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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 3 Jul 1998

Vol. 156 No. 10

Firearms (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1998: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I believe it would be useful, for the information of the House, if I gave some background at this time concerning the need for the Bill, and the reasons urgent, but temporary, measures are necessary to respond to a critical situation.

The High Court found on 12 June this year that the procedures adopted to enable the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to discharge adequately the obligations imposed by the Firearms Act, 1925, in granting firearm certificates to non-resident hunters are ineffective and insufficient. The judgment followed a judicial review sought in March 1996 by the National Association of Regional Game Councils. The High Court found also that the procedures followed by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands in granting hunting licences to non-residents — which they must first obtain in order to be granted firearm certificates — are also ineffective and insufficient. The effect of the judgment is that both Ministers are precluded from issuing hunting licences, and the consequential firearm certificates to non-residents, and the granting of licences and firearm certificates ceased with effect from the date of the judgment.

In arriving at his judgment, the learned judge made a number of important points which I believe are worth repeating here. The statutory obligations in the Firearms Act, 1925, relevant to the granting of firearm certificates to non-residents, impose certain requirements on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Firearms Act, 1925, requires that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform be satisfied that a non-resident seeking a firearm certificate is not a danger to the public safety or to the peace, and is not a person declared to be disentitled. The following are declared to be disentitled: a person under the age of 16; a person of intemperate habits; a person of unsound mind; a person sentenced by the Irish courts in certain circumstances and a person subject to the supervision of the police or bound to the peace in certain circumstances.

While the court found that the obligations could be described as onerous and, in certain instances, difficult to comply with, if not impossible, the fact is that they are statutory, couched in unambiguous terms and, accordingly, there is a legal requirement to comply with them. While evidence was offered of the existing procedures followed to comply with these onerous and rigid obligations, the court found that, having regard to the rigid but unambiguous nature of the statutory obligations, the procedures did not so comply. I should add that the procedures referred in evidence to the High Court included requiring confirmation from an applicant of a European firearms pass, for example, or of a firearm certificate or permit issued in an applicant's country of residence. They also included checks with the Garda authorities in relation to non-residents convicted of crimes and, in addition, evidence of permission to shoot on land within the State.

There are broad and significant implications arising from the judgment, not only for overseas shooting visitors but also for the issue of firearm certificates generally. The advice available to me is that the case for new legislation in this area is compelling. Ideally, any new legislation would address the broad implications of the judgment and effect significant amendments to the Firearms Act, 1925, and to the relevant provisions of the Wildlife Act, 1976. There are also, of course, key public policy considerations to be addressed in any proposals for change to ensure that firearms, and their use, remain under strict control.

I propose to establish immediately a review group comprising representatives of the key agencies in this area with a view to a comprehensive analysis of what is required. The group is to be tasked, as a matter of urgency, with bringing forward proposals in this sensitive but complicated area following a full review, having taken account of the views of the major sectional interests including, I would emphasise, those of the National Association of Regional Game Councils.

In responding to the difficulties which have arisen since the High Court judgment was delivered, I have met representatives of various groups affected, or concerned, by the judgment including representatives of the National Association of Regional Game Councils. There is an appreciation on both sides of the difficulties which each of us face and an acceptance that what is required is a fair and balanced approach which achieves a solution which recognises the interests of all.

However, any detailed consideration of an area as complex and as sensitive as that of firearms controls will obviously require some time before that consideration bears fruit. In the meantime, the Government is acutely aware that an administrative paralysis during which hunting licences and firearm certificates are not issued to non-residents has profound implications for the overseas shooting tourism business.

