JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 2003

Vol. 1 No. 5

Food Safety: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome Dr. Patrick Wall, Mr. Ray Ellard and Mr. Peter Whelan of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. I am aware your remit comes under the aegis of the Department of Health and Children, but the joint committee places food safety high on its work programme. In that context we invited you to make a presentation.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Dr. Patrick Wall

I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee. I have provided a pack for members which includes a leaflet outlining the structure of the Food Safety Authority, a survey we undertook on consumer and industry views on food safety to benchmark the concerns of both sectors, a survey we undertook of small producers in December because of questions concerning the cost of compliance threatening the viability of small producers, and a survey on labelling of pork and bacon products.

A chronology of food scares, culminating in BSE, damaged consumer confidence in the safety of food, in the commitment of industry to produce safe food and in the ability of the regulatory agencies to police the food chain. As a result, all member states began to examine how they co-ordinate their food safety control programmes. With the creation of the Food Safety Authority, Ireland was the first member state of the EU to establish a new agency to co-ordinate food safety control across the food chain. There have been huge changes in consumer profiles with increased numbers of older people, of those living alone and of working couples. This has changed the way in which people eat by increasing demands for convenience foods. When two parents in a family are working the evening meal is fragmented with the kids eating in front of the television or at a desk while doing homework and the mother and father eat in different rooms. A Tesco survey last year showed that the time taken to prepare the weekday evening meal in the UK is seven minutes. It is probably five minutes in Ireland since we open the packets more quickly.

The market has changed and that can be seen here where the retail market is dominated by a few major companies and there has been a huge growth in garage forecourt outlets. If you get a puncture in Ireland now you can go to a garage where they will give you a cup of coffee and a sausage roll to console you for being stuck but they will not be able to repair your tyre. They have become major food outlets. New threats have emerged with germs which did not exist in the past. E.coli 0157 is a germ which does not cause mild diarrhoea you can recover from in 24 hours; it can cause kidney failure. It is present in the normal gut flora of cattle and is found in 3% of raw mince on sale in Ireland making it a serious concern.

The objective of the Food Safety Authority is to protect consumer health and we do not have a remit to protect trade, though if it is recognised for high standards, Ireland the food island will benefit. Our boss is the Minister for Health and Children rather than the Minister for Agriculture and Food. In other member states food safety authorities are under the aegis of agriculture ministries, but Ireland decided to place it elsewhere. Our work mainly involves three areas. First, the development of a seamless inspection system across the food chain, though our remit begins at the farm gate. Feed mills and on-farm food safety activity are not under our control. Over 46 agencies had responsibility for various aspects of the food chain and they all looked at their segments with blinkers. There was no formal hand-over system among the 33 local authorities, the ten health boards and the Departments with responsibility for agriculture, marine matters and trade. We have contract arrangements for a standard and level of food safety control activity which we are co-ordinating. The FSAI is a forum to allow the different agencies to work together which they failed to do in the past. There were gaps, inconsistencies and duplications in the span from the farm gate to the consumer.

Our second major role is to prioritise areas of action according to the best available scientific advice. We have a scientific advisory structure in the authority and we draw scientists, who operate on a voluntary basis for us, from the institutions and universities. This advisory structure is a phenomenal national resource and we are very lucky to have it. Our third major task is to get industry to take responsibility for food safety because it is not the regulatory agencies that produce the food and if food is to be made safe it will be farmers, processors and retailers who will do so. We have many initiatives under way with industry sectors and most of the people involved in the industry want to do a good job. We want them to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do for business and customers rather than from fear of prosecution.

The key is to develop a vision for Ireland as a centre of excellence in food production and we want that vision to be shared by all. Our priority is to protect consumer health and we are a consumer protection agency accountable to the Department of Health and Children. We are also interested in protecting consumers' interests. This is where the issue of labelling comes in. Some product masquerades as Irish when it is not and product has added water when it is not supposed to or the level of added water is greater than advertised on the label. While misleading labelling will not make people ill, it is a question of protecting consumer interests, since people assume they are buying locally sourced product when it is labelled as such. Poetic licence in labelling is not in the consumers' interest. Finally, while we are not a trade body, we are interested in upholding Ireland's reputation for high standards, which has a spin-off for everybody in the food export business. If we are to position Ireland as a seller of premium product, this is an area where we can have a role.

