Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 2022

The Role of the Media and Communications in Actioning Climate Change: Discussion

Chairman

The meeting today will be split into two sessions. The purpose of the first session is to have a discussion on the role of communications in acting on climate change. Our second session at 1 p.m. is with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to discuss a motion on the Sustainable Energy Act, which has been referred to us.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the following witnesses from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. Ms Celene Craig is the chief executive officer of the BAI. Mr. Declan McLoughlin is senior manager of the BAI. Ms Stephanie Comey is assistant chief executive of the BAI. We also invited the Press Council of Ireland but, unfortunately and regrettably, it declined to attend today. I think I speak for members of the committee when I say we are disappointed the Press Council has not attended because we think it would have been useful to have this discussion with it as well as the BAI.

I will read out the note on privilege as usual. I remind you, our guests, of the long-standing parliamentary practice that you should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If your statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, I will direct you to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative you comply with any such direction. Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind Members that they are allowed to participate in the meeting only if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. In that regard I ask that if they are joining us via Microsoft Teams, they confirm that they are on the Leinster House campus.

I go now to Ms Craig for her opening statement.

Ms Celene Craig

On behalf of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, and members of the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action for the invitation to address it on the topic of climate change and the media. This is the first occasion on which the BAI has been invited to the committee and we are very pleased to be here. As the Chair mentioned, I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Stephanie Comey, assistant CEO, and Mr. Declan McLoughlin, senior manager with the BAI.

The BAI is the independent regulator for broadcasting in Ireland, established further to the Broadcasting Act 2009. The BAI has responsibility for a broad range of activities including the licensing, regulation and support of independent and public service broadcast media in Ireland. Under the BAI's broadcasting funding scheme, the BAI also provides funding schemes for programmes and archiving relating to Irish culture, heritage and experience.

The BAI recognises the vital role the Irish radio and television sector has in communicating to the public about climate change. In the current climate emergency, this role continues to be of great public importance. For this reason the BAI has in its current and previous strategy statements included specific obligations that commit the BAI to leading, modelling and promoting high standards of environmental, economic and social practice, in line with the UN sustainable development goals. In the case of the environment, we have undertaken a range of actions to promote environmental sustainability and to support broadcasters in fulfilling their public duty to keep audiences at community, local and national levels informed about climate change and its impact. I will briefly touch on those actions now.

In November 2020 the BAI launched the broadcasting sustainability network. The network's focus is to support broadcasters and programme makers to achieve greater sustainability via peer support, learning and development. The network has approximately 40 members representing nearly all broadcasters, including all the major television broadcasters, the independent radio sector and the community radio and television sector, as well as representative bodies such as Screen Producers Ireland and Screen Ireland. The network has developed a roadmap for a sustainable broadcasting sector to guide its members on the actions they need to take to develop a plan for sustainable action and provides examples of what this might look like in practice. The roadmap has been given practical effect via a range of initiatives, including a focus on both energy efficiency and climate literacy. Most recently members of the network participated in a five-week climate literacy course run in conjunction with the Dublin City University, DCU, centre for climate and society. Topics covered included the science of climate change, climate communications for media organisations, climate change in popular culture, and climate change politics, policy and governance. Wider science literacy, including on climate literacy, has also been supported by public webinars organised separately by Media Literacy Ireland, an initiative supported by the BAI.

The BAI's sound and vision scheme, funded from the broadcasting funding scheme, which, in turn, is funded from the television licence fee, has facilitated funding for programming focused on sustainability since its inception. In 2022 the BAI facilitated a special round of sound and vision focusing on climate change and climate awareness with funding from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The authority considered and approved in principle the radio and television programmes to be funded under this special round of the sound and vision scheme and it is expected that funding announcements will be made in the coming weeks.

I turn now to BAI support for adoption of the Albert carbon calculator. In respect of the wider Irish audiovisual sector, the BAI is a member of the ScreenGreening coalition initiated by Screen Producers Ireland and supported by broadcasters, screen production bodies and Fís Éireann-Screen Ireland. Our involvement includes the part-funding of the use of the Albert sustainable production tools by the audiovisual sector in Ireland. Albert is an environmental organisation aiming to encourage the TV and film production industry to reduce waste and its carbon footprint. The ongoing use of its production tools in Ireland is facilitating programme makers to embed environmental and sustainability practices in how they operate and produce quality programming.

On the matter of programme and commercial content, all broadcasters must comply with the BAI's codes and standards. In respect of news and current affairs, coverage of climate change must comply with the BAI code of fairness, objectivity and impartiality in news and current affairs. In the case of commercial content, commercial claims are regulated by the BAI general commercial communications code. Any member of the public may make a complaint to the BAI about programme or commercial content that does not comply with either of these codes.

In the middle of last month, the BAI invited public comments and observations on these and other broadcasting codes. We are looking for any and all views on the codes but the document published also invited specific input on a number of topics of relevance to today’s hearing. In particular, we are asking whether the news and current affairs code should deal specifically with climate change. Likewise, we are asking whether our commercial communications code should include requirements on environmental claims in advertising. The closing date for observations is 21 December.

Before the year is out, the Houses of the Oireachtas will have passed legislation introducing a new regulatory framework for media in Ireland, including the establishment of a new regulator, coimisiún na meán. An coimisiún will have as one of its primary functions the support of environmental sustainability. In addition, the report of the Future of Media Commission includes a set of recommendations supported by Government that will support enhanced sustainability in the broadcasting sector. The Climate Action Plan 2021 sets out a role for the BAI and the new regulator in supporting the objectives of the plan. The BAI welcomes all these developments and will continue to implement them and provide support for their implementation.

In conclusion, I again thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the role of media and communications in actioning climate change and look forward to answering any questions members may have.

Chairman

I thank Ms Craig. I ask members to indicate if they wish to come in. I suggest we take seven minutes for questions and answers. We have a bit more time because, as I said earlier, one of our invitees opted not to come in.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I apologise, but did they give a reason for their refusal to attend?

Chairman

They just got in touch with the secretariat yesterday morning and said they could not usefully contribute to the discussion we were having.

Deputy Réada Cronin

They could not usefully contribute.

Chairman

Yes, I understand that was the language used. I disagree fully. It is very important we have bodies like the Press Council, which oversees a code of practice in the print media space. It is a self-regulating area and we could have a useful discussion with the council, especially around its code of practice. Its counterpart the BAI obviously saw fit to come in and has produced a very good submission. The Press Council could have as well. I thank the Deputy.

I will start, if that is okay. We had Dr. Robbins from DCU in last week and I assume he is involved with that five-week climate literacy course, though I do not know. He made many of the points about the challenge in the Irish media space around climate literacy. There have been moves in the right direction but we must go much further. There is a huge challenge across the media space that broadcasters, from the presenters down to the production teams, researchers and so on really understand the challenge we have. We heard last week we are kind of hitting a brick wall when it comes to climate action at the local level. It is my suspicion much of that is down to a failure, perhaps not intentionally, on the part of us all to communicate just how important climate action is and what it means. We are all good at talking about the high-level stuff like the need to keep the temperature increase to 1.5°C globally. We are very concerned about climate impacts all across the world. We see climate impacts locally, whether it is heavy rainfall, drought or whatever it might be. However, amazingly there is a real disconnect between necessary climate action and this bigger understanding of what is happening and it falls to us. I am really happy to see that course is happening. I would love to know who has attended it but our guests do not have to say. More of that would be very useful.

Ms Craig mentioned the consultation that is out at the moment. I am happy to see in the BAI submission that it is asking whether the commercial communications code should include requirements on environmental claims in advertising. I would like to hear more of the authority officials' thoughts on that. The consultation is still open. The challenge around advertising was broached by many members of the committee last week. Advertising is effective and that is why so much money is put into it. A huge figure of something like €1 billion was mentioned as being spent on advertising across the world. It influences purchasing behaviour and many people are making purchasing choices based on what they think are the right reasons. Quite often they are not and they are instead doing the wrong thing. Advertising is confusing the issue for many people and it is about how messages are getting across. I would like to hear more on that. I should add we have invited the Advertising Standards Authority and it has accepted. Representatives will be coming in next week and we will have a further discussion with them on this.

