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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 15 Apr 2003

Vol. 1 No. 21

EU Presidency: Report of Advisory Committee.

I welcome Mr. David Begg, chairman of the advisory group which prepared this report for the committee on Third World issues and making these a priority during Ireland's EU presidency. He is accompanied by Ms Bríd Rosney and Mr. Noel Dorr, members of the advisory group, and Ms Dympna Hayes, who acted as secretary. I believe Dr. FitzGerald is on the way and we have received apologies from Mr. David Andrews, the other member of the group.

I thank Mr. Begg for taking on the onerous task as its chairman and the advisory group for giving their time and expertise in bringing this report before the committee. I note from reading the report the way in which the group went about compiling it. It looked for added value and for what can realistically be done during our Presidency. There is little point in setting objectives that cannot be reached. However, from reading the report, it seems that the objectives set are important and can be reached. I realise that all the members of the group were busy with other work during this period and am grateful to them for giving their time. Their public service is very much appreciated.

I ask Mr. Begg to take us through some opening comments on the report. We can then have questions and answers and deal with the recommendations.

Mr. David Begg

As a group, we were very privileged to be asked by the committee to advise in this important matter. It was a great honour for me to work with such distinguished colleagues. I take this opportunity to particularly thank Ms Dympna Hayes and the Department of Foreign Affairs for all the assistance she gave us in the course of our work. We were fortunate in that we had very good co-operation and access in pursuing our investigations from the NGO community in Ireland, the officials of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Commissioners Patten and Neilson in the European Commission. We also had the opportunity to meet with Mr. James Wolfensohn, president of the World Bank, and with Mrs. Mary Robinson. In a relatively short space of time, due to fortuitous circumstances, we were able to consult a fairly wide range of people.

The terms of reference the committee gave us are set out in the report and I will not go through them again. However, we interpreted them as requiring us to seek to identify a small number of practical initiatives that would add value. In the construction of the report, chapters one to five seek to explain how the system for the delivery of development co-operation and development aid actually works in practice. The committee will probably notice in today's newspapers that in the work of the Convention on the Future of Europe there is a proposal to change that structure a little and to have one foreign minister in Europe where there are currently three commissioners to some extent involved in this particular area. That may or may not develop but it is an interesting point to note in passing.

In chapter six of the report, we try to analyse a wide range of options that we could consider as possible priorities that Ireland might adopt. We analysed a wide range of options because people looking at the report when it is finished might well ask whether we looked at this or that option. We felt that we should trawl as widely as possible, examine the options and then give the reasons we did or did not include each of those.

There were some obvious ones which people will look at and say should have been included - I am thinking particularly of the area of coherence of aid policy, with particular reference to agricultural subsidies. The reason that was not included in our final recommendations had nothing to do with any assessment of its importance but simply that the agenda at Doha and the World Trade Organisation would be so far advanced by the time that we entered the EU Presidency that it would difficult to approach it as a new initiative.

In chapter seven, we have attempted to set out a number of practical recommendations that we think the committee could usefully consider and might forward one or all of to influence Ireland's EU Presidency. We noted in that chapter that there is no magic bullet or single thing that can be latched onto it. We cannot say that if we pursued one particular thing vigorously it would make a huge difference. We would have liked to have been able to say that but felt it was not possible. There are, therefore, a number of recommendations.

I draw the committee's attention to a point which was made during our inquiries, which was that the period when Ireland assumes the EU Presidency will be one of great change. The accession countries will take up their positions and there will be a new Parliament and a new batch of commissioners. Commissioner Patten, who presumably has a reasonably good insight into how these things work, made the point that there might be marginal enthusiasm for new ideas. I suppose it is a restriction and a difficulty that Ireland might face when it assumes the Presidency.

The advisory group focused its recommendations on removing impediments to the achievement of the millennium development goals. I refer to about six development priorities - critical objectives that need to be achieved if we are to tackle seriously the problem of world poverty and deprivation - that were adopted two or three years ago, to be achieved over a period of 15 years. The group did not attempt to ask what would be a good thing to do, given that the objectives and goals have been agreed, but to examine the impediments to achieving the goals. It is no harm to note that the international development community works on the basis of the comprehensive development framework. Each country is supposed to develop poverty reduction strategy papers, which will form the basis of co-ordinated action on the part of all donors and NGOs acting in an individual country.

