Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate

Youth Perspectives on the Circular Economy and COP27, including Climate Justice and Energy: Discussion

Acting Chairperson (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

The meeting will commence in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputies Alan Farrell, Bríd Smith and Whitmore. As Deputy Leddin is unable to attend this meeting, he has asked me to stand in for him and I am delighted and honoured to do so. I am also a member of the committee. The purpose of today's meeting is to hear from the witnesses and engage with them, particularly on some of the key issues around the circular economy and COP27, including climate justice and energy. We have representatives here from Youth Work Ireland, UNICEF Ireland and the Irish Second-Level Students Union, ISSU, along with Ms Latisha McCrudden of St. Brendan's College, who we also are delighted to have. I thank them all for coming here today.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, Senator Mark Daly, with whom we have had many conversations about this important day. We are delighted to have the witnesses here in the Seanad Chamber. This is the second such event. Senator Mark Daly is passionate about the issues around climate action and will make a few opening remarks.

Senator Mark Daly

I thank the Acting Chairperson. It is great to have my colleague from Seanad Éireann and the leader of the Green Party grouping in it chairing this session. I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, who is setting aside time from his busy schedule to be here. Former President Mary Robinson, who sat in this Chamber for 20 years, has been a voice on this issue for many years. She has been a voice for people in Ireland and all over the world because climate action and climate justice affect us all every day and we all can play a part in making sure the worst outcomes of climate change do not continue to hit those who can least afford them. We see that in the Horn of Africa at this moment in time. People are dying as a result of the impacts of climate change.

I welcome the members of the committee, both those who are familiar with Seanad Éireann like Senator Boylan, those who are Deputies, namely, Deputies O'Rourke, Devlin and Cronin. Deputies are always welcome in Seanad Éireann, although most of them are trying to avoid it as best they can. If ever they do find themselves here, they will always be most welcome.

I thank those young people who have joined us today from UNICEF Ireland, Youth Work Ireland and the ISSU. I thank them for taking the time for their submissions and considerations. Regarding their call for action here today, as Mary Robinson said, it must be an everyday conversation. This is not a problem for the future. It is a problem for now and a problem that needs solving on an industrial scale. We are all following Greta Thunberg. The Seanad was always a place for minority voices. That is why it was set up. It was set up 100 years ago to give the unionist community, which found itself a minority in a new state, a platform. That has changed over time but we still have minority voices in Seanad Éireann. Greta Thunberg talked about the need for Notre Dame-type thinking because when the Notre Dame cathedral went on fire, the whole world reacted and millions were put into the restoration of one building. That amount of money could bring about huge change for people affected by climate change and give them climate justice because they are the ones doing the least amount of damage to the environment, yet they are the ones being impacted the most. Greta Thunberg was one of those sole voices who protested outside parliament.

We have opened up Seanad Éireann to young people like the witnesses, to listen to their voices and make sure a sole voice becomes the voice of many. We are delighted that they are some of the many we want to listen to. I thank the Acting Chair for bringing this to Seanad Éireann.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank the Senator. I am also delighted we can have the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, at today's meeting. He will start off by saying a few words to the committee and the young witnesses, and we will hear from the witnesses after that.

Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

I am very glad to be here in this august Chamber, which we always look forward to coming into. I love the armchairs, the comfort and the splendour. We do not have the same celestial ceiling above us in our own humble Chamber down the road. I am very glad to be here to to give some reflections and then to listen, more than anything else. I would reflect on the summer just gone by or even recent weeks. I was in the Dáil Chamber yesterday and one Deputy made a point that there has been flooding in Thurles for the third time in several years. The rain was heavier than anything previous so the storm surge joined with the wastewater system and sewage came up through the manholes and flooded the town again. That is just one example. Across the world, even as we speak, there are climate events hitting home now. That became very clear in a variety of ways this summer. In India there were temperatures above 40°C for over a month and 70% less rain. In the neighbouring country of Pakistan, a third of the country flooded.

The climate crisis is connected to the biodiversity and pollution crises. A recent analysis shows that we have lost 70% of wildlife. These things are connected. A fracturing ecosystem will make it even more difficult for us to cope with the climate change that is coming. I was in Berlin last week at a climate justice event involving Professor Johan Rockström from the Potsdam Institute, which is probably one of the best climate research institutes in the world. He had a simple graph that showed that within 50 years, there will be large swathes of the world, in South America, Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan and India, where the annual average temperatures will be above 30°C. The simple fact he presented was that this will directly impact habitability and the health of people. This summer has been a wake-up call.

The Acting Chair mentioned Greta Thunberg. She recently wrote an article for the New Statesman in which she rightly excoriated the political system for not responding to this crisis and for what she calls greenwashing, where people talk it up but do not really deliver. She speaks for a lot of younger people. For me, in 50 years' time it will be my children and their children who have to manage that, but for the young people here today they are going to have to manage this in their lifetime. I can understand the anger behind that. I only saw Ms Thunberg speak once, at a COP meeting in Madrid some years ago. She said in the article the same thing she said at that meeting. She said she was a democrat and that, even though she is critical of the political system, she believes and recognises that the only just, fair and sustainable way of responding to this is through democratic systems. It is not the only way but it is the best. I agree with her on that. That is why the witnesses' presence here in our institutions is important. There has been some progress in this the last five to seven years, particularly in the way we have used citizens' assemblies. The democratic system does not just have to be these two Chambers. It can and must be a participative democratic system. The Citizens' Assembly on Climate Change, which was six or seven years ago now, did a very useful job in presenting the evidence and coming up with recommendations. That led to the structures we have put in place, the climate law and the climate action plans we have. They are rooted in that.

It is appropriate to be here on a Friday because in that intervening period, every single Friday outside the gates here we saw the Fridays for Future school strikes. Sometimes there were small numbers and sometimes huge. That is part of the democratic system. It is about the engagement in protest, being there, turning up and taking the space to have your voice heard. That Fridays for Future movement played a huge role, not just because of Greta Thunberg but the people here, in influencing the political democratic response in this Republic. I would just like to mark and recognise that. That translates into so many different things. We could talk about energy, transport or food. What the democratic institutions and structures do is translate that imperative and ambition into law, into a budget and resources, including human resources and staffing for local authorities and elsewhere.

I will finish with two other reflections. In our response, in reducing our emissions and managing the adaptation we are going to have to do, the biggest thing we have to do is mobilise ourselves as people. In my area at the moment, the biggest shortage is in people to do the work. We need to get the training and the skills right and develop the skills and apprenticeships. In agriculture, it is about getting a whole generation of young people to go into farming and forestry. It is a question of how we make that pay and make it viable so you can have a rewarding prospect of raising a family when running a farm. That is our focus. We can sometimes get caught up in all the technical aspects but it is about how we can inspire people to take on the work that needs to be done.

When trying to get people to do certain work or to switch their habits and change what they are buying or doing, we should not be guilt-tripping them about doing the right thing, buying the right thing or whether they drive or not. That will not work. People have to be inspired but we also have to change the systems so it is easier for people to do the right thing. We should change the educational system so it is easy for people to develop the necessary skills and find career opportunities. If we put all the pressure and responsibility on what individuals do, it will not work. It is about changing the system so it is easier for us all to make this leap and change. That is what the democratic system is charged with doing. Society has to organise itself to allocate the resources to change the systems. We are part of this transition. We will inspire each other by focusing on the fact that these new systems have to have social justice at their core. We need to be living in a natural world that is wonderful, beautiful and sustainable and raises our spirits, as well as dealing with the practical realities of the climate challenge we face. I look forward to hearing what others have to say. I thank the Acting Chair for this special committee hearing.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank the Minister. He mentioned the Citizens' Assembly. We should recognise that while we have done huge work as a committee, and we have done huge work in the Seanad and Dáil in passing an ambitious climate Act, that started with activists and with the citizens who gave the recommendations. It is appropriate that we hear from citizens on an ongoing basis.

As the Minister said, the challenge is not only about setting the target. The challenge is meeting that target. We all have to work together to do that. It is not going to be easy but it is absolutely essential. In my part of the country, Galway, we have a piece of artwork that shows at what level the water will be if we do not act. It is a visual representation that is helpful to everybody. It is also important, however, that we continue to hear from young people in our daily lives.

I wish to recognise the other members of the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action who are here to listen today. They will come in and contribute later. What has been fantastic about this committee is that we worked in a cross-party and genuine way because irrespective of which party we are from, we are all really passionate about climate action and the environment. I am the chair of the Green Party and Deputy Leddin is also a member of the party but members from most of the political parties will make statements today. Without further ado, we will hear from the young people. Ms Doireann Walsh from Youth Work Ireland has the floor.

Ms Doireann Walsh

I wish the Acting Chairman, committee members and fellow young people a good morning. My name is Doireann Walsh and I am 15 years old. I am a third-year student at St. Brogan's College in Bandon, County Cork, and I am involved with Youth Work Ireland through the youth participation panel.

Climate change is one of the most significant issues facing young people today, not only in Ireland but across the world. Climate change is also something about which I am very passionate. In fact, last year, I won the junior climate change award at the ECO-UNESCO Young Environmentalist Awards alongside two of my friends.

Today, I would like to take a look at how climate change affects society and what is being done to help. In the past couple of years, we have seen temperatures rise and new record temperatures being recorded, like how the Phoenix Park weather station saw its hottest ever temperature of 33°C, which is 8°C hotter than its long-term average. The Met Office in the UK had to issue its first ever red weather warning for heat with temperatures reaching up to 40°C in some areas. This is no coincidence and is down to a group of gases called greenhouse gases. They trap heat in the atmosphere and warm the planet. Over time, as a society, we have become more industrialised and, as humans, we have emitted more greenhouse gases than ever before. The heat that is trapped by gases is pushed back down into the earth and makes the surface hotter.

The gradual trend of increasing temperatures is incredibly dangerous for humans. Young children and elderly adults do not fare well in hot temperatures and this type of weather can also cause wildfires. Climate change is also the cause of more often and extreme weather conditions such as hurricanes and extreme rainfall, which causes flooding and blocks access to clean water and electricity. Warm air can hold more water so a hotter earth can also cause more rain to fall.

There is a way to help slow the effects of climate change, however. There needs to be a large focus on renewable energy and less reliance on fossil fuels. When fossil fuels are burned they produce carbon dioxide, which is a greenhouse gas. Renewable energy is a better alternative because it uses resources that can be replenished faster such as sunlight or wind. There is the carbon tax on fossil fuels, which has been in place since 2010 and has seen an increase in each budget. There are also grants from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, for buying an electric vehicle or getting solar panels installed. Although it is great to see measures like this put in place, one thing I would really like to see would be a new law providing that all houses built from 2024 onwards need to have solar panels installed and that from 2030, all houses, including those built before 2024, will need to have solar panels installed. I hope the global community can continue working together to combat climate change and leave a prosperous earth for future generations. I thank members for listening to me today.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Thank you so much, Doireann, and well done. We will now hear from Ms Aisling Maloney, who is also from Youth Work Ireland.

Ms Aisling Maloney

I wish the Acting Chairman, committee members and fellow young people a good morning. I extend my thanks and gratitude to the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action and Youth Work Ireland for giving me the invitation to speak today to give the youth perspective on today’s issues for discussion. My name is Aisling Maloney and I am a law with politics student in University College Dublin, UCD. I come from rural Offaly, and I am an activist. I am involved with Youth Work Ireland through its youth participation panel, although I have been a long-time member of the organisation.

I have been involved in climate action since I was in primary school and my involvement in the movement since has remained constant throughout both my second level and third level education. I have been involved with groups such as Green-Schools, Youth Work Ireland, the National Youth Council of Ireland, ECO-UNESCO, the climate ambassadors of An Taisce and the European Climate Pact ambassadors. My involvement in each of those groups has broadened my understanding of climate change and what needs to be done to mitigate its effects.

