Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1997

Vol. 150 No. 6

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Today's Order of Business is items 1 and 2. Item 1, Second Stage only, will be taken from now until 1 p.m., with 20 minutes per speaker. Item 2, Second Stage, will be taken from 2 p.m. until 6 o'clock, with 20 minutes per speaker.

For the information of Members who have raised this matter previously on the Order of Business, the Universities Bill has now completed Committee Stage in the Dáil. It will probably be completed there in another two weeks. I expect that the Seanad will commence considerations on the Bill either immediately before or after the Easter recess.

Mr. Fitzgerald

The Order of Business is acceptable to us and the times are agreed.

Recently I had occasion to look for bound volumes of the Official Report of debates in the House for the 1993 period. I was amazed to discover that bound volumes are only available up to March 1991. For some reason no bound volumes after that date are available. I inquired further and discovered that more recent volumes, up to mid 1995, are ready and at the printers. In all fairness, bound volumes should be made available, especially for anyone wishing to research what happened in the last four or five years in the Seanad. Any delay in preparing the bound volumes should not exceed one year. Will the Leader investigate the matter? I would appreciate it if something could be done.

Mr. O'Toole

Such material should be available on computer disc and if people want to have dusty volumes as well that is fine. I understand that an attempt to put the material on disc is in hand. It would be worthwhile knowing what stage it is at. It is easier to deal with in disc format.

Two weeks ago I raised with the Leader the question of making available to Members of the House the Buckley report on salaries and allowances for higher civil servants and Members of the Oireachtas, but it still has not been made available. The discussion has almost concluded in the media and at Government level and it is a breach of industrial relations principles. It should be made public. There is nothing to hide.

Will the Leader clarify the Government's position on VAT on créches? Are the proposals on hold? I have received many queries on this matter.

Last year the House discussed a motion on flooding and legislation was passed. In particular the situation in north Clare and south Galway was discussed. A number of investigations were established at the time to resolve the problem. Will the Leader clarify the matter with the Minister?

Mr. Dardis

I welcome the Leader's comments that he considers the present arrangements regarding the circulation of reports to Members to be unsatisfactory. Will he arrange an early meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to discuss this matter so as to ensure that Members receive reports and are fully briefed before discussing issues in the House?

Yesterday the Leader indicated that he would give a date for a debate on agriculture. When will that debate take place?

What is the Government's attitude to the Gilligan case which was before the High Court yesterday? Will there be amending legislation covering the Criminal Assets Bureau or will other measures be taken to ensure that pursuit of assets which are allegedly from criminal——

Mr. Enright

The case is already being considered for appeal according to this morning's newspapers.

Mr. Dardis

I am glad to have the matter clarified by Senator Enright. However, my question was to the Leader rather than the Senator.

Mr. Enright

The papers are available in the Library if the Senator would only read them.

Mr. Dardis

I look forward to the day in the very distant future when Senator Enright will occupy the Leader's chair.

Ms Kelly

He will be a Deputy for Laoighis-Offaly before then.

Mr. Lanigan

Senator Enright would make a very good Attorney General.

Mr. Dardis

I am sure the Senator would be just as capable of answering from the back benches of the Dáil as from the back benches of the Seanad.

What is proposed, in addition to any appeal, by way of amending legislation to ensure that this loophole is closed?

Ms O'Sullivan

Nobody has yet received the sports report referred to yesterday and due for discussion next Wednesday. Will the Leader ensure that we receive it as soon as possible?

I welcome the decision of the Revenue Commissioners to suspend collection of VAT on child minding and créche facilities. I raised this issue on the Order of Business yesterday and was supported by Senator Lanigan and Senator Henry. I recommended that they should suspend collection until the issue was clarified and I am glad they have done that. The education content of child care is such that it should be exempt from VAT and I hope that will be the final decision of the Revenue Commissioners.

I understand youth legislation is likely to be published in the next two weeks. I welcome that. We have had several debates in the House on the importance of youth affairs, particularly young people who leave school early without qualifications. Last week the House had a very positive debate on this issue.

Mr. Lanigan

I am delighted that the Revenue Commissioners reacted very positively to what was said in the Seanad yesterday, even though the front page of The Irish Times gives the impression that there was no mention of VAT on créches and play schools in the House.

Will the Leader tell us when the House will debate the National Roads Authority? This is a matter of great concern to many people. The last time I raised the matter I asked the Leader for an urgent debate in the context of gridlock developing on the approach to Waterford and problems on the Dublin to Waterford road through Kilkenny. Road works are being carried out on the Kilkenny side of County Waterford along the Suir. The regional hospital in Waterford is on the wrong side of the river which has only one bridge. Will the Leader arrange for an urgent debate? There is an ambulance or paediatric "flying squad" in the south east which can take three hours to get from the regional hospital in Waterford to Kilkenny, Clonmel or anywhere else in the south east because of the road works. It is nonsense that the National Roads Authority will not give permission to have a second bridge built over the Suir or develop the N9 or N10 into Waterford. It is a crisis. The National Roads Authority have responsibility to develop the national road network and I ask the Leader to arrange for an urgent debate on the matter.

