of an existing former school building. This would also provide a general purpose room, a library and resource area, a principal’s office, a general office and other ancillary accommodation. The project to which the Deputy referred has been devolved for delivery to Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board and it appointed a design team to progress the project through the necessary architectural stages of design, statutory approvals, procurement and construction. As the Deputy may be aware, the project to develop the Minister-owned former Scoil Phádraig building at Altamount Street for Holy Trinity National School was approved at stage 1 following a recent stage meeting.
While Holy Trinity National School’s project progresses through its various stages, the Department has identified the former Scoil Phádraig building as a solution for urgent temporary accommodation needs for Sacred Heart School Westport. As the Deputy may be aware, a project to provide a new replacement school building for Sacred Heart School in Westport is planned. Modular accommodation has already been provided on the Sacred Heart School site to facilitate the vacation of the parts of the school that were in the poorest condition. However, the condition of the remaining accommodation is such that there is a requirement to vacate the majority of this to support a safe working environment for the staff and students in that school. The Department is following through on this requirement as a matter of urgency. After significant work to identify and consider all potential options, the use of the former Scoil Phádraig building was identified as the only viable solution to meet this urgent accommodation need in the timeline required.
The Department is conscious that the use of the former Scoil Phádraig building as an interim solution for Sacred Heart School has raised some concerns on the part of the Holy Trinity National School community. In that context, the Department has had productive engagement with the school’s patron, the Bishop of Tuam, Limerick and Killaloe. The Department officials have confirmed to the patron that there is a continued commitment to the delivery of the Holy Trinity National School project and set out some assurances and proposals of how the Department can support Holy Trinity National School in the interim as well as enhancing the overall outcome for the school in the medium term. As a first assurance, given the importance of the delivery of the Sacred Heart School project, which includes accommodation for Westport ETNS, for the affected school communities, including Holy Trinity National School, the project for Sacred Heart School has been slotted into one of the Department’s delivery programmes that has existing project management supports to support and facilitate project delivery. This approach will significantly aid the timeline for the Sacred Heart School project. The brief for the project has been finalised and it will commence stage 1 in the coming weeks. In effect, this means that the Sacred Heart School project is just one stage behind the Holy Trinity National School project.
The Department has invited all relevant patrons to join an oversight group that will monitor progress on the projects for Holy Trinity National School, Sacred Heart School and Westport ETNS. Given the inter-relationship between these projects, the Department will be making arrangements for the project manager and the design teams for both projects to liaise and work closely together to ensure both projects get progressed as quickly as possible through the various stages of design, tender and construction.
While the Sacred Heart School project is of significant scale, as part of good co-ordination between both projects, the Department is proposing a phased construction that would prioritise the finalisation and vacation of the Scoil Phádraig building.
This has been going on since 2010. I will simplify it for the Minister of State, that he might bring it back to the Department. The first thing I will do today is write to the Comptroller and Auditor General about why taxpayers' money is going to be wasted.
The school has been abandoned in recent years but the Department is going to put taxpayers money into it now. Holy Trinity is the Protestant school, but if this was a Catholic school it would not happen. Because it is a small Protestant school the Department is taking advantage of the Protestant community in Westport. I call on the Minister today to abandon the idea and to find another place for the school in Westport that has a problem. It should start the new build on the Protestant school that has been ongoing since 2010. What is going on in the Department of Education is a scandal. I do not know how it could even think about doing this. How could it think about doing up an old building that has been abandoned for three years, spending taxpayers' money on it and then knocking it again and building a new school on it?
There is something wrong in the public service in this country at the moment. I am going to write to the Comptroller and Auditor General today to ask him to investigate how we could allow taxpayers' money to be wasted on a building that is condemned, one that will be knocked and rebuilt. The Department is now going to put money into it, knock it again, and build a new school. There is something very wrong - something rotten - in the Department of Education. It is wrong. I hear senior Ministers lecturing about what is going on in Israel. What is going on in Mayo is not right. It is not right what is being done to the Protestant community. I call on the Department of Education and the Government today to build the Protestant school in Westport. Let us have equality.
