I oppose the Bill. I do so because I am convinced it is a bad Bill and that it will have very injurious effects both on the financial standing of this country and our social services as well. I hold that there has been no case made out for the Bill, or no sound reason advanced as to why this change should take place. I do not hold that the present councils are perfect. Very few things are perfect in this world. The present councils have their drawbacks, but I do hold that the suggested change is not going to be of advantage to the State. I know very well that there are very undesirable members on every public board but, taking the public boards of the Saorstát as a whole, I feel that they have not been a failure. I, as one of the oldest members of a public board in this country, am proud of the record and the action public boards have taken. From their very inception down to the present day, they have taken a manly, determined, and national part in our fight for freedom and also in discharging their duties in an honourable way to the people who elected them.
The argument is advanced by some members of the Executive Council that the public boards in this country have not a national outlook. I dispute that and I hold that that statement is wrong. From the very inception of these boards, when the English Parliament was forced to give some form of Government in this country, and when the public boards were manned by inexperienced men—men who had no training, men who had been all their lives struggling for freedom—the manner in which they fulfilled their duties even brought praise from a hostile Government. The way these boards conducted their business paved the way and was the forerunner of the agitation for the Home Rule movement. We are asked again, why not entrust the local government of this country to young men such as those who defeated the Black and Tans, who defeated conscription, and who did their part manfully in the fight for freedom? I hold that the public boards of this country did their part in the fight for national freedom just as well as the men who had guns in their hands. We were asked to take up the fight with the English Local Government Board and defeat it by every means in our power, to defeat that Board and to carry on local government in this country at the same time. Some of us, I admit, never fired a shot in the fight for freedom, but I hold that we stood in more danger than the men who had guns in their hands and could defend themselves.
I, as chairman of the county council of my native county, never failed to attend a meeting of that council during the whole time of the agitation and I hold that I stood in more danger than the man who had a gun in his hand and could defend himself. I never shirked my duty from the day instructions were received to carry on the fight and by every means in our power to defeat the powers arrayed against us. At the time when the fight came on with the Black and Tans we did our part. We stood and defended the rights of our citizens. I hold that this Government are taking a very serious step. Local government is a very important matter in the country. I well remember the time when we were in difficulties and when we were faced with a situation in which it was nearly impossible to carry on the finances of our county. We were forced to come here to Dublin to seek advice and if possible assistance. When we approached the then Minister for Local Government, the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins, he said: "Local government must be carried on. It is the backbone of the whole movement, therefore it must be carried on." We realised that and we made renewed efforts to carry on that government and we succeeded. The same thing applies to-day, that it is very important for the present Government that local government should be carried on and carried on successfully.
I have no fault to find with the young people of this country; all credit to them. They are a fine trustworthy body but I hold that local government requires experience, training and a sense of responsibility. We are told that the young people are quite competent to take up local government and exercise its functions. I do not agree. I hold that it takes experience and commonsense and long years of training to carry on a system of local government which will be successful. Agriculture is in a very serious position in this country at the present time. Local government also is in a very serious position. Agriculture can bear a certain amount of expenditure but once you exceed that amount the whole thing, to my mind, will collapse. The council I represent has been at the very head of local government bodies in the State in the matter of the collection of rates during this period. Why does it stand at the head? Simply because the members of the county council weighed up the situation and they took into account all the local services they were bound to provide for.
We struck our rate accordingly, and we were able to collect our rate and we have had the highest percentage of rate collection in the State. We never shirked our responsibilities. We recognised that we had a duty to perform to the people we represented and that we were bound to keep the social services of the State running and we also recognised our responsibilities to the poor and the unemployed of the district. I, for one, will certainly never forget the services that Labour performed for us when we were fighting for freedom. The services of Labour, from the days of the Land League down to the present day, have been on behalf of agriculture and they deserve our everlasting gratitude and I certainly will always recognise that and will do what I possibly can to relieve unemployment and to assist the suffering people of this country. We are now about to give the franchise to all the young people of this country. I hold that that is not right. I think that, after all, property has its proper rights. I hold no brief for the people here on my left. I have fought them when fighting was to be done, but I do hold that they have certain rights in this country and that they should have a certain say in the government of this country. They pay 50 per cent of the rates of my county and, up to the passing of this Act, they have had about 20 or 25 per cent. of representation. Under the new proposal, they will have 15 per cent. and I think that is not fair. They pay 50 per cent. of the rates and they employ a large amount of labour and I, therefore, think that that is not a fair percentage. I certainly would not like to see the policy that our friends on the other side advocated when we were fighting against them put into operation and I would be sorry to see practised what other people practised before us and to see them denied their rights in this country. I say that they are entitled to those rights and, so long as they are faithful servants of this State, I should like to see them used for the benefit of the State and not expelled from the country.