Ms Celene Craig

Very good. They will certainly have quite a bit to add, I expect, on advertising and climate change.

To address the Chair's first point on climate literacy, this is something that is very front-of-mind for the BAI. Our own awareness has been quite strong through the activities of Media Literacy Ireland and my colleague, Ms Comey, might come in on that with more detail. It became a very key focus for us during the design of the recent focused round of the Sound and Vision fund which had as one of its key objectives the furthering of climate literacy. In rolling out that special round it was our intention to get the engagement of broadcasters and look at the specific issues affecting their areas, that is, their regional or local areas and some of the specific issues particular to those regions. We encouraged engagement, for example, with local authorities to help understand what the specific challenges were with climate in their own regions. This might include recognising a coastal region may be quite different from a more rural or farming one and trying to drill into that to a much greater extent. While we have been open to programming content linked to sustainability and have funded it for many years now, it was the first time we had a focused round in this regard that was supported not just by our own parent Department but by the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications as well. We got quite a considerable amount of input from it in developing the objectives of the scheme. While we are not in a position to make any announcement just yet about the outcomes of that, we were really pleased with the response. When that announcement is made members will see there are some high-quality projects we hope will further develop the theme. Another component of that was to seek to include a learning and development component for both station staff and those contributing to programmes. That was a key objective in this regard.

On the advertising code, we posed the question around whether advertising should be specifically addressed. That has come from our own general experience and certainly strong anecdotal evidence as well that some of the claims that may be made around the sale of vehicles, and cars in particular, need a little more teasing out with respect to some of the detail and the requirement to be clear about what is actually being delivered in terms of climate change.

We would see this as quite a topical issue that is very likely to be addressed in any revised codes that coimisiún na meán would be likely to make.

Chairman

Ms Craig mentioned that the public can make a complaint about programmes or commercial content separate to the advertising. Is the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, proactive or does it just act on complaints? Does the BAI look at what is broadcast, assess it, and report on it to say improvements are needed, or actually everything is being done quite well at the moment and there is no need for improvement?

Ms Celene Craig

At the moment our practice is to respond on a complaints basis in the context of a risk-based approach. This is because of the very limited resources available to us. We will respond to any complaints we have received. We have had occasional complaints around sustainability more generally, but not in any overwhelming number, to be perfectly honest. Generally, there is a good level of compliance by broadcasters that are regulated by the BAI. It is a fairly mature industry and in our experience they generally behave responsibly, which has allowed us to adopt this approach of responding on a complaints basis. We certainly would envisage that there may be a need for a particular or focused detail in any revised codes around climate claims.

Chairman

Notwithstanding the resources issues, which I appreciate, maybe it is not enough to wait for members of the public to say there is a problem with a particular TV show of whatever. Maybe there is a role for the BAI, on an annual basis, to look generally at how broadcasters are reporting on climate, and perhaps to track it over the years to see. It is fair to say that it has improved, and we can say this anecdotally, but perhaps if there was an annual report by the BAI, and a serious analysis of the reporting on climate and the editorial policy approach across the sector, that would be very helpful.

Ms Celene Craig

We are putting in place all the local radio licences over the next three years, which are falling due to be re-advertised. We are specifically seeking proposals in this regard within our guide for applicants. We are looking for specific proposals from them as broadcasters and also on the manner in which it would be covered. Those commitments would then be embodied within their sound broadcasting contract with the BAI. This gives us a very strong basis for calling on any commitments that are made, and for being able to get more detail on the nature and kind of content that is being covered. I feel that this will offer a lot of opportunities going forward.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I welcome Ms Craig her team from the BAI and I thank her for the presentation. It is heartening to see the work the BAI has done and the progress that has been made. I wish that other sectors of our society could take the same credit.

I am interested to understand the BAI's initial reaction to the response from the broadcasters within the BAI's remit - local, regional and national broadcasters - and then radio versus television. Has there been a good uptake in their engagement with the process? Of course, it follows that when one dangles the carrot of money, one will get attention: he who pays the piper and all of that. What is Ms Craig's sense of that? Are there some who cannot cover the topic because of their own financial constraints, which we regularly hear about anyway but that is another debate for another committee in relation to the licence fee and broadcasting charge. Does Ms Craig believe, in the context of the financial pressure traditional broadcasters are under, that this limits their capacity to be as proactive in this area as they might like to be? Perhaps Ms Craig will also comment, or she may not, on whether this is another reason we should be looking at the wider and more progressive approach to capturing a broadcasting charge, or a charge associated with a residence rather than the piece of technology that a person has? That is the first aspect I would like to get Ms Craig's sense of.

Has the BAI looked at, or has it any insight into, what other countries are doing on this? What best practices are emerging or is it too early to comment on that? What could assist Ireland and guide us from a policymakers' perspective as to what we might be able to do to help the BAI, or that which will follow on from the BAI, in the work ahead?

Ms Celene Craig

Perhaps I will deal first with the issue raised by the Senator about viability. There is no doubt that since 2009, the Irish broadcasting sector has had a lot of challenges. There was a huge migration of advertising revenue, which is the key source of income for almost all broadcasters, to the online platforms. This has been challenging and has increased over time. Following the economic crash, from 2009 to the 2012 or 2013 period we were starting to see some small shoots of recovery but Covid has impacted very badly on radio broadcasters. Our own reports seem to indicate that the local broadcasters, as opposed to regional or national broadcasters, were a little bit more badly hit and they had a slightly slower recovery. This has been ongoing for almost three years now. We are monitoring it very closely. The Minister recently asked the BAI to undertake a report in this regard around overall viability.

In our experience, it is fair to say that the level of funding available to any broadcasting entity is likely to be reflected in the outputs. For the most part, the basis of almost all broadcasters' appeal to audiences, and therefore their overall viability, is to speak to them on the subject matters and issues of the day that are important to them and matter to them. When we consider the response we have had, for example to focused rounds for local radio or commercial radio during Covid, and again more recently with our climate round, we are really seeing a meaningful engagement and a real means for them to bring in some expertise, and to learn and grow their own expertise in-house. There is no doubt this is linked to having the staff available to do that, and to afford them the types of training opportunities that can be delivered by some of the industry networks. All of these pieces are quite important.

Generally, there are challenges for the ongoing support for local newsrooms, which are very vital and at the heart of everything local broadcasters do. The recovery tends to bottom out and plateau for a while. There has never been a recovery to where it was pre-2009, and that environment has become more constrained. It is a more challenging media environment. It is a way more competitive media environment. Those challenges are there.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Before Ms Craig answers the second question, I have just had a thought. Would Ms Craig accept that the efforts of broadcasters generally to inculcate climate change issues into their news programmes have been really helpful? For a while a lot of it was in documentaries and various different programmes. I have noticed the difference myself even in the past number of months. Consider, for example, the way in which RTÉ has a specific correspondent for the environment, who is a former Member of this House. Does this focus and positioning of the subject within the news run tend to get greater attention than if the subject is appearing in a current affairs show or a magazine programme or whatever? It is the same with local media.

Newstalk is talking about it and it is in its news schedule every day, as issues arise, which seems to have elevated this to a better understanding among people. Irish people have a great level of trust in our mainstream media. We should therefore harness the best of what we have and fund that in a way that it remains to the fore, and is not an add-on, as broadcasters have significantly moved on this issue. That is perhaps as a result of the decisions that the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, have taken and the way in which it is funding the sector.