A recent issue we dealt with was the import of a shipment of chicken to the UK from Holland which was stopped by the UK food standards agency. It identified the product as having 30% to 40% added water. The UK agency rejected the food and contacted us to say that it suspected the shipment had not been returned to Rotterdam. The chicken had come to Ireland and as you cannot target imports without evidence we examined the products. We found that they contained up to 40% added water and one of our scientists wondered how they were retaining so much water. It was discovered that there was pork protein and bovine protein in the chicken. In the EU a certain amount of chicken is allowed to be imported from Thailand and Brazil and that quota was filled. On further investigation we discovered there is another lower tariff category for salted chicken which is chicken with so much salt that it does not need to be refrigerated en route. This product arrived in Holland where it was tumbled in sucrose to cancel the taste of the salt, they blew the fillets back up to their normal size with water and a bulking agent which contained pork and bovine protein.

Consumers were buying chicken fillets which had bovine and pork protein and added water. Nobody became sick as the chicken was safe. It left Thailand as salted chicken and was adulterated in the EU when it arrived in Holland. We highlighted this issue to the EU which was an example of Ireland punching above its weight since the chicken was being consumed in other member states. The tariff was changed and the loophole is now closed.

We would be wrong to believe we have fantastic standards here, while other countries are shoddy operators. Monaghan Poultry, for example, was closed down, because its standards were questionable. We also had the matter of the Dutch sending us chickens full of water and us sending them pharmaceutical waste from Newbridge, which was later incorporated into pig feed. Everybody has a responsibility to maintain high standards in the Single Market.

I do not wish to rabbit on. Perhaps members would like to ask questions and take the discussion in whichever direction they like. I hope my presentation gives the committee a flavour of where we are coming from and what we are trying to achieve.

Deputy Timmins

I welcome Dr. Wall and his staff. Unfortunately, I must leave in a few minutes to speak in the Dáil. I am sure the document contains a great deal of interesting material. The Food Safety Authority is an excellent resource and a facility which provides reassurance to the general public. For too long, we were only interested in production and did not place sufficient emphasis on the consumer and food safety.

Dr. Wall said his organisation comes within the remit of the Department of Health and Children, which is a good idea. Does he have a view on the current structure of the Department of Agriculture and Food? Should we have a separate Department for food?

On average, how many health warning notices does the FSA serve on premises each week? I accept Dr. Wall may not be able to produce the figure now. One reads that a premises has been closed for a day or two due to non-compliance with food standards. How often do inspectors visit such premises before closing them down? I am sure they are not closed down on a first visit, unless there is a very serious problem, and they are afforded an opportunity to rectify problems. If it is the case that many premises in which unhygienic facilities are prevalent are not closed down, it raises the possibility that potentially dangerous food is being produced on a much greater scale than we imagine.

A tourism Bill is currently going through the Houses. I remember stopping at a premises, which I will not name, while travelling to the Galway races. I would feel sorry for anyone who happened to stop and eat in it. The standards of many of the premises here leave a lot to be desired.

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that the fast food industry could become to the 21st century what the cigarette was to the 20th century. There appears to be a connection between the rise in obesity and the proliferation of fast food outlets and our reliance on preheated and fast foods in the domestic setting. Our approach to work and our lifestyle are also factors. Given the proliferation of fast food outlets and the increased consumption of fast food, should we consider placing health warnings on it to help families?

Dr. Wall

The first question was on what our parent Department should be. We would be happy to come within the remit of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism were a political decision to that effect to be taken. The decision is outside our control. There was a perception that departments of agriculture suffered from CJD - conflicting job description - as they were trying to protect industry and the public at the same time. The FSAI is an independent consumer protection agency and politicians do not interfere with us, except to cut our budgets. We get on with our job. I do not know how to answer the question. My explanation did not provide an answer regarding the role of DAF.

At one time, intervention and hacking and packing were perceived in the beef industry as the only show in town. Now that the major players are the supermarkets, food safety has become an important trade issue. When people come to Ireland, the food island, to buy food, the first question they ask, even before they ask about the quality of the product, is what controls are in place. At one time, people in the food business considered food safety an add-on. It is now an order qualifier, that is, unless one has controls one cannot operate in the food safety business. Food safety and trade have become much more compatible due to high levels of consumer anxiety about food safety.

On the issue of closure orders, the different sectors of the food chain are policed by different parts of the national inspectorate. The health boards are responsible for all the retail and catering outlets. We have 300 environmental health officers responsible for 38,000 premises, of which more open every day. There has been an exponential increase in premises selling food and in the range of foods on offer. For example, a garage forecourt selling sweets today might sell sandwiches tomorrow, quiche the next day and chicken wings the day after. Although there has been huge growth in this area, we have not had a massive increase in the number of inspectors - we would need to clone them to keep pace.