Yesterday I raised the issue of settlements in east Jerusalem and suggested we should protest vehemently against them. Yesterday afternoon the Israeli Government gave permission to build 2,456 new settlements——

An Cathaoirleach

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Mr. Lanigan

I am developing the question. Both Houses of the Oireachtas will have an opportunity to deal with this matter. If the Israeli Government continues with the building of these houses we should not allow the Government to ratify the EU-Isael agreement which is due for ratification in the coming few weeks. I am glad that the Tánaiste vehemently protested against the building of these houses in east Jerusalem. If the Israeli Government persist, can we ensure that the Government does not ratify the EU-Israel agreement?

Mr. Hayes

I agree with Senator O'Sullivan's call for the youth services legislation to be published and brought before both Houses of the Oireachtas as soon as possible. This Bill has been in incubation for the past 20 years. It is important for youth service providers and the thousands of people who give their time voluntarily that there is legislation. Will the Leader ask the Government when this legislation will be introduced? It will be a lengthy Bill and it is important that it is passed before the election. Of course, we can also discuss it after the election.

Will the Leader speak directly to the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht concerning the proposal by U2 to have their concert in the Phoenix Park this summer? It is a disgrace that the leading Irish rock band cannot play in their own city. Will the Leader ask the Minister to knock a few heads together in Dublin Corporation and the Office of Public Works in order to resolve the problem?

Dr. Henry

We are all anxious to encourage co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic in non-contentious areas. Will the Leader congratulate the Minister for Health and his predecessor on the encouragement they gave to the Royal College of Physicians in Ireland to establish an institute of public health for the whole island? This body is to be supported by the Department of Health here and the Department of Health and Social Services in Northern Ireland. It is by making efforts in these areas that we show co-operation between the two jurisdictions is possible.

Mr. Magner

On last week's Order of Business, I raised the question of broadcasting Seanad debates. I asked the Leader to speak to the Broadcasting Unit. They had in fact shown the Seanad proceedings but had done so before they had shown Dáil proceedings, which was unusual. I wish to withdraw my request and I apologise to the staff of the Broadcasting Unit. As we know, coverage has improved enormously; I just thought they were slipping back into old habits, which they were not. It was my fault and I was wrong.

The second issue I raised with the Leader was in relation to the Special Olympics. I thought it was disgraceful that no member of the Government went out to Dublin airport to greet them. One could not get into the airport when the Olympics were on, but when the Special Olympics were on nobody turned up. I am glad to see on this morning's newspaper that the situation was rectified through a reception given by the Tánaiste for the Irish competitors in the Canadian Special Olympics.

Ms Honan

Like Senators O'Sullivan, O'Toole and Lanigan, I too welcome the suspension of the collection of VAT on childcare services. There is a regulation in place since 1977 which will have to be dealt with by the Revenue Commissioners. Through the Leader, I appeal to the Government to move now to resolve the issue by having childcare, as Senator O'Sullivan said, classified as an educational service, given the huge developmental role played by any childminder. Such a measure would remove childcare from any VAT liability.

Mr. Farrell

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Justice to make a helicopter available to the State Pathologist as he has such a heavy schedule. I do not think it is acceptable to have the State Pathologist travelling in 1897 transport —the railway train—in 1997. I think it is a disgrace that remains should be left lying for up to 24 hours uncovered. There should be a tent, or some such covering, available in every district to put around the bodies.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader, please.

Mr. Farrell

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to make a helicopter available to the State Pathologist in times of crisis and in view of the fact that so many murders are being committed.

I agree that VAT is not being charged on childcare facilities for the time being. I ask the Leader whether the Revenue Commissioners withdraw themselves or were instructed to do so by the Minister for Finance. If not, have the Revenue Commissioners become political by withdrawing this contentious tax in the lead-up to a general election?

Mr. Magner

You just cannot win.

Professor Lee

I strongly endorse Senator O'Toole's request to the Leader to have the Buckley report debated in this House as a matter of urgency. We had a brief discussion yesterday on the issue of public salaries which I think tells us more than all the rhetoric about the value placed on public service. I think the Buckley report would provide an admirable opportunity to discuss the issue seriously.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Arising from what has already been discussed on the Order of Business, could I suggest that the Minister for Finance would give a direction to formalise the communication he had with the Revenue Commissioners, or ensure that in the course of the Finance Bill he would put in a provision to guarantee that childcare services would be exempt from VAT? It is quite clear that there has been Government intervention here. It is equally clear that any problem which arises between now and the date of the election will obviously get a considered and deeply analysed response from this Government.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the Finance Bill on the Order of Business.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Could I suggest that if there are any other elements out there who have any problem——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Kennedy

Now is the time to make your bid because you will get a very generous response.