I stand before the committee today not just as a climate activist, but as a young woman from a low socioeconomic background. While I believe wholeheartedly that the climate movement is working towards a better future for our generation and the next, I cannot deny that it can be unaffordable at times. People such as me who come from low-income backgrounds simply cannot afford to choose the sustainable options. With the existing stigma around going to second-hand shops or clothes swaps like the one in which I found my current outfit, these families are left with little other option than to go to the more affordable fast-fashion outlets for their clothes as they simply cannot afford to buy from sustainable clothing brands on a regular basis, especially when it comes to young children who outgrow their clothes quickly.

Furthermore, we are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. The young people of our country are struggling. They cannot afford to worry about climate change and shopping sustainably when they are already worrying about affording next month’s rent, struggling to pay their student fees or even finding somewhere to live for the duration of their education. More needs to be done in terms of a just transition so that everyone can be able to access the climate movement and make the necessary changes in their lives if this country has any hope of reaching the targets set out by the sustainable development goals.

I am seeking more support for young people and those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds to enable them to access the climate movement and make their lives more sustainable. Initiatives like more affordable public transport have already made a difference to the lives of students, who are more likely to choose the sustainable option of public transport for their commute to class than driving there themselves. This initiative needs to be extended to more people and more initiatives like this need to be put in place, especially in rural areas where public transport networks are lacking and other sectors. If this country truly wishes to make a contribution to climate action and move towards a sustainable future, then everyone must be brought on board and given adequate support to do so. Nobody should be left behind. I thank all members for taking the time today to hear our views.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Thank you very much, Aisling. My outfit is also from a second-hand shop. Mr. Leo Galvin, also from Youth Work Ireland, is next.

Mr. Leo Galvin

Gabhaim buíochas libh, a chairde go léir, leis an gCathaoirleach Gníomhach agus le baill an Chomhchoiste um Chomhshaol agus Ghníomhú ar son na hAeráide as teacht anseo inniu. My name is Leo Galvin and it is an honour to speak before the committee once more. I am here representing Youth Work Ireland and during my statement, I hope to leave members with a few points for their consideration.

I have previously witnessed some amazing contributions at this committee and heard some truly attainable and practical solutions for national issues in the areas of the circular economy and climate justice. Today, I have been asked to represent the views of young people on issues such as the 27th United Nations Climate Change Conference, COP27, energy and climate, as have my colleagues beside me.

Young people will support each other and those who value them. Throughout the world, we have seen youth climate strikes for the common good. Young people have come out in a majority to support an end to global warming. By supporting each other across continents and cultural divides, young people and adults alike, as a whole, support an end to climate change.

It is almost certain that the people of Ireland were overjoyed to see the enthusiastic efforts of almost the entire Irish Executive during COP26 in Glasgow. Supporting the Glasgow outcome was a wonderful measure to follow up on promises, along with the phasing down of coal and the promises regarding the Santiago Network.

Over the course of the last year, however, other priorities have taken hold of the world, such as the war in Ukraine, the cost-of-living crisis, the energy crisis. Many other incredibly important and costly priorities are taking a toll on people and have a cost in time. As young people, we stand in solidarity with people in Ukraine, Iran and any other countries where young people face prosecution for expressing their rights, including the right to freely express themselves. Even though there are crises in the world, climate should remain a central topic. Young people have been campaigning and fighting for stricter measures to control climate change and it is now rising on the political agenda.

I am certain young people would not like to see something so important fall from mainstream politics. That is why I applaud this committee for its continued engagement with young people and invigorating efforts regarding climate action and the environment.

COP27 will invariably see many of these topics discussed, with the main focus seemingly to be put towards Africa and the finance question, namely, the pledge to fund developing nations and how they would be funded, especially since COP26, where doubling the financial contributions to these developing nations was agreed under the Glasgow pact. I understand that as a country we are one that focuses on helping others and I fully believe that the Government is a reflection of the people it was elected by. It can be seen foremost in the general population of Ireland that was estimated to have given €1.2 billion to charity in 2018. However, the focus of Ireland during this conference should be placed inward. Ireland was fined €450 million for missing the 2020 carbon emission reduction deadlines and current projections state we may not meet our 2030 emission targets. Therefore, while the finance question is being discussed and the elements of mandated transparency are conducted at COP27, Ireland should also take a look at home and think of what we need to do as young people, as adults and as people so that we may reach and uphold our climate action plan.

The three main aims of the Paris Agreement are well known. They are to keep the global temperature from rising above the 2°C mark, to increase adaptability so that it does not affect food supply and to focus finance toward more climate-friendly developments. It is likely that it has been mentioned before but allowing new homes in Ireland to still be built with fossil fuel-powered heaters is not right. There are many alternatives to using fossil fuel-powered heaters and it is a matter of letting the public know more about these options and making them more accessible. Alternatives for oil in oil heaters, heat pumps and improvements to the retrofitting grant could help with these things. Agriculture is one of the hardest questions to answer in Ireland. As a country we are reliant on our own domestic agriculture. We care for farmers and most of us can empathise with them. We most certainly do not want to jeopardise our food supply and therefore we must offset agriculture emissions in some way.

Behind every problem regarding the climate are people. To solve the issue of global warming and climate change, a compassionate and community-driven response needs to be made. Young activists are people who want to see a bright future for every person. The same can be said about any person who runs for elected office or works in the public sphere. We all look for action to stop climate change but the recognition needs to be there that there are people everywhere affected by these actions and we need to keep these repercussions to a minimum. The tough question is how. It is certainly a question the committee is considering.

What I ask to be considered for COP27 is in line with the vision and mission set out by the COP27 presidency, namely, for implementation plans to be considered, for pilot activities and practices to lead the way and for a just transition to take place in the move from high- to low-emission infrastructure. An idea initiated by people young, old and in between in the interest of the future and young people and promoted around the globe is a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty. It would be a call to phase out fossil fuels in legislation and to be legally bound to removing fossil fuels and providing a just transition to all people. Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine. Gabhaim buíochas le gach éinne.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Leo. Next we have Ms Molly Hickey, who is also from Youth Work Ireland.

Ms Molly Hickey

Good morning to the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, committee members and my fellow young people. I am a first-year college student involved with Youth Work Ireland through the youth participation panel. I am mainly going to be talking about my view on the circular economy here in Ireland.

I begin by pointing out that when we look at our circular economy and how we want to improve it, we need to look at education. More education should be provided in schools on terms like "circular economy" but also online and in the workshops for people who are out of education, because nobody can be isolated from this as it is too important for that to be allowed happen. One might ask why this is important? It is important because when I looked at the term first, I had no idea what it meant, which really upset me because how can we expect people to contribute to having a circular economy in Ireland if people do not even know what it is? To be honest, we cannot and what does that lead to? It leads to more unsustainable single-use products being created, instead of better and more sustainable products that will last longer.

This brings me to my next point. We need to educate more people on how to recycle their waste. Members are probably thinking we have definitely moved past that but we have not. Recently, I was talking to people living in my local community and they brought up a concern with me about how they did not know our recycling methods, as they are international students coming into our country, which has different recycling methods than back in their home. These people have not been shown our process of recycling waste, which results in it not being done properly and thereby contributing to more and more waste. This is a simple change that can make a huge difference and help our country to reduce its waste.

Taking all this into account, we need to look at our circular economy. We need to look at more ways we can make better products that will last longer and reduce single-use plastic to stop wasting our resources. One major way this can be done is by adding more reusable water stations in public areas. Our problem with single-use plastic is not just because people cannot be bothered using reusable bottles. It is because there are not the resources for people to use them. For example, the other day I brought my reusable water bottle that I have with me here on a day trip, but unfortunately I still had to buy a plastic one because I had nowhere to refill it when it ran out and I needed water, which is of course an essential. This is sad, this is ridiculous and most of all this is unsustainable.

With COP27 taking place next month, these are simple but crucial things that need to be considered. What is the point of us young people trying to make changes if we do not have the support to do them? I thank everyone very much for listening to what I have to say today.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Thank you so much Molly. Next we have Ms Latisha McCrudden from St. Brendan’s College.

Ms Latisha McCrudden

I say hello to my peers, members of the general public and Members of the Houses. I am a student in St. Brendan’s College and also a representative of the Irish Traveller Movement. I am here to discuss my viewpoint on climate change and the environment and what I think can be done to implement a positive change on climate change and to help protect the environment for my generation but most of all, for the future generations of all our families that are here today. Not a day goes by now when there is not some reference to climate change and its impact on us in the news. This problem has been a bone of contention in recent years and is tormenting and eroding the world. There have been natural disasters since the Stone Age but the impact of climate change on the different communities of the world has risen dramatically and now the problem is the urgent crisis of our age.

One of the first topics that I would like to express my opinion on is the education being provided to our young generations, who are the future of our world today, around the topic of climate change and the environment. In the majority of secondary schools across the country, geography has become a subject students can choose in the junior cycle. This was not the case before and it was a mandatory subject for young adolescents, in which they could learn about the topic of climate change and the environment, which is such a crisis today. How do we expect anything to change with the problems we are facing today when our future generations are being given inadequate education on the topic? Ní thagann ciall roimh aois. Actions speak louder than words, ní bheireann an chaint an móin abhaile, so why would it make sense to make geography a non-mandatory subject? It needs to be at least studied until students are ready to advance to senior cycle in secondary school. Our Government, which has control over our country, must put the necessary adjustments in place in order that geography is a mandatory subject until you have completed your junior cycle. Our young people will then have the required knowledge needed on these subjects, such as their carbon footprint, so they can implement this knowledge into their everyday living and hope to see a positive impact on both climate change and the environment.

As I am still a pupil in secondary school and will be sitting my leaving certificate in June 2023, I would like to express my opinion on another topic around primary and secondary schools throughout the country, as this age bracket can be such a force to make a positive impact on the crisis around climate change and the environment. The Government needs to put more emphasis and funding into the Green-Schools programme so every school around the country, primary and secondary, is participating in this programme. The truth is bitter, bíonn an fhírinne searbh, but it has to be told. Imagine all the schools across the entire country working on a programme over an eight-year period with each year trying to fulfil the requirements to achieve a Green-Schools flag under topics such as litter and waste, energy, water, travel, biodiversity and global citizenship. The enormous amount of impact that would have on the country would be indescribable and would all come from a student body ranging from the ages of 14 to 19 years of age, with the help of educated teachers on this topic. In my school alone, a few examples include the use of only biodegradable plates, knives and forks; recycling; switching off of electronic devices so power is only being used when a device is in operation; the installation of a bike shelter and non-filtered taps in the school for the refilling of water bottles. The issue with climate change and the environment would decrease dramatically as you would not only have every school in the country falling under those headlines but students of the school could also implement these changes in their households at home.

As a third suggestion, farmers who opt to grow organic products only should be given higher subsidies and funding from the Government than those who do not. I say this because the production of these farm chemicals is energy-intensive. Studies show that limiting synthetic nitrogen fertilisers alone, as required in organic systems, could lower direct global agriculture greenhouse emissions by 20%. Soil-boosting practices that are the foundation of organic agriculture also help sequester more carbon in soil compared with non-organic systems. Multi-median analysis comparing thousands of farms nationwide has shown that organic agriculture results in higher stable soil organic carbon and reduces nitrous oxide, N2O, emissions compared with conventional farming. As farmers grapple with everything from extreme weather events to heat stress and wildfires and as agriculture becomes even less predictable in the face of changing climate, it is essential for governments to help farmers transition to practices that increase resilience and dramatically decrease reliance on fossil fuel-based chemicals.