We have categorised premises on the basis of risk and their managerial expertise. We try to target the resources of environmental health officers in the health boards accordingly and have undertaken a large number of initiatives with industry. We have, for example, introduced codes of practice to try to ensure industry has management systems in place to produce safe food 365 days per year.

On the issue of high profile closure orders, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland Act gave the agency draconian powers. Enforcement officers have the power to close a premises on the spot if they consider there is an immediate danger to public health. This is a last resort. Most of the time, our enforcement officers act in an advisory capacity, offering encouragement. One must commit a mortal sin to be closed down as closure is immediate and the name of the company is placed on our website for three months following the resolution of the issues which gave rise to the closure. It is not commercially advantageous to have one's name on the list. When one considers the number of premises in the retail and catering sector - some 38,000 - the number of closures is very small.

On the question of the number of times a premises is visited before being closed down, most premises are given sufficient opportunities to improve and receive advice and improvement notices before that stage is reached. Closure is a last resort.

Due to the number of premises, we are trying to mobilise the public to be more demanding. Irish people do not complain. If people see something shoddy, they should raise it immediately and take their business elsewhere. This would drive up standards. Given that we will never be able to police 38,000 premises for 365 days of the year, we have to make an example of those premises we do close, which is the reason their names are displayed on our website. Hopefully such adverse publicity influences others.

The group of 38,000 premises serving food contains the good, the bad and the ugly. It includes businesses which achieve standards far in excess of the legal requirement, others which are mediocre, and some that are bad. The legal requirement can be compared to the pass leaving certificate. Some businesses are taking honours papers, while others are doing university degrees. This is the range of standards we have.

On the question of fast food, one third of the population is overweight. The most significant problem this country faces with regard to food - I should have said this at the outset - is not that food is unsafe, but that we are all eating too much of it, both the right foods and the wrong foods. Eating has become a social event and food a business. People have choices about the amount they eat. Unfortunately, however, many do not make choices about their health until they become sick, by which time the choice is between chemotherapy and radiotherapy or a bypass operation and a stent. At that stage, it is too late.

Fast food can be safe food and is not necessarily junk food. There are, for example, a significant number of juice bars, including one on Suffolk Street owned by Bono's brother, which serves organic fast food.

There is a great deal of advertising targeted at children encouraging them to eat stuff which is not as healthy as it should be. I do not know what is the solution to this practice. We need to change people's behaviour. Making people aware of the risks does not necessarily lead them to change their behaviour. Everybody knows, for example, that smoking is not good, yet a third of us continue to smoke.

The Food Safety Authority carried out a total diet survey to find out what people are eating. It is interesting to note the degree to which we eat out. In the United States, 52% of all food is eaten outside the home. Worse still, 15% of food is eaten in cars, a practice known as "dashboard dining". We are moving in this direction. This development is a major issue, which goes beyond food safety. It concerns nutrition and lifestyle. People are so busy, they grab food on the move. However, food to go need not be unhealthy. People have the choice to buy healthy options if they wish.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Wall. Maybe he has a dietary programme that he could circulate to the members of the committee.

Deputy Upton

I thank Dr. Wall for his presentation. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland has been successful in raising awareness of food safety standards. I welcome its input and we should offer it every support we can.

The doctor mentioned that he has responsibility from the farm gate onwards in respect of the food chain. Who is responsible for what happens on the farm? Many of the problems that have emerged in the food chain were at farm level because of animal feed and unclean animals. Problems arise on the other side of the farm gate and unless one starts off with the best quality and the safest raw materials, one is fighting a rearguard action afterwards.

With regard to Dr. Wall's comments on fast food, will he elaborate on his role and responsibilities in respect of nutrition and health promotion? Does he feel he has enough power in that area to have an impact on the nutritional aspect of food safety?

Dr. Wall might comment on some current issues, such as trichinosis. Historically, our pigs did not have this but I have noticed recent reports in which it is implied that it might become an issue, particularly in respect of organically farmed pigs. I understand that it originates in this sector. Will the doctor outline what action needs to be taken?

Another current issue is Johne's disease and its link with Crohn's disease. How should that be tackled before it becomes a food safety issue? Standards and controls that are put in place regarding non-EU countries are of concern. How is that issue tackled, what standards are in place and how are they enforced? Has the doctor any views on whether our border inspection posts are sufficiently manned? Are the related controls adequate?