An Cathaoirleach

On the Order of Business, Senator.

Mr. O'Kennedy

On the Order of Business, I want to reflect a consensus in this House in relation to the lack of immediate and adequate transportation facilities for the State Pathologist. In so far as the Army helicopter has been used on the southern route on many occasions by the Tánaiste, could arrangements be made to ensure that if such a helicopter can be used in two administrations by the Tánaiste, it could——

Mr. Magner

As it was used by you when you were a Minister.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Then I would——

An Cathaoirleach

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Magner

It is a cheap comment.

Mr. O'Kennedy

It is not cheap.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Could I ask if the Minister for Defence will disclose to the House the number of times the Army helicopter was used by any Member of the Oireachtas over the past ten years——

Mr. Hayes

It is on the record——

Mr. O'Kennedy

——and ensure that if it is available for the Tánaiste as it constantly has been——

An Cathaoirleach

The matter does not arise on the Order of Business. A question to the Leader.

Mr. Magner

How did you visit countries, was it by ship?

Mr. O'Kennedy

I did not travel up and down to Tipperary by helicopter every day.

Mr. Magner

How did you travel when you were the Minister for Foreign Affairs?

Mr. O'Kennedy

This hurts.

Mr. Magner

I do not like that kind of comment. It is disgraceful.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I know you do not like it. It is not Senator Magner's determination which will influence me.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader, please.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Could we ensure that from now on the Army helicopter service be made available as a matter of priority for urgent purposes like this as opposed to ferrying the Tánaiste to and from Tralee on a regular basis?

Mr. Magner

Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Mr. O'Kennedy

It is not cheap. It is a fact and the Senator does not like it.

Mr. Magner

Senator O'Kennedy knows it is cheap.

Mr. Norris

Could we have some order? I cannot hear the interruptions.

An Cathaoirleach

I second your proposal.

Mr. Norris

I was contacted by members of the State Pathologist's family who gave me some information and that is the reason I raised this issue in the House some months ago. I suggested the State Pathologist himself should give me some information; he has not done so. Listening to the debate here this morning, I know exactly why he has not. Senator O'Kennedy's contribution reduced this important matter to a trivial question of political point scoring and that is regrettable.

I ask the Leader to give us some indication as to the arrangements for the special debates which are forthcoming, in particular the one on the Luas system. The transport situation in the city is worsening all the time. Senator Farrell referred to the 1897 train service; at least trains run on tracks and do not disrupt everything else. The one place a bus cannot be found in the city, as I discovered this morning, is in a bus lane. I would welcome a debate on transport which would concentrate on the Luas system.

Ms Kelly

I was not going to make any contribution on the Order of Business today. However, I have to comment on Senator O'Kennedy's remarks. Senator Mooney, whose views I have supported on many occasions, has raised the subject of rural development in this House. One of the aspects of rural development is that people living in rural Ireland should have the same facilities as people in Dublin and other cities. If we are to have Ministers in important positions, such as the Minister for Foreign Affairs, coming from areas outside of Dublin——

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader.

Ms Kelly

I will come to the question in a moment.

An Cathaoirleach

This is not a matter for the Order of Business. Please put a question to the Leader now.

Mr. Maloney

She is developing the question.

Ms Kelly

I am developing the question, other people have asked to do the same. Perhaps it is a matter for discussion in the House that if we have a Minister for Foreign Affairs living at least four hours drive, travelling at maximum speed, from Dublin, other forms of transport be made available to him. Otherwise, we are sending a clear message to people coming from rural Ireland that they cannot serve as Minister for Foreign Affairs because it is too costly. Mixing up the issues of providing transport for the State Pathologist to Kerry and a Government Minister to Kerry is very unfair and does a disservice to——

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Do not misunderstand me.

Ms Kelly

It is a matter for discussion in this House.

An Cathaoirleach

You are asking for a debate on it?

Ms Kelly

Yes, I am asking for a debate on it. I think it is cheap to criticise a form of transport used by a Minister for Foreign Affairs who happens to come from Kerry.

Mr. Daly

Last year the contract for helicopters for the search and rescue service on the west coast was awarded to a new company, Bond Helicopters. It had been awarded for the previous three or four years to Irish Helicopters. Part of the contract was that essential auto-hover equipment, which was part of the previous service, would be provided by the new company and time would be given to it to provide that essential specialist equipment. It is now alleged that the new company does not have this specialist equipment and because of that, the service will be less satisfactory and effective and could be dangerous.

An Cathaoirleach

This matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business. It should be raised on the Adjournment.

Mr. Daly

There is an urgency about it now because people are at risk.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader.