Ms Celene Craig

I thank the Senator and, certainly, we would like to think that some of our specific projects in media literacy, including climate literacy - and I will ask Mr. McLoughlin to speak on this also - and our Broadcasting Sustainability Network are very key to elevating the priority this is for BAI and, therefore, for the broadcasters and their audiences. Mr. McLoughlin might speak on this and to give a great deal more detail on this now.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

The Senator is quite right in what he says about increased engagement. This comes back to the earlier question from the Cathaoirleach. The impetus for the climate action course we ran this year came from broadcasters. We have a steering group which oversees the work of the network and we had a taster one-hour piece on climate literacy in 2021. When it was looking at the action plan for 2022, the group said that it wanted more of this. The area of knowledge, understanding and awareness of climate and of climate literacy is something the group identified as a weakness among many in that we need to know more and to be able to push back against people who are looking to delay action. That was very important to the group. We had approximately 85 participants on that course over the five weeks who ranged from the national broadcaster, Virgin Media and the community local radio sector; it was also opened up to the screen-produced production sector. There was very much a strong engagement and that also fits in with what the network was going to do in 2022. All of the members said that they wanted to focus on climate, which they said was a real issue for them.

There are real challenges financially, which I believe the Senator has touched upon. The BAI can and has supported broadcasters via the various departments such as the sound and vision and media schemes but these are very much engaged in trying to find ways to leverage all of their resources to try to address these issues. We have those who have much bigger resources and then we have the community sector, which has perhaps more flexible schedules, which allows it to do things which are more adventurous and wide-ranging. There are many different strengths which these broadcasters can bring to bear. Finances are important as is sustainability in a financial sense, but there is a very strong appetite to engage from the base they are at in the way that they can.

Ms Stephanie Comey

I might come in on that as well in that the BAI has a dual role. We are regulating the sector, we set codes and rules but we also support the development of the sector in what I hope are quite meaningful ways. Mr. McLoughlin spoke about the Broadcasting Sustainability Network but we have a sectoral learning and development programme for the past 20 or 30 years also, where we have networked organisations which come to us and we allocate funding for learning and development initiatives which these organisations deliver to their constituents.

We have definitely seen in the past number of years increased focus and appetite for climate and how broadcasters, as small organisations, large networks, freelancers or a group of community stations, engaged with those topics to make them relevant.

Between the Broadcasting Sustainability Network and being able to engage it in those areas, the funding we provide for programme content and also behind the scenes for organisational development content, we are finding there is quite a good amount of training programmes being delivered. The one Mr. McLoughlin talked about is one such, and we have a journalism graduate programme also which was launched this year, where we train young journalists in climate reporting.

This is only a small sample but every little bit counts. We have talked about a community media TV festival which happened earlier this year which had a climate change module.

To link this answer back to the Senator's second question on what is happening elsewhere, we have also funded Creative Europe Dublin to deliver a green film making webinar where it will showcase European best practice and how we can develop our own practice and take examples from good practices elsewhere. This audience will comprise a great number of producers. Those programmes combined deliver quite a good deal of small but added value.

Ms Celene Craig

Returning to the Senator’s final question on what might be a policy direction, the Senator can see that from a BAI perspective we are taking a multi-pronged approach. We are looking at networking which has worked very well for a great deal of our activities; sectoral learning and development as just outlined by Ms Comey; we are working through our media literacy initiatives; we are now looking towards getting programming commitments through licensing; and then, what might be considered an incentive, funding via our sound and vision scheme, which ultimately delivers not only for the broadcaster but for audiences also. This is quite a multi-pronged approach which we believe is working well for us and allows us to work strategically within our resources, and to work with others in the sector to get their engagement and buy-in, and to deliver the actions at the end of the day.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I thank our guests very much and just want to say " well done” and that the BAI’s approach is very much working.

Ms Celene Craig

I thank the Senator.

Chairman

I thank Senator Dooley and call Deputy O’Rourke to speak now, please.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

On the funding of the sound and vision scheme, how much does that amount to and can the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland give us a sense of what percentage that is of an overall pot?

Ms Celene Craig

Certainly. In the current year a total of €22.5 million was committed to this scheme, principally from our own Department. The Minister, Deputy Martin, made quite a considerable level of additional funding of €8 million available, over and above the percentage which would normally come to the BAI from the licence fee. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications also committed €2.5 million. The focused round of sound and vision, that is the climate round, was a total of €5 million. The Minister, Deputy Martin, had identified €2.5 million from the additional funds she had provided this year for this and this sum was matched by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications’s commitment just mentioned, which amounted to €5 million altogether. This is the amount we expect to be announcing.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is that a new departure or model because Ms Craig mentioned the ability to get programming commitments as one possible avenue for increasing the quality and quantity of climate coverage? Is that the type of model we might expect into the future? Is that a new departure or is it something that is standard enough practice?

Ms Celene Craig

Yes, in recent years we have focused on specific rounds and it has always been open to the BAI to decide if it wants to focus on a particular round and it has done that in the past. In recent years, and principally because of Covid-19 and additional fundings that had been identified by the Minister, Deputy Martin, she had asked us to target some of the additional funding that she had given us to specific rounds. For example, one was to support the Irish language programming; there was also the live Irish music sector which was very badly hit during the Covid-19 period; and the commercial radio sector was also in there.

As I was saying earlier, we have always been open to this idea of global themes within our current statute, and this is one of the themes we can examine and fund as part of our funding schemes. Climate action and sustainability has been a very principal type of programming under that wider global theme. Any open round of sound and vision can come in with proposals around climate action.

I would also mention that we are currently undertaking a review of the current sound and vision 4 scheme. One of the areas which we have asked the evaluators to look at and assess is the benefit which accrues and whether we are achieving the types of outcomes which we want from these focused rounds, which will include the climate action round.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Very good.

On Ms Craig’s sense of the demand which she has indicated is coming from the sector itself for support, and the opportunity to develop and improve in the sector; does she believe or is she aware that there is a greater demand out there for the quality and quantity of content?

Is there a greater demand for quality and quantity of content? It may not be something the BAI sees.

Ms Celene Craig

I have no doubt there is an appetite for that. When specific funding is available to support such quality and quantity, it allows the sector to specialise and bring knowledge and expertise on board where they might be needed. One of our objectives in the climate action round in the sound and vision funding was to identify the outcomes broadcasters were hoping to achieve. They will have to evaluate that as part of any funding the BAI grants. That is helpful in giving them the learning opportunity to look at how their audiences have responded and the outcomes for them as broadcasters but also for their audiences.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

There is an important need for quality content and increasing quantity. When it comes to the BAI code of fairness, objectivity and impartiality, there is often a need to find balance in some of the political debates or, not even balance, but an alternative view. Will Ms Craig comment on how we might better navigate the challenge of doing that in an area where the science is so compelling and strong and some of the argument is around nuance and, at the same time, there are content producers who know how to make good TV or radio? Often we go for the Punch and Judy stuff.

Ms Celene Craig

I will bring Mr. McLoughlin in on some of the detail but it is an issue specifically with regard to climate action that we have been addressing.

Senator Timmy Dooley

We need to try that in politics.

(Interruptions).

Senator Timmy Dooley

I thought there was no alternative

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

The issue of balance has certainly been on the radar for quite a number of years. It probably came to a head in the recent referendums on marriage and life. There was considerable commentary and probably misperception about what the broadcasting regulations say. It is important to note there is no legal obligation for balance. It is not in the Broadcasting Act and has never been in any broadcasting legislation.

Balance is a mechanism for achieving fairness, objectivity and impartiality in particular circumstances but it is not a requirement in all circumstances. What we have done over the years, especially in our most recent guide around election and referendum coverage is to articulate that equal air time and strict balance is not necessary to achieve fairness. It may be necessary. If somebody makes a claim about a Deputy or Senator on a radio or television programme, the Deputy or Senator naturally has a right of reply and it would be reasonable to say we would balance that view by having Deputy X or Senator Y on the programme but where there is no alternative view, in the case with regard to the fundamentals of climate change and the greenhouse effect, there is no requirement to provide balance.

That can be challenging for broadcasters who do not have the resources, expertise or confidence to take that position. At the same time, the issue of climate change will become far more impactful on our society and throughout different communities. Real news and current affairs issues will need to be teased and thrashed out around policy at a local level and that is where balance will be important because we will be dealing with real changes to people's lifestyles. Some of those changes will have to be made and others will be matters of debate at a local level. That is where balance becomes an important element. It is about finding where balance is correct and avoiding balance for the sake of it because one ultimately ends up with false equivalency where views are presented that do not represent the truth or do not represent anyone, or if they do represent somebody, they represent somebody whose views are not factually correct.

