Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Nov 1988

Vol. 121 No. 4

Adjournment Matter. - Hirschfeld Centre, Dublin.

Mr. Norris

I wish to propose that funds from the national lottery be made available as a matter of urgency for the rebuilding of the Hirschfeld Centre in Dublin recently destroyed by fire. I hope to be uncharacteristically brief, because I have been asked by a number of Senators from all sides of the House if they may have some time. So, I wish to speak for eight minutes and yield two minutes to Senator Jack Fitzsimons, Fianna Fáil Senator Shane Ross, Independent, Senator Catherine Bulbulia, Fine Gael, Senator Brian O'Shea, the Labour Party, Senator John Robb, the Taoiseach's nominee, and Senator Joe O'Toole, Independent.

I would like to say, first of all, that I approach this important matter in a non-triumphalist fashion. The fact that there has recently been a European court judgment in my favour is a coincidence. I do not wish this to be seen in any sense as a particularly controversial or sensational request for lottery funding. I also think it appropriate that it should come to this House because although I have kept aside from the recent political controversy about the dispersal of lottery funds I believe that all parties agree that the Oireachtas has an advisory role in this matter.

The Hirschfeld Centre was founded in 1979. It was opened on St. Patrick's Day, the official opening being performed by Dr. Noel Browne, former Minister for Health. Dr. Browne has a celebrated memory in this country because of his campaign against TB. We are now fighting a comparable battle against a disease called AIDS and one of the important elements of the work of the Hirschfeld Centre was spearheading the fight against AIDS. Responsible people, including prominent politicians, have paid tribute to the vital role played by the Hirschfeld Centre in forming a focus from which the gay community could fight back against this infection. The centre is called after a very celebrated German doctor who formed an institute for the study of sexual science and was persecuted by Adolf Hitler. It was the first such centre in the world to be established but there are now two in Germany.

It was financed originally by money provided by myself. It was inevitably under-capitalised and the income required to keep the place going was generated by running discotheques. Upon this revenue we paid VAT and other taxes and I have before me details of the tax paid by the Hirschfeld Centre amounting currently to £107,300.89p. I make the point that we are not looking for anything extraordinary; we are heavy taxpayers, our operation has always been above-board.

The kind of services we provide are a telephone counselling service which operates in consultation with the Samaritans. The statistics on calls are revealing. From 1974 to 1979 there were 3,992; from 1979 to 1980 there were 1,556; from 1980 to 1981 there were 1,716; in 1981-82, 1,953; 1982-83, 1,426; 1983-84, 2,293; 1984-85, 3,088; 1985-86, 3,703; 1986-87, 4,427; 1987-88, 3,733 — the first year in which there was a decline as a result of a disastrous fire that occurred almost a year ago to this day. This has deprived the gay community of an extremely important asset, something that provides a positive environment in which people can come to terms with themselves.

We also provide a service known as parents' inquiry in which the parents of young people who are discovered to be gay can deal with the trauma they face as parents. Again, this has been welcomed by social workers, by religious leaders of all denominations and by a number of politicians.

The centre was open to gay and non-gay people and we had distinguished visitors from all sections of the community and from all religious persuasions. I think it important also to point out that last week the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights passed unanimously a motion recommending that the Minister should spend lottery money in this way. I make the point that lottery money has been made available to community groups. We are a real such community in the country.

The Dublin Hirschfeld Centre operates as a national focus, not just for people in Dublin but for people throughout the entire country. When I place on record that an application of the Kinsey statistics, the survey conducted in America in the forties which has since been justified in every other country in which such survey was done, indicates that 10 per cent of the adult male population and between 4 per cent and 6 per cent of the adult female population are homosexual, I think the Minister will have to agree with me that we are talking about a very sizeable group of people. Nevertheless the result of the discrimination that has traditionally existed, not just in this country — and I do think the Irish are a fair-minded, decent and tolerant people — has led to a situation where I am one of the very few people who are publicly visible in this role.

