It is intended to take all Stages of items Nos. 1 and 2. Because of the almost identical nature of items Nos. 1 and 2, it is proposed that both of these Bills, for the purposes of debate, shall be taken together and that item No. 2, the Dublin City University Bill, will be brought to a conclusion by one question which shall be put by the Chair. This means that when item No. 1 has been passed, item No. 2 will be put to the House, without further discussion, by one question.
Order of Business.
Is the Order of Business agreed? Senator Murphy.
For a terrible moment, a Chathaoirligh, I thought you had forgotten my name.
How could I?
Indeed. As this may be the last occasion on which I rise before you on the Order of Business I trust you will allow me to make a relevant point concerning the honour and dignity of this House. We all have noted with interest that perhaps almost as many as one-third of the——
Senator Murphy, I am not aware, but perhaps you are, that this is the last sitting.
He did not say that.
I do not think it is the last sitting——
Absolutely not.
——and perhaps we can have the Senator's observations at another time.
I should like to make the point because I will not have an opportunity of making it again.
No.
In other words, the Senator is leaving.
I do not think the Senator will be leaving; surely he will be re-elected.
He has the safest seat in Ireland.
You might not be, a Chathaoirligh.
May I make a point which is relevant to the Order of Business?
Relevant to the Order of Business?
As relevant as the various matters you permit to be discussed here from time to time, which are of topical interest and do not take very long. I do not have to draw your attention, a Chathaoirligh, to the fact that many of our colleagues are seeking election elsewhere——
Senator Murphy, on the Order of Business I am not interested in which people are seeking election in other places. The Order of Business for today——
If they are unsuccessful I hope they will not seek re-election here and bring this House into disrepute.
Senator O'Toole got there before you.
Senator Murphy, on the Order of Business, please.
They might consider tending their rose gardens in retirement.
The first question I should like to address to the Leader of the House is a technical one, and perhaps he may be able to throw some light on it, and that is the question of the single vote to which he referred on the two university Bills. The reason I raise this is that I will be expressing some concern about one of the Bills, in particular, about the naming of the new university, which I very much welcome, because of a possible confusion between Dublin University, whose graduates I have the honour to represent, and the Dublin City University. This is a matter of some concern to me and I hope to have the opportunity to vote separately on that Bill. Although I welcome both Bills, I would have considerable hesitation about one of them.
There is a second question I should like to ask the Leader of the House. In the light of the very welcome indication from the Cathaoirleach that this will not be the last sitting of this Seanad — I hope we will meet next week — can he say when he will provide time for a debate on the Middle East in respect of which there is general agreement among all shades of opinion in the House that this is an important matter to be discussed. Finally, a Chathaoirligh, I would like to ask if you have any news for me from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on a matter that I raised here and was directed by you to bring to that committee on a matter of what I thought to be——
Senator Norris, I would refer you to your representative on that committee.
My representatives had very considerable difficulties in extracting any satisfactory answer whatever from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Your representative would have the same information as the rest of us. I will be here until late tonight and I will talk to you.
On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh, as you have regularly pointed out to me and as we have agreed on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, — I was Senator Norris's representative there — I do not have the authority of the committee to represent to him the discussions of the committee until decisions are taken and such time is appropriate. So, if you are now giving——
It does not arise now, Senator O'Toole. I will talk to Senator Norris in my office during the day.
You publicly referred the Senator to me. Are you saying that it is possible for me to bring him up to date with the total discussions.
It is.
Thank you very much. In that case I will do so.
My understanding was that a report on this matter would be made to the House. Can that be confirmed? It is a very important matter.
I will talk to Senator Norris during the day. I am calling Senator O'Toole. Could we remain with the universities.
It is the Order of Business we are on, a Chathaoirligh.
Actually it is the Order of Business we are discussing and the lack of material on the Order of Business. Certainly, we have waited long enough for the university Bills to come before us. We are delighted to welcome them. I might compliment the Government on having got through that business. Of course, it is also indicative of the power which other people wield over the ordering of Business of this House. I have taken the trouble to go back over the various commitments given us by the Leader of the House on the Order of Business over a long period. I know this is hardly music to the ears of the Government side of the House.