Overseas shooting visitors are significant contributors to the tourist sector. The sector, I am informed, is exceptionally high yield, attracting visitors in the off-season. A number of prestigious tourism establishments have made substantial investments in building up their businesses, spending money on such matters as game farming and up-grading. While it is difficult to put an exact figure on the numbers employed directly, there is no doubt but that employees in the hotels and shooting estates, as well as "beaters", farmers and animal feed manufacturers, for example, would be affected by any serious downturn in business. Allied to that is the fact that this potential growth area is competing with other countries for this developing business and I am aware that, if the business were to be lost for this year in the months ahead, it is almost certainly lost for years to come, if not forever.

In the light of those important considerations, it was decided that a two stage response is essential to deal with the matters raised by the High Court judgment. First, the establishment of a review group as I have just outlined and, second, the introduction of temporary legislative measures to deal, in the short term, with the urgent and critical issues which arise not only for the tourism sector but also for the whole economy. The non-issue of hunting licences and accompanying firearm certificates is having an immediate effect on the tourist shooting industry, and on persons who make their livelihoods in that area of the economy and, because of that, the Government agreed that urgent temporary measures were necessary.

Turning to the Bill itself, there are some points I wish to emphasise. First, as I have indicated, this is an interim measure to allow hunting licences and firearm certificates to issue to non-residents pending the consideration of more comprehensive proposals from the review group mentioned earlier. The Bill specifically provides that the Act shall expire 12 months after the date of its passing, subject to the possibility of one, and one only, further extension if considered absolutely necessary.

In addition, it should be noted that, in practical terms, the provisions of the Bill do not change the procedures which have been followed for some years, under different Governments, in issuing firearm certificates to non-residents. While the Bill proposes to amend, on an interim basis, the statutory provisions governing the limitations and restrictions for the granting of firearm certificates, in real terms it gives effect to the existing procedures in recognition of the fact that the statutory obligations are, effectively, difficult to meet and, in some instances, impossible.

I have heard it said that the Bill will effectively mean that non-residents will be able to bring firearms into this country with virtually no checks being made. I want to refute that suggestion. The provisions of this Bill do not in any way dilute the existing procedures. In the granting of firearm certificates to non-residents, regard has always been had to the preservation of the public safety and the peace.

It has been said the Bill will effectively mean that non-residents will be able to bring firearms into this country with virtually no checks being made. I refute that suggestion. Its provisions do not dilute the existing procedures. In granting firearm certificates to non-residents, regard has always been had to the preservation of public safety. This was always the overriding consideration. The measures proposed will not change this. In fact, two additional restrictive measures are introduced. These are in section 1(5) which allows the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to attach conditions to a firearm certificate, and in subsection 6 where provision is made to allow the Minister to revoke a firearm certificate where he is of the opinion that the holder of the certificate cannot, without danger to the public safety or to the peace, be permitted to have a firearm in his or her possession.

I also emphasise that the policy, which in the main has been in existence since 1972, of restricting the issuing of firearm certificates to certain categories of firearms is not changed by the Bill. The policy, which is among the most restrictive in Europe, will continue as before and provides that firearm certificates will only be granted for shotguns and rifles in certain limited categories.

Apart from what might be described as new restrictions, the Bill provides in section 1 that, before granting a firearm certificate, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform shall be of the opinion that the application is bona fide and that there is no good reason to refuse to grant the certificate. For the purpose of establishing that there is no good reason for refusing a firearm certificate, the Minister may seek evidence of a European Firearms Pass where the applicant is resident in an EU member state, or any other documents relevant to firearms issued by an appropriate body outside the State. The Minister may make such inquiries as he considers appropriate, such as inquiries from the Garda Síochána or other police services, if it is considered necessary and possible to do so, to determine suitability in any particular case. I emphasise these aspects of the Bill to illustrate that there is no question of non-residents being allowed to bring firearms into this country without proper checks being made on their suitability.

In the wildlife context, the provisions of the Bill which relate to the issue of hunting licences to hunters from outside the State will be reassessed in the light of the forthcoming Wildlife (Amendment) Bill, which is due to be published in the autumn. That draft Bill already contains proposed amendments to the regime which has been operating in the area of hunting licences and I understand the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands will carry out a further review of the area in light of the High Court judgment and of the provisions of this Bill.