I appeal to the Minister to consider this request in the most positive light. I do so not speaking merely as a representative of gay people, because I am not merely such: they represent 10 per cent of my electorate, only 10 per cent. I am sure the House will accept that I have spoken on a wide number of issues and have treated this House with seriousness and with dignity but I also feel I must speak out on behalf of my own people who have had, up to this, no other voice but mine. I ask not for positive discrimination but only for the kind of support that every other community in this country gets and, particularly, I place it in context when I point out that an application of the most modest understanding of Kinsey's statistics indicates that there are three times the number of gay people in this country as there are members of the various Protestant churches combined. It would be unacceptable to discriminate against, indeed not to foster, this minority. I believe it would be unacceptable not to receive into the full fold of the community this community, the gay community, who also have had some severe problems in the past.

I say this in full confidence that this is a mature Government who have taken some very wise decisions in this most sensitive area. I remind the House that the Minister for Finance, for example, has issued directives to the entire Civil Service that they shall not discriminate against people in the Civil Service who are found to be HIV positive, that they shall not discriminate against people who even have full-blown AIDS as long as they are medically fit to continue their work. The circular also states people shall not be discriminated against in their employment on the basis of sexual orientation.

It seems that the rebuilding of this very valuable community resource which has saved the country money by inhibiting the spread of disease and has saved people from despair, from suicide, from loneliness, and not just gay people but also their parents, should be supported by this method of funding. I have detailed figures. I made an application to the lottery on 17 October 1986. I have further detailed costings which I can supply to the Minister. The cost of rebuilding the centre, at the lowest possible cost, is £118,336.

I said I would be brief. I am very honoured that so many of my colleagues wish to speak this evening but there is not time for all of them. I have asked a representative selection to join with me in urging this motion on the Minister and I have allotted them two minutes each.

Mr. Fitzsimons

There is not much I can say in two minutes but I support this motion mainly for two reasons. First, I am a member of the Joint Committee on Women's Rights. This committee is concerned with discriminatory attitudes against minority groups and has agreed to consider the position of the gay community in this country. Secondly, in my own makeshift way and whenever the occasion arose I hope I have made it clear that I am totally committed to a pluralist society. Therefore, I welcomed warmly Senator Norris' success at the European Court of Human Rights. I admire his courage and dedication. I feel in a sense that perhaps I have greater feeling for the many people who do not have the courage or the intellectual capacity of Senator Norris and who find themselves in this minority position. I am sure his achievement has given them courage and hope.

Apart from the problem of AIDS, in the context of this motion alone we should do everything possible to make a positive contribution. I ask the Minister to be as generous as possible. While this may not be the opportune time, that the money may not be available in the immediate future, I ask the Minister to do whatever is possible. If the amount sought is not available, perhaps the Minister would make some gesture and be as generous as possible.

Mr. Ross

I would like to support Senator Norris' moton and to ask the Minister to consider it. I do not think it would be fair to anticipate the Minister's reply at this stage, but I think I should say that Senator Norris' motion gives the Government a great opportunity today to respond to the result of the court case in Europe last week. The Government have the chance here to give the imprimatur to an organisation, to an institution like the Hirschfeld Centre, to fight prejudice.

There are two reasons why this centre should get support. The first is, like it or not, there is still prejudice of this sort, there is still discrimination against the homosexual community in this country. This is the Government's great chance to fight that prejudice and to say that they disapprove officially of this prejudice by making a donation, not just a nominal one but a real donation, to this centre.

The second reason is the one which Senator Norris touched on himself very briefly, and that is that this centre undoubtedly provides a community service and is offering a community service like many other community services which have received Government funding. The Hirschfeld Centre and the gay community gave a lead in the fight against AIDS. This particular organisation did the Government's work in the fight against AIDS and it is still doing the Government's work in the fight against AIDS. For that reason it should be given some money for the rebuilding of the centre.

It is important for us to remember — I did not know about this and I may be one of the few Members of the Oireachtas who has been in the Hirschfeld Centre; I admire their work and the atmosphere there — that they run a parents inquiry service. That is something I did not know about — and I suspect most Members of the Oireachtas did not know about it — but Senator Norris has proved and indicated to us that that centre is providing a community service. The Government could do the nation a service by actually giving it the imprimatur and the money and by fighting the prejudice which undoubtedly exists.