(Interruptions.)
Whether we like it or not it does remain a fact that——
Would Senator O'Toole stop repeating himself and please resume his seat?
Mr. Norris rose.
Would Senator Norris please resume his seat?
I am entitled to hear——
Would Senator Norris please resume his seat?
(Interruptions.)
I am shocked that my learned friends on the other side should turn this Chamber into a Punch and Judy show every morning on the Order of Business. It is a national scandal. We should be discussing the business of the nation instead of turning it into a political football.
As one of the people who has endeavoured since election to this House, to make this House relevant, topical and anything but a political football I can say that, in a sense, we are answerable to the electorate.
(Interruptions.)
I am asking that the Leader of the House would respond to the commitments he has given in recent times. I will mention some only. One was a commitment that we would deal with the Central Bank Bill, 1988 with the Building Societies Bill 1988, a commitment that we would finish and dispose of the Criminal Justice [Forensic Evidence] Bill, 1989; a commitment that he would deal with the report dealing with libel law and make regulations; a commitment that he would have a discussion on Palestine and the Middle Eastern position. I can continue; I have made a list of the commitments which were given by the Leader of the House. In deference to you, a Chathaoirligh I do not intend to go through each and every one of them, detailing the quote, commitment and promise. But the promises offered and the commitments given now fall by the wayside. It is not good enough, is unacceptable and is unacceptable to the dignity of the House. Those who spoke from the far side should indicate to me how they feel about promises given which have not been honoured. Those are the issues.
In addition, we are now faced, for the second week running, with the Independent group in the House not having their Private Members' time. I refer to Item No. 6 on the Order of Business — the Criminal Justice (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill, 1987.
I also want to put on the record today that I absolutely reject the way in which we have been treated, despite solemn undertakings given to us of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, by a report which is accepted by this House, that the Leader of the House, without reference to or consultation with any person or any group, decided to change what was agreed by this House. In other words, the decisions of the House now stand for nothing.
(Interruptions.)
For that reason I have to, protest most strongly and emphasise apparent Government fear of discussion of the abolition of the death penalty. I would propose, as an amendment to the Order of Business today, that Item No. 6, the Criminal Justice (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill, 1987, be added.
Just a request with regard to the Order of Business. Two different Governments have promised us the Children Bill which we have not received to date. We are afforded an opportunity now; the Seanad is still in session. As far as I know the Bill has been prepared. I would ask the Leader of the House if he would contact the Minister responsible to ascertain whether he could introduce this very important, detailed and complex Bill so that we might tease out its provisions in the Seanad while we wait the reassembly of the Dáil.
At the risk of repeating myself——
Are you seconding the amendment?
I may do and I may not. I am speaking on the Order of Business at this stage. At the risk of repeating myself, I wish to protest in the strongest possible terms at the breach of a solemn agreement which was made between the parties in this House. Senator O'Toole said something which received nothing but childish interruptions from the other side of the House I might say, unhindered by you, a Chathaoirligh. It seems to me that, in reply to what Senator Seán Byrne said——
Senator Ross, you have gone through this whole session reflecting on how I run this Seanad or how I rule from the Chair. I wish you would cease to do so, even in the last weeks of this Seanad for however long we will be here. Every time you stand up you reflect on my rulings——
I was making on observation, which is a reasonable observation, that there was a series——
You are on the record of the House no matter what you are doing by way of observation or comment——
——of interruptions from that side of the House. I could not hear what Senator O'Toole was saying. On top of that, a Chathaoirligh you did not stop those interruptions. If I might continue to——
Tell us what you want for today and resume your seat.
Opinion polls may have an upsetting effect on them. I am sorry about the opinion polls. Maybe it will be better next week.
Is he talking about the Progressive Democrats?
Secondly, Senator Byrne said he was fed up with this Punch and Judy Show that is going on here. It just happens that the Independents want to make a serious contribution to the proceedings in this House and that all we get from the other side is interruptions.
Would Senator Ross please tell me what he wants ordered for today?