The first impediment to the achievement of the development goals identified by the advisory group was an obvious one - a lack of funding. All countries have had the goal of allocating 0.7% of GNP as overseas development assistance for over 20 years, but it has never been achieved, other than by certain Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands. The average contribution, generally speaking, is around 0.3% or 0.4%. I think Ireland is at the higher end of that scale. We felt it might be useful, as part of the Monterrey process, for the Government to place a particular focus on this area and to try to encourage and exhort our colleagues in other member states to increase funding to a level closer to 0.7%. It goes without saying that Ireland would not have much credibility in pursuing such an objective if we could not show convincingly that we are committed to meeting the target.

I am sure the committee is aware that the Government intends to achieve the 0.7% target by 2007, but interim targets or milestones are absent. The Government's promise lacks some credibility because if one does not significantly increase funding each year, one will have a balloon payment in the final year which will be huge and impossible to achieve. Ireland should strive to meet its goal, but the Government needs to make a more convincing commitment to that end.

The second priority that was identified is one that is specifically mentioned in the terms of reference - the question of HIV and AIDS. This matter was dealt with in considerable detail in the bulk of the report. The third appendix to the report sets out some of the key issues that affect this area and outlines some of the difficulties that may be encountered. The advisory group made two recommendations in this regard. The first of these was that the EU could usefully review its policy on this area with a view to mainstreaming it. HIV-AIDS is seen as a health issue at the moment, rather than as a broad development issue. We feel that a holistic approach to this area should be adopted by the Commission.

While HIV-AIDS is a particularly enormous and appalling catastrophe in sub-Saharan Africa, it has not been remarked on to a great extent that it is a developing problem in eastern Europe, India and China. As eastern Europe is on our doorstep, it is something of which we should be aware. The document we have distributed to the committee mentions, in a footnote, a report that was produced in a foreign affairs journal during the year. The report details the statistics associated with the HIV-AIDS phenomenon. Apart from the human impact, the economic impact of this problem on eastern Europe is also discussed. The advisory group felt, in the context of enlargement, that the EU should turn its attention to this matter.

The next heading considered by the advisory group was that of governance. Poor quality governance and bad governance are not necessarily the same thing. Weak governance can result from a range of things, but bad governance is what it implies. A combination of these forms of governance is a huge impediment to development and the fight against AIDS. Aid is effective only if one can ensure it is deployed and used properly and honestly in any country. The group suggested that this idea should be taken on board, considered and given some emphasis.

I jumped over the question of poverty eradication, which I should have discussed. The advisory group has made recommendations in that regard. People quote statistics about the focus of the European Union's approach. It can be shown that the amount of money expended by the Union is proportionately dropping in relation to its poverty focus, but our inquiries reveal that, in absolute terms, that is not the case. Although a considerable amount of money is dedicated to poverty reduction, expenditure has grown in other areas, such as common foreign and security policy. Ireland has always taken a strong stance in relation to this matter and we intend to continue to do so, by suggesting to the Commission that poverty eradication should be at the core of what we do. We are pushing an open door in some respects because the twin pillars of the Community's development policy are poverty eradication and the integration of developing countries into the global economy. It is useful for us to try to emphasise that as much as possible.

The group also made suggestions in relation to administrative effectiveness. It suggested specifically that the European development fund, which is the main means of funding the Cotonou agreement, which relates to ACP countries, should be a formal part of the EU's budgetisation programme. The fact that the fund is not part of the programme at present means that there is a drift from the scrutiny by the European Parliament. It is not treated by the Parliament with the same transparency as the rest of the funding.

There is another area, apart from budgetisation, which we did not have the time or resources to examine in great detail. It was suggested to us that the EDF programme is inflexible and that it is hard to effect changes to respond to changing conditions. It is possible, for instance, to respond in such a manner in the Tacis and Phare programmes in eastern Europe. It was pointed out to us at European level that the EDF fund is very rigid and that a great deal of negotiation is needed before changes can be effected. The fact that up to €10 billion has not been spent or, to be technically correct, has not been drawn down, is evidence of this.