Finally, I will look at what we as a nation can do. The majority of problems around climate change are well and truly documented and accepted at this point. It is now about what the people in power and those with the funding required should do to help our country in need. First, grants for alternative energy sources and retrofitting of houses to make them more energy efficient should be accessible to the citizens. At the moment, to fully retrofit a house for energy efficiency and to obtain a full grant from the SEAI, the householder must spend over €50,000. This is not affordable to most families. Everyone in Ireland is experiencing the increased cost of living and running a home today. People are concerned about turning on their heat due to the cost of electricity today. While this may be good for the environment, it is not good for the health and well-being of people, especially those who are less well off who have to sit in the cold for long periods. Instead of subsidies for fuel and electricity bills, why not develop and improve more solar wind and tidal energy sources and make it less expensive for householders to insulate their home? This would make keeping homes warmer more affordable, as well as reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. Is fearr go mall ná go brách.

Footpaths and cycle lanes in the country are not up to the quality that we as pedestrians and cyclists deserve. The Government must act on this and provide the funding required, especially where I am from in the west, where it is very dangerous. A life can be taken if someone chooses to walk or cycle instead of releasing greenhouse gases into our atmosphere by driving a car. Figures from 2021 show that more pedestrians and cyclists were killed on our roads than passengers in car collisions throughout the year. Pathways and cycle lanes are just not good enough and something has to be done about it. Better pathways and cycle lanes will encourage more people to take this form of transport instead of a car, which in return reduces individual carbon footprints and allows for our atmosphere to receive less greenhouse gases and fossil fuels. Cuireadh gach rud ar an méar fhada agus bhí an mhéar fhada róghearr dá bharr.

I hope that at the age of 18 and speaking here today, my points of view on climate change and on the environment, as a girl who has been interested in and devoted time to this subject since being a first-year student, can be taken notice of and that some action can be taken. We all here have something in common: our home. It is Ireland. It is up to us what we do with it. There is no place like home. Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin. Without action, our home will deteriorate due to the crisis of climate change and the effect it is having on our atmosphere. I never knew exactly the issues, crises and work that went into climate change until a past teacher of mine, Una Redmond, gave me the knowledge on the subject, for which I am truly grateful. I advise everyone here today to learn more about climate change and what we can do as human being to help in a minor and immense way. Gabhaim buíochas leis na comhaltaí as éisteacht liom. Tá súil agam go bhfuair siad eolas agus go bhfuil a bhfios acu anois cad is féidir leo a dhéanamh.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Latisha; well done. I now call on Jessica Dunne of UNICEF Ireland.

Ms Jessica Dunne

Táim an-bhuíoch don choiste as an tacaíocht chun óráid a thabhairt dóibh. I am a climate activist and today I am here not just for the young people growing up in the face of this crisis but for everyone who is suffering as a result of climate change today and every person who feels we need to do better, nationally and globally. Ireland has always been a country that has punched above its weight. Despite being a small nation, independent for just over a century, we have become a major player in many ways and not least in the climate sphere.

In 2002, Ireland became one of the first countries to put a tariff on the purchase of plastic bags, which has reduced our use of these bags by 90%. The proactiveness that Ireland displayed with this tariff is something that is desperately needed in the face of this crisis. Sadly, we seem to have entered a time where policies are marked by little major change. With COP27 on the horizon, I would like to look at how we are dealing with this crisis and how we can better be leaders in the climate sphere working towards a greener future.

Since 2019, I have organised strikes, worked in education and campaigned for various climate policies. I find that with each passing year, it becomes harder to be hopeful about our situation and harder to have faith in our decision-makers. I remember in May 2019, when the Irish Government declared a climate emergency, there was a sense of hope among us activists and a sense that this would surely be the beginning of a new chapter for Ireland where we treated the climate crisis with the urgency that it required. Unfortunately, in the years since, we have seen climate action plans that failed to commit to radical solutions and a repeated failure to meet our targets. In 2021 alone, Ireland purchased 1.4 million carbon credits. This purchase of credits is a way to save face while we continually fail to reduce our emissions. This attitude toward the carbon emission reduction targets seems blatantly careless. There is a sense that the Government believes that if we do not meet our targets, we can simply buy ourselves out of the consequences. Our current unwillingness to disrupt business as usual has led us to pour millions into these carbon credits, instead of using this money to invest in green infrastructure and renewable energies. Instead of working towards solutions, it seems that we are only buying time.

In November, many of those present will be travelling to Sharm el-Sheikh for COP27. Twenty-seven times we have met with the rest of the world to discuss solutions to this crisis and what do we have to show for that? Last year, attending COP26 I felt this sense of urgency and a sense that while little had resulted from previous years, change out to come out of this Conference of the Parties, COP. We were coming out of a global pandemic in which global leaders had learned at first hand how to deal with the crisis of urgency and with only eight years before irreversible climate change set in, it seemed that it was time for action. Out of that COP, we got the lacklustre commitment to the phasing down of fossil fuels. We got Jeff Bezos, owner of the major polluter Amazon being platformed. COP26, once again, was simply an empty promise and a photo opportunity. This year, we are already off to a rocky start as Coca-Cola, one of the biggest plastic polluters in the world, is sponsoring the COP. The representatives of Ireland this year must change the story; they must engage in dialogue with more radical solutions in mind and then, when the COP comes to a close, incorporate these solutions into the agreement and into our policies. They should treat it like the emergency that the Oireachtas declared it to be and do not waste another COP on lip service.

An issue that we see again and again at the COP is the way developed countries speak over those most impacted by the climate crisis. In Glasgow, 130 nations proposed the loss and damage facility, a formal delivery body for funding related to mitigating the way in which the climate crisis disproportionately impacts these countries. The facility was not included in the Glasgow agreement, having been blocked by the EU and the US. Their proposed alternative, technical systems, fell short. Mohamed Adow, from Climate Action Network International explained aptly, “If you had your house burned by fires or destroyed by sea level rise, the [proposal] the rich world wanted was only going to pay for the expert to assess the damage, but not to pay you to rebuild your house". At this COP, Ireland most lead the way in uplifting those most impacted by the climate crisis. We must understand that we cannot achieve climate justice by maintaining the power structures where only wealthy developed countries held the power. That way we prescribe the wrong solutions and that way, we perpetuate the inequalities that led to this crisis. While COP should be about dialogue, even more so for countries like Ireland, it should be about listening.

I remember being 14 sitting in class and for the first time grasping the weight of the climate crisis. I remember going to my first climate strike and understanding that without us climate protesters on the streets making noise, we could not trust politicians to respond to this crisis. I remember celebrating when Ireland declared a climate emergency and the bitter disappointment I felt as years went by and nothing improved. I am 18 now and two COPs later, I am here saying the same things to this committee that we have been saying for years. I do not want to look in the future and see these conversations repeated over and over, while nothing changes. We know there is a crisis; we have the solutions. As Mary Robinson said after Glasgow, "You can’t negotiate with science”. We ran out of time for discussion and negotiation long ago. It is time for action.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Jessica. Now we have Áine Dempsey, also from UNICEF Ireland.

Ms Áine Dempsey

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to contribute to this meeting. My name is Áine Dempsey. I am a climate activist and am speaking today on behalf of UNICEF. Today I will be providing a youth perspective on the climate crisis and the circular economy. It is imperative we remember why we are here. I quote Mary Robinson who said, “Climate change is the greatest threat to human rights in the 21st century.” There is no denying the scale of the challenge before us. Nonetheless, it is a challenge that we must face. If we fail to tackle the roots of this issue, we will continue to experience the catastrophic consequences that are currently disproportionately impacting the most vulnerable in society.

The most recent IPCC report gave us a stark warning. We are running out of time and we are not acting fast enough. Some effects of the climate crisis have already been deemed irreversible. Professor Debra Roberts, co-chair of the IPCC, warned:

Our report clearly indicates that places where people live and work may cease to exist, that ecosystems and species that we've all grown up with and that are central to our cultures and inform our languages may disappear. So this is really a key moment. Our report points out very clearly, this is the decade of action, if we are going to turn things around.

The cost of doing what is necessary to maintain a liveable planet is nothing in comparison with what we will lose if we fail to do so. The climate crisis does not compromise. It is not possible to negotiate with science. Nor does the climate crisis consider what is politically possible. The youth of Ireland have made our position abundantly clear, taking to the streets in our thousands to demand that our decision-makers listen to the experts and take meaningful action.

I, along with my colleagues in Climate Rights Ireland, produced a consultation-based report, entitled Children’s Rights and the Climate Crisis in Ireland. We went directly to the children of Ireland and we asked them how the climate crisis is affecting them. They told us that the climate crisis is negatively impacting their everyday lives physically and psychologically. Our report found that those in rural areas are feeling a disproportionate impact while also receiving the least support. Some 68% of children consulted in rural areas said that the necessary resources were not available to them, and where they were, they are unreliable, such as access to functioning electric vehicle charging stations and access to even the basic levels of public transport. One participant shared their experience of their crops dying more frequently in the heatwave we have been experiencing. Another spoke of the floods in Cork city that had a negative impact on their sense of security as well as their community's livelihood.

Ireland has consistently failed to meet our international targets. This lack of action is impacting how young people view the world and their future. They told us that they were feeling helpless, hopeless and terrified for the future. Participants who engaged with their decision-makers felt their concerns were disregarded and their voices were being tokenised and then brushed aside. They feel the burden of responsibility that our generation will need to be the ones to clean up this mess but we do not have the luxury of that time. This cannot wait. The Government has a responsibility to show these children that there is a reason for hope and not to be fearful for their future by showing that its generation is determined to prevent the worsening of the climate crisis.

To look to the future, we must critically examine our past. Here is where the circular economy comes in. We all know Ireland has an objectively poor performance in regard to circular material use. According to the OECD, Ireland had a circular material use rate of just 2% in 2020, compared with the EU average of about 12.8%. The Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act features a number of welcome provisions, including amendments to the Waste Management Act 1997 allowing for the use of CCTV and similar technologies in these investigations, and the additional levies on single-use items, a tried and tested method which was successful in reducing plastic bag waste by 97.5% between 2001 and 2018. However, it is the implementation of these provisions that is important. We are advocating for a plan that is maintainable in the long term and is rigorously enforced.

The recent OECD report highlighted some concerns as to the approach that may be helpful to consider in devising the circular economy strategy. Ireland's current approach tends to focus on recycling and recovery rather than extending the life cycle of a product by repairing and reusing and also preventing the waste from occurring in the first place. There is some concern over the lack of area-based considerations, as a single national waste management plan may fail to account adequately for local factors such as differences in economic activities, income and population density as well as access to services.

Ireland may be a small nation, but we would be ill-advised to underestimate the influence we have. There is no denying there is a challenging task at issue here. The clock is ticking and each decision we make is essential. The youth of Ireland are worried for their future, for their children's future and for the safety of the most vulnerable people across the globe. This committee needs to give them a reason to have hope. We have made our position known and now it is time for our politicians to act. Gabhaim buíochas as éisteacht le mo chuid óráide. I thank members for listening. Should it arise, I would be happy to address any questions they may have.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Ms Dempsey would certainly be welcome to come back in later when the members have spoken.

Mr. Garret Molloy

I stand proudly before the committee today to advocate for the National Standards Authority of Ireland (Carbon Footprint Labelling) Bill 2021. I do so because on this momentous day members of the committee have heard why we must act. Therefore, I am here to tell them how we must act. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, spoke about how we need a systematic change. I am here to offer one of these solutions. We are on a precipice and we refuse to take one step closer.

I thank the members of the committee for bringing youth voices to the Seanad Chamber today. This action is about public accountability. As the Minister, Deputy Ryan, said, in a democracy, the only way we can succeed in fighting climate change is by understanding the views of our elected politicians. Therefore, at the end of my speech I will put a question to the committee members and other attendees in this Chamber to find out their beliefs on carbon footprint labelling. I urge them to listen out for the question at the end of my speech.