I am just coming to that——
You are taking a long time.
I am indeed. The Government breached their solemn undertakings with this House, because they are rushing things through for the purposes of a general election.
There is a history to item No. 6. That is why it is being proposed as an amendment to the Order of Business today. As Senator J. O'Toole said the Leader of the House, without consultation with anybody, decided last week that he would not take item No. 6. I suggest he did have consultation with somebody. I suspect he got orders from somebody.
(Interruptions.)
What is such a pity is that the Leader of the House does not treat this——
(Interruptions.)
If I could continue without interruption from Senator Lydon——
Senator Ross, this is like a tape. Would you just tell us what you want dealt with today and resume your seat.
I want fair play for the Independents. I want the Government to keep their agreement with the Members of this House. I want the opposite side of this House not to treat this House as a circus, which is just to rush through legislation. I want to debate the abolition of hanging. I want the Minister for Justice not to give orders to the Leader of the House to suppress argument on it. That is what I want. I second the amendment.
Senator Ross said that I interrupted him. It was not I who interrupted him. I would like that statement withdrawn.
That is fine, Senator Lydon, I am calling Senator Brendan Ryan.
Senator Byrne talked about a Punch and Judy show. I am not sure who is Punch and who is Judy. It gives none of us on the Independent benches any pleasure to see this House begin in a disorderly way. It may well appeal to the flippancy of certain of the Members opposite to make smart remarks about our demands to have serious business discussed in this House but I want to say one thing quite simply. When Senators O'Toole, Ross, Norris and I were struggling through the Committee Stage of the Companies (No. 2) Bill, 1987, with the Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Commerce, Deputy Brennan, for weeks on end with hardly a reporter in the House, with not a word of the discussion reported — and I would not expect it — there was nobody shouting about our Punch and Judy show. We had close on 100 amendments to that Bill many of which were introduced by the Government, some of which were introduced by this side of the House and many of which were accepted. We were here doing the business of this House without publicity and without notice because it was our duty to do so. It is also our duty to defend the dignity of this House, that is what I intend to do but those people on the Government side want to use it as a political football for a general election. I like being in this House.
Senator Ryan——
I am proud of this House and I am not going to stand here and allow those people on the Government side to undermine the dignity of this House.
Senator Ryan, you are out of order. The Leader of the House to reply and continue.
There were a few relevant points made and I will try to pick out those. Senator Norris asked about the naming of the new university in Dublin and said problems might arise in that regard. There is no problem in relation to debate or to votes but when the question is put it is put. Senator Harte mentioned the Children Bill. I ordered business for today and I will take into account what Senator Harte has said in relation to that Bill.
Mention has been made of solemn agreements. There is an agreement which is not solemn——
(Interruptions.)
——which is not written, but which has been given to various groups because of the fact that we allow Independent Senators a certain concession in the House — we grant that — but we will not allow Government business to be overtaken by any other business. We are taking Government business today. That is all I will say. I do not think any other relevant point was made.
On a point of order——
Senator O'Toole, have you moved an amendment to the Order of Business.
Yes.
Has it been seconded?
Yes.
On a point of order——
An amendment has been moved to the Order of Business.
On a point of order——
Senator Joe O'Toole has moved an amendment to the Order of Business that item 6 be inserted after item 2. Is the amendment being pressed?
Senators
Yes.
The question is "That Item No. 6 be included in the Order of Business."
Senators
Vótáil.
Will Senators who are claiming a division on the Order of Business please rise?
Five or more Senators stood.
The division will proceed.
Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 10; Níl, 18.
Tá
- Cregan, Denis.
- Harte, John.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- Kennedy, Patrick.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Murphy, John A.
- Norris, David.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Níl
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Bromell, John A. (Tony).
- Byrne, Sean.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Sean.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- Ó Conchubhair, Nioclás.
- Ryan, William.
Tellers: Tá, Senators J. O'Toole and Ross; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and Fitzsimons.
Question declared lost.
Question, "That the Order of Business be items Nos. 1 and 2 and that items Nos. 1 and 2 be taken together and that item 2 be brought to a conclusion by one question," put and declared carried.