It has been a challenge for the BAI in the likes of elections and referendums to press home that message. We have done it in our guidelines, workshops with broadcasters and our public communications. However, it is an ongoing challenge, especially given the turnover in media. There is considerable turnover in media, especially in local radio and, to a lesser extent, the national media. It is an ongoing educational challenge. One can write it all down and tell people what it means but one needs to speak to them, tease out their concerns, fears and uncertainties and empower them via resources and information to be confident to make a decision. I do not need an alternative view here to discuss climate change. It is a reality and we will not entertain somebody who thinks it is not.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The debate around agriculture, in particular seems to be the increasingly most intense debate, where there is quite considerable argument about the impact on social life of changes that may be expected from a climate perspective. Does the BAI have protocols in place to guide local broadcasters in the conduct of debate around that sort of issue or is there good international practice to guide this? It has been an issue of intense debate with the maillots jaunes in France. Is a way beginning to emerge in which, in the words used by the BAI, fairness, objectivity and impartiality should be interpreted on these quite controversial issues?

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

The purpose of our current consultation around news and current affairs is to start to build that up. The fundamental rules and the news and current affairs code cover, in principle, all the issues the Deputy is talking about from a broadcasting law perspective. If somebody wished to make a complaint, he or she could draw on the codes and rules and say the discussion was not fair, objective or impartial. However, as he rightly set out, there will be particular areas of debate in society with regard to which we will need to ensure broadcasters are better informed. What we hope to do with the current consultation and the next review is to look at how we might address that head on in respect of the issue of climate change. However, it goes back to the point my colleague, Ms Comey, was making in that a multipronged approach is needed. There is a need to find way to support broadcasters via training, education and resources. One of the things we are doing with the broadcasting sustainability network is developing a website that will be finalised in the coming months. People will have access to resources on the website if they are a member of the network. The intent is to draw on best practice resources in guiding that coverage. We are at a fairly early stage.

Deputy Richard Bruton

However, the BAI is still working on the basis of complaints. It is not at the point where it will start to enunciate goals.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Not at this stage. However, that would certainly be the plan. The plan would also be to get the broadcasters to articulate it in order that there is a shared understanding of what best practice is.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Mr. McLoughlin talked of asking broadcasters to indicate their scale of coverage in their new licence. Is the BAI considering a minimum programming requirement in respect of climate coverage? In that context, are broadcasters willing to provide climate coverage without financial support on the science of it as opposed to a row between two advocates? Where is that heading in the medium term? Is it only if someone puts up matching finance that it will be seen or will there be an expectation of minimum coverage in time?

Ms Celene Craig

We are not setting any minimum coverage around this. As the Deputy knows, there is a broad requirement for news and current affairs coverage within the statute currently. It is within that context that broadcasters might be willing to set out what specific commitments they would be willing to make to form part of their programme policy commitments, not just to the BAI but, ultimately, their audiences to which they are setting out these commitments. It would cover a range of matters such as content in the Irish language and Irish music.

It also covers music policies more generally. It will commit to a range of matters that are spelt out, for example, the extent to which broadcasters cater for minority interests within their communities. Sustainability will form part of that and it is up to the broadcasters themselves to commit to that. Obviously, that is something that we will monitor. At this stage, the idea would be that the broadcaster self-commits in the context of what it believes is most appropriate for the audience it is serving.

Deputy Richard Bruton

My last question is on the difference between online treatment of content and the regulated sector that the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland covers. Where will that go in the medium term? During the Covid pandemic, we sometimes felt that science was battling with an online arena where anything goes. Is there a role for a body like the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, which is now moving to oversight of online content, albeit not in this arena but in safety and other areas? Will that balance move over the medium term? Will the pendulum swing back to where evidence-based policymaking gets more oxygen than perhaps it does in social media and online more generally?

Ms Celene Craig

I think the environment is very definitely shifting, not least with the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill which I hope will be enacted in full before Christmas. A whole swathe of regulation of online platforms is coming from Europe. While it will not immediately arise in the context of the Online Safety and Media Regulation legislation, it may well do in the context of the Digital Services Act. That is the focus coming from a Europe-wide concern about disinformation. The Deputy mentioned information relating to Covid which was a key concern at the time. The extent to which there is disinformation on something as critical as climate change might ultimately be a matter that will need to be addressed, but under a broader umbrella of regulating or trying to address issues of disinformation in the online sphere.

By contrast, broadcasters and the established media in Ireland have high levels of trust compared with other European-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

Does Ms Craig know Gresham's law in economics? Bad currency eventually drives out good currency. If the bad currency is allowed free reign, the good currency just dies out.

Ms Celene Craig

Since the arrival of Covid, there has been a renewed appreciation of more traditional media. There was a really strong sense that they had delivered very well and fairly current and accurate information during the Covid crisis. I think the support for this type of programming is merited, when dealing with people who are trusted to deliver good and accurate information by and large, and information that is fair and balanced. A small shift is starting to happen. The European code of practice on disinformation, which will possibly be put on a co-regulatory footing under the Digital Services Act, will have the ability to try to hold platforms to account regarding various types of disinformation, which tends to hit in cycles and from time to time. We see strong trends in certain areas in that regard.

Ms Stephanie Comey

I might add to that if I may. In parallel with that is the development of media literacy skills and critical thinking skills, something we are also involved in. The BAI is instrumental in supporting Media Literacy Ireland which is an informal alliance of volunteers from a wide variety of sectors. We have run campaigns in tandem with it. We have worked very hard during the Covid pandemic to fight disinformation with a Be Media Smart campaign to encourage people to find reliable information. We have also delivered webinars on the communication of science. There was one particularly on the communication of climate change. The value of it is that it goes beyond media. Some online platforms are members of the network along with our regulated entities, our public service broadcasters. There are also teachers, teacher unions and civil society organisations for young people and for older people. There is a vast swathe of members of the network.

The regulation and the instruments coming from Europe will help address some of those issues. There is also stuff we can do deep into society in talking to librarians and community organisations at a grassroots level to promote those messages. By working with the two in tandem we can mitigate those concerns.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I thank the witnesses for coming in today. The presentations so far have been really interesting. Deputy O'Rourke spoke about expert climate journalists and climate scientists and the idea that impartiality and fairness can lead to balance. We have moved away from climate change being an opinion; it is a stated fact. Is it possible to do fact checking on programmes where there is debate? Sometimes we have unscientific populist nonsense. I sometimes hear it in the Dáil and I think, "Jesus, Christ, are we still here?" It is infuriating to listen to. Has the BAI ever considered fact-checking a political programme if somebody says something which is outlandish and incorrect? Would the BAI have any role there?

Ms Celene Craig

As we explained earlier, our key role in this regard is in addressing any complaints that might be raised. All of the other activities BAI is pursuing are also designed to try to help the broadcasters to be clear, to understand the science, deliver and make those calls as programmes go on. Obviously, those are matters for the broadcaster itself. We have not undertaken any specific fact-checking exercises as such. Where there have been concerns, as I said, very occasional complaints were raised with the BAI in this regard. We are happy to address those when they arise.

Deputy Réada Cronin

The Broadcasting Sustainability Network has 40 members and has been dealing with climate literacy and education. Would there be an option for some kind of support? I am thinking particularly of television. We have two main television broadcasters here. Would there be an option for them to have a fact checker on programmes about climate change?