Members of the committee know Government policies have a very real effect on the real world. I want them to imagine a world where we implement this Bill and introduce carbon footprint labelling. Imagine a world where you enter a grocery store, walk to the cereal aisle and look for your favourite brand of cereal. You pick up a boring box of cornflakes and read the ingredients. But what's this, you see a new bright green label which reads 5 g of carbon and carbon equivalents. You rustle through the other boxes of cornflakes and you see 4 g, 3 g or -2 g of carbon and carbon equivalents. What is this? One company has decided to reforest to offset its emissions. You choose the option of -2 g. As you leave the grocery store, you realise you directly helped create a competitive environment which sees firms competing to make the most environmentally friendly product, driving down emissions and preventing greenwashing. Carbon impact labelling has empowered you to act independently and advocate for climate justice by voting with your wallet.

With the support of the committee members, they can make that a reality. Nutritional labels help us make better food choices. Carbon footprint labels can do the same for sustainability. In simple terms, carbon footprint labelling mandates the labelling of products with their emissions of carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide equivalents. As indicated by the National Standards Authority of Ireland (Carbon Footprint Labelling) Bill 2021, this includes the emissions accruing from the manufacturing, shipping, use and disposal of the product. Therefore, consumers receive in simple language a comprehensive view of the emissions caused. This is not revolutionary. This is necessary for the future of Ireland's transition to a carbon-neutral society.

The National Standards Authority of Ireland is already working with the International Organization for Standardization to create a systematic approach to emissions quantification.

The Carbon Trust has aided the labelling of 27,000 individual products from large to small firms across the world. This can happen here in Ireland with Government action. The benefits of this Bill are twofold. In the direct sense, consumers make better choices when buying products. However, the most important and crucial benefit of this Bill is that we create a carbon competition mechanism.

I will now address this Bill's role in allowing consumers to make informed choices. What makes carbon emissions a hard problem to tackle is its elusiveness. Its impacts are not acknowledged or felt tangibly at the moment we create them. The effects of climate change resulting from purchases are not experienced until much later. Therefore, in the sale and purchasing of products, climate change is not at the forefront of consumer minds. We must make the intangibility of climate change tangible by implementing carbon footprint labelling.

The Bill addresses market failures and prevents greenwashing. To create a truly efficient marketplace that produces the best outcomes for society consumers must have reliable information. Markets have failed to provide the information and metrics necessary for informed consumer decisions on sustainability. This leads to harmful outcomes for society. We must correct this informational failure through enacting policy. What has happened while we have failed to correct this informational failure? Firms have abused this informational failure to their advantage, utilising greenwashing. We have seen the greenwashing in claims of partial recyclability, emissions reductions aims and even the use of the label "green product". Carbon footprint labelling holds companies accountable through a simple metric - grams of carbon emissions and carbon equivalents.

Finally and most importantly, incentivising consumers to purchase sustainably by ending the market's informational failures creates one crucial effect, namely, a carbon competition mechanism. What happens when we implement this Bill and consumers develop sustainable consumption habits? They choose products with the lowest carbon footprints. In doing this, they create a system of competition between firms based on emissions reduction. In the market's current state, corporations cannot effectively compete on the basis of sustainability, as greenwashing ensures there is no true metric for comparison. Therefore, consumers cannot differentiate between the product's true environmental impacts and are unable to purchase the most climate-friendly option. When consumers cannot effectively purchase the most climate-friendly option, firms have no incentive to compete with each other on the basis of emissions. Carbon impact labelling creates a system where firms can compete on sustainability through a simple metric, namely, emissions. This competition metric directly incentivises firms to reduce their emissions without forcing the hand of government intervention. Now companies are not incentivised by government grants and mandates but by increased profits and sales to develop and decarbonise their manufacturing processes.

In conclusion, carbon footprint labelling harnesses our economic systems strength. A carbon competition mechanism creates competition on the basis of emissions reductions to incentivise innovation in firms' independent sustainability actions. I have shown the committee how this Bill ensures, first, consumers make sustainable decisions, second, ends greenwashing and, third, creates a carbon competition mechanism to lower emissions.

I will now address concerns that have been brought by policymakers such as committee members when this Bill entered the House. First, carbon footprint labelling would create no more of a regulatory burden for firms than nutritional labelling. I will discuss the regulatory burden of implementing this policy. While nutritional labels measure components such as polyunsaturates, saturates, sugars and calories, carbon footprint labelling would measure carbon and carbon equivalents. We must acknowledge that ensuring nutritional labelling was hard but it was worth it to help prevent obesity. Ensuring climate labelling will be less rigorous and have even more of a benefit, helping to end an Earth-destroying climate crisis.

Regarding concerns about small firms, the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, should train carbon calculator experts and give small firms the opportunity to voluntarily participate in the scheme. However, just as with nutritional labelling, we do not envisage that it would be mandatory for small firms. They should have the option of voluntary participation. This should be targeted at large and medium-sized firms.

On the subject of trade policy, we have heard concerns from Members of the Dáil in this area. This does not disrupt the EU Single Market. There already exists separate environmental regulations on products in France, Switzerland, Italy and Sweden. This Bill is not unprecedented; it is the right action when we must solve climate change.

We have heard that we must wait to see the results of the European sustainable products initiative before implementing this policy but, as indicated by reports, this European sustainable product initiative would be significantly less comprehensible to the consumer and would fail to produce a carbon competition mechanism, all while imposing just as great a regulatory burden. Ireland must therefore advocate at the highest level for carbon footprint labelling. This means working at an EU level of see this instituted across countries in the European Union. There is no better way to do this than by setting an effective and simple policy example here in this Republic. I see a day when we create carbon neutrality on the island of Ireland. When that day happens, I know that carbon footprint labelling will be part of that successful policy.

I have reached the end of my speech. Let me ask members the question I said I would ask when I began. Could committee members and attendees please raise their hands if they believe the policy of carbon footprint labelling should be considered for implementation?

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Mr. Molloy has convinced us all.

Mr. Garret Molloy

Members should keep their hands raised. If we look around we see that members, the policymakers, have shown me here right now, in front of the electorate and the parliaments of the world that they are ready to act. They have the power to organise and advocate a cross-party coalition to implement this revolutionary policy. They should talk to the person who introduced the policy, Deputy Duncan Smith, and work together across party boundaries to implement it. They should not let this policy and the dreams of a carbon-neutral Ireland die in this committee. I urge members not to let us down.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Mr. Molloy. Last but not least, we have Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti from the ISSU.

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

Is mise uachtarán Aontas Daltaí Iar-Bhunscoile na hÉireann. I thank the committee for the invitation to present before the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action. The Irish Second-Level Students Union is the national representative body of second level students in Ireland. One of our core aims is to actively address the challenges and worries faced by students on a local, regional, national and international level.

The global climate crisis is one of the most prominent challenges facing humanity today and climate change is the defining issue of our generation. The ISSU is fully committed to working alongside all stakeholders to find solutions to the issues that face students. It is in this spirit that I speak before the committee today.

In less than a month, COP27 will take place in Egypt. Delegations from around the world, including Ireland, will attend the conference. COP27 is the major intergovernmental conference where world leaders are supposed to commit to making concrete actions, yet more often than not, conferences produce more discussion than actual climate action commitments. It fills me with great pride that young people are the catalyst for these important conversations and that we continuously fight for climate justice, but it fills me with great sadness because young people, in particular those in the global south, are living on the front lines of this crisis, facing the consequences of the climate crisis every day.

The ISSU notes that young people are rarely represented at large conferences such as COP, and when they are, it is often in a minimal, tokenistic and dismissive fashion. The ISSU believes that young people and students are not only the leaders of tomorrow, but are the leaders of today. We believe that COP has the potential to allow young people the opportunity to create and influence policy, resulting in meaningful change and action. However, we believe that we must provide equal opportunities to those who are least represented on that international stage.

The ISSU recommends greater and more meaningful engagement and opportunities for young Irish people to attend importance conferences such as COP and formal recognition of their representatives as full stakeholders. Further to this, the ISSU recommends the recognition of young people as stakeholders in these discussions and policymaking sessions.

We strongly welcome the introduction of the new senior cycle subject, climate action and sustainable development. We believe this is a very positive step forward in allowing students to study education for sustainable development, ESD, in schools. Further to this, we recommend the integration of ESD across the curriculum.

The ISSU welcomes the Government's publication of the second national implementation plan for the sustainable development goals, SDGs, for the period 2022 to 2024. As per the plan, the ISSU recognises that schools and youth work organisations can foster student leadership and workplace knowledge and skills in supporting implementation of the SDGs in society. We strongly agree with this. Section 7.5.1 reads: "The SDGs can be used as a framework and tool to support students to develop their research, practice, critical thinking, problem solving, teamwork, and communication skills."

The ISSU wishes to highlight that students from rural areas are some of the most disadvantaged in Ireland when it comes to sustainable development. In a survey conducted by Climate Rights Ireland, it was found that 57.9% of rural young people had experienced flooding in their local areas versus only 20.8% in urban areas. We have seen implementation of some great initiatives, such as reduced fares for the young adult Leap card, but this is not accessible in rural areas where public transport is unreliable, underfunded and underdeveloped. Unfortunately, in my beautiful home county of Donegal, there are no trains. I had to wake up at 4 a.m. to make this meeting. This is just one of the many barriers that young people face in participating in these conversations. If Ireland is to achieve its climate goals and a just transition, we must provide sustainable, affordable and accessible public transport in every corner of Ireland, not just in the Dublin area.

As we sit here today, thousands of secondary school students are in their classrooms, probably learning about Seamus Heaney, the respiratory system or sedimentary rocks. From my experience, though, there is little, if any, education on subjects like how to take care of our planet or the urgency and attention it deserves. When it comes to climate justice, it is more often than not the students rather than the teachers who are the educators. Education is a great tool in implementing fundamental changes and, as Malala Yousafzai said, "One child, one teacher, one pen, and one book can change the world." We acknowledge that there is a long way to go when it comes to creating a better world for all, but we also believe in the strength, courage and resilience of young people to continue fighting for climate justice. With this revolution, the time will finally come for us to win the fight against climate change. After all, there is no Planet B.

I thank members for listening.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I was trying not to interrupt too much. The Minister has another engagement, though, and we would love to hear from him if he still has a couple of minutes.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I would prefer to hand over to colleagues on the committee. I found the presentations inspiring, informative and useful, but we are working on a collaborative basis.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Absolutely.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Unfortunately, I have to attend another meeting. I thank the witnesses for getting up at 4 a.m. That gives us all hope. I accept the point about rural public transport, the various presentations on the circular economy and other issues. We will listen, take some of the ideas we heard today and see if we can put them into practice.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

The Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, will be joining us and he can speak on the circular economy Bill.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and I thank the Minister for attending. Deputy Devlin would like to speak first.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

In fairness to our guests, they all stood. I compliment them on their contributions today. It is not easy. Doireann went first, and it was no bother to her. It is important for all members of the committee to hear the witnesses' voices, ideas and range of experiences. The Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, Senator Mark Daly, welcomed some of the Deputies to the Chamber of the Upper House, but after hearing today's contributions, I have no doubt that some, if not all, of the witnesses will be contributing in the years ahead in either the Seanad or in the Lower House. It was a great privilege to hear from each of them and I thank them for their contributions.

I wish to touch on a number of elements, the first of which has to do with other issues. Some of the witnesses may not be from Dublin, but people across the country will have heard about the failing water quality in Dublin Bay. We used to be renowned for our high water quality, and this change is cause for concern for everyone. It is happening because of the pollution in our rivers and streams, which is ending up in our water, including our drinking water. The Minister spoke about this yesterday and it is something that we are eager to tackle.