I fully understand the frustration the Deputy feels on this matter but it is important to acknowledge – this is not from a script - that there are more than 1,500 projects being dealt with by the Department. While the interim works on the Scoil Phádraig building will serve as a first phase for the Holy Trinity National School project, the progression of the project for the remainder of the works will be managed in tandem with the Sacred Heart School project, to facilitate the commencement of the works upon the vacation of the building by the Sacred Heart School. Every effort is being made by the Department to fast-track the project. The Department set out that clearly in the reply.
The other issue that needs to be taken into account is the safe operation of the schools. The safe operation of schools - in this instance the Sacred Heart School - is of paramount importance to the Department. Nevertheless, the Minister wants to reiterate the Department’s commitment to the Holy Trinity National School project and getting it delivered as quickly as possible. The Minister thanks the Deputy for raising the issue. Every effort is being made to prioritise this project, but in the meantime the reason for the proposed approach is safety.
If we have to wait for the school it will be ten years before the new school is built.
Deputy Ring should not interrupt.
It is not right. It is discrimination against the Protestant school. I want to put that on the record.
The Deputy should please not interrupt.
I will come back to the Minister with the Deputy's concerns. As I said, I am stepping in for the Minister for Education and that is the information I have received. I will convey the Deputy's concerns to her.
I do not think they know what is going on in the Department. That is the problem.
The Deputy should please not make any personal comments in regard to matters. Deputy Ring chose to go ahead with the Topical Issue. I understand his frustration but he chose to go ahead with it.
I beg the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's pardon.
Deputy Ring chose to go ahead with the Topical Issue today, so he cannot have it both ways.
I am sorry. I cannot hear the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
That is okay. Sometimes it is good not to hear.
Energy Policy
I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this issue and I also thank the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, for being here to take it. I raised the issue very briefly with him on Priority Questions last week but I am glad to have some extra time here to focus on it.
I am concerned that people, who are isolated, have exorbitant bills related to heat pump use. I have spoken to members of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and they referenced an increase in calls in that regard. I have a number of cases in my own constituency offices, which I will raise with the Minister of State. From my own research it looks like there is something of a pattern here. In an article by Paul McNeive in the Irish Independent just last week he said he suspects that there are thousands of heat pumps not working properly in Ireland. He said he speaks to engineers who talk about issues such as undersizing, incorrect installation, incorrect commissioning, the localisation of foreign manufactured heat pumps, and backup electric immersion heaters. The installation and the commissioning are an acknowledged piece. When I raised it with the council and others in Meath they talked about the know-how on the operation of these systems. I hear really good and positive accounts of heat pumps that are working well and where people are comfortable using them but when I put this out on social media yesterday, some people said it took them a few weeks to get used to the system and to get it calibrated and working correctly. My concern is that there is a cohort of people who, through a combination of the installation and-or the operation of these systems, are suffering with exorbitant bills. They are not in a position to have the comfort of being able to build up a bill of hundreds of euro while they take time to get used to the system. A bill for hundreds of euro is something they cannot live with, although there are other people who can live with it.
Paul McNeive put it well in his article. He said that once it is discovered that there is an issue with the heat pump, the question is where the problem lies. Is it with the manufacturer, the installer, or the commissioning engineer? Is the tenant or the homeowner responsible? The question is wherein lies the responsibility. Everybody points to each other, but in the meantime the arrears are accruing and bills are increasing.
The SEAI conducted some behavioural studies in advance of the energy conference it has in the RDS. The Limerick Leader covered similar terrain in terms of the high cost of bills. The headline of one article by David Power in March referred to heat pump system bills being higher than a mortgage and that is frightening off Irish homeowners switching. Given that the Minister of State wants to see a significant roll-out of heat pumps there is the added implication that if there is a huge cost associated with them that it is a bad news story for them but I fear a small cohort of people are being driven into bad energy poverty and that there are not the supports or system in place for them.
I thank Deputy O'Rourke for raising this important issue which provides an opportunity to have a debate on heat pumps. The National Heat Study considered potential decarbonisation options for a wide range of dwelling and business types. It found that heat pumps are the optimal decarbonisation pathway for domestic heating systems.
Heat pumps are now the dominant heating technology for new builds with CSO data showing that heat pumps were installed in 95% of new dwellings during the first three quarters of last year. Heat pumps are also installed as part of retrofit projects, mainly with the support of SEAI grants or through the local authority retrofit programme.