Dr. Wall

I thank the Deputy. I would need a week to address all the issues raised but I will try to gallop through them as best I can. Under the proposed new legislation from Brussels on food and feed, Ireland will have to develop a comprehensive plan on how it controls the food chain, beginning with animal feed mills.

The Deputy is correct in saying that the major food scares we have had have been linked to contaminated animal feed. BSE was due to contaminated meat and bonemeal. The dioxin scare in Belgium was because animal feed became contaminated with dioxins, and the authorities could not identify where the feed went or the destination of the animals that ate it. The damage done to the Belgian food industry amounted to £1.5 billion. The Ministers for Health and Agriculture had to resign and the Government fell. It was a serious issue, as was the case of pharmaceutical waste entering animal feed. BSE was a feed issue and it highlighted the issue of food safety. We will have to resolve this issue in Ireland because of the national plan we have to produce.

The quality assurance schemes represent a way forward. They stop people talking about mere compliance with the law. We should have quality assurance schemes accredited to international standards, such as the EN450001 standard, and audited by third party auditors so we can be sure each segment of the chain is on the honours paper. That is the approach we need to take if we are to promote Irish produce and if people are to have confidence in Irish products. How can we differentiate Irish products from those from abroad, where they have cheaper production costs and labour? Some of the countries do not have any winter and therefore do not have to worry about feed costs. If people in Europe and the developed world are concerned about food safety we should be making reassurance a marketing tool to make Irish products different.

The Food Safety Authority had a role in advising on nutrition. We did not develop the relevant campaign and we were planning to roll out the idea of healthy eating and behaviour change. However, the function of health promotion advice was taken from the authority and given to the All-Ireland Food Safety Promotion Board. This board was created as part of the Belfast agreement and given a range of functions. The politicians were looking for a non-contentious matter that could be addressed on an all-Ireland basis. Their desire to run public awareness campaigns on food safety and nutrition on an all-Ireland basis makes a lot of sense because it is expensive to undertake such campaigns.

Johne's disease causes chronic enteritis in cattle and Crohn's disease causes chronic enteritis in humans. If a pathologist looked at slides of the two diseases under a microscope, he or she could not tell the difference. The bug that causes the disease in cattle is called mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis. Experts found this bug in humans that have the disease but do not know if there is a causal association. In Finland and Sweden there are people with Crohn's disease, but the cattle herd is not suffering from Johne's disease. The full story is not known but it is a cause of concern and represents a potential scare.

First, we should tackle Johne's disease as an animal health issue. It is found in many high-merit dairy cows. As a result of the depopulation due to BSE, Ireland imported replacements from Holland, where this disease is common and therefore we brought the disease into the country. The problem exists among some of the continental breeds, such as Limousin cattle.

The bug can survive conventional pasteurisation. Therefore, as a precautionary measure, the co-operatives and processors have extended the pasteurisation temperature and time. At this stage, we can only say that Johne's disease is an animal disease and that we should be trying to control it as best we can. Further evidence may emerge that it is a human disease and many medics believe there may be a link with Crohn's disease, but there is not a 100% causal association.

Everybody talks about cheap foreign imports as if they were all dodgy, but that is not the case. As I said earlier, we do not have sole ownership of good standards and many other countries can produce safe food as well. The EU has a food and veterinary office in Grange, County Meath, which is the auditing unit. It audits every non-EU country and before they can import into the EU they have to have standards equivalent to our own. They also audit our own controls. Before any country, such as Thailand or Brazil, sends products to Ireland or elsewhere in the EU, the audit makes sure the products come only from EU-approved premises. Otherwise, cheap, inferior products could enter our markets from abroad.

Significant initiatives are under way in the candidate countries to bring them up to speed. Once they are in the EU there will be no checks and their goods will be moved around freely. The Single Market is the basis of the EU. The job of the food and veterinary office is to audit and check that everybody's standards are equal. We want access to other markets for our produce and we are prepared to have our controls checked by anybody who wants to do so. It is a reciprocal arrangement. The border inspection posts have a right to stop goods that come from outside the EU. In the Single Market, goods move freely, but at the border inspections posts check goods. Not every border inspection post is as diligent as the next but the country that goods come to first clears them. If a product comes to Rotterdam and is cleared, we do not stop it when it comes here. We are relying on the Dutch to do the checking for us.

We have five border inspection posts in Ireland that are approved to take goods from third countries. The food and veterinary office in Grange audits our border inspection posts and they had some criticisms of our controls.

With regard to Dr. Upton's question about trichinosis, I do not know how big a problem that may pose so I would not like to comment. We have many other problems which are more serious. If we deal with everything except trichinosis, we will be doing well.