It would be a useful administrative measure to bring the European development fund programme under the budget by making administrative changes. The Commission does not become involved in implementing programmes - perhaps it feels that the best thing to do is to use other people, such as NGOs and contractors, in that regard. We suggested that a limited implementation role for the Commission might be quite good, from an administrative viewpoint, as it would gain a great deal of useful knowledge. When one is expending the amount of money being spent by the Commission, it is important that one builds up an institutional knowledge of what works and what does not work. That is preferable to having the knowledge escape or being dependent on one's engagement with other actors.

The last specific recommendation is to increase global leverage. The Commission spends more than 50% of the total development assistance in the world and is very much the world's largest contributor of development and humanitarian aid. We were surprised to note that despite this and in terms of engagement with the Bretton Woods institutions, which are also key players in this area, the Commission does not have independent standing. Individual countries are part of the IMF and World Bank structures in different constituencies. Ireland, for example, is in the same constituency as Canada and Caribbean countries. However, the EU itself does not have a standing which constitutes a major political question in the context of the future of Europe. The practical effect of an engagement in its own right by the EU in these institutions would be an ability to exert a much stronger influence.

There are things Ireland can do in the context of the entry of the ten new countries to the EU. These countries do not, by and large, have a tradition of development assistance or programmes or policies in the area. Ireland is well placed to advise and assist these countries in that regard.

On completion of our report, we became aware of an information technology initiative which Ireland is engaged in at United Nations task force level. The e-schools initiative is very much based on the idea of using new technology to achieve development. The idea is very seductive because it has the potential to jump several generations of technology and to achieve great things in education. We were not in a position to make a definitive recommendation on the programme, but we noted that while it had great potential, there were practical matters which might impede its ultimate success. These issues are associated with the depleted state of infrastructure in many developing countries.

Making the initiative work would require a degree of sophistication in wireless technology which does not exist currently. It must be asked if money would be better spent on advancing the fundamentals of literacy, numeracy and basic education rather than on something like this. There is also the problem of managing the programme in the longer term as this would require a very significant commitment from its sponsors. The big challenge is to find a way to operationalise the concept rather than to say the concept itself is not viable. Much study of the initiative is required but it is worth watching and may go forward anyway.

There are a number of appendices to our report. I mentioned appendix 3 which deals with HIV and AIDS while others address the breakdown of the EU budget for external relations in terms of how it is spent in percentages. Appendix 1 deals with the joint statement of the Commission and the Council in November 2002 on development policy and appendix 4 outlines the mechanisms for political dialogue with Africa. Africa and south Asia are very much the focus of any strategy of poverty eradication.

The world has moved on since we submitted our report. Things have changed with the war on Iraq and it must be asked what it means for Europe's cohesion and for the United Nations. My distinguished colleague, Mr. Noel Dorr, is well placed to offer a view on the matter, but these factors were not at issue when the report was being compiled. It is as well to note that the report may be deficient from that point of view.

We are very pleased to have had the opportunity to complete this work for the committee and we hope it may be of some assistance in framing whatever recommendations it eventually decides to bring forward through the Government during the Presidency in 2004.

I thank Mr. Begg. Any day we have a group consisting of a former Taoiseach, a former Minister for Foreign Affairs, a former Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs, a former adviser to the former President and High Commissioner for Human Rights and the Secretary General of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is a very good day for this committee. The cumulative experience of these people and the fact that they had a very experienced secretary in Ms Dympna Hayes has resulted in a practical report. We have recommendations which we might make towards the end of the meeting because the report will not be of any great benefit if we do not try to progress it.

Deputy Andrews wishes to make a contribution after which I will ask some questions. However, I draw attention to paragraph 1.7 on page 19. It states that while all of these efforts must continue, it is right to recognise frankly that it is and will probably continue to be very difficult to make any real progress in combating the AIDS pandemic. The point seems to lack an element of hope and I suggest that we add the words "unless sustained efforts are made" to make the message hopeful. Perhaps that could be considered.