The Department and the SEAI are working to ensure that the package of supports for heat pumps under the SEAI schemes align with best practice, including engaging with international experts on this issue. The SEAI also operates two heat pump pilots, which aim to inform appropriate processes and approaches to increase the number of heat pumps installations, while ensuring quality.
It is acknowledged that heat pumps that are incorrectly sized, poorly installed, not operated correctly or installed in unsuitable buildings can be less economically effective than traditional heating systems. In order to help mitigate this risk, the SEAI sets out clear requirements for its retrofit schemes to ensure the correct heat pumps are installed in suitable homes. These mitigations include: that the SEAI mandates the qualification of the individuals designing and installing systems; sets minimum standards for the fabric of the home with technical assessments required in homes built before 2007; it mandates the registration and approval of heat pump manufacturers and equipment; and it also mandates the installer to document the handover of the system to the homeowner.
The SEAI also carries out a significant number of inspections of retrofits utilising a targeted, risk-based approach to selecting homes for inspection while ensuring a level of coverage across the contractor base. More broadly, considerable work has been undertaken by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in recent years to grow the capacity of the construction sector and the number of workers with the skills required for nearly zero-energy building, NZEB, and retrofit.
Six NZEB centres of excellence are now in operation offering NZEB and retrofit upskilling and reskilling programmes. As a result, availability and uptake of these courses have increased significantly. The Department of further and higher education indicates that 4,442 people availed of upskilling and reskilling courses across these centres of excellence last year compared with 2,069 in 2022.
Heat pump systems are at their most efficient and effective when generating heat at a lower temperature. In such situations, they are extremely efficient and very economical to run with no requirement for additional heating sources, meaning there are no additional bills for oil, gas or solid fuel.
While electricity prices remain above their pre-pandemic levels, consumers have experienced reductions in electricity prices recently. While this reduction is welcome, I am aware that some homeowners, both with and without heat pumps, have faced challenges with their bills.
It is important to note that, throughout the period of high energy prices, the Government has continued to support energy consumers to stay warm and well. This includes a €2.2 billion suite of cost-of-living supports to assist families, pensioners, carers and people with disabilities as part of budget 2024. The Department is currently developing a revised energy poverty action plan which will be published in the coming months.
I thank the Minister of State for his reply but I have to say, while it is useful information, it does not address the issue I am raising here today. My sense of things is reflected anecdotally and I can give some examples in my own area. A lady contacted my office who moved into a new one-bedroom unit in December. Her first energy bill for six weeks in the house was €615. That is in excess of €100 per week. I met one resident in a complex in Donacarney in east Meath who talked about being under severe stress due to very high energy bills. That resident realised that five or six of her neighbours were in the exact same position. There was a bill of €415 for a month in which a resident had not even taken up the tenancy. This is type of thing with which we are dealing. I have bills here from them of more than €2,000. Arrears accrue significantly and stress accrues to the same degree.
For me, the issue is a combination of the installation and operation of these systems. There needs to be increased oversight in this regard. I am not satisfied with what the Minister of State has said here. In the first instance, I call on the Minister of State to conduct an audit of the heat pumps that are installed and their operation and to talk to energy providers, and St. Vincent de Paul and others, to see if there is an intersection between heat pump installation, whether correct or incorrect, the operation of those and very high bills.
On the education piece, I have seen it time and time again whereby people give the key to the house and walk away. There has to be ongoing support around the use of heat pumps. It is not enough to say it is a new technology and that people should not touch the system and should leave it alone. That is not enough but that is all some people are getting.
These are all reasonable points. The general problem is that Deputy O’Rourke is talking about unease and suspicion from experience he has had anecdotally from people coming to him. Of course, we all make our decisions based on constituents coming to us with issues, but we need more than that to be sure there is a widespread problem or to be sure of what kind of approach we need to mitigate it. As I have said, the SEAI does random inspections. They are risk-based and it tries to cover all the contractors. It makes sure its contractors are properly qualified and certified and that houses have the proper insulation or are suitable for having a heat pump installed. I do not doubt there are people who have had bad experiences and large bills.
The Deputy made the point that there needs to be good education on how to use them and that, in some cases, people have reported that, when they figured out how to use them correctly, they were then able to bring down their bills. I will speak to the SEAI about that. In any particular instance in which someone has a very high bill which does not seem right, I will go to the SEAI and explore it on his or her behalf or the Deputy can go to it directly. If he does not get satisfaction in that regard, he can come back to me so that we can find out why a system that is meant to bring down costs has not operated in that way. It is sometimes a shock for people. They are likely to get a larger electricity bill than before they had a heat pump because they should not be paying a gas, oil or solid fuel bill. That is likely to happen and there is a bit of getting used to the idea that you are now dependent on electricity in a way that you were not.