Deputy Carty

It never ceases to amaze me that in the days when we had less stringent hygiene, not as many people became ill after eating. Are we going forwards or backwards with all these checks? Has people's resistance broken down because of food hygiene? Deputy Upton has asked many of the other questions. We have fears about Thai chicken but we have been assured that the checks are adequate and that it is in the EU that the misdemeanours are taking place. Many small butchers have been closed down yet, when they were operating, there was not as much sickness after eating food. Does the cooking have anything to do with this?

I wonder was the Chairman asleep when Dr. Wall said Grange was in County Dublin, as he did not take exception.

Dr. Wall

I am sorry, Chairman.

Chairman

Do not mind these Mayo men.

Dr. Wall

I accept it is in County Meath.

Food has probably never been safer than it is now yet there is a greater level of anxiety. A farmer said to me at a meeting that he thought food safety is a full-belly trick, meaning that when people were hungry, they were not as worried about food safety. The point is valid that, because of the hygiene, people are exposed to fewer germs and have lesser immunity and are more likely to get sick. There are people I know who cannot be poisoned because they have been exposed to every germ known. There are children who are being dropped and collected from school and their houses are awash with disinfectant and they are rarely exposed to germs. However, we cannot go back. We have germs now that we did not have in the past. E.coli 0157 is a germ that does not give you a mild dose of diarrhoea - it can cause kidney failure and kill you. People say that years ago they drank milk from the cow with no worries. However, this bug did not exist then. We also have bugs that are resistant to up to six antibiotics. They were not around before so there are threats now that did not exist in the past. The Deputy is correct. People have much less immunity now.

People are eating convenience foods in garage forecourts, deli counters etc. and more processed food. People are travelling more taking two holidays a year unless they are farmers and cannot afford it with the hard times. People are eating exotic foods and they look for them when they come home. Nothing is out of season anymore. Supermarkets have food from all over the world. The further food travels, the longer the food chain - there are more players and more opportunities for things to go wrong. We are entrusting food preparation to people other than ourselves because we are eating out more frequently. Small local butchers who select and kill their animals are threatened by a combination of huge supermarkets, central distribution, cheaper product and people buying food en masse. Rules and regulations are hard on small players but there are many other things harder. That is why I supplied the survey of artisans in the information pack. Food safety was not their number one problem. There are huge issues for them, everything from the cost of insurance. Unfortunately, the commercial viability of smaller players is under threat and something must be done because when they are gone, we will not get them back. If people come to Connemara on their holidays, they will want to eat food from Connemara. People do not come to Ireland for the sun. We have a special product. People are fed up with processed food - they want authentic traditional product. We have that and we are probably not making the most of it. The small players are being pushed off the pitch.

In the UK, 80% of all food is sold in four supermarket chains and they are the power-brokers in the food chain and they will source the food anywhere they want where they can get it at the price and quality that is right. It is interesting that in Ireland we have the Groceries Order which limits the size of a supermarket at 30,000 square feet. That is a good thing - we do not have the huge superstores. The candidate countries have a population of 110 million people. This is an opportunity for our producers to gain access to this market. The big supermarket chains have already moved into these countries and they have built the superstores even though people there do not have the disposable income to avail of them; they are in before a groceries order. One of Tesco's biggest stores is in Budapest and is 250,000 square feet. Carrefour are in there along with Aldi and Lidl with huge stores. If our producers want to access these 100 million consumers they will have to go through the supermarkets that are already driving hard bargains with them here and in the British market.

Deputy Wilkinson

I welcome the delegation and thank them for their presentation.

In a country with a history like ours, we should be deeply conscious and thankful that we have so much food today when we think of other times and other people. When we look at our television screens and see what is happening in other parts of the world we should be thankful.

I often wonder about food preparation. We have talked about the farm gate and the supermarket and when we see what is in tins and packets before they are prepared one has to wonder whether they are uncooked, half-cooked or fully-cooked and what to do with quite a lot of what is on supermarket shelves. Considering the high incidence of serious illness and projections that figures will get higher, is there a link between the advent of fast foods - I do not mean fish and chips but the supermarket shelf two-minute dinners - and the level of serious illness?