Mr. Begg

I take the Chairman's point. To be truthful, there was pessimism on our side. At the macro level, the lack of progress in making medicines available at reasonable prices is disappointing, but what influenced us more than anything - much of it is my own experience - is that it is hard to envisage just how debilitated or almost non-existent the infrastructure is in many developing countries. The quality of health service infrastructure needed to administer a regime of drugs is simply not there in very many cases. If one of us is asked to turn up at a clinic at 2 p.m. tomorrow we will be there, but in the developing world time is often of no consequence. In trying to administer a cocktail of drugs in a regime, one needs a health system which has some sort of structure. It is despairing in some ways to say things are so bad and I have no objection to the point the chairman makes. It probably would be wise to do as he asks because if one admits to despair, there is no chance of ever making any progress.

I thank Mr. Begg. We will add those words, if your colleagues have no objections, to take the lack of hope out of it.

I welcome the intimidatingly high-level group to the committee. Mr. Begg raised the issue of coherence during his opening comments, which is referred to on page 25 of the report. The Doha trade round may be concluded by January 2004. From my reading regarding trade talks, it strikes me that there is very little likelihood of making substantial progress in that area before the summer. Is it really likely that something will be agreed in September 2003 or prior to our Presidency? The second last paragraph on the page gives it away. It says that Ireland's credibility on this topic will present an additional difficulty. Inevitably we are talking about export subsidies and tariff barriers which we are not pleased to have to take down because of the nature of our agricultural economy.

Trade negotiations with the United States will be a major issue during the Presidency and we will leave ourselves exposed if we skirt around it. While I accept the advisory group was dealt a hand in that it had to act within the parameters of its terms of reference, which were to address the issue of development, nevertheless questions must be asked about how it teased this issue out and its reasons for not going down the road of coherence. It strikes me that we could be exposing ourselves a little on this issue, a point also made by the advisory group on page 25 of its report which states that Ireland's position on trade is not very strong.

I agree entirely with the need to set goals in terms of achieving the commitment to allocate 0.7% of GDP to development co-operation. I suggest the committee informs the Department of Finance that it is vital for Ireland's bona fides in this area that additional intermediate targets on reaching the 0.7% figure are set.

Mr. Begg

The Deputy's point is well taken. We agonised about how we would address the issue of coherence in our report. We decided not to have a starry-eyed notion that the whole issue could be concluded in short measure, but rather that the approach would be better framed by the European Union and that Ireland's negotiating stance would be better established as part of the Doha round which is scheduled for completion before Ireland assumes the Presidency. It would certainly not begin from a green field position, as it were.

The Deputy is absolutely accurate on the lack of progress. The Financial Times today features a report that the talks appear to have stalled and that a milestone which was due to have been achieved last month has been missed again. As the Deputy stated, the fact that the United States has recently gone into reverse by increasing subsidies to its agricultural industry is a difficulty. I gather the trade Commissioner, Pascal Lamy, and a representative of the United States are meeting in London this week to find out if steps can be taken to break the deadlock.

In terms of the agricultural side of this issue, the two elements of policy, subsidies and tariff barriers, are the major impediments. It has been estimated that the developed world, by instituting these policies, is costing the developing world some €30 billion each year. Counter arguments are also made on this issue, notably by the French, who argue that the fact that the vast majority of the least developed countries are currently food importers rather than exporters means that if prices on the market were to increase, these countries would suffer as a result. In my view this position resembles the cart before the horse argument in that developing countries will never be able to develop indigenous agricultural sectors until they have some prospects of being able to export. Despite the current position, ultimately some ground will have to be ceded on the issue.

We, in Ireland, are not in a position to preach to anybody on the issue of trade as we have taken a defensive position on agricultural policy. The advisory group was conscious that there would be no point making recommendations to the committee which did not have a snowball's chance in hell of being adopted or influencing the Government. As a group we tried to focus on defining propositions which had a chance of making a difference and then going down that route. There is, therefore, no disagreement between the advisory group and the Deputy on his point. We accept his criticism that by declining to take a hard and fast view on the issue, we have left ourselves open to the accusation that we are skirting around it. We were conscious of the issue, agonised over it for a long period and agreed on what we finally produced.