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Following on from Ms Craig's point, fact-checking probably best rests with either civil society or journalists rather than a regulator because it involves the core editing of content. On that basis, the network which is made up of broadcasters might be a good vehicle to start to explore how they might support each other on that specific issue. We also need to bear in mind that broadcasters are in the public domain and they are fact-checked whether they like it or not by politicians or on Twitter-----

Deputy Réada Cronin

There is the adage that a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has its shoes on.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Certainly there is a role for the network to explore with broadcasters, civil society or other organisations rather than with the regulator. There is a risk when there is a perception that the regulator is pulling up a broadcaster on factual inaccuracies so it is probably best for other parties to undertake that role. That is not to take away from the fact that it is a vital role. It was very important during Covid-19, at the height of the pandemic, when disinformation was rife. An awful lot of different organisations, including TheJournal.ie, were engaging in fact checking of stories. It has become prevalent, particularly after the election of Donald Trump in America. A good deal of fact-checking organisations have emerged at different scales and they are certainly needed. They should probably be supported as well.

Ms Celene Craig

The greater concern in relation to the accuracy of reports and statements tends to be in regard to the online environment, by and large. There have not been enormous difficulties with the traditional media. Under the provisions of the Digital Services Act which will be coming on stream in 2023 and beyond, the activity of fact checking will take on a much greater role in the context of the online environment and particular aspects of content online. There has been a reliance, in terms of fact checking, primarily on academia and not necessarily on regulators per se. Academia, which is seen to be neutral in this regard, has tended to be where the skills of fact checking have developed and been concentrated. The focus of fact-checking activity is largely on the online environment. Another real concern is around getting access to data in order to fact check, particularly with regard to very current issues like Covid-19, recent European elections and so on. That is where the emphasis in terms of fact checking news content lies at the moment.

Ms Stephanie Comey

The other issue is that disinformation is a very fast-moving process while fact checking is a very slow process. There are immediate disadvantages and challenges in the process of fact checking and as Ms Craig has said, there is no question that the bigger issues in terms of disinformation, which are well documented, are online. There is a lot of research to support that and in that context, it is important to develop fact-checking capabilities and skills. There is learning involved in that, as well as time. There are also other mechanisms that can be used, including empowering audiences to use their own critical thinking and judgment to make calls on content. Wearing my media literacy hat I would always say that fact checking is really important but is a very complex, difficult and slow process and therefore, it may not solve all of the problems we would like it to solve.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Thank you.

Chairman

Thank you Deputy Cronin. Senator Pauline O'Reilly is next.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank all of our guests for coming in. As has been said numerous times, there is almost complete unanimity among experts on what climate change is and on the fact that it exists and so on. There is also almost complete unanimity on the actions that are required to address climate change. There is an acceptance among the general public that climate change exists and is real as well as an understanding of the science. Broadcasters have done a good job in presenting the evidence but is it fair to say that a lot more work is needed to communicate the consensus around the actions required to tackle climate change? Climate action means a modal shift away from new roads towards cycling, walking and public transport and the associated planning that is required in order to do that. It also means that we need to ramp up on renewables, which means that we will need more wind farms, and that we will have to bring down our agricultural emissions. These are the areas where the rubber hits the road and we need to make sure that broadcasters understand that. My personal experience is that there is no issue around the communication of the fact that climate change exists but a difficulty arises with communicating the things that need to happen to tackle it. Are our guests confident that broadcasters are communicating that, are doing it fairly and in accordance with the relevant legislation and the codes of the BAI?

Ms Celene Craig

It is important to see media as the vehicle for facilitating all of this rather than arguing that there is an absolute requirement on them to fulfil a particular function. The job of the media is to ensure that they can co-ordinate the delivery of this kind of information. Through all of our activities, our hope and our objective is to ensure that they build their own knowledge and confidence to deliver some of those messages, both in their news and in their current affairs output in particular. It is important that they know what the key messages are and that they facilitate discussion and debate on them. Through our Sound and Vision focused round, for example, one of the objectives is that media would increase their engagement with the expertise available in their own localities, understand the issues and their implications for their franchise or broadcasting area, as well as the issues of debate for their audiences. The aim is to facilitate them to build a degree of expertise and an ability to challenge any counter views that are being offered, as part of news and current affairs programming.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

There is no equivalence between climate denial and the sense that climate change exists but there tends to be an equivalence given to some of the topics related to climate action by the general public, if not by broadcasters. It is as if high-emissions activities are equivalent to low-emissions activities but all of the science tells us that we need to move to the low-emissions activities, so equivalence should not be given to those activities, some of which I mentioned earlier. With that in mind and specifically in regard to energy efficiency and climate literacy training, does that address the issue of the action required and the fact there should not be an equivalence when it comes to those activities? I refer here to the pro-cycling, anti-cycling arguments, for example, when we know that we need more cycling if we want to bring down our emissions and that is just a fact. Most people would agree with that, for instance.

Ms Celene Craig

I am sure my colleagues will want to respond with regard to some of the detail but in terms of local broadcasters and indeed, some of our national broadcasters, the hope is that they will build that expertise as part of their news delivery and current affairs programming teams. It is important that they grow that knowledge. We are endeavouring to ensure that through all of types of activities in which we engage, they are building a level of expertise in some of these areas. Very often they are relying on bringing people with expertise into the studio and that is the reality in terms of the resources that are available to Irish broadcasters. That said, one would hope that our national broadcasters, for example, which have more focused resources, will be able to build up knowledge and expertise.

As I said, through all of our activities, our objective is that broadcasters start to build more knowledge and information in that regard over time. Mr. McLoughlin may wish to add some detail on training.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

I will make the observation that it is a real challenge and there are probably two poles to that challenge. The first is where one has a broadcaster on a particular issue, or more generally, which is not familiar with the details because it is not in a position to put the resources into familiarising itself with the details and it needs additional support from either experts or from the likes of the Broadcasting Sustainability Network. At the other end is the very informed broadcaster with many resources. If a broadcaster is unsure about something, it will naturally take a more conservative approach to coverage. At the far end of the scale are all of those changes to our fundamental way of living that will be necessary but the way in which they are given practical effect nationally, locally or in a community can be contested and the particular ways in which they are given effect may be potentially incorrect. A role of a broadcaster, therefore, is to challenge. It may not be challenging the particular objective of the action but it may set out the reasons something may not be practical in the way the broadcaster is presenting it. I am not saying that is always the case.

I think we will find that most broadcasters are not objecting to the overall direction of travel. They will either be unsure and take a conservative approach on complex topics, as we have sometimes seen with elections and referendums, or there will be genuine issues which they will reasonably challenge or explore, if nothing else. We see that a lot with cycleways recently. It is a difficult one and very much for the broadcaster, which is editorially independent, to decide what is the best approach. It is a real challenge, however. The role of a network, a media literacy activity or other actions is to empower broadcasters to have the confidence to make the right calls in those decisions and not to fall back on "he said, she said" or two sides of the same coin arguments or of making sure a powerful member of the community who is against a topic is heard versus ensuring another group of people who represent other parts of the community also get heard. That needs to be done in a way that serves the truth on the topic, rather than serving an argument without any purpose other than itself.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That is fair enough. It is a difficult one but the challenge for us as a society is that if each individual broadcaster goes down the same route regarding each cycle lane and road, the coverage will suggest there is some balance between the two activities when the reality is that one is high emitting and the other is low emitting. Overall, the coverage within broadcasting will not reflect the reality of what needs to be done. I appreciate the difficulties. Some of the funding that has been given and some of the programming happening are excellent.

My final point is on types of programmes. Mr. McLoughlin has mentioned news and current affairs numerous times, which is great, and members listen to news and current affairs. I note that the figures show that 92% of people tune in to radio at some point during their week. Ratings for radio are, therefore, still very high but it is very much spread across a different kind of programming. What are the codes, practice and policies for all of the different types of broadcasting? Where we really need to see the message is getting through is on the flagship shows for each of the broadcasters, not just on a sideshow, and also during news programmes on, say, fundamentally music-based stations. I hear this on some stations but I am just trying to understand the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's role in that, so it is not just based on news and current affairs.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Ms Craig spoke about the changes in our licensing process. That is a way of encouraging broadcasters to set out proactively how they are going to address the issue of sustainability, including environmental sustainability. That is one measure we are taking. The other thing we did was with the climate action course we recently concluded. I cannot remember the exact details but a focus of one element of the course was that there are lots of interesting ways, other than through news and current affairs, to explore the topic of sustainability in people's lives. To the best of my recollection - perhaps Ms Comey can confirm this - but I think the climate round included many such programmes. The BAI sound and vision scheme does not fund news and current affairs, so the €5 million of funding is going to programming that is not news and current affairs. The issue of funding is certainly an important one. Those are my observations.