Dr. Wall

People have never been more aware than they are now about food poisoning and there is a greater likelihood of people reporting it. The figures for food poisoning, despite the intense media interest, have reduced. Salmonella incidence has reduced by 20% every year since 1998. It may be a coincidence that was when the Food Safety Authority was established but I would not like to claim the credit. There was a greater focus from everyone. There are high profile outbreaks which are usually linked to the catering sector. Knowledge of food safety is greater. Kids can surf the Internet but they cannot boil an egg. The Deputy made a point about the preparation of food - that is why we have all this microwaveable food because people do not know how to prepare a meal. There is an issue in getting people to appreciate good food because they are losing that appreciation. We conducted a survey of 800 consumers. A total of 65% of the people surveyed said they would like to buy Irish food - that was interesting - but only 35% said they were prepared to pay more for Irish food. One of the things the public looks for when they go into shops is to buy Irish, but it is subordinate to balancing their budgets. They are looking for value. If only 35% of people are prepared to pay extra for Irish food that is disappointing, but that is what the figures showed.

Deputy Wilkinson

I think Dr. Wall missed my main point. I was not talking about food poisoning or salmonella. I am talking about the higher rate of cancer in the country at present.

Dr. Wall

I apologise. This is a much bigger issue than food poisoning and I take the Deputy's point. The chronic adverse health effects of bad diets mean that a third of all cancers have diet as a cause. A bad diet clogs up our arteries and gives us coronary disease, which is the biggest killer in Ireland. Deputy Timmins mentioned us all being obese. This is a huge issue. We are storing up health problems for the future with all the fast food being eaten by kids. The answer is the same: behavioural change. People would be far better off eating more natural, wholesome food. It is a pity people wait until they have cancer or heart disease before they start to look at their diets.

Deputy Upton asked who was responsible for the health promotion aspect of our work. That is now being done on an all-Ireland basis. The Food Safety Promotion Board is an all-Ireland body and because of political stops and starts it has not really got out of the blocks as quickly as it should. Many people have said to us that we are too focused on food safety. If we want a greater health gain we should focus on nutrition and people's diets.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

Like my colleagues, I thank Dr. Wall for his presentation and express the hope that we will soon have the opportunity of reading the comprehensive documentation he has given us. I congratulate him on the work his authority has been doing in recent years. Many of my questions have been dealt with, but I want to return to the old question of meat imports. There is huge angst out there, particularly among the ranks of the farming community, about the quantity and quality of the meat products that are being imported. According to recent figures, about 20% of the meat we consume is imported. Dr. Wall said that the product had been certified by the EU, but there is huge public confidence in our own meat products due to the work that has been done on animal health regimes, traceability, meat processing, abattoirs and so on. We have closed down many of the family butchers because of what people might call the extreme regulations imposed on them, and there is concern in rural communities about that. All this is to ensure considerable confidence in meat-producing regimes at home.

What level of certainty exists about the quality of these imports. Dr. Wall mentioned Thai chicken and, as someone who is addicted to fast food, I do not think I will ever approach Thai chicken with the same enthusiasm. Could he tell us about the role of the catering industry in serving up these imported meat products? When we go to a restaurant we like to think we are eating Irish beef, lamb or pork, but if we go to a wedding or a function at some of the major hotels in the city, we may find ourselves eating a meat product that could have come from anywhere in the world. If we knew where it came from we might not be as certain about its quality as Dr. Wall seems to be.

Dr. Wall

The chicken I mentioned being pumped with water came from Thailand and Brazil to Holland, which is within the EU. The chicken was all right in Thailand and Brazil but not in Holland. The interesting thing is that the Dutch word for a chicken is kip and the name of the factory was Superkip, so it was well named. We import a lot of chicken, and it is very difficult for our producers to compete with the imports because they are cheap. We are not self-sufficient in chicken. It is a trade issue. As I said, the FVO auditors audit the standards of the chicken that is imported, much of which is designated for the catering sector. Last year we imported 40,000 tonnes of pig meat, much of which was backs and loins. There is no tradition of eating rashers in Holland or Denmark so it was sent to Ireland. Dutch and Danish bacon is of a high standard, but it is all about price.

We export 500,000 tonnes of beef every year. We want access to everybody else's market but selected cuts are coming here. We imported 15,000 tonnes at the same time, 4,500 tonnes of which came from outside the EU. It is not a huge amount compared to the amount we export. On the domestic market we have striploins and topside from Argentina and Brazil. I have never been to Argentina or Brazil, but from talking to people who have I hear that the abattoirs are huge and the labour costs are low. In fact, we have Argentinean and Brazilian butchers working in some of our abattoirs, so they are actually skilled butchers. They do not have the winters our farmers have, so they have much lower overheads. I have enough to do inspecting premises in Ireland through our contract arrangement, so I must take the word of the FVO inspectors that the standards are high.