The SEAI has random inspections and therefore there is an element of audit in this regard. It has a lot of information on its website about how to use a heat pump correctly. I will ask the SEAI about the process for handovers, that is, when a contractor completes, particularly in the context of new builds because the vast majority of people who have heat pumps are new-build customers. It is important they learn how to use them correctly.
Special Educational Needs
I thank the Minister of State for being here this morning. I wish to raise the issue of speech and language services that is affecting the east Cork area. We have wonderful healthcare professionals working across the healthcare service in County Cork and Cork city and in other services in west Waterford which are used by people in my constituency. However, we have problems around resourcing. Unfortunately, one of these areas is speech and language therapy.
Speech and language therapy is of huge importance to younger children in particular going through education who need that assistance to deal with issues with speaking, other communication aspects and swallowing. It is an important service for those people who need it, especially children in education.
Unfortunately, what we are seeing is that there is a recommended timeline of approximately 16 weeks for assessment periods in the public system. What is happening in my neck of the woods, which is only a short spin from where the Minister of State is based, is that waiting times are extending to in excess of 30 weeks. We had a brilliant person in Youghal. Everyone was very fond of the individual who worked in Youghal but that role has now been vacated. Youghal town on the east periphery of Cork now has an empty role because of the HSE embargo. I am sure we will hear something about that this morning. That role is now empty and those cases are being pushed on to Midleton. Midleton was already under significant strain. The workload allocation in the Midleton area has taken on a day’s worth of Youghal cases despite the fact there was already a backlog in this area. I am asking that we look at, resource and try to deal with this going forward.
Only a small number of individuals can fix this problem. There is an immediacy around the fact the embargo is having serious impacts, particularly in rural healthcare settings. The whole point of the primary care model was about providing that care within communities. Youghal, as the Minister of State knows, is earmarked for a new primary care centre. The planning has been submitted for this. It is being developed through the private model with the HSE and it is a good thing. People wanted it locally. It was signed off on in recent years under the new HSE capital development plan. However, I am not going to wait for that for this issue to be solved. I want it done now. The embargo needs to be lifted and it needs to be borne in mind that, prior to the embargo, parents with children due to get those assessments were not waiting around the 16-week timeline but were up at more than 30 weeks. For anyone in east Cork who needs these services, this is intolerable and the impact this has on the children and their development, education and other aspects of their livelihoods is something that goes under the radar as an issue versus other healthcare issues.
I know we have a new Minister of State in place and it is very welcome to see him here this morning. He represents the neighbouring constituency to my own in Cork North-Central. For the people of Cork East, this is an issue and I would appreciate it if the Minister of State would take it back to the Department of Health and explain that the embargo is madness and that this role in Youghal has to be occupied. In addition to that role in Youghal being occupied when it is, we have to look at dealing with that backlog of cases. They are far above what is acceptable for those who need access urgently to those services in the public system.
I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister for Health, who has asked me to thank Deputy O'Connor for raising it and giving him the opportunity to update the Dáil on this important issue.
The Minister recognises the central role that primary care therapy services, and specifically speech and language therapy, play in offering the opportunity for early and cost-effective interventions for children and young people. The Minister acknowledges that the increasing waiting lists for primary care services, and particularly those waiting for a long time to access services such as primary care speech and language therapy, is a source of real concern for clients and their families. The HSE has advised that an increase in referrals has resulted in increased pressure on primary care services. For example, the implementation of the national policy on access to services for children and young people with disabilities and developmental delays now means that more children and young people with non-complex disabilities and developmental needs are being referred to primary care services. Coupled with this additional demand has been increasingly complex presentations in primary care requiring more intensive interventions.
Notwithstanding the current HSE recruitment pause, there have been also persistent challenges in recruiting certain grades of health and social care professionals to meet the demands of primary care therapy services. Indeed, the shortage of such professionals has an impact across several service delivery pillars in the HSE, with competing demands for physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, dieticians and psychologists across both general and specialist services in the community.