Ms Stephanie Comey

I will speak briefly about the climate action round. We have received, I think, 41 applications which is actually excellent for a focused round. There are 41 programme makers out there who want to make programmes on climate change for a variety of formats and audiences. There is a bit of everything in it. The fund does not actually finance news and current affair programmes at the moment. That may change under the new Bill but at the moment it does not. What kinds of programmes are we talking about? There really is a wide range. It can be a lifestyle programme around fashion, travel, homes and interiors and how we furnish our homes in a more climate-friendly way. A programme might be about telling stories of local communities and how they encounter climate change, for example, through costal erosion. There is geography in there and also a lot on managing and reckoning with our natural environment, and asking what Ireland looks like in the time of climate change. We are very lucky in this country that we have many very creative and talented people who can take those topics and turn them into quite compelling viewing that appeals to a variety of audiences. The 14-year-old teenagers might find something that will resonate with them while other things will resonate with the pensioner at home and help them understand. The really important thing the fund and broadcasters can do is try to ensure they cover the wide range of audiences. There is not just one audience in Ireland but hundreds of them and programmes need to try to appeal to what that might mean to them and make it relevant to the local or regional audiences. There are ways to do that beyond news and current affairs, although that too is really important as we have spent a great deal of time discussing this morning.

Ms Celene Craig

The focused round of sound and vision funding was about trying to find creative ways to raise awareness but also to engage audiences in a way that ensures they do not switch off, which can happen at times with news and current affairs content. That is where reaching out and having the independent producers or broadcasters really thinking about creative ways of trying to get these messages across are very important aspects of our multi-pronged approach to addressing this.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I am aware that one of my colleagues wishes to contribute. Sound and vision is an excellent programme and coming from Galway, where we have many creative people, I very much welcome it. The piece around music shows needs to be addressed as well and I hope the commission will do that. I hear bits of news coming into these shows and it is not always balanced. At times, it can be a little populist. I do not think it is the fault of the show. Perhaps it has not been targeted enough. I will not mention the stations but there are some shows that can be lifestyle-related, even if they are mainly music. These are what many people listen to. They are the flagship shows on many of these stations and that point probably does need to be addressed.

Chairman

I thank Senator O'Reilly. I believe Senator Higgins will speak from her office.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Yes, I am speaking from my office. I thank the witnesses. This has been a really interesting discussion. I will follow up on one of the points that was very well made by Senator O'Reilly on coverage.

It strikes me that when discussing the actions, there is, of course, the question of covering those actions, but there is also the aspect of incorporating the science and properly reflecting it, including in regard to the carbon budget and the factual implications and measures associated with it. For example, there might be a project that will cost €20 million. There will be people saying they like it and others saying they do not like it, but the cost of €20 million is put down as a fact. Similarly, the carbon impacts, which are measurable in many cases and certainly should be measured in the case of national development plan projects and others, are facts that should be placed into the discussion. That is not in the space of opinion or anything like that; it is part of the facts. We should treat this aspect much as we would treat the financial information. The carbon impact and the implications of carbon budgets are factual considerations that should be included in discussions. That is one way of carrying the science and factual information into specific discussions as well as looking in the general sense at how we can act on climate change.

I have a number of specific questions about the various schemes. Reference was made to the sound and vision scheme, which has led to some very good work, and the climate action round. What are the witnesses' thoughts on the new European works scheme that is coming through under the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill 2022, which has just completed its journey through the Oireachtas? It is potentially a very exciting scheme. The provision relating to the European works scheme refers to "environmental sustainability, biodiversity, and climate change". I acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, accepted my amendment to include biodiversity in that provision alongside climate change and environmental sustainability. They are concerns that sit alongside each other for many citizens in Ireland. Environmental sustainability, biodiversity and climate change are directly referenced in the provision. Will the witnesses comment on the potential of the European works scheme? Will they elaborate on whether some of the ways in which issues have been reflected and prioritised under that scheme could be translated into other schemes? Will they also comment on the importance of ensuring the scheme is properly funded and that the many platforms that are broadcasting in Ireland contribute to a fund that allows for the kind of quality content that reflects and addresses things like biodiversity and the climate crisis? I am interested in their thoughts on those points.

I am also interested in the witnesses' thoughts on the media codes set out in the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill and how they might intersect with what the BAI does into the future. They will not just cut across advertising but also, potentially, other aspects of the media code. I might have a follow-up question after our guests have responded.

Ms Celene Craig

I thank the Senator for her questions. I will deal first with the new European works scheme. That will be a matter for an coimisiún na meán once it is established. The BAI has been staying very close to the way in which the legislation is being prepared and helping to put some shape on it. We have also been liaising with our European colleagues on how the measure is being given effect in other jurisdictions. There are a few aspects to consider. The first, which the Senator touched on, will be to look at the potential value of the scheme and the implications for those who fall within its scope in terms of the raising of the moneys that will , in effect, create the fund to support the European works scheme. That will involve identifying the players in Ireland who potentially can contribute. There is a lot of complexity in assessing the means by which the funds will be raised.

More generally, the shape of the scheme will be a matter for an coimisiún na meán. The objectives of the scheme need to be crystallised clearly. There are many issues to consider in setting out its objectives.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

There is a lot of detail set out in the legislation.

Ms Celene Craig

I thank the Senator. I was coming to that. In regard to the sound and vision scheme, for example, I expect the perspective of an coimisiún na meán will be very much the same as ours. The legislation will be the first point of guidance in starting to look at what the objectives of the scheme should be. As the Senator said, there is quite a bit of material in the legislation.

The other aspect that is key will be looking at what the strategic objectives of an coimisiún na meán should be. They will flow from its functions under the statute. I am thinking in particular about its broad functions around providing diversity for Irish audiences. That aspect, combined with the guidance that is set out the statute, will, I expect, be the key factors in shaping the development of the scheme by coimisiún na meán. There is practical work to be done on scoping, including who is in scope, who can benefit and who will contribute, and looking at the practical arrangements for raising the fund and setting the amount of the levy for the scheme.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I have a few follow-up questions. On biodiversity, I have a few nice things to say about the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. I am often very harsh on the Government on lots of issues but, as I said, I am pleased that biodiversity has been included alongside environmental sustainability and climate change in the provisions relating to the European works scheme.

Ms Craig talked about the climate action round. Where does the biodiversity aspect fit into the BAI's schemes? There has been quite successful funding of arts initiatives in respect of climate. Is that creative perspective on climate something that has come through in the climate action round? Is it coming through in the BAI's arts funding or could it be supported to come through? I am interested in an artistic perspective, take on or framing of climate issues.

Ms Craig mentioned having contact with European colleagues. Another area that needs resourcing and focus is the international context. Climate as an issue is very specific. While it can have a very local dimension, and local radio is key in that regard, as was mentioned, it also has a clear international context. This is a global challenge. How can the BAI support Irish storytelling that links with the international context and bring international storytelling on climate into an Irish context? How does Ms Craig see that link being made?

I would appreciate if Ms Craig would comment on the issue I raised regarding the reporting of carbon budget impacts and implications in the same way that projected financial costs and things like that are reported. There is scope to incorporate the carbon aspects as a standard measure in respect of a number of key topics. Is there capacity among broadcasters to do that or will they need access to different kinds of materials to be able easily to include the facts on carbon impacts as they do the facts on financial impacts?

Ms Celene Craig

I will address the Senator's last point first. In terms of the various resources the BAI provides, whether the website for our sustainability network, for instance, training and development or through some of our sectoral work, we are working towards building expertise within the Irish broadcasters whereby if they do not have the information, they will know where to source it and how to build their own expertise in this area. There is nothing I can specifically say in terms of putting a requirement on broadcasters to address carbon impacts.