I do not know the answer. I have a green jersey on like everybody else, and I would love to be able to say the Irish people are loyal to our own producers because if we do not eat our own food, the producers will be gone and it will be too late. We are in this global village and it is beyond the remit of the FSA to control the free movement of goods. I have not answered the Deputy's question, but the key to the whole Single Market is that all standards must be equal. Every member state now has a food safety authority policing its standards and Commissioner Byrne has created a pan-European agency to ensure that the standards are equivalent in each country. There is no point in our pushing up standards if we then allow inferior stuff to come in from the outside. The Food and Veterinary Office in County Meath is crucial. We are depending on it to ensure the food coming from abroad is of an equivalent standard.

We have to look and decide what is special about our product. How can we compete with what is coming in? If it is competing on price, how can we differentiate our products? Animal welfare is an issue. Every farmer in Ireland is his own stock man, which is different from other countries, where the farms are large and they have managers. We have traditional production systems. Our farmers are not getting any premium for the difference between their product and imports because it is not highlighted. The marketing is not there. I do not know all the issues, but that is the difficulty.

The Department of Agriculture and Food tests products in the whole country. We cannot target imports. We must test all products for hormones. We cannot single out imports because we would be creating tariffs and barriers to trade and it would start a trade war. The testers work on domestic and imported product in weighted proportions. We have 300 phone calls a month to the FSA's help line, but we have not had any complaints about people falling ill after eating foreign beef. In the survey, if people are told that something is locally sourced they assume it is Irish. That is misleading. If a restaurant or hotel advertises locally sourced meat, it may have bought it from a gentleman who has bought it from Argentina. We have an initiative, Féile Bia, whereby hotels and restaurants stock Irish produce. I do not have the answers: somebody from An Bord Bia or the Department of Agriculture and Food could do better. We are trying our best to drive standards up and make Irish produce special.

There is no labelling requirement in the catering sector, and that is a weakness. There is no legislation to force the catering sector to label the food. It is a requirement to label beef in shops: packets must be labelled with the country of origin, but there is no legislation to require people in the catering sector to label their product and that is where much of the imported food is going. Striploins are being sold to carverys in pubs and hotels at a third of the price at which our farmers can produce them.

This document produced by the Department of Agriculture and Food contains the position of the Irish Meat Association on origin labelling. The association did not want labelling in the catering sector because it would then happen to Irish meat in other countries and it felt we would lose out in other countries. It is a pity we could not stand over Irish meat and have a brand like "Baileys Beef" or "Kerrygold Beef" so that people would recognise our produce and we would get a premium from it rather than just selling it is as commodity product.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I welcome Dr. Wall and thank him for his presentation. I know how innovative and fair he is in the area of food safety.

A number of strains of salmonella affects humans, such as salmonella dublin and 1058 salmonella. How will this affect the industry? What procedures exist at the point of entry for meat imports at major ports such as Dublin, Rosslare and Cork? When we export meat, Irish carriers go through rigorous inspections at Dover as they pass through on their way to the Continent and are often turned back if their trucks are not properly sealed. A carrier came to me to complain about such behaviour. I would like to know how Dr. Wall's staff act at points of entry. Are there regular controls in those places?

Packed foodstuffs often carry a vague label stating where they were packed. One large multiple states that it packs meat in Northern Ireland and in Dublin. It should be more precise. The country of origin of all beef products should be stated on a label. That will not affect our product because we have the best beef in the world for quality and flavour, but we do not exploit it enough. We should be in the retail sector rather than the catering area. We are missing out. Our beef has unique marbling. That is not the case with Brazilian beef because of the breeds of cattle and the feeds. The catering sector has not been fair to Irish farmers in terms of the product it is procuring. Féile Bia has not been a success. We should market it more. Féile Bia is not even used here in the Oireachtas.

I wish Dr. Wall well in his endeavours to keep food safe. Irish farmers do a great job.

Dr. Wall

There are 2,200 strains of salmonella but only a few cause major public health concerns. Salmonella enteritidis is a strain that is specific to poultry and we are fortunate that we have managed to eradicate it in laying hens in Ireland. It exists in the ovary duct so the hen lays eggs that are contaminated. Irish eggs with the quality assured mark are salmonella free and that is unique. We have the safest eggs in the world. This strain of salmonella is also found in poultry meat in broiler chickens.

There is another strain of salmonella in Ireland, salmonella typhimurium. This strain is found in chickens and turkeys but in Ireland it is predominantly in the pig herd. Denmark is attempting to eradicate this strain and 97% of the pig herd there is salmonella free. We are heading in that direction and there are Irish farms that are salmonella free. There are others which have a small problem and some with a major problem.