Mr. Noel Dorr

In support of our chairman's last point, our terms of reference refer to presenting workable and practical proposals capable of obtaining broad Oireachtas party political support. While we did not inhibit ourselves too much by this, at the same time we tried, as Mr. Begg stated, to be realistic about Ireland's position, what it may become and how credible we would be. This is the reason the reference to which the Deputy drew attention was included in the report.

This is a very important report from a number of points of view. From the point of view of this committee, it is very well put together. More importantly, it is important from the national point of view because the priorities for our Presidency of the European Union are being defined. From my extensive experience of development co-operation - I spent five years in Iveagh House with responsibility for it - it can become the poor relation in terms of priorities. By helping to move the issue centre stage the advisory group is performing a national service.

While I do not intend to go into the detail of the report, in the main I agree with its broad thrust. It is important we examine our credibility with regard to development co-operation. I do not make this point intending to criticise the current Government of the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats parties - funding allocated for this purpose has increased substantially - but we should also be honest and admit that when the pressure commenced, this area was cut as usual. While we have substantially increased funding for development co-operation, we are not maintaining the agreed all-party approach of moving towards the 0.7% target. It is important that this issue features in the report. Perhaps the committee can help to nudge the Government towards re-establishing the all-party approach, particularly the agreement on the part of the Government parties that development co-operation should not be treated as a residual item, but as a matter on which there is complete agreement on the need to allocate the amount of funding necessary to achieve the 0.7% target.

I wish to touch on the recommendations on governance. Bad governance and corruption have significantly contributed to many of the problems in the developing world. Any reasonable approach to trying to improve governance is to be supported, provided it is not based on neo-colonialism. This is the reason I strongly support the idea of a new partnership for Africa's development, in particular the recommendation in the report on the issue.

The advisory group, in recommending that Ireland make a specific contribution during our Presidency, has again touched on a subject close to my heart, namely, development education. I will finish as I began. One cannot maintain political support for what will be substantial national funding in this area without the benefit of development education. People must understand much more about the wider issue of development co-operation if they are to fully support it or press politicians to maintain funding. From this point of view, I wholeheartedly agree with the need to take a revised and revamped approach to development education which ties in neatly with our commitment to increase funding. I thank the group for a job well done.

Ms Bride Rosney

The Deputy's point ties in strongly with the point the Chairman made at the beginning, namely, the issue of added value. The bottom line is that although it is essential and, in terms of integrity, critical that we reach the figure of 0.7% of GDP within the stated timeframe, Ireland's resources and size mean that our major contribution to development co-operation is the added value we can bring. There is no doubt that in terms of education not only here, but also in the new accession states, we have good models of best practice which we can share. That is the real added value arising from our contribution to development funding. It is the extra bang for the buck we can get from it.

I thank the delegation. Like Deputy Andrews I feel a little intimidated by the weight of the group before us. I congratulate the speakers for a most concise, clear and above all honest report. As a result, we have a template document from which we can put together a case. I agree in particular with what was said in regard to the identification of impediments to the achievement of the millennium goals and the rigidity of the EDF. The money to which Mr. Begg referred that has not been drawn down is considerable and this is of concern to us. With our reputation our Presidency would be an ideal time in which to push that agenda.

I concur with those members who have expressed serious concern about the Government's approach to ODA and the commitment of 0.7%. If it is not done on a yearly basis - as was rightly pointed out - when we come to the last year it will be so substantial there will be blue murder in regard to it. This document gives the committee an opportunity to make these views clear to the Department of Finance and the Government. We will not renege on it and this should be flagged in our Presidency to ensure those issues are pushed.

I agree with the prudence that is recommended in regard to the global e-schools initiative. There is no doubt that while we have wonderful opportunities to develop, there are countries that do not even have the basic infrastructure to support this initiative which begs the question of whether this is the most prudent way to spend money in the future in developing countries.

I cannot thank the delegation enough. It is an easy report to read as it is written in language we can all understand. It will serve us well.