In summary, increased referrals combined with the challenges being experienced in recruiting therapy professionals in the HSE, has resulted in an increase in waiting lists for services across the country. In 2023 waiting list action plan funding of €3.5 million was allocated to primary care therapy services which saw more than 5,000 long waiters removed from the waiting lists nationwide. The HSE continues to work to address these challenges, with several initiatives underway including validation of waiting lists to drive increased productivity and ensure effective management of therapists’ time and a focus on reducing the numbers of long waiters. A significant programme of work is also currently underway between the Department and the HSE to develop standardised infrastructure and protocols to support systematic responses to primary care waiting lists. These are in line with similar protocols developed by the NTPF for hospital outpatient waiting list management. This programmatic approach is aimed at ensuring consistency at a national level to waiting list management in primary care, improved access to services regardless of location, as well as a greater understanding of the scale of demand, the drivers of demand and to allow for improved planning, interventions, investment considerations, enhanced productivity, and the most efficient use of capacity.
What the Minister is saying is that there is a challenge in relation to the increase in referrals and the difficulties in recruiting the staff that are needed for these services.
I thank the Minister of State for his reply. However, the reply given in the House this morning makes no reference to the location affected. Considering that the location is in the title of the question asked, that is not acceptable. I ask the Minister of State to bring that back to the Department of Health. When a Deputy comes in here from a constituency and asks a question about an area, the fact that there is not even a reference to the area in the response is quite poor, to be frank.
That aside, I acknowledge that work has been done by the HSE to address backlogs and waiting times. I acknowledge the allocation of resources to this and the fact that there are areas where this has worked out quite well. However, we now have people in the Midleton area who have been waiting for up to two years for services. This is not the fault of the incredibly hardworking professionals that provide those services and I want to be absolutely clear about that. The issue is that the services are just not being resourced at a local level. Even before anybody vacated the Youghal position, there was a problem. That role in Youghal is now lying empty, unfortunately, because of the embargo and the person who left cannot be replaced. The caseload from Midleton has now been combined with the caseload from Youghal. These are two major towns. Midleton is one of the biggest towns in County Cork and Youghal is not a small town either. Both caseloads have been lumped into one office which means, unfortunately, that people are waiting for up to two years when the recommended timeline is 16 weeks. This is so wrong. It is wrong because of its impact on the young people who desperately need these services. These are people who need help to be able to speak and be able to swallow, two of the most basic functions in life. The people who are in the position of needing that assistance from the State need to be taken more seriously by the HSE. I also have an issue with HSE estates management with regard to its prioritisation of projects in that region of the country. There are lots of projects that are well overdue and that need to be addressed. On this issue, it is sinful to leave these roles empty. The embargo needs to be looked at urgently and ended.
I note what the Deputy says in relation to the specific vacancy in Youghal and I will take back his concern to the Minister.
The Minister fully acknowledges the frustration of those waiting too long to access vital primary care services and that of their families. He agrees that much more needs to be done to address waiting lists for speech and language therapy in addition to other key primary care services. This Government is committed to delivering increased levels of healthcare, with service delivery reoriented towards general practice, primary care and community-based services, as demonstrated through the €195 million in recurring annual funding allocated to the enhanced community care programme. Ultimately, a total of approximately 3,500 whole-time equivalent staff will be recruited into the enhanced primary care programme, with a particular focus on clinical staff such as community therapists and nursing staff. These are being recruited to enable the implementation of 96 community healthcare networks along with community specialist teams for older persons and chronic disease management across the country. In addition, following budget 2024, the Minister, in the preparation of the national service plan for 2024, highlighted the urgent need to ensure a consistent approach at national level to primary care therapy waiting list management. In 2024, a pragmatic approach is being rolled out to put in place considerable standardised infrastructure to support systematic responses to primary care therapy waiting lists. To this end, the Department of Health is engaged in ongoing dialogue with the HSE to advance that programme of work to both develop short-term strategies and to address the longer-term management of waiting lists for primary care therapies. Ultimately, it is expected that this work will ensure consistency of access to primary care therapies irrespective of location and in a much more timely manner than is currently the case.
I take on board the Deputy's concern about the vacancy in Youghal and I will convey that to the Department. The Deputy is correct in saying the departmental reply does not specifically deal with that issue. I will take it back to the Department on his behalf.