This Bill maintains our control over the use and possession of firearms by non-residents, while safeguarding the jobs and incomes of those engaged in our tourism industry and rural economy generally. The Bill does not lessen the measures taken to safeguard the public safety and the peace. All checks previously undertaken will continue in force. In addition, two additional safeguards have been introduced — the power to add conditions to certificates and the power to revoke them.

I emphasis again the temporary nature of the Bill, which will expire 12 months after its passing, and that the broad implications which arise for granting firearm certificates generally from the recent High Court judgment will be addressed as a matter of urgency by an expert review group. This group will consult widely and seek submissions on what needs to be done. There is a technical provision which allows the Government to extend the Bill for a further period not exceeding 12 months which, in light of the implementation of the conclusions and recommendations of the review group, I am optimistic it will not be necessary to invoke. I commend the Bill to the House.

This is a rushed and botched attempt by the Minister to get even with the National Association of Regional Game Councils which, as he views it, had the temerity to take a case in the High Court and win it. The effect of that was to severely rebuke the Minister and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands for the way they have maladministered the Firearms Act, 1925, and the Wildlife Act, 1976.

It is arrant nonsense for the Minister to state this so-called emergency measure is necessary to protect what is termed a significant section of the tourism industry. I support anything which promotes tourism, such as this sector which brings in visitors from abroad on shooting holidays, as long as it is done within the law and there is proper protection for wildlife. Visitors should only be able to bring in certain types of weapons and there should be a restriction on the amount of ammunition they are allowed to carry on expeditions. They should abide by all the laws in this area, such as the distance from the creature being shot at whether it is flying or walking.

However, there is plenty of evidence of widespread abuse and gross breaches of the wildlife protection legislation. This is often done by native sports people, but more often by so-called visitors. They shoot indiscriminately at game in season but also at all types of game for the sheer pleasure of shooting. This includes game that is protected or threatened with extinction. They draw no distinction between flying birds and land bound animals.

The wanton slaughter of creatures which have no game value, such as song birds and other small animals, is particularly objectionable and horrible. These species have a crucial role in maintaining the ecological balance. There is no accounting for the damage to the balance of nature which some of these people have inflicted for wanton reasons and often in ignorance. They are often doing what they wish they could do in their own countries. However, they know they would end up in jail if they tried it at home. Due to the laxity of our laws and their poor and often non-existent enforcement, anything is fair game for many people on shooting expeditions.

The Garda Síochána has the impossible job of trying to police infringements of the wildlife and firearms legislation as it applies to visitors. Gardaí feel they are wasting their time because the law is weak and easily circumvented by foreigners. Wildlife rangers attached to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands say that their task in dealing with foreign and native miscreants is impossible because they are so thin on the ground. There is only a few dozen of them to cover the entire country. This makes their position in terms of policing and observing impossible.

It is impossible to get convictions against overseas visitors regardless of how horrendous are the breaches of the existing law. Against this background, the Bill will make it easier for people to break the law. They cannot be convicted under the current law and this measure will make it easier for them. It is incomprehensible that the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, are supporting this imbecile Bill which will confer on visitors from abroad special privileges that we would not contemplate giving our citizens.

The Bill should comprehensively update the Firearms Act, 1925, and strengthen the law on holding and using sporting guns and other weapons. The law should be uniform for Irish nationals and foreign visitors. This is the minimum this and the other House should request. The long promised new Wildlife Bill should be before the House. When I was a Member of the other House in 1993, I asked the then Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds, on the Order of Business when the promised Wildlife Bill would be introduced. He replied that it would be introduced in a few months, during the next session. Yet, five years later, there is still no sign of that Bill. I do not believe the Minister's promise that a new Wildlife Bill will be introduced in the next session. It has been gestating in various Departments and in the