I have had a chance to read the report and I wish to ask a slightly politically incorrect question. I put it as a formal proposition that the European aid programme has been a farce. It has not worked and it is not effective. The fundamental criteria is that the world gap between rich and poor has widened rather than narrowed. My suggestion is that we scrap the aid programme in its entirety, pay off the European farmers in their entirety and maintain them as gardeners of rural Europe while at the same time opening up the European market to third country agricultural producers provided there is good governance and not only that there are healthy cows. I participated in anti-competition scams, and they were scams, which said that cattle coming from Botswana were not healthy. It was said that the beef cattle coming from Botswana were a threat to European health but the reality is that they were far less of a threat than BSE was to our citizens.

Is it time to tear up the whole development co-operation model and say that what we want is a market in which third countries can participate and that we will pay off our aristocratic farmers? The CAP is the last command economy in the world and like all other command economies it does not work. There is a certain irony in that the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, who is a member of the competitive Progressive Democrats, is presiding over this farce of bureaucracy.

As one might note, I am being deliberately provocative. I have been a supporter of humanitarian and other initiatives going back over many years. I was an avid supporter of the Brandt commission and the Brandt report, but if one looks at what we have done and where we are now one has to come to a conclusion. My conclusion is that the net end result is that the gap between rich and poor is wider now than it was before. The existing paradigm has not worked. If that is accepted as a conclusion, is it time to break out of the box? I believe in the empowerment of trade, cash crops and farmers growing their own trade and selling produce.

It is time for one of the richest consumer markets in the world to face up to the facts. Most of European manufacturing is migrating to China. There is not a single household appliance that is manufactured in Europe any longer, certainly in the European Union, and there will not be an automobile manufactured in western Europe within 25 years. It may be designed and sold here but it will be manufactured somewhere else. Our clothing industry has gone to North Africa and our domestic appliances come from China. Why do we have to domesticate our food?

We should take the entire European development aid package and divide it in two. One half could be used legitimately and politically to compensate our farmers - they make good gardeners. They are literally polluting the environment as we speak with excessive agricultural fertilisers. In terms of the other half, we should insist on one criteria for participation in the world market, which would be part of the WTO, and that is clean, non-corrupt good governance.

Mr. Begg

I agree with the basic proposition that we have to make this globalised economy work for everybody. Unless we do so, we are on the road to ultimate destruction. It does not seem to be sustainable in the longer term that a vast proportion of the world lives in total poverty while a minority of us live in luxury. In my experience of travelling, that is the one thing that always struck me most forcibly every time I came back to Ireland. I was inclined to say "I am not leaving again in case I am not let back in". The contrasts are enormous.

And they are getting bigger.

Mr. Begg

I take the point. Globalisation is not working and how we make it work is a big question. In fairness, it is the second pillar of European Union policy to integrate the developing countries into the global economy. That is the stated position at any rate.

In terms of the agricultural component and reflecting Deputy Andrews' point, at present the worldwide figure for aid is some $50 billion a year but we spend $350 billion in agricultural subsidies. To be almost facetious about it, we have people living on $1 a day but cows living on $7 a day. That is the position. My opinion is that this will have to end but it has to be a planned ending. If we relate it back to Ireland - I am sure my IFA colleagues would disagree vehemently with me - we ought to be planning for a situation where we are out of the Common Agricultural Policy rather than trying to fight to sustain it for as long as possible. It behoves any society to recognise that one cannot say to some of its citizens that its industry has ended and it has to pack up and tend the garden in future. We have to try to find an alternative whether it is preserving the countryside, as Deputy Quinn said, or trying to produce high quality food or something of that nature, but ultimately going down that road in a planned way. We also have to plan for the other side of that, the least developed countries which are currently importers of food. Forty of the 49 countries involved are importers of food. As I said to Deputy Andrews, the reason for this is partly that they do not have a sustainable agricultural export business. One needs to be able to arrange for that and good governance is essential.

The one thing stopping us from organising the planet in such a way that we could achieve the desired result is obviously lack of political will. Political will is a very broad thing which embraces the population of a country and concerns the willingness to engage in good governance. People have not reached the stage at which they are willing to grapple with this issue in public discourse. It will be interesting to see how it pans out in the coming years. I do not disagree with Deputy Quinn's basic proposition, which is valid, but it is a question of how we realise it.