Outbreaks have been linked to cooked ham. People ask how this can happen because cooking should kill the bug. A small processor might have some controls in place for food safety but it is like a pub having bouncers. Two bouncers might be able to handle ten thugs, but they could not handle 500. If the meat comes in hopping with bacteria, the whole place gets aerosolised and it will break through the controls. The Department of Agriculture and Food is introducing an aggressive salmonella control programme across the national pig herd because one third of farmers have demonstrated they can achieve salmonella-free status.

Salmonella Dublin exists in cattle. It does not break through to humans often but when it does it causes serious problems because 26% of the strain moves from the human gut into the blood and causes blood poisoning.

The border inspection posts are the responsibility of the Departments of Agriculture and Food and Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. In the first contacts we had to co-ordinate food safety we did not gain control of those inspection posts and we only took on supervision of the posts in January. There are document checks and exactly the same things happen as happen to our products going abroad. All invoices are checked for produce coming through and a proportion is sampled and sent to the laboratory for analysis.

The Deputy's point about labelling is valid. If a label says meat was packed by Tesco Ireland in Dublin, it was packed there, but it could have been produced anywhere.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I was making the point that there are packaging sites in Belfast and Dublin. I have seen that on the labels of a major retail multiple. They do not state the country of origin.

Dr. Wall

There are three issues in food safety. First, we must ensure public health is protected. That is our primary role. We also make sure people are not ripped off, defrauded or misled - we protect the consumers' interests. Finally we protect the reputation of Ireland as a food island. We concentrate most on the first of those roles.

The document on food labelling produced by the Department is worth reading. It contains a recommendation from the Irish Meat Association that, pending a change in the existing labelling arrangements, and to avoid further damage being done to Irish beef and lamb exports, the introduction of origin labelling for products sold to the catering sector should be deferred. This document was published by the Department, not the Food Safety Authority of Ireland.

Deputy Upton

I looked at the survey of pork and bacon premises and traceability. The point made there is that the main criterion for traceability is one step back and one step forward. Is that adequate given the comments about a person buying produce from a third party? The other point has been addressed recently by the authority and concerns incident management and the possibility of terrorism, which we hope will not happen. Does the authority think that producers and supermarkets are adequately informed and up to speed on the potential in that regard?

Dr. Wall

The issue of a bio-terrorism incident is an extreme concern only but any sort of contamination incident could happen. The authority was involved with the different parties in putting together a plan and we are now working on simulated exercises at a national level. If a boat load of dioxin contaminated dairy meal came into Drogheda and got into dairy feed in Ireland, there would be a question mark hanging over Baileys liqueurs and Kerrygold butter. The panic that occurred in Belgium might occur here, and that was the scenario which prompted the Department of Agriculture and Food to get the different players involved in food safety and promotion together. Consumer health and the Irish reputation would be challenged and we are addressing that issue at national, regional and company levels.

The Food Safety Authority has produced recall and traceability procedures for companies. Many people think that the authority created traceability to regulate poor unfortunates trying to make a living. However, it is in the interests of businesses in differentiating their products. Carton Brothers in Monaghan have the name of the farmer written on each chicken - for example, Paddy Malone, Newbliss, County Monaghan. I do not know Paddy Malone and he may be a decent man but his name is on the packet. When there was a scare concerning Dutch chickens, the consumption of branded chickens grew because people had confidence that they were produced to a code of practice. That company used traceability to differentiate its products and get market advantage.

Another example of traceability is the reduction of business risk. A situation arose where a child in England was sick with botulism from a formula baby food manufactured in Ireland. If the company had not been able to pinpoint the particular batch and its ingredients, and recall them, the Food Safety Authority would have had to close the whole company. Traceability helped the company to protect its brand.

In addition, traceability is an issue for food safety. We are trying to get people to implement traceability because it is an advantage for businesses to have it rather than because the authority is forcing them to do it. One back and one up is what the legislation is saying, and that is what it is.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Wall and his colleagues for attending the committee. It has been a very interesting discussion and members are very happy with the delegation's responses to their questions. The information is valuable and I thank the delegation for the documentation provided. Getting time to read it is the most important thing and perhaps the authority will come up with that diet for members on the next occasion we meet.

Dr. Wall

Thank you. If there are any issues arising from the meeting, members should contact us.

Chairman

We will suspend for two minutes.

Sitting suspended at 5.24 p.m. and resumed at 5.27 p.m.