Mrs. Bulbulia

I rise to support this motion because I think the Hirschfeld Centre is worthy of Government support. Most mainstream politicians shy away from having to speak about the subject of homosexuality because they find it disturbing. I think that that is probably an attitude that is held by most people in the country. Therefore, the politicians in some way reflect that attitude of unease, uncertainty, ignorance and doubt which is held by so many. Prejudice can be dealt with in many ways, mostly by informing people and giving them knowledge, the sort of knowledge that will dispel ignorance and prejudice and bring about tolerance, understanding and insight. I also feel that the tabling of this motion gives to the Government and to many of us an opportunity to begin to open up on this subject. I know at least one parent of a homosexual and I know of the despair, anguish, bewilderment and the anger that was caused to that family when they discovered that the son was homosexual. I also know of the strength, comfort and support which they derived from the Hirschfeld Centre. It is for that reason that I support this motion and also because I recognise the contribution the homosexual community in this country have made in the area of health prevention, which has been considerable.

The Minister for Health in his contribution to the historic debate on AIDS in this Chamber acknowledged that help. Therefore, a motion calling for this minority group of people to have a centre and a community in our country so that they can continue that particular work is worth supporting. I hope the Government will find it possible to put some funds in the way of that minority group to enable them to come together in a spirit of compassion, solidarity and friendship and to continue to provide the badly needed preventive service which they have already exhibited themselves capable of providing.

I hope at some future stage we will have an opportunity to have a more comprehensive debate on this topic. The motion tonight is a very narrow one and is confined to seeking funds to support this institution. I have pleasure in adding my voice in seeking the kind of monetary support required.

Mr. O'Shea

On behalf of the Labour Party Senators, I would like to state our full support for this motion which has been most ably moved by Senator Norris. It relates to a minority group in our community, the position of whom has been given a new dignity following the long legal battle which Senator Norris brought to a successful conclusion in recent times. The Hirschfeld Centre serviced a real need in our national life. It provided a dignified and sympathetic atmosphere for a minority group. It took on board the pain not alone of the homosexual community but also provided a caring service for the traumas suffered by the families of homosexual people. Its role in facing up to the AIDS problem has been publicly acknowledged. We in the Labour Party see this project as being one most worthy of funds from the national lottery. We believe that as a nation we must face up to the reality of our homosexual community and in a true republican spirit not deny civil rights nor the means to promote dignity as full and accepted citizens. We, therefore earnestly request the Minister to respond positively to this motion as a matter of the greatest urgency.

Mr. Robb

In order to make the case we wish to make in supporting Senator Norris it is important that we do not lose sight of the difficulty that many people in the community have with regard to the whole subject of homosexuality. It would be quite ludicrous to overlook that and, in particular, in our enthusiasm to support the extremely eloquent spokesman of the gay community we must not give the impression that we are wishing to place our support for his effort on some specially elevated plateau. For that reason I was delighted to hear Senator Norris emphasise that he would be the very last to wish this for the enterprise, the Hirschfeld Centre, and for the community. He does not want to be part of anything which would involve positive discrimination; he wants the community to be treated like anyone else, to be treated fairly and given the support which is its due.

Shortly, with good fortune, we may have legislation on the Statute Book which can help to rid the gay community of all those feelings they have had for so long, feelings of ostracisations, fear and, worst of all, by a long way the fear of blackmail. It is only right that Senators should pay tribute to the great and courageous work of Senator David Norris who has done so much, so eloquently and thoroughly and preserving for such a long time, to try to render a sense of normality as citizens to the people for whom he has fought.

There was a time in Ireland when suicidal tendency may have been an indication for compulsory committal. There was a time when disease was believed to be evidence of the wrath of God. There was a time when we were silent about tuberculosis, silent about cancer. We are just about overcoming our tendency to be silent about AIDS when it comes close to people we know and members of families we know.

It is an indication that Ireland is changing for the better that we are able in this House today to deal with two subjects, the first, how the disabled were able to do so well at Seoul and, now, the possibility which is raised by this motion, of giving the opportunity to the homosexual gay community to come together in an atmosphere of friendship and support and in a place where they can be integrated into society, as is their right as equals and as fellow-citizens of the rest of us. For that reason I feel very privileged to be able to support Senator Norris' motion.