The first thing we should say is that the emperor has no clothes and that there is a contradiction at the heart of the US and Western globalisation project, which implies that everything is open to competition except our domestic agriculture. I include Japan in this statement. If we are to acknowledge that our agricultural community is a legitimate component of our society, we could say: "We will not abandon you, we will look after you - not like the miners or the car workers in Britain who were abandoned by Mrs. Thatcher - and there will be social solidarity, but we will not allow our commitment to your social solidarity to screw up three markets." These include our domestic market, which has been polluted through intensive agriculture, the world market of globalisation and equal access and, as Mr. Begg rightly referred to, the domestic capacity of a local agri-business sector to reach a level of performance that would enable it to compete.

The implications for Ireland could be horrendous because nine out of every ten beef cows that are produced are for export. They are being dumped into the international market and they are lousy produce. They are the worst of all kine. It is the bottom end of the market. We have a serious problem and until people like us start to say this, it will not be addressed.

Getting to 0.7% of development aid in Botswana or South Africa is nonsense because these people could grow themselves into prosperity if we took our feet off their necks. It would be cheaper if we were to say to the beef farmers of Longford, "If you want to be aristocrats, we will make you aristocrats." It would be cheaper to pay them not to pollute the environment and produce sick cows. I can say that because not many beef farmers vote for the Labour Party, but we have come to that point. I am being deliberately provocative but we must ask how much BSE has cost the EU. How much did BSE and foot and mouth disease cost the Irish tourism industry? Let us get real.

That is a very interesting point and it is useful to have it on the record. However, we are talking about what we might achieve in the six months of our Presidency. The issue the Deputy is raising is very valid but we may need nine months to address it.

We should put it on the agenda.

It is an interesting point. The Official Report will show it has been raised.

Mr. Dorr

Deputy Quinn's approach is interesting. Our terms of reference state:"capable of obtaining broad Oireachtas party political support". I am sure the Deputy will crusade for those ideas with his colleagues. My heart is with him, but not in terms of the detail in relation to our farmers. Far be it from me to say anything such as he has said.

The question of EU development aid and assistance generally is not covered entirely by the question of food subsidy. Headings refer to humanitarian aid, co-financing, NGOs, democracy and human rights, the global health fund, environment and tropical forests, etc. Considerable expenditure in the Balkans amounts to nearly €1 billion. There are many other categories and I do not think the Deputy's proposal, daring as it is, would cover all the areas in which the EU is active.

Page 11 of the report states that a related point brought to the attention of the group concerns the current EDF structure, which impedes the effective achievement of its objective, and suggests that consideration should be given to the restructuring of the EDF to free up its operations by removing existing constraints to the deployment of EDF resources.

Page 15 of the report states:

Given the importance of lessons learnt for building up institutional capacity, the advisory group felt that the Commission should consider taking on a limited direct operational role principally in order to build institutional knowledge of what works in practice on the ground and to build the capacity to scale up development activities.

Will Mr. Begg or one of his colleagues deal with these points?

Mr. Begg

With regard to the EDF, Commissioner Patten made the point that the EDF structure is very rigid and very hard to change. There are 70 countries in the ACP group which are the beneficiaries of EDF moneys, which are provided for by individual countries rather than by the Commission as a body. To change the contractual relationship of the agreement governing this is very difficult and takes a very long time. If the Commission feels that it would be better to move in a certain direction and that a change in response or emphasis is needed, it can take six to nine months of negotiation with a range of countries among the 70 to make such a change. This contrasts with the Commission's position in respect of the Balkans or eastern Europe, which involves a very flexible arrangement that allows it to change instantly.

One reason we were a little reticent about making any definite recommendation was that we felt, in good conscience, we wanted to talk to some of the countries that would be the beneficiaries to see if they had a different perspective on the matter and to see how they felt about giving more flexibility to the Commission to alter the position on funding. Commissioner Patten felt very strongly that the rigidity of the structure was a restriction. We took it on board as something we should mention.