It is argued that when the vote is given in respect of Parliamentary elections, it should be given for local government elections, but I hold that they are two different things. I hold that our duties are administrative duties, duties that we perform for the general good of the community, and they are subject only to the approval of the Minister for Local Government. The electors who have votes for Parliamentary elections have control over all administration through their representatives, and the two are quite different. The local government vote affects the local interests of a county, and every interest in that county, while the other is a wider and more extended interest. We are told, of course, that the Government contributes a very large amount to local taxation. They do, but the local bodies contribute more. Take the case of County Monaghan. Our gross rate is £121,000, agricultural grants being £16,000 and urban rates £5,000. We contribute from the rates £65,000 and from the agricultural grant £10,000. It is, of course, only fair to state that the credit notes, amounting to about £10,000, are not included in that. There are also the grants from the Central Fund towards motor taxation which would reduce the other grant considerably because it is contributed locally.
I hold that this is not a question between the rival sections here. I am not in favour of this Bill because it is a Party Bill, and I am sorry to see the Party question brought into almost everything in this and in the other House. I deplore it and it is very annoying to me because I felt that, when we got a Government of our own, we would all unite and try to make that Government a success. We were told about the patriotism of this country, but I am afraid that patriotism is a thing of the past and that jealousy is far more dominant in this State to-day. I am sorry to make that statement, but I am afraid it is true. I feel that this is also another barrier to the unity of our country. We have all heard a good deal about the Border, but when our friends across the Border, who are paying no rates at present, learn that the youth of the country are going to get control of the local affairs of the country, it will be no encouragement for them to join with us here in a united Ireland. There are other black spots, but this is the blackest spot in the whole Treaty, and I feel that this attempt to place the local government affairs in the hands of the young people of the country will have a very bad effect on the unity of the country. We have heard a lot from the leaders on the different sides about unity, and I say that one is as bad as the other in that respect. We are told that the only hope of unity in this country is good government on this side, but I fear that this is not tending in that direction. I regret it because, to my mind, our people across the Border have been very badly treated. We seem to have forgotten them altogether. There are 500,000 of our people there who are getting very little consideration.
I feel, as I have said, that this is a bad Bill. I am not going to introduce the economic question because it has been discussed time after time but, for one reason or another, agriculture is in a very bad position at present and we will have to be very careful if there is not to be a real collapse. I represent an agricultural constituency and I say, without fear of contradiction, that there is no demand for an extension of the franchise from the agricultural people of the county I represent. Senator O'Rourke, in describing the councils to-day, said that we, in our council, had a majority of Fianna Fáil supporters. Politics have been excluded from the deliberations of our council, I might add, and we have a resolution on the books forbidding the introduction of politics, but Senator O'Rourke, in his statement, was altogether wrong. I think I am safe in saying that the majority of that council would not be in favour of that policy but, to their credit, they have never interfered, they never passed a resolution during all this trouble and never, so far as I know, hampered the Government in any way in the policy they thought it well to adopt. I am afraid that the remarks I have made have been very rambling and not very much to the point but, at the same time, I feel very strongly that this Bill is not a suitable Bill for the people of this country and that the young people are not prepared for this responsibility. We are told that the young people would have better views as to the spending of money than their fathers and mothers. I am afraid that this Bill will have an injurious effect because the young people of 21 years of age will side-track their fathers and mothers and say: "We have as good a right here and as much power as you have" and will soon tell them to stand aside. It has been stated by some Senators that the fathers and mothers control the votes of the young people in this country. I wish that were so and I should be very glad if it were so but I am afraid that it is not so. I am afraid that the young people, when they get that power will exercise it and that the spending powers of the local bodies will be exceeded very much.
The last Senator who spoke said that the county council meetings were very badly attended. That is not my experience. I have a long experience and I have found that the members of the county councils take a great interest in their work and that there was never any difficulty in securing a quorum at our meetings, which were always well attended. I think it is also greatly to the credit of the members that they can hold different political opinions. They can go into the meetings of the county council and discuss the affairs of the county and, when a question arises affecting their own districts, it is not unusual to see my friend on the right—and I think the House knows his politics —and another great friend of mine, who is not here, but who holds equally strong views on the other side, "colloging" together as to how best they can benefit their own district and, very often, leaving the council chamber, if not arm in arm, in close contact with each other. That is the spirit that should prevail and politics should be excluded altogether from county councils. I am sorry for keeping the House so long but I should like to say that I think that most of the county councils have found the Minister, whom we all admire, a most agreeable man to deal with and anxious in every way to help them so far as local government is concerned, but statements have been made that the county councils were interfering in political matters and, also, that they had interfered with the proper carrying out of the policy of this Government. Some few county councils may have done that but I must say that the majority of them have not done it. We all recognise that the rates have to be paid but, surely, we should recognise the ability of the ratepayers to pay and strike a rate accordingly. I oppose the Bill not for any political reason but for the reason that I am convinced that it is a bad Bill and will have an injurious effect on the welfare of this State.