Mr. J. O'Toole

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a chur leis an méid atá ráite go dtí seo. To start with, the commitment to democracy can be gauged or measured by the way in which minorities are dealt with and allowed to participate in the democratic structure and feel part of the community. The minute somebody portrays themselves as being different, whether it be skin colour, eye colour, or sexual orientation, it immediately creates some sort of a difficulty for the majority of people. We have seen this over the years in many different ways. Tonight we discuss the Hirschfeld Centre. It is important to place on the record that the way many people feel threatened by gay rights, by gay action and by the gay community, is really a reflection on ourselves, in a way we cannot put up with or in a way we cannot countenance.

It should be put on the record of the House that the Hirschfeld Centre was subject to a bomb attack some years back and, indeed, there is a lot of evidence to support the view that the recent fire which razed it to the ground was also started maliciously. If it was started maliciously, then it was a manifestation of the prejudice which exists in our society at the moment.

Although comparisons are always odious in these kind of circumstances, I believe that when groups are seen to be in a minority they become marginalised, isolated and suffer for that reason. There is then a duty and responsibility on legislators in particular to see to it that those who are in a minority in society are properly treated and that our responsibility towards them is manifested in a positive and very definite way. Therefore, I put the case in favour and in support of the motion which calls for funds from the national lottery to be made available as a matter of urgency for the rebuilding of the Hirschfeld Centre.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Connolly)

The position as far as the amenity grant scheme is concerned is quite clear. Last November the Minister for Finance announced that £6 million was being made available from the national lottery proceeds for allocation to amenity projects proposed by local authorities and voluntary organisations. The types of projects to be assisted under the scheme included the provision and development of open spaces, an amenity in landscaping works designed to enhance the local environment, the provision of recreational facilities such as parks, outdoor playing areas, community centres and youth clubs.

Following the November 1987 announcement by the Minister for Finance, my Department wrote to the local authorities asking them to nominate suitable projects for consideration for allocations from this amount. In the event hundreds of projects were so nominated. In addition, many more requests for grants were brought to my Department's notice in written representations from Members of the Oireachtas on behalf of the promoters of particular projects. In applications made by the promoters of projects themselves, including residents' associations, community councils, local environmental groups, etc., all applications so received were taken into account in the determination of individual allocations under the scheme. By the time decisions were made on the vast majority of the allocations and the announcement of grants made in April, over 2,000 requests for grants to the value of £60 million was received in my Department.

Applications, however, continue to flow in. At a recent date over 2,500 applications had been received. We had requests for grants amounting to £82 million. In these circumstances and taking into account the fact that the total sum placed at the Minister's disposal was only £6 million, it was obvious that many applications would have to be disappointed. Nevertheless, it was possible to approve some 590 projects for grants. The full amount of £6 milion has been allocated.

In the case of the Hirschfeld Centre project, an application for an amenity grant of £100,000 to assist in the reconstruction of the centre was received in my Department on 21 October 1988. By that time all available funds has been fully allocated. In the circumstances the project, together with all other projects brought to the attention of my Department, can be considered for grant assistance only in the event of additional funds being made available. I regret to say that I am not able to give any commitment on this project or any other project at this time because all the money has been allocated throughout the country on the 590 projects. Senators will agree that the application was only received lately and we must await to see if further moneys are allocated by the Government. That is the situation.

I regret I cannot give the Senator a more favourable reply. That is the position in regard to all the applications which await funding now. I must point out that the total amount I would need to fund these projects is £18 million. They are all very good projects we would certainly like to help, but, as you can see, the problem is the size of the purse. I regret that I cannot give you a more favourable reply.

Mr. Norris

I thank the Minister for his reply. Of course I accept it. Perhaps, however, he will agree with me that this is highly unusual in the sense that the Oireachtas, which I think has some role in the matter, has spoken clearly through the Upper House. It is most unusual in my experience that there should be such a high degree of consensus backing this request. I have attended many debates, but I have never attended one in which representatives of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour, the Independent Senators and the Taoiseach's nominees have all spoken.

I accept, of course, the Minister's difficulties with regard to the sums. Of course, the application for funding was made very recently. I hope, however, that in the light of these very unusual circumstances the Minister will find that when money becomes available it may be considered positively. I thank the Minister.

The Seanad adjourned at 9.5 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 9 November 1988.