Molly mentioned the topic of water refilling stations. It is a major issue. I represent Dún Laoghaire, where fountains have started to be installed. Just as Caitlin spoke about the lack of public transport in the north west, particularly Donegal, I accept that there are not refill stations everywhere, but there need to be. Someone mentioned electric vehicle, EV, stations. I acknowledge that we have a lot of catching up to do in the coming years, but that is not to say that we are not ambitious. Our committee has the same concerns that each and every one of the witnesses has articulated well today. We work collaboratively and across party lines.

Garret's point on labelling was a useful one for us to consider. Comhairle na nÓg in my constituency invited public representatives to hear about the extent of the journey taken by food products. It was an eye-opener for us all, including the participants from Comhairle na nÓg. Garret was practical in acknowledging that small firms might not have the wherewithal or capacity where labelling was concerned. A voluntary scheme could work well. Customers, consumers and citizens all want to play their part in alleviating the worst effects of climate change. A labelling system could help with that and this idea needs to be explored.

A number of the witnesses referred to the circular economy. It is an issue that I am passionate about and that the committee has discussed at length in recent months. There is a lack of awareness. As with EVs and water, people want to contribute and make things better. Molly mentioned a lack of awareness. People want to dispose of their waste correctly and for certain products to have better lifespans. Manufacturers, governments and consumers have a collective role to play in this regard to ensure that there is either an ending or reduction of fast fashion and people feel empowered to use and reuse products, including second-hand clothes and so on. That all needs to be done as a matter of course without any stigma attached to it. It bothers me to hear that there is still stigma. So many high streets now have charity shops and second-hand clothes shops. From my reckoning, there are doing well.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions and for attending this meeting. I thank everyone in the Gallery. I also thank the Seanad for hosting us.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Deputy Devlin has brought us right up to our break time. People can compose themselves and perhaps we will have some robust questioning after we return from our 15-minute break.

Sitting suspended at 12.19 p.m. and resumed at 12.41 p.m.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Before the break, we heard from Deputy Devlin. A number of other speakers from our committee are going to give their views on the points our guests have raised. We will allow for some back and forth. If any of our guests would like to come in or ask a question at any point, I ask them to raise their hands and I will add them to the list.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank our guests for giving their time to come here on a Friday. Some of them had to get up at 4 a.m. We appreciate their statements. There are many serious points to be made and the committee has a lot to reflect on.

Rather than go through each individual contribution and respond to some of the points raised, I will talk about some of the actions I am taking as the climate justice spokesperson for Sinn Féin. Those actions touch on the issues our guests have talked about, particularly around the circular economy. I worked on the single-use plastics directive when I was an MEP and fully support the stance that we need to reduce single-use plastics. In fact, we need to try to eradicate them in as far as that is possible. One of the things that many people do not know, and this again shows the importance of education, is the link between plastics and the fossil fuel industry. I do not think people make that connection at all. The single-use plastic industry is a way for the fossil fuel industry to continue to argue for its existence. I welcome the focus on that issue.

The Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, is here. He was responsible for the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act. We engaged on that legislation, which covers a wide range of issues. As a country, we are bad at recovery and that needs to change. That was a useful engagement.

Sinn Féin has today launched the Amazon Bill, which proposes a ban on the dumping of unused non-food products. We will be introducing that Bill to the Seanad in the coming weeks. This week, Amazon opened its new warehouse. I have issues with Amazon and its business approach in general. All the sellers pay to store their products on the shelves of Amazon warehouses and if their products do not sell quickly enough, it becomes more costly to keep them on the shelves and they get dumped. Completely unused smart televisions, clothing, books, school furniture, laptops, drones, Dyson hairdryers, you name it, are dumped. That has happened in Germany, France and Britain. We now have a fulfilment centre in Ireland. That is why we feel the need to introduce similar legislation to that adopted in France to ban that practice.

It is not just Amazon. Others have mentioned fast fashion, which is a big issue and a part of the consumerist and capitalist approach that means we buy more, throw it away and all of that stuff. It is also a problem with designer products. There is always a focus on Primark and the low-cost end but designer products also participate in that fast fashion. Brand-new designer products are being dumped. Such companies will not sell those products cheaper because it would reduce the profile of the brand. We must be careful not to stigmatise the low-cost end because the designer brands are just as bad.

One of our speakers talked about Africa and climate justice. We have been doing work on the Energy Charter Treaty. As the Minister of State is here, I will again echo my call for Ireland to leave the Energy Charter Treaty which allows fossil fuel companies to sue countries involved in the treaty. The other concerning part of the treaty, and another reason I think it is important that the EU leaves, which would effectively kill the treaty, is that it is trying to expand into Africa. We are talking about loss and damage. We cannot allow the expansion of the treaty to countries that are fossil fuel rich and tie them on the hook to allow fossil fuel companies to sue them if they try to phase out their fossil fuel interests. There is a climate justice element involved. We need to leave that treaty.

There has been mention of the importance of listening to youth voices. I was surprised that no one mentioned the reduction of the voting age to 16, which is critical and must change. My colleague, Senator Warfield, has introduced a Bill to propose that reduction and there are parties here who support it. Politicians listen to voters. That is the reality. We need young people to be active in the democratic process.

My office has also been doing a lot of work around the use of light-emitting diode, LED, billboards in advertising. It goes back to the idea of consumerism and pushing. We are seeing a proliferation of billboards, particularly in our urban centres. Advertisers are now changing to LED billboards, which have an energy use. We are trying to reduce our energy demand to avoid blackouts, yet we are giving planning permission for LED billboards to go up all around the country.

I will allow my colleague, Deputy Cronin, to talk about some of the issues around public transport, retrofitting and so on. I appreciate our guests coming here today. I ask them to keep the pressure on politicians until they get the vote. Some of them have the vote already because they are over 18. I ask them to keep the pressure on us because that is the only way they will get change.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank the Senator. We will hear from some other committee members. I will also bring in the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, who, as Senator Boylan rightly said, has joined us in the Chamber and is keen to speak, in particular, about the circular economy but also all of the issues around climate change. I call Deputy Bruton.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank our guests for their submissions. I admired not only their passion but also their focus on practical action. That is important. They are largely speaking to the converted in this room. What creates problems for the ambition that this committee shares is that among voters, only 6% regard climate as one of the top priorities for them when it comes to voting. That is an extremely low percentage. Like many of the big changes that have happened in our society in recent years, young people persuading older people of the need to rethink is important. That is something our guests are doing very actively. They are shifting the impression that people have formed from all sorts of historical things. I agree with our guests about green schools and curriculum change. Those are things that shift the balance. Even among people of our guests' age, only 13% believe climate is their top priority. That is something we need to change.

Our guests said that climate change mitigation measures will bring higher costs to everyone and that is what people are shying away from. I think that is overstating the case. I am old enough, unfortunately, to remember when everything was mended in the house, when things were not thrown away, when stuff was repaired and kept going. That was the standard way people behaved. They did not have a high consumer lifestyle. There is scope for doing things that are cheap and effective, and which have a very good climate dividend. To bring people with us on this journey, perhaps we should be starting there. Some 50% of houses do not have enough attic insulation. That pays for itself in two years. Some 162,000 houses have cavity walls but do not have them insulated. They are mainly low-income families. We can chase after things that really make a difference.

Climate action is also well aligned with other ambitions that people hold, such as for a strong and vibrant regional and rural Ireland. If we get a circular economy going, as our guests have outlined, it can play into other ambitions to have a more integrated, urban quality of life and a stronger rural approach.

With the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Calleary, in attendance, I must say I would love to see his Department become an ally of the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, on the circular economy.

I was delighted to hear Áine's emphasis on it. Doing that would be much more holistic than looking just at the climate because it would also take in biodiversity, water quality and damage to our broader environment, but it would also be less confrontational because it would get sectors to think about how they can fix the way they behave and still deliver a quality service. Sometimes, the climate debate can be very finger-pointing. I wrote the draft report on the circular economy for this committee. I think it has immense potential and I was delighted to hear the comments here. It talks about the redesign of sectors from top to bottom and does not look just at fossil fuels. Let us not forget that 45% of our emissions come not from fossil fuels but rather from other materials we use or lifestyles we have.

I very much support the idea of improved labelling, although carbon footprinting might be a leap too far in one move. There should be other things we start with putting on labels that are easier to measure. There is significant dispute even about the carbon footprint of a steak; it is not something everything agrees on. Nevertheless, there is information we could put on labels in the short term as move towards the ambition Garret outlined. I thank him for his insightful contribution. I hope it will help our work.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I too welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, who comes from the west. There are a fair few people from the west here today and it is wonderful to have them here.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I thank our guests for their presentations and, in particular, for their campaigning, the Fridays for Future school strikes and the activism that has pushed the agenda on climate, biodiversity and the general ecological crisis we face here and throughout the world. I presume some of this will be a little frustrating for them when they go home, because they will have come and said we are facing this devastating crisis and that we are not doing enough, and everyone who responds to them will say they agree. I assume that is the same when they meet all politicians from all parties. They say the work they are doing is great. There is something worth exploring as to why that is happening, not just to our guests but to young people in Britain, the US and China. Wherever climate activism is happening, young people are being patronised by older politicians telling them they are right and that what they are doing is great, but then business as usual continues. Something is going wrong. People who are telling them they agree with them actually do not agree with them, or certainly do not agree with them to the extent of doing something about it.

The UN Secretary General, speaking in the context of the latest IPCC report, stated:

Some Government and business leaders are saying one thing, but doing another. Simply put, they are lying.

I put it to our guests to consider whether that is taking place when they engage with politicians. I do not mean particularly in this meeting, but I do mean including in this meeting. The point was made that it has been three years since we declared a climate emergency, so you would think we would be acting as though it was an emergency, whereas clearly we are not. We adopted a series of climate targets that are inadequate and now we are going to miss them. The Government, or large parts of it at least, is trying to push ahead with further fossil fuel infrastructure, in the form of LNG terminals, at a time of this climate emergency that we declared. It has overridden, undemocratically, the decision of South Dublin County Council to say it did not want any more data centres or all this unnecessary use of data that is about targeting people with adverts for unnecessary stuff, creating artificial wants. The county council said it did not want to use more and more of our electricity for that, which makes it more difficult for us to reach 100% renewable energy, yet the Government overturned that ban, which had been voted on by the council.

Similarly, there is no willingness within the political establishment to radically change the model of our agriculture system, the number one emitting sector in this country. It is like a verboten topic to talk about the need to reduce the number of cattle in this country, which is just scientific. In terms of following the science and so on, there is no alternative. If we want to have a sustainable model of agriculture, we need to radically change to a regenerative model of agriculture.

The question is why all that is happening. Some people within the climate change movement are focused on the question of knowledge, and knowledge and raising awareness of climate change is very important. I would argue, however, that the problem here is fundamentally one of power and not of knowledge. We have known the science regarding climate change for decades. We know the science relating to biodiversity loss. As the Minister pointed out, there has been a 70% reduction in most animal populations. It is incredible. We know this is happening. The fossil fuel companies knew it first and covered it up, but now it is widely accepted and full-on climate change denial is quite rare now, yet still things are not happening and we are not following the science. I do not think, therefore, that fundamentally it is a question of knowledge, although clearly knowledge is important.

Rather, I think it is a question of power, and that gets to the point the Minister was making. He stated he was a big fan of democracy and said that was what would do it. I think democracy would be great, but I do not think we have it. Fundamentally, we do not live in a democratic society; we live in an ecocidal, capitalist society driven by the pursuit of profit and crashing through planetary boundary after planetary boundary to that end. The reason I argue we do not live in a democracy relates to the fact that none of us gets to choose what happens with fossil fuels. Those decisions are made by very wealthy corporations. In total, on the books of the fossil fuel companies – I checked this recently – they have 75 billion barrels of oil or oil equivalent. If they burn that, it will lead to a further 8°C of global warming. That is worth about €7 trillion to them, and that is the problem.