As our activities grow, and their expertise and confidence in this area grows, we expect to see greater challenging of people. The ability to challenge when budgets are presented, for example, might involve looking at what some of the performance indicators might be, such as carbon impacts. If they have enough knowledge, that positions them to be able to challenge. If they are not in a position to build that expertise, they should know what type of expertise they can build into their content and programming in order to be in a position to challenge or debate more thoroughly on some of these points.

We can say that biodiversity was in the scope of the recent climate action round. We hope to announce that soon but unfortunately I am not in a position at this juncture to give more detail on it. However, it was certainly within the scope of the recent round.

The Senator made an important point on creativity. We hope to illustrate through this focused round that a focus on climate change is not just coming through in news and current affairs content. We want to demonstrate that there is also a creative means to deliver this information and, more importantly, to engage audiences, aid their understanding and get their support for the change that is needed at every level.

The international context is never far from the minds of broadcasters when they are positioning a piece. It is important to recognise that in serving their own audience - regardless of whether it is a national, local or community audience - it is about understanding the wider international context, the wider science and the wider knowledge that is there and trying to make it relevant for their audience. That is often about bringing the issues down to the local issues in a particular context, taking the factors that are in play in the international context and identifying what elements are most relevant to the audience we serve. That is a well-honed skill that our players in the Irish broadcasting sector have fine-tuned over many years.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

To follow up on the international aspect, we know that in the film-making area there is significant transnational collaboration. We see productions co-funded by multiple bodies. Similarly in regard to national broadcasters, when it comes to television and radio programming is there scope to look at collaboration between BAI schemes and other schemes internationally because the stories are international? This is an area that seems well developed in terms of film financing and funding as well as sport. Perhaps even more can be done with it in regard to radio and current affairs.

Chairman

I thank Senator Higgins.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I have a final question on production.

Chairman

No, I have to stop you there. We have to finish at 1 p.m. Other members have indicated.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I apologise. I did not realise another member had indicated. Perhaps within the other member's response there might be something on the production side. I was interested in what Ms Craig said on production. When she is responding to the other member, she might have comments on the production-----

Chairman

The Senator is asking Ms Craig to use Senator McGahon's time to respond to her.

Senator John McGahon

I am happy to facilitate Senator Higgins.

Where one gets one's news and information depends on what generation one belongs to. It stands to reason that those under the age of 30 get most of their climate information through social media, but what about the generations above that? In Ms Craig's view, where are those between the ages of 35 and 55, or those who are even older, getting their information or news on climate action?

Ms Celene Craig

In the 35+ category, there is a mix of sources. Broadcasting is very strong in some of the older demographics. It is probably fair to say that those between the ages of 35 and 55 source their information from a mix of traditional sources and online as well. The BAI has undertaken research with Reuters in Ireland as part of a wider study on sourcing of news and current affairs. This shows that even when people are sourcing information online, they source it from the traditional broadcasters or some of the traditional press. That is still their key source of news and current affairs, albeit they may be going to a broadcaster’s website for information or getting news through their social media feeds from these traditional sources. There is definitely a challenge with younger audiences. The broadcasters in Ireland that target younger audiences are always looking for creative ways to engage them on some of these key issues. Climate change happens to be an issue that is extremely topical with younger audiences. It is fair to say that it is being catered for in the programming schedules.

Senator John McGahon

It is interesting that Ms Craig speaks of traditional media such as RTÉ or The Irish Times. Would Ms Craig and her colleagues be able to say, from the reports they have looked at, whether 10%, 15% or 20% of the news that RTÉ put out on "Six One" over a six-month timespan was related to climate-related activities? I appreciate that they might not be able to do so off the top of their heads. Do they have that level of detail or is it more general? Is there any way we can ascertain how much of the output of our traditional media is devoted to a certain sector, such as housing, climate, jobs or enterprise? Would the information be that detailed?

Ms Celene Craig

We do not collect data in such a structured way. We can say that our public service broadcasters, RTÉ and TG4, set very clear commitments in regard to their performance in certain areas. Any commitments they make on an annual basis are reviewed by the BAI as part of an annual performance review. However, we are not gathering data at that very micro level.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Dr. David Robbins made the point last week that Irish broadcasting is probably under-researched in this regard. To collect that level of data would be a significant piece of work. It might be something that universities or coimisiún na meán will need to look at. We do not have those data. Individual broadcasters may have the data but the regulator does not. I am not aware of the detail. Certainly Dr. Robbins's research was not so recent.

Senator John McGahon

Obviously, traditional media have to react to what happens on a given day in the country or the world. I will mention as an example the wildfires that broke out in Australia just before Covid-19. I sometimes find that when it is reported that this type of stuff is happening - I could also mention that one third of Pakistan was under water in recent months - the link is not made with climate action or with the reasons these things are happening in various parts of the world. The average person who is sitting at home just thinks that what is happening in Pakistan is terrible. The reason that is happening in Pakistan is that we are not working really hard across the world to try to reduce our global temperatures. The media always report drought or wildfires in California - we are seeing more and more natural disasters as a result of climate change - but sometimes they fail to link these events back to the reason they are happening. Maybe it is not the role of the broadcaster to link it back to that, but can the witnesses see the angle I am coming from?

Ms Celene Craig

I completely understand what Senator McGahon is saying. In the moment, currency is the word when it comes to delivering up-to-date news on broadcasting services. Very often, they are trying to establish the facts and ensure their sources, particularly in an international context, are giving factually correct information. The Senator gave some examples of things happening on the other side of the globe. There is always an urgency to ensure information comes from a reliable source. Often, the key thing is to report the event itself as opposed to having time to reflect on it.

That point of reflecting on what all of this is about may be the task of a different type of programme or content.

Senator John McGahon

That is great.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

If no one else is indicating-----

Chairman

I was about to contribute.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Apologies.

Chairman

There will be time for the Senator to contribute again shortly. I return to a point Deputy O’Rourke made about the Punch and Judy approach taken to climate reporting in some of the most watched and listened to programmes. It is separate from the climate literacy discussion. I have no doubt the people involved are professional and understand the issues. It is not a climate literacy or disinformation issue, which are problems that may exist elsewhere in media. It is to do with the chase for ratings to get more people watching and listening. For example, two politicians may be set up against each other and the debate may be framed as important when actually, in the great scheme of things, it may not serve us in facing the great challenge we have. How would we address that tendency? I understand that broadcasters have a bottom line and operate in a very challenging revenue environment. They lean into their advertising but also their ratings and getting more people to listen. They often treat climate action in a very divisive way. What is the role of the BAI and others in developing guidelines such that we do not get this chase for ratings and this polarisation approach? The current approach is not one of asking whether climate change is real. It is a different kind of division but one which does stifle climate action at the local level. I ask the witnesses to respond on that.

We have touched on advertising. I refer to the placement of advertising. I think all members of this committee have been on radio and television shows and have been interrogated and dragged over hot coals – pardon the pun – on particular issues. We are told we are not doing enough. There will then be a cut to the break and we hear that the programme is sponsored by a company that is selling a product that we would not encourage from a point of view of climate action because it would not be positive in that regard. Alternatively, the advertising might completely jar with the segment that has just been on. For example, there might be a segment on water quality followed by advertisements for the National Dairy Council. There is a direct correlation between water quality and the impact of the intensification of the dairy industry in this country in the past ten years. There could be an advertisement for gas boilers after a segment on retrofitting. These are important issues on which we have to guide the sector and it must go as far as the placement of advertising because it is so powerful. There is a question about sponsorship of programming as well.

The debate around coverage if climate action and the amount of time given to the issue perhaps pulls away from the quality of reporting sometimes. Giving an issue time is not enough if it is not a proper interrogation of the issue. I wonder whether enough time is given to interrogating political parties and politicians. It is not just the Minister who has a role when it comes to climate action. Everybody in the Oireachtas, not just the Government, has a role. Is the role of everybody in the political space being treated correctly? Even outside the political space, there is the role of local authorities, not only on the elected side but also on the staff side. Will the BAI and others try to capture that challenge in the guidelines they will develop?