Mr. Daly

Would the Leader ask the Minister for the Marine what steps are being taken to ensure the same level of service is provided by the new company as was provided by Irish Helicopters?

Mr. Enright

Would the Leader examine the issue of the holding of inquests? I have spoken about this to a number of Senators and other public representatives and there can be a delay of up to six months in inquests being held. This means families must wait long periods to obtain death certificates. It also causes a delay in the payment of widow's pensions.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is asking for a debate?

Mr. Enright

I am. Such a delay means that when inquests are held, five or six families who have suffered the death of a loved one have their cases heard on the same day. This is not fair to the families concerned. This situation should be closely examined to ensure inquests are held as soon as possible after death.

I support the request for examining the position of the State Pathologist. The present situation of one man and his assistant is unfair as they are unable to cope. Proper facilities must be provided and additional personnel, if needed, should be provided as well.

Mr. Manning

Senator Fitzgerald asked about the late arrival of bound volumes. I understand the problem does not lie with the Editor's office but is one of cost. It raises the issue Senator O'Toole and others have raised before that the Houses of the Oireachtas do not have control of their budgets as sanction must be sought from the Department of Finance in most cases. It is most unsatisfactory and there ought to be some way for the Houses to decide their priorities. The publishing of bound volumes should be one of them.

Mr. Magner

As it is in the House of Commons.

Mr. Manning

Senators O'Toole and Lee raised the question of the Buckley report. I agree it is outrageous that this report has been widely debated on the basis of one leaked fragment which has resulted in that debate reflecting badly on Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas. It is also outrageous that those affected by the committee who took the trouble of making submissions to it have not yet seen the report. A grave discourtesy has been shown and I do not know who is responsible. I doubt if it was Michael Buckley, who would be very proper in these matters. I would welcome a discussion on the contents of that report when we receive it.

Senator O'Toole and others asked about VAT on créches. The crocodile tears shed by the opposite side of the House because of this Government's supposed irresponsibility in acting when it saw an anomaly is a strange type of politics. When there is a problem, this Government acts quickly.

Mr. Lanigan

We complimented the Government.

Mr. Manning

There was a certain absence of sincerity and an element of sour grapes in the reactions of some of the Senator's colleagues. I compliment Senators O'Sullivan and Henry, who raised the matter yesterday. We will shortly have clarification and I hope the outcome will be positive.

I will examine the issue raised by Senator O'Toole of flooding in north Clare and south Galway.

Senator Dardis asked about the circulation of reports. When I next have a consultation with the Cathaoirleach, I will ask for an urgent meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to discuss this matter and convey our displeasure to the Department. I will try today to get a date for the Senator for the debate on agriculture. I understand the High Court case is about to take place so there is nothing we can do until that is finished.

Senator O'Sullivan and others asked about the Youth Bill. If it is as near completion as indicated, I will endeavour to have it initiated in the Seanad, given our lower age profile and greater interest in sporting matters.

Senator Lanigan again asked the questions he asked yesterday, but I will try to arrange a debate on the National Roads Authority. I am aware of the problems in the Kilkenny-Waterford area to which he referred.

I will convey Senator Hayes's concern about the U2 concert to the Minister for the Environment, but perhaps other Members might do likewise.

Senator Henry spoke about the co-operation between the Royal College of Physicians and its sister body in Northern Ireland. I commend the college and the Minister for Health in this matter.

It is nice to hear Senator Magner admit he was wrong and I thank him for saying that. The broadcasting has improved greatly and I am glad the Senator admitted that.

Mr. Fitzgerald

He is always wrong.

Mr. Magner

I feel like Matt Talbot.

Mr. Manning

I am also glad he drew our attention to the reception for the Special Olympics.

Other issues raised today were raised yesterday, such as the question of VAT on créches asked by Senator Honan. We had a long discussion on the issue of the State Pathologist yesterday and I indicated to the House that a position of Deputy Pathologist has been advertised which will be filled shortly. I also indicated to the Minister the view of the House that, as far as possible, that person should live outside Dublin and that we were not happy with the available resources.

I am sorry Senator O'Kennedy had to drag in the travel arrangements for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, who has performed Herculean work over the last number of years. He works an extraordinarily long week. Surely he should at least have proper travel facilities available to him without inviting snide comments?

Mr. Magner

Senator O'Kennedy used to walk to Brussels.

Mr. Manning

There is a problem with the role of the pathologist, but it should not involve unnecessary and unworthy criticism of the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

The Luas debate will be held shortly. Senator Daly asked about search and rescue facilities. My understanding is that the new system is working well but he will have an opportunity to ask the Minister for the Marine about it in the course of the following debate.

While Senator Enright did not have any inquest in Clonaslee last Monday night, I take what he says seriously and will convey it to the proper authorities.

Order of Business agreed to.