Fundamentally, in a sense, all of humanity’s future relies on this balance between these companies needing to take out those fossil fuels and burn them to be able to achieve the value they want to achieve and maximise their profit, and the rest of humanity depends on that not happening but we do not get a vote on that. We do not get a vote on the model of agriculture pursued by individual companies or whatever, on what Amazon does in its data centres or on any of the big issues in our economy. I do not accept that, fundamentally, we live in a democratic society because we do not have economic democracy, and I do not see how we will avoid climate catastrophe except by having economic democracy or by having ordinary people make the decision to leave fossil fuels in the ground.

It can even be seen in all this talk of 1 million electric cars. Come on. If the most ambitious plan the Government has is to shift from combustion engine cars to electric cars running on lithium that will be mined in an extremely destructive way that is extremely damaging to biodiversity and in terms of child labour and so on, that is not a significant system change. The reason for this relates to the fact the car industry, completely linked to the fossil fuel industry, is looking for a way to keep the whole thing going and keep growth of its industry going for the purpose of its profit. A more fundamental change is needed to reject this model of organising society based on profit to organising society in a genuinely economic way on the basis of eco-socialism and planning for people’s needs. If we leave these decisions in the hands of private profiteers, they will continue to externalise all these costs. What the change looks like includes leaving the fossil fuels in the ground, no more fossil fuel infrastructure, no more data centres, at least at this country and at this time, and free, frequent public transport. It does not have to be a crazy, radical, unachievable demand. We should provide people with public transport alternatives to get people out of cars, and support mass retrofitting and green jobs, which include care jobs that are low carbon such as in education, healthcare and so on. To achieve this, it will require fundamental system change, which is about economic democracy and planning our economy, as opposed to just saying we will allow things to continue for profit.

I have some questions for our guests, the first of which relates to carbon labelling. I support carbon labelling and I would vote for it tomorrow. My one concern relates to emphasis.

BP began to put a big emphasis on carbon footprint. It was about saying it is not about the stuff they have done and all the decisions that are taken before we go to the shop and buy our bananas, which have been imported from around the world in plastic. It is about individualising the problem. I am for it but is there a danger in ignoring the fundamental issue, which is production, as opposed to consumption and how production takes place? Second, do the witnesses have any comments in relation to COP27 being held in Egypt? Every year, it is a greenwashing affair but this year it is a greenwashing of an horrific dictatorship. It would be excellent for our young people here to send a message of solidarity to the young people in Egypt in light of the oppression they are facing. Third, I would be most interested in hearing about plans for the redevelopment of mass movements, big protests or anything like that coming up.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Our guests are here as our witnesses here today, which means that members can ask them questions. I might go to the next members, just to give our witnesses the opportunity to think through what is coming up. I call on Deputy Cronin.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I will stand, as our witnesses stood when they were speaking. We sat the last time we had young people in with us. I must say that today has been just as insightful as that meeting was. I was really taken by the fact that so many of our witnesses said they feel let down by politicians and the system and by the choices that are made. There is no doubt but that we are going to need radical change. Many of the choices we make around public transport and how to get to where we are going on holidays are made because we are so time-poor in this world in which we seem to have every gadget to save time, but we are still rushing around like our heads have been cut off. Senator Boylan spoke earlier about fast fashion costing the earth. It absolutely does. Our witnesses have probably heard about the toxic clothes mountain in Peru, where the chemicals are leaking down into the water table, and how that is affecting ordinary people there. The choices that we make here can cause devastation in other places.

I note a few of the young people here today are from different socioeconomic backgrounds, which is important. We were talking about diversity yesterday at a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Gender Equality. I said that it is not just about making sure that different genders are represented; it is about making sure that we have people from different incomes when we are making choices. This is because poverty costs a fortune. Some of our guests were talking about extending the life cycle of products and how important that is in the circular economy as well. It is important but generally, people who are on lower incomes cannot afford to buy the good things, such as high-quality clothing. I remember being delighted that a cousin of mine gave me a bag of clothes for the baby who was coming up, and they generally lasted. If people are forced to buy cheaper clothes, they are not of a similar quality. They will be heading to that toxic clothes mountain in Peru sooner and will be added to the pile. We have also discussed energy costs recently. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, and other groups have attended committee meetings. We have talked about people who are on prepay meters, who pay a higher premium for energy. Many people might not be aware that prepay customers actually pay a higher premium for every unit of electricity they use. There is no risk to the provider. These people should be getting discounted electricity and not paying a premium rate. The provider is guaranteed that the biggest loss it can make might be €5 or €10, whereas a customer on a bill-paying account with a large family could owe up to €1,000 over a two-month period. The people on the prepay meters are paying a higher rate with no risk to the provider and face disconnection, whereas people on bill-pay accounts do not. Poverty costs a fortune. People on low incomes also need to take out loans if they need to replace electrical appliances such as a washing machine, because the energy-efficient appliances are generally more expensive. They cannot take advantage of the deals in the shops in the Christmas sales. Even good-quality school uniforms are expensive. The woollen jumpers with the school crest on them are very expensive but you can get three years out of them. Parents will end up spending more money if they buy the cheaper jumpers from low-cost shops. People on lower incomes are paying more all the time and it is costing them a fortune, whereas wealthier families can afford to buy good-quality products that last longer.

Some of the witnesses mentioned recycling and the messaging around it. The messaging is not right on it. We could talk about messaging on saving energy as well. A lot of people have been told to wait until night time to put on their washing machines, dishwashers and dryers. I took a fierce beating on Twitter a few weeks ago when I mentioned that. All the centrist dads were very upset with me making that point. People should not be going to bed with electric appliances left on that create a lot of heat. They could use their appliances at 9 p.m. and still take advantage of the off-peak prices. Messaging on recycling is also very important. I think recycling should be free.

Peaceful protest is something that you must get active in. We have had two years of being indoors and not being able to gather together. It is a great feeling to be back out there protesting and getting our voices heard. I urge young people not to be afraid to do that.

Some of our guests mentioned public transport. I mentioned earlier that we are time-poor. That is one of the reasons why many people use the car rather than walking or getting the bus. We love lower fares and they really help in urban areas. Many of our guests have come from rural areas and I am bogged down about complaints about public transport and Go-Ahead, which has got a private contract from Bus Éireann. We cannot be relying on private companies to deliver public services. I hope Go-Ahead does not get the contract again. It would save me reading a lot of emails.

Retrofitting is another issue that has been raised. The Bill has been passed. It is great because it will reduce our carbon emissions but we have to make a difference for people who cannot afford to make the right choices. Cheaper retrofitting is available. We mentioned attic conversions earlier on. That is a really cheap way of retrofitting homes that everybody can take advantage of. We should be using our money more carefully. When I am asked where the magic money tree is, I always say that if we clean up a bit around here and stop wasting money, we will find plenty of money in order that retrofitting can be made accessible to people on medium and lower incomes. There was also the issue with solid-fuel homes. We had the chaos around turf cutters six months ago. I come from County Kildare and there are a lot of bogs in my area. I believe our bogs are as important to the world as the Amazon rainforest, but yet we are too stingy to help people who are reliant on turf to heat their homes with retrofitting and save our bogs in the process. It is absolutely appalling. There is no way we are going to get through this by continuing with the current economic model because it relies on the constant extraction of the Earth's resources. There is only so much the Earth can take. Sorry, I am talking too much. It is something that I am very passionate about.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank the Deputy. I just want to give people an opportunity to come back in with their questions. I call on Senator Higgins.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I thank our guests for coming in. There are a million areas of interest coming out of their contributions. I will perhaps finish the sentence that Deputy Cronin was in the middle of, which is that we cannot afford an extractive model on a finite planet with competing needs. That comes through in many different points. It requires very challenging thinking about how we live together on the planet. I want to pick up on a few of the key points that were raised. As was said, so many practical ideas have been put forward here, as well as some very good, challenging and new ways of framing them. There was really good input on the circular economy but also the need for greater ambition in that area. It is not just about recycling; it is also about the right to repair, which is something we still do not have, or the measures which other countries have taken against in-built obsolescence.

Again, this is a production measure. When we talk about the circular economy, it is not just what is bought. It should not be possible to produce things that are designed to fail within a year or two years and it certainly should not be possible to produce things and dispose of them when the profit margins go down, which is that measure we have heard of - the disposal of unused goods to maintain an amount. We have made a start but we very much need those measures that tackle the production side in a strong way and not just on the consumption side of it.

Data centres were mentioned. Part of the disposable culture that gets pushed is the quite aggressive pushing of it through data. When we talk about data centres, everybody thinks about family photos or watching movies, but many different kinds of data are getting used. Some of the ones we need to look at are some of the largest consumers such as web services, that are about the ad that pops up every few minutes or every few seconds in some cases. Some of that disposable economic model is being pushed through data. Even advertising has its own data footprint. Ireland is one of the largest users of data in Europe and one of the locations for some of the largest data users. Again, these are not citizens using it. There has been an increase of 200% in electricity usage by data centres. We need to examine that in a bit more detail and ask what is and is not valuable.

Regarding housing, Doireann and Leo made a very clear point. As well as retrofitting and the fact we need more public retrofitting, because not everybody will be able to make the investment in it, we should build anything new well. They both spoke about how the new houses we build should not be dependent on fossil fuels in any way. Solar power was mentioned but we should not be digging ourselves further into a situation whereby we build houses that we will need to retrofit in the future. That is also something to bear in mind. We know a lot of big developments that were planned might not be built and the Government might come in and take them over. It is very important we do not end up with public money building developments that have lower standards because, unfortunately, build-to-rent properties have lower standards. We should be ensuring things into which we put public money are built to sustainable standards and become like much of the social housing built 30 or 40 years ago, which is still good housing that can be passed on.

Latisha made many brilliant points but one that really jumped out at me was around soil health and how, if we want to be real about talking about agriculture, we need to talk about the actual soil and how we move to that regenerative model and soil health.

Doireann mentioned that we are talking not just about carbon but about a group of gases. Greenhouse gases constitute a group of gases and we need strategies not just on carbon but on methane, which is an accelerant that heats things up. It does not last as long but it heats things up faster. We also need strategies on nitrogen and nitrates.

It is extracting. What might be meant to last 40 years is getting dragged out of the soil in a shorter period of time. We have seen that in the way bogs have been treated. I can see the value in turbary rights over many years but turbary rights are not the same as having 1.5 million tonnes of peat extracted and sold or exported, which is what we had over a very small number of years in Ireland. I see it as a disservice to rural communities and young people in rural communities because what should be a heritage is getting taken and used up by one generation in just a very small number of years. The conversation about rural communities was very strong.

It was a very good reminder that rural communities are not just the big industry in that area or just the very large agribusiness lobby. Rural communities are people who are trying to walk on paths, who want public transport or who are worried about the quality of the water they will be using in their area getting affected. The statistics around that are key. It gets framed a lot that climate action negatively affects rural communities but climate change very negatively affects rural communities. We see that even more in the Horn of Africa where it is largely rural people - pastoralists - who are dying from the impact of famine pushed by climate change.

The loss and damage facility is fundamental. The EU and the US blocked that. We need to own that it was blocked by us and we need to say it is not acceptable to us as citizens of Ireland if we do not push that forward. We know countries have done this. Denmark is a really good marker. It was one of the first countries, alongside Scotland, to acknowledge the historic responsibility for climate damage done in the global south and to make a payment this year. Yes, we want the EU to have a good position, but there is nothing to stop Ireland showing individual leadership like Denmark did on loss and damage and taking a step forward on that. It is fundamental because having 130 countries saying this matters to us, this is essential to us, and we need this a gesture of any trust, means it needs to be followed through on. One thing that was very frustrating was that, at the last COP, on the one hand, there was a reluctance to deliver loss and damage but there was a lot of conversation about derisking the transitions for big companies. Those who have made profit for 40 years from a bad model need almost to be bribed to consider a good model. We do have that greenwashing. It was rightly called out by one of the speakers. Sometimes a big corporation that does a lot of climate damage has a tiny subsidiary with a rainbow on it and some leaves that gets centre stage focus.