The BAI is doing very good work but I have to reiterate the urgency of this. There is this tension between the urgency and getting it right. That is not easily resolved. However, I can safely say at this point that there is a disconnect across society regarding the need for certain things in communities, whether it is development of a renewable energy project or an active travel scheme. I mentioned last week that I had read through hundreds of submissions on a particular active travel scheme in Limerick, not one of which referred to climate as the reason for doing it. There is huge disconnect there, so there is an important role for politicians, as professional communicators, but also for the media.

Ms Celene Craig

I will deal specifically with advertising and sponsorship. We have clear rules on product placement and sponsorship of programmes. Mr. McLoughlin will be happy to provide any details the Chair may want around that. Suffice to say, there are clear rules and it is open to people to make a complaint to the BAI where they believe the code has been breached. Does Mr. McLoughlin want to come in on that point?

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

To make a more general point, while there is the challenge the Chair highlighted, from a regulatory broadcast perspective, all of these advertisements are legal. It is, therefore, difficult for the regulator on its own, without some mandate from the Houses of the Oireachtas, to interfere with the free right to advertise and the right of broadcasters to carry such advertisements. That is not to say there are not challenges. The Chair highlighted that there is a disconnect and it is linked to wider societal disconnect. There are the systemic issues around changing society and Senator O’Reilly asked how we make that modal shift. That will apply to advertising and all sorts of areas. That wider shift is necessary before something like advertising and placement could be addressed by the regulator with that mandate. That is my observation on that point. It is not that there is no willingness but there is the reality of the advertising market and the legality of such advertisements.

Chairman

It could be addressed to some extent in the guidelines the BAI is updating. On that point, members may be interested in contributing to that. I see the deadline is 21 December, which is probably very difficult for us given the timeline involved. If the BAI is open to receiving something from the committee after Christmas, we would certainly appreciate a little extra time.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

It should be borne in mind that it is a very open process. There is no need for detail. It is very much observations and comments and capturing perspectives, rather than detailed or backed-up submissions. Basically, it could involve what someone thinks need to be changed about the rules. The submission can be as short as people like. We are just trying to capture the feel and mood for the issues related to this topic.

Chairman

I ask the witnesses to address my question on the Punch and Judy divisive approach.

Ms Celene Craig

It is a somewhat difficult question. We referred to our code of fairness, impartiality and objectivity. It is ultimately for the broadcasters to look at the approach to programming and that structure once they are broadly adhering to the code. There is a kind of a development process in all of this around building the expertise and understanding what the issues are that need to be addressed. It is not just about finding a simple balance but, rather, being able to interrogate statements and points that are being advocated by one party or another. The quality of coverage is very difficult. Obviously, all of the broadcasters are aiming for a high quality.

There is a reality around ratings, and they are obliged to balance a range of issues and deal with a whole swathe of issues that are impacting in their local area, as is evidenced by the popularity, for example, of mid-morning radio programmes and some of our late-night current affairs TV programmes. They are the realities of what they are trying to deal with as well. What we hope is that over time and through sectoral learning and development and the type of programmes that were undertaken with DCU, knowledge, expertise and practices can be shared within the sustainability network. In addition, we must start to become more creative about the way programmes are made. Our hope is that over time a real expertise is developed within the broadcasting sector, and that it can deliver good quality and meaningful content for the audiences they serve. It is a difficult one for the BAI. Once we set the standards, some of these are editorial matters and choices that are made by the broadcasters. As long as there is adherence to the code, our approach must be one of encouraging greater understanding and knowledge and allowing a developmental approach to growing their own expertise in this area.

Chairman

I will go back to the point I made at the very outset about looking at how it is working on an annual basis. There is only so much the BAI can do with respect to guiding the sector, but there is probably a significant piece of ongoing research to track how it is going on a year-to-year basis. Perhaps it is for a third party, like the team in DCU, to do it. It is the kind of thing it would look at. It is critical so that we can see we are going in the right direction. I acknowledge that the BAI's hands are tied to some extent.

Ms Celene Craig

We have worked closely with academics in all of these areas. I hope that perhaps under coimisiún na meán, where there will be a strategic research unit, there should be a good opportunity perhaps to look at some of these strategic points as well, supported by research into some of the areas the committee members have raised here today.

Chairman

I thank Ms Craig. Does Senator Higgins want to come in for the final round?

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Very briefly. I am happy if a written note is provided to follow up. I was very interested in the Albert carbon calculator that was mentioned and the idea of production. One of the points is a reduction in the carbon footprint of audiovisual production and the audiovisual sector. Does that include the digital broadcast sector, given that there is a lot of difference between things being streamed at different levels? There are choices within the digital energy imprint in terms of broadcasting, as well as in production. Do the witnesses have any more information on that? I refer to the impact of this industry itself, rather than the impact of its content, production, broadcasting and streaming in terms of trying to reduce carbon footprints in those areas. I appreciate that the witnesses have very limited time to respond now so they could do it in writing. I am very interested in that also.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Certainly, it is an initiative that is growing. It is part of the Screen Greening Coalition, which is overseeing it. The key players there are the national television broadcasters, Screen Producers Ireland, Fís Éireann - Screen Ireland, the BAI and other parties. It is something that is growing and evolving. For example, TG4 has mandated that all programmes it makes will be certified using the Albert carbon calculator. It is being very actively used in Virgin Media and in RTÉ. A lot of the work has been driven by Screen Producers Ireland. It was its initiative and the Screen Greening Coalition itself is chaired by John Gormley, who has a keen interest in sustainability, as we are aware. We are looking at how to grow and improve that initiative in the second half of this year. We are probably going to have to look at a different funding model in order to expand it. There may be a role for coimisiún na meán in terms of putting it on a national statutory basis.

It is also worth noting that Screen Ireland is very actively engaging on this. As I understand it, it is looking to mandate its use as part of its funding as well. It is still at a reasonably early stage, but it is going to have to expand. The Screen Greening Coalition is looking at how that can be done. Funding will be an important part of that as well, or certainly very useful. We can send on some additional details. I recommend that Senator Higgins could contact Screen Producers Ireland, which is overseeing the project.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I thank Mr. McLoughlin.

Ms Stephanie Comey

I might just that as part of our sectoral learning and development programme, where we fund a variety of networks for learning and development initiatives, we have done exactly what Senator Higgins was looking for on how to make the process of programme making cleaner and greener. A number of our grant recipients ran webinars and training courses aiming to upskill their constituents in that particular field. We do it from inside as opposed to content, if Senator Higgins knows what I mean. I can come back with further detail on that.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I thank Ms Comey very much. That is very interesting.

Ms Celene Craig

I might add to that. We might supply more details around the ways in which sound and vision might evolve, not just in terms of the example we gave earlier of the focused climate action round but also in terms of that ability to try to prompt and encourage people through asking them to set out proposals around the way in which production might have a green impact. We can set out some more detail about what the further potential might be in the future.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I thank Ms Craig.

Chairman

I thank Senator Higgins. We would very happily receive anything the witnesses want to send in. We will circulate it to the members. It will help us with the formation of a report we will do on this series of sessions. We had some academics in last week and we have heard from today's witnesses but, unfortunately, we did not have the Press Council. We have written to the Press Council to express our disappointment that its representatives did not come in. We are very appreciative to the witnesses for giving us their time today. It has been a very interesting and engaging session that gives us a lot to think about. It leads us nicely into next week's session, which will be attended by representatives of the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland and RTÉ. We will also hear from two bodies based in London: Purpose Disruptors, which is very interested in advertising, and Client Earth, which looks at the legal issues around media and climate.

We are over time for this session. The Minister has arrived for the next session, so I will suspend the meeting for a moment to allow the witnesses to leave. I thank them for coming. I look forward to receiving any information they can send in to us that will inform our report, which we will conclude in the spring time.

Sitting suspended at 1.08 p.m. and resumed at 1.09 p.m.