The operational role was not brought to our attention but we observed it ourselves. The Commission dispenses and accounts for money but does not implement any of its programmes itself. It may be that this is a very efficient way of doing things but it does not afford it any institutional or first-hand knowledge of what works and what does not. It depends on the recipients of the money. If the programme is implemented by an NGO, for example, it will provide feedback but there will be no first-hand knowledge of whether money is being used effectively. We felt that if the Commission could involve itself in implementation to some degree, it would build up a core of institutional knowledge that would allow it to be more authoritative in its own decisions on spending money and how to move quicker in terms of scaling up the pace of development.

I have worked with Concern for a number of years and institutional knowledge is one of the most valuable things in the organisation. It knows how to do things. It knew how to dispense food in a famine stricken country. If there was significant rotation of staff, the expertise drifted off and no effort was made to capture the knowledge, some day the organisation would not know what to do and might make a big mistake. We felt that was a deficiency in the current EU make up.

I wish to record my gratitude to the advisory group for the work it has put into this paper. We will pursue it with a view to having it implemented during our Presidency. Even if we do not make progress in that regard, it is a good paper that we could pursue in other areas of parliamentary life.

Will the Government be overwhelmed with great constitutional issues, an intergovernmental conference, the Convention on the Future of Europe and the assimilation of the new member states into EU structures? Surely they will take an enormous amount of effort during our Presidency. To what extent has the Government committed itself to taking on personal agendas? Given the overwhelming task that faces our Presidency, can we realistically pursue the suggestions this paper makes?

Mr. Begg

I thank the Deputy for his comments. The point was made to us that such things are more difficult at times of great change and we were told there might be a marginal interest in taking new ideas on board. It is hard to judge from our remove. One would want to be part of the political system that operates there to know how far it could go. In addressing the terms of reference, we knew there was no point proposing ideas that are beyond the capacity of the Commission to absorb during the six months of a Presidency.

Every Presidency will expect some initiatives to be taken in a range of areas. I presume the Commission cannot close shop completely on the basis of the new countries coming in and some effort will have to be made. While I think it is an extra problem and will debilitate the ability of the Government to put issues on the agenda and secure change, there must be scope to have some things done. The challenge for members is to select what they think the Government might reasonably drive.

I want to bring this to a conclusion with some recommendations. There are one or two minor typographical adjustments that need to be made to the report and I want to add the five words, by agreement. Is it agreed to leave it the Clerk and me to make those minor adjustments? Agreed.

I propose that the joint committee can accept the recommendations presented: the UN target for the relevant funding; the HIV-AIDS recommendation; poverty eradication; good governance; reform of Union funding for development; greater international role via development aid; and closer co-operation between member states, particularly in new accession states. On behalf of the committee I would like to add the following recommendations: that the Intergovernmental Conference, if it takes place during our Presidency, should ensure that EU development policy has an advanced status in the treaty; Dáil and Seanad time should be sought to debate the report and the record of today's meeting should be appended to the report; that we invite the Minister to meet the committee to discuss the report; that we lay the report before both Houses of the Oireachtas; and that we put the report on our website. Are these recommendations agreed?

In normal circumstances, such a proposal may be circulated among Members before a committee meeting so that we can consider the implications of it.

It will be circulated. This report is dated 4 February, the Dáil recess will come in July and we need to find a morning for debate in the Dáil. There is nothing serious in the recommendations we have made; it is simply a matter of meeting with the Minister to discuss this and getting time in the Dáil to debate it.

On this occasion there is not anything in the recommendations to which we could not agree.

Are the recommendations agreed to? Agreed. I thank Mr. Begg, Ms Rosney and Mr. Dorr. I also thank Mr. David Andrews and Dr. Garret FitzGerald in their absence. I thank Ms Dympna Hayes for the work that has been put into this report. These are busy people and they completed this report in a tight timeframe. I also appreciate the time they have given here today. It has been an interesting public service. We will see what we can do about advancing the issues that have been raised. I thank them for the service they have given to the Oireachtas in putting this report together.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.57 p.m. and adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 April 2003.

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