There is a point to carbon labelling but another piece of legislation that is active with Senator Ruane concerns corporate accountability in the wider sense, that corporations would have to publish their emissions and carbon impact not just for scope one and two, which is the energy used in making and day to day, but scope three, which is the supply chain. This is something that would be very good and should be looked at. Companies with poor ratings should not be featuring in events. Loss and damage will be one of the big tests of trust.

Needing the subject of geography was mentioned. One of the other subjects that is no longer mandatory is history. Geography and history are so important. We need to know we are on a planet and are in real time and real history. Those to me are fundamental. Understanding loss and damage is fundamental. When I mentioned the idea of who gets incentivised, just transition needs to be a ground-up thing, not a trickle-down thing, which we know does not work. When it comes to climate justice, we need to go to the most affected.

When the Cathaoirleach spoke at the beginning, he mentioned cathedral thinking. An idea I am trying to popularise as another variation on that is Newgrange thinking. What is great about Newgrange thinking as opposed to cathedral thinking is that it recognises we are on a planet. Imagine having human development that realises we are on a planet that turns round and at certain times of the year, these things happen. It is a realisation of humanity being on a planet. It is that long-term thinking but also a realisation of the planetary boundaries we are in and that this is the test of us. We talk about real time. The next eight years constitute the real time. I am really concerned that we seem to have a lot of plans for what we will do in 2028 and 2029. We need every minute of the next eight years to be used if we are going to be in a better place by 2030. It is not a matter of us needing to look better by 2030 and get our act together at the last minute.

I agree with the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty. We need to keep a watch on the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons because weapons will have a further impact on the climate.

We also need to leave the Energy Charter Treaty, as most wise countries around the world are doing.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank the Senator.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I am sorry I went over time.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

As members can tell, we are all quite passionate in this room when it comes to climate action. I am also conscious that there is a lot of listening time. As I mentioned, the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, joined us after the break. He is the Minister of State with responsibility for the circular economy. I ask him to say a few words.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I will be quick. Things started to go wrong for the world in the past 60 years. Some 100 years ago, human beings did not have much impact on the planet, as far as I can see. Eventually, technology advanced to the point where we could do all kinds of things, and lift people out of poverty, but it then went too far. We got to the point where people did not have to fix their shoes any more. They can be made by a robot in a factory on the other side of the world and transported using single-use resources. We could replace and buy them for a small amount money and it is much cheaper to buy new than to fix. We got into this consumer economy where many people were able to meet all their material needs. They had enough food, heat and so on. They then thought they would buy lots of clothes and cars or do lots of stupid things that use lots of energy and so on. Our society has changed from one that barely had any impact on the world to one that is threatening it. This debate was not being had in this House 100 years ago. It would have been stupid then to think that human beings could have any effect on the world they lived in; that was something God could do.

We are here because our technology has succeeded too well. What is the answer to that? Consumerism is the disease. It is the idea that we have enough to eat but if we get a second dinner, we will be twice as happy and if we have five cars outside our house, we will be five times happier than if we had one. We all know in our hearts that is not true. When the idea of a circular economy began to grow, a couple of things helped it to happen. The first was Donald Trump. He was the anti-example of these kinds of ideas. He was the person who said that we should go back, put the world back to the way it was and do all these terrible, stupid things. Donald Trump really helped positive ideas because he is such a stupid man. He had such clearly idiotic views that he made the opposite argument just by standing up there. His declaration that he was going to fight with China and Europe and declare economic wars began to damage the whole system of globalisation. We then had a pandemic, which meant China was not able to export goods, things got blocked in the supply chains, things stopped working and we now have a war.

This whole idea that we can rely on goods to come by ship or aeroplane from the other side of the world, from some mine or extracted from some place, and arrive on our shelves is broken. We have seen and know instinctively that we cannot rely on that. For our own sovereignty and safety, we need to have an economy that works within our own country or continent so that we can get things locally. The idea of a circular economy is that in the future, when our shoes wear out, we will not buy a really cheap pair of shoes that were made in the Congo, but will go and get them fixed. This is a return to the way things used to work in Deputy Bruton's parents' day. It is an economy where, when a person's television is broken, he or she does not just say, "Brilliant, I'm getting a new TV with more features", but finds somebody who can fix it, which is sort of a strange thing. That is the basic idea.

One thing young people have that is an advantage is impatience. They must be absolutely bored to death hearing everybody going on and on and all the shouting. They want to see action and something actually happening. I have been in the Dáil for two years. There is a lot of chatting and many people who like doing a lot of talking. There is less going out to do things and change things. We need both. When I see people throwing tins of beans at paintings with glass on them or whatever, that is a really effective thing to do. It draws attention but words also help. When we think of David Attenborough making his speech as a man in his 90s, or Greta Thunberg when she was 15 or 16 years old, it was the power of their words that moved people. That was what made all the people in the Dáil suddenly change their mind compared to ten years ago when there was just lip service or people were openly denying that climate change was happening. It was those two people, David Attenborough and Greta Thunberg, who turned everything around because they made such powerful speeches and persuaded people.

Are politicians liars when they say they agree with people and that they are with them on climate change? It is a problem of priorities. We can say that we want to do something about climate change and we totally agree with young people, but first we need to build this motorway, we need to do this other thing and we have all these other priorities ahead of climate action. When someone agrees with you but there are other things that are way more important to them than that on which they agree with you, then it will never happen. We are at the point where people agree in theory but in practice they will try to stop the wind farm in their area or will build a motorway in their area because it is something popular. The next stage is the action stage and getting people to actually do things.

We will only do this by working together. It is very tempting for me as a politician to turn on people I disagree with. If I turn to Deputy Paul Murphy and say, "Paul is saying this thing", and instead of stating the reasons I disagree with him, I say that he is a liar and stupid, what then happens is squabbles start that distract from fixing the problem. When we see politicians personally attacking each other, undermining and attacking each other's character, that is then the end of being able to solve things. We need to debate, row and argue with each other but do so in such a way that we end up fixing something together.

I thank the young people who are present. Their impatience, energy and willingness to go out is what will work, as will their boundless creativity and the fact that they can say, "Why don't we try this thing?". It is very hard for an older person to change their ways but young people can. Please keep working. I am very proud of them.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank the Minister of State. That was great from somebody who has dedicated the past couple of years to this.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

They are all great.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Everybody is. I will give the representatives the opportunity to respond. A couple of questions came up. Maybe something they heard sparked something for them.

Mr. Garret Molloy

I will respond to some concerns that were raised about the carbon footprint labelling Bill. I will respond to concerns about the Bill with regard to the principle that it will shift responsibility from firms to consumers. While this is a good principle, it has been misapplied in this case for three reasons.

First, this carbon competition mechanism holds firms accountable because it shows consumers how much these firms are emitting and, therefore, consumers can make decisions on that basis. Firms will no longer have the chance to put on a label stating that people should probably recycle their products when it is not actually possible to do so. We think the Bill covers that. Second, we think consumers can now essentially boycott the product that has the highest emissions. If people buy something simple, such as porridge, they will be able to boycott the product using the most emissions to create that product. Therefore, the highest carbon emitter, or the firm that produces the most emissions, would be forced to stop its emissions or business would be given to firms using sustainable practices. In fact, the Bill does not shift the blame to consumers. It does the opposite and puts the blame onto the firms themselves. We heard a little from a Senator on how Sinn Féin's new Bill will mandate firms to display their carbon emissions on their products. It was mentioned how such firms will go through scope one and scope two, which would show energy usage, and scope three which will show manufacturing and shipping. However, this is a misinterpretation of the policy which, as outlined in this 2021 Bill, would cover manufacturing, shipping, use and disposal of the product. Therefore, it is not actually under that scope.

I will address a question to Deputy Bruton. We talked a little about the practicality of this policy and he stated that it was not necessarily practical to implement it. We talked a little about how it is impossible to calculate the emissions from producing a steak but in reality that is not necessarily true. As I mentioned, the International Organization for Standardization creates ways in which we can calculate the emissions related to our steaks and other products. We think that the Deputy's concern is not necessarily applicable in this scenario. Ireland should implement this standardisation because the Carbon Trust has shown that it is possible. We have already labelled 27,000 products under the scheme. Unilever will label 70,000 of its individual products through this carbon footprint labelling scheme. How do we calculate Ireland's national emissions if we are unable to calculate those relating to a steak? It is possible to calculate emissions. It is something that is under way and continuously happens through the International Organization for Standardization. We therefore ask Ireland to standardise this practice in line with that organisation, as the National Standards Authority of Ireland is already doing. It is possible and practical and, therefore, carbon labels should be introduced. Does Deputy Bruton think carbon labelling should be introduced?

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Garret. That was well argued.

Ms Jessica Dunne

I have a few small points to make in response to what others have said. We have spoken a lot about the circular economy and the idea that consumerism is at odds with it, which is an incredibly important conversation to have. We need to be aware that while we talk about consumerism and demonise the public for buying specific things, we also need to be aware of the very real problem of planned obsolescence. I try my best to live sustainably. I have had to get one phone every three years, which is terrible. I cannot repair any of the damage done to my phones, which have a specific expiry date. The same is true of fashion nowadays. The idea of destigmatising charity shops is brilliant. However, shopping in those shops involves an enormous time commitment when compared with shopping in a fast fashion shop. I can get a blazer for an important meeting in five minutes in a fast fashion shop whereas I might have to go to a few different charity shops before I find anything suitable. It is important for us to have conversations about the privilege to be sustainable nowadays and how we can make changes, as well as considering ways to prevent planned obsolescence. We must look to a future in which we can have sustainable products. Instead of putting the onus on the individual, we need to put it on the companies to start working towards that.

In respect of the loss and damage facility, Ireland gave €250 million to developing countries to address the climate crisis in 2021. My issue is that the money is not related specifically to the loss-and-damage facility. It is more a matter of giving that money on our terms. The loss and damage facility shows this funding as an obligation, which it is, given our historical culpability. Instead, we seem to see it as charity. We need to start the work to frame these things differently and to meet these countries on their terms rather than only giving funding when it suits us.

A point was made that two major people gave credence to the climate movement. While that is true, I think we need to be aware that scientists and indigenous people have protected land for years. Young people and activists in general in Ireland have been working on these issues for years. While some great people who get a lot of media attention have been great at starting conversations, the people on the ground need to be acknowledged more.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

A good point well made. We will now hear from Ms Walsh.

Ms Doireann Walsh

I want to address something Deputy Paul Murphy said in respect of public transport. I am from a rural area where there is public transport but it is not great. I used the train to get here this morning. I caught the 6.15 a.m. train from Cork. I live in Bandon, which is quite far south. The nearest train station to me is in Cork city, which is 40 minutes up the road. People are being told to ditch their cars. That is great for people who live in urban areas and have a bus stop down the road. It is not great in places where people need to drive to get somewhere. At the end of the day, I cannot go anywhere if I ditch the car. The only place I can still get to if I ditch the car is school. I can get to school, which is brilliant, and I am not saying that is a bad thing at all.

I also wish to talk about the price of public transport. It is quite expensive. There is a shopping centre in Wilton, which is approximately 30 minutes up the road from the Bandon bus stop. It costs €7.50 for a child return ticket. I know people with Leap cards who are going around Dublin for practically nothing. It is unfair that I have to pay €7.50 to go to a shopping centre. That is not sustainable at all for somebody of my age. If I want to go shopping of a weekend, I cannot get €7.50 every weekend. I am lucky because I have parents who will give me that money but some people do not. It is expensive. My train ticket to come here this morning was €65. That is ridiculous. It is so expensive. For me to get from Cork to Dublin should not cost €65. A child's ticket should not be €65. That is mad.