School Accommodation
I thank the Minister of State for being here this morning. At the outset, I want to welcome the fact that Ireland joined Spain this morning in recognising the state of Palestine. It is nice to have a bit of good news amidst all of the doom and gloom.
To get back to the issue at hand, I want to read from an article published recently in The Echo which states that pupils at Fermoy Educate Together National School are packed into classrooms and lessons are being held in corridors. Under the headline "Children at Cork school taught in hallways as principal pleads for more space" we read that:
A Cork primary school is struggling with a lack of space, leaving vulnerable pupils being taught in corridors and students in cramped classrooms. Fermoy Educate Together National School opened in 2018 in the Community Youth Centre, then moved to their current location, the bottom floor of the old Gaelscoil building the following year. Principal Toni Maguire explained: “Our school has become a place of love, nurture, and acceptance — 62% of our school community has an identified learning need and we strive to provide a school environment which supports all learners. However, we are currently facing a massive crisis, a crisis that the Department of Education has ignored despite many hours of work and proposals from our community.” The school currently comprises four classrooms, a tiny staffroom, and office, she said, and pictures seen by The Echo show students packed into classrooms or being taught in hallways. According to the Department of Education buildings manual, a classroom should be around 80 m2, 'but 5th and 6th class are currently in a room which measures 26 m2,' she said, adding, 'to put it bluntly, the premises are not big enough to fit the children we have. The department agreed to open our school, stating that we could have 104 children on roll; now that we have grown they have thrown out any proposals we have put forward to move. We are a Department of Education school, wedged into the bottom floor of a Department of Education building while there are two floors above which are currently occupied by the ETB - the department has refused to comment on the arrangement that is in place which prevents us from moving into the top floors'. Ms Maguire said, 'My heart breaks for our children who deserve so much better than this,' adding that their additional needs learners are currently being educated in the front hallway of the school. 'Their confidence and self-worth is slowly diminishing as they are on display each day while getting additional support. In addition, our school has been sanctioned an autism class — there is a need for these places in the community and we are the only multi-denominational school within a 40 km radius which would have autism class spaces. However, we cannot open this essential service,' she said.
I have received numerous representations on this matter. I will provide a quote from a grandparent:
My grandson is currently attending Fermoy Educate Together National School in County Cork. The current building housing the school is not fit for purpose. It falls far short of the minimum standards expected in this day and age. Our children are being educated in the corridors and the staff room. They are on show in front of all school visitors and are constantly interrupted during lessons. This is just not acceptable. The Department of Education has put our school in the basement floor of a shared-space building which one must admit was never suitable to cater for 104 children in four mainstream classes, as set out in the divestment agreement. This situation is its responsibility and it is its duty to fix the problem urgently. In addition, the school has been given the go-ahead to open an autism class but due to the complete lack of space, it is unable to go ahead and offer this much-needed class for our family, extended family and the wider community in Fermoy.
I think I did well to get all of that out in four minutes. It shows the chronic lack of engagement and common sense. The school is in an ETB building, cramped on the bottom floor. There is space upstairs. We do not know what the rooms consist of but surely there could be some dialogue to sort this problem out quickly.
I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister for Education. The Minister asked me to thank the Deputy for raising this matter as it provides the Department with an opportunity to clarify the position regarding the development of Fermoy Educate Together National School and, more specifically, the school's request for further accommodation. The Deputy may be aware that Fermoy Educate Together National School is an ordinary mixed school in the town of Fermoy, County Cork. The school had an enrolment in September 2022 of 52 pupils and in September 2023 of 85 pupils. The school is located in the Fermoy school planning area. There are currently 19 primary schools and three post-primary schools in this school planning area.
Fermoy was one of the areas surveyed in 2012 and 2013 under the patronage divestment process where there was sufficient parental demand to support changes in school patronage. The areas surveyed were areas in which demographics were not growing and, therefore, it was unlikely that a new multi-denominational school would be established, for demographic reasons. The policy on patronage divestment is to use existing educational infrastructure to facilitate the provision of diversity in areas where there is no demographic imperative to establish new schools. The reason is, of necessity, the focus of the schools capital programme is the provision of additional school places in primary and post-primary levels to ensure that every pupil can access a school place. As part of the process of identifying a suitable accommodation solution which would facilitate the establishment of the school, the Department liaised with Cork Education and Training Board. In order to facilitate the establishment of the new school, the ETB agreed to the colocation of the Educate Together school at the former technical school site in Fermoy, together with some of the ETB's further education and training services.