It was said earlier that it is frustrating to be a young person, and it is. Most of us do not have the vote. Those above the age of 18 can vote but the rest of us cannot. We do not get to choose who makes the decisions for us. At the end of the day, the nine of us here represent a very small sample of the young people in Ireland. We need our politicians to listen to us. I want to emphasise that. We need politicians to listen to us. We are lucky because we have had the opportunity to come to the House and speak to the committee today. However, there are many other young people in Ireland who do not have such an opportunity and will not get to have their voices heard by politicians. Every adult in the country can put numbers in boxes and vote. We must make commitments. We have to come to Dublin. We have to write speeches. It should not be that difficult for us to have our voices heard. There needs to be change in that regard.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Ms Walsh and agree with almost everything she said.

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

I echo a point that was made earlier. Ms Walsh is from Cork and I come from the other side of the country. I wish to shine a light on issues that are not specific to rural areas. We all face common challenges but the solution is not a one-size-fits-all policy. I have realised through talking to my peers in the national rural youth assembly, that dialogue, that we share passion and love for our rural counties, Donegal in my case. We all want to stay in those areas but it is not sustainable for us to do so. We need fundamental change from the ground up. If we are helped and given the resources to stay within our rural areas and the facilities to further develop those areas, we will be able to stay in the counties we love. Those facilities include transport and accommodation. We must address the housing crisis, which is a prominent issue in Donegal, including the mica crisis that is still a problem that needs to be solved and we are constantly advocating for that. Young people want to stay in rural Ireland. There are colleges there. As I enter third level education, I want to get trained. I want to get my education in college, perhaps in Dublin or Maynooth, and then return to my rural area and make a career and life there. However, it is not sustainable for me to do so. That was the point I wanted to make.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I will contribute now. If anybody else would like to come back in, they should feel free to do so. We will finish at 2 p.m. I thank our guests. I completely agree with many of the things they have said. It is important to hear from young people. I know it can seem frustrating to some. I agree, in particular, with Ms Dunne about COP, which sometimes feels like a talking shop. However, I do not think we can overestimate the importance of politicians hearing what people think. We go around canvassing so we meet a lot of people outside of these surroundings. I was struck during the most recent election campaign by somebody telling me at their door that do not think they will vote. They were in their 40s and told me they do not vote. At another door was someone who was turning 18 a few days after the election, who was devastated they would miss that opportunity. I thought if only I could give the vote of the person in their 40s to that person who was almost 18. The almost 18-year-old was committed and --

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Was the almost 18-year-old going to vote for the Acting Chairperson?

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

They genuinely did not say how they were going to vote. It is part of our party's policy to reduce the voting age to 16. We must get everybody on board with that.

I feel passionately about the circular economy. I ran repair workshops in Galway before becoming a politician. Many of us have come into politics because we are activists and want to get things done. On fast fashion, I absolutely agree that it can take all day to find the blazer you want. I am wearing such an item from a second-hand shop. I very much take the point that this is about thinking about those in society who are the most vulnerable and what can bring everybody to participate in a transition. Those in the global south are the most vulnerable of all. We have an enormous obligation in that respect. Senator Higgins and I attended COP26 last year.

We have a massive obligation as a country, well beyond that of other countries, because of the degree of consumerism there has been in Ireland to date.

In respect of public transport, Comhairle na nÓg was behind that decision to halve the youth fare on public transport.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Yes, it was that group’s proposal.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

The Minister took it on board and ran with it, but it came from young people. That just shows the power of coming up with a proposal, as many of our guests have done. They have made people who want to do their best for the country and the planet listen. Only 53% of the country has access to public transport, or at least that was the case before Connecting Ireland, which started just earlier this year. In my county, Galway, a few new routes have started, bringing more and more public transport, but there is still a huge way to go to ensure that everyone in the country will have an option to get public transport. That is why it is not just about fares; it is about access to make it truly equal for everybody in the country.

Senator Higgins had indicated she wished to come back in, but I understand the Minister of State has another engagement.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I have to go UCD now. I thank the members and guests. If any of the young people have ideas about the circular economy and what we could do better, I ask them please to email me and mention that they were talking to me, and I will discuss those ideas further with them.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

The Minister of State has more young people to go and see now, so we thank him.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

On the corporate Bill, I should be clear it is Senator Ruane’s Bill. Like me, the Senator is a member of the Civil Engagement Group. It was not an alternative to the labelling idea but rather related to what is called corporate accountability every year. The idea is that, as a whole, corporations would have to publish their emissions, much like we are doing now with requiring much more transparency in the gender equality area within corporations. It is designed to have that joined-up picture in order that it will not be the same companies producing the green product and then squeezing the last drops out of the fossil fuel model product, alongside each other and coming from the same company. It is quite complementary to the other idea.

On loss and damage, it has to be part of that issue of historical responsibility. That is fundamental. We owe an immense debt. One guest spoke beautifully about how we are losing the people and places we know but also the nature we know, which is culturally important to us. One part of that loss and damage, as well as the loss of life we are seeing in the Horn of Africa, for example, and through flooding, relates to cultural loss.

I welcome the comment about phones, which is just one aspect of the issue. Within the circular economy, precious metals are something we need to be really conscious of. It is one thing to say we are using products that will not last, but mining precious metals and then disposing of them so readily is another. Apparently, at the moment, if tech waste is mined, more gold is extracted than in direct, fresh mining. That is why we mentioned the energy charter. In that non-proliferation treaty, if countries want to move away from fossil fuels and radically stop extracting, companies might sue them and that is a fear. That is why we talk about leaving the energy charter treaty in order that companies will not be able to sue countries if they make that decision to draw a line on extraction. Similarly, it is important there will not be other treaties that allow corporations to sue countries if they stop bad mining practices, and that is why the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement is one I have opposed. That is going to be very important in the future because mining is going to be a huge global justice issue. It is vital we utilise every bit of metal we have taken out of the Earth before we extract more and more.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Did Senator Boylan wish to come back in?

Senator Lynn Boylan

I was going to but I think everybody's stomach will be rumbling at this point. Briefly, the point about indigenous rights is very important. I am all in favour of the UN looking at protecting nature and a certain percentage of the planet but we have to learn from the mistakes of the past and indigenous communities. It cannot be a case of neocolonialism. These communities know how to look after their environment. We should learn from them.

As for the point about public transport, I was one of those who this morning was able to get here via a bus and two Luas trams for €2, so I sympathise with some of the speakers. We are very fortunate in this city and that has to change for other communities.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I am not looking for a show of hands on this but my eldest son, who is 32 years old, had always said he was never going to learn how to drive and asked why he would bother when he had access to public transport. He is now living farther from public transport and has bought a petrol car. He could not afford to buy an electric one. I assume none of our guests has a car. Do they expect they will never buy one? How many of them think they will own a car in ten years?

Ms Molly Hickey

I probably will. I live in Laois, so there is no hope for me not to have a car. The transport is just not there.

Deputy Réada Cronin

The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has heard our guests’ views today. I have that man's heart broken from talking about public transport. Hopefully, I will-----

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I would imagine a lot of people have his heart broken.

Deputy Réada Cronin

It is so important that public transport be accessible and affordable.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

The Acting Chairperson referred to Connecting Ireland, very important infrastructure the Government is focused on delivering. Nevertheless, I hear Doireann on the issue of cost, whether from Donegal, Bandon or anywhere else. It is astronomical. We are talking about an additional €10, on top of the €65, as well as the cost to get from the house to the station. It is astronomical and prohibitive.

Our guests are the core bunch of activists who do not want to pollute the air. They want either to cycle where possible, to walk or at least to use public transport. We want to work with them and that is another benefit of this meeting. Where there is public transport, the costs have fallen but there remain huge gaps in the service, which we recognise, and we will continue to push for further connectivity. The Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, a party colleague of mine, was in attendance earlier and he speaks about his constituency, Mayo, where there are huge gaps in service, along with Galway, which the Acting Chairperson mentioned.

I do not want to cover only public transport, given our guests raised many different issues, but as a committee member, I will take away several of the points and we will see what we can do over the coming months to work either with existing proposals in legislation or to further their cause through other acts of the committee.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I sincerely thank all our guests for attending. It has been very valuable. Everything they said is now and will forever be on the public record.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

The Acting Chairperson is telling them that only now.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I know, but it will make a difference and will contribute to reports we will develop following the meeting.

I thank the committee secretariat for its significant work in bringing everything together. It is a challenge and a lot of work. I also thank the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, who is going to have the last word in a moment. He came to me about a year ago with this proposal. We were delighted that we could realise it through this committee, so great praise must go to him. The Chairman of the committee, Deputy Leddin, would love to have been here today, and it would be remiss of me not to point out that he has been watching the debate, so I am under some pressure in the Chair. We look forward to any future engagement with our guests.

I again thank the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad for the use of the Chamber. It has been very worthwhile and valuable.

Senator Mark Daly

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, the Chair of the committee and all its members for their engagement on this very important topic. Every minute counts in regard to this issue. This is the challenge of this generation and of this century. Members touched on how the immediate takes over in importance from the global. The immediate issues relate to putting food on the table, heating, inflation and all the other ones that every family in the country and throughout the world is facing.

Deputy Bruton pointed out the fact that it does not appear on the priority list of people because they prioritise the immediate problems of making sure they have enough food, heating for their homes and healthcare over an issue that seems so big it is hard to grasp how they, as individuals, we as citizens and all of the people on the planet can take on this challenge. This is where Government policies are what count. No individual could possibly tackle the issue of climate change. It is the same as if we said everybody was responsible for tackling the pandemic but let people decide themselves how to do so and provided advice. Clearly, that would never work. Climate change needs a global response, cathedral thinking or Newgrange thinking. It needs this level of thinking. Citizens will accept it but they need to understand the consequences of it. Unfortunately the poorest in the world know the consequences because they are now living with them. We see it but because we are not living it the people are not willing to accept the actions required from the politicians who propose them.

It is at least five or six years since I was a member of the foreign affairs committee and it struck me that during the same week, the Vatican and the Pentagon made climate change the number one issue facing the planet. We had organisations as diverse as these stating this was the big issue but we are still speaking about it and it is getting worse, not better. The Vatican has issued many statements since. The Pentagon has stated climate change is a bigger threat than global terrorism or anything else the planet faces in terms of security. It is not anything to do with terrorist organisations or any possible attack on humanity from a war of any description. This is because climate change is causing all sorts of ongoing effects in terms of food security, mass emigration and mass migration. This is the challenge we face.

In this decade we have eight years but every minute counts. When citizens come here to tell politicians what we need to do collectively we will see movement. Everybody can make a difference, as Greta Thunberg has shown us. People in this Chamber over the past 100 years have made a difference to policies we thought were intractable and would never change. They will change but we do not have the luxury of time. Every minute counts. I thank the witnesses, the Chair and committee members for coming to the Seanad Chamber. They are most welcome to Seanad Éireann. We are delighted to open it up to an important topic such as this.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad. We will now go to the coffee dock for some refreshments. I thank the witnesses.

The joint committee suspended at 1.53 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 25 October 2022.

Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate - Friday, 21 Oct 2022

Youth Perspectives on the Circular Economy and COP27, including Climate Justice and Energy: Discussion

Ms Doireann Walsh

Ms Aisling Maloney

Mr. Leo Galvin

Ms Molly Hickey

Ms Latisha McCrudden

Ms Jessica Dunne

Ms Áine Dempsey

Mr. Garret Molloy

Mr. Garret Molloy

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

Mr. Garret Molloy

Ms Jessica Dunne

Ms Doireann Walsh

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

Ms Molly Hickey

Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Friday, 21 Oct 2022