Prior to the establishment of the new school in 2018 under the patronage divestment process, the Department of Education and Educate Together, as school patron, agreed that, given the accommodation available at the property and the need for the ETB to accommodate some further education and training services at the property, the school would be established as a four-classroom school and would maintain this configuration in the accommodation in the former technical school unless an existing school building was freed up for use in the area. As part of this engagement, the Department of Education outlined to the school patron the importance of enrolments being managed within available accommodation in a sustainable way and that this be communicated to the school's board of management so that parents could be fully informed, in order to manage expectations.
The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, has a statutory function to plan and co-ordinate the provision of educational support services to children with special educational needs in consultation with the relevant education partners in the Health Service Executive. This includes the establishment of special classes and special school placements in various geographical areas where there is an identified need. When the NCSE sanctions a special class in a primary or post-primary school, school authorities can apply to the Department of Education for capital funding to reconfigure existing spaces within the school building to accommodate the class or to construct additional accommodation under the Department of Education's additional school accommodation scheme, or both. The Department of Education works closely with the NCSE on forward planning for increased special education provision in the form of additional special classes and special school places. This close management with the NCSE involves strategic planning to ensure existing accommodation capacity is utilised and maximised in the context of providing new special classes. It also facilitates the identification of required accommodation solutions where additional capacity is required.
We are way over time.
Officials in the Department of Education have been engaging with the school patron, Educate Together, in respect of the current and future needs of the school.
I know the Minister of State is only taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister for Education. In the written response he has provided - I am blessed with power reading - it states, "Fermoy was one area surveyed in 2012 and 2013 under the patronage divestment process where there was sufficient parental demand to support changes in school patronage." The response further states, "... there is no demographic imperative to establish new schools". We all have the constituency dashboards. We know exactly how many kids in each area have autism, the age demographics, how they travel to school and what religion they are. The information is there so I cannot understand why there is no demographic imperative to establish a new school. Later in the Minister of State's written response, it states:
As the Deputy will appreciate, the provision of school places, including for children with special educational needs, is a priority for the Department of Education and the NCSE and the Department will continue to work to ensure that there are sufficient special classes available to meet the needs of pupils in the Fermoy school planning area and across County Cork.
How is the Minister going to make sure there are sufficient places when the principal of the school, every single parent and some grandparents who have contacted me from the school are saying the demand is there? They are in a building that is already occupied by the ETB yet the Department states it will facilitate everything. The school has gone from roughly 87 to 104, I think, in demand, not including the autism class, because they cannot get it. The demographic imperative is that the demand is there. I appeal to the Department of Education to get the finger out and go back and access our constituency dashboards. The information is there from the census that the demand is there. Parents and grandparents are telling the Department that the demand is there, as is the principal. The building is already there yet the Department states it will do everything it can to support it. I had a response from the Minister's office which basically said they were told to only have X amount of pupils but if the demand is there, it is the duty of the Department to provide that service. Why does it not do it?
As already outlined, there are 19 primary schools in the Fermoy planning area. I again thank the Deputy for raising this matter. The Department has ongoing communication with the school's patron regarding the accommodation needs of the school.
The Department of Education continues to liaise with the school and NCSE regarding the provision of accommodation for pupils with special educational needs.
As the Deputy will appreciate, the provision of school places, including for children with special educational needs, is a priority for the Department of Education and the NCSE. The Department will continue to work to ensure that there are sufficient special classes available to meet the needs of pupils in the Fermoy planning area and across County Cork. The main focus of the Department of Education's resources over the past decade and for the coming period is the provision of critical additional capacity to cater for increasing demographics. The Department is required to manage the overall school building programme so that we target and prioritise areas under the greatest pressure for additional school places. This reflects a fundamental objective of ensuring the availability of school places for every child.
The Department of Education has invested over €544.7 million in projects under construction in the Cork area alone. More than 104 projects have been completed in Cork between 2020 and 2023. There are currently 25 projects under construction. The Department is proactive and is delivering. The figures are there, and the investment is happening. This is about careful management for the school. The project involves four classrooms. The Department has taken on board what has been said by the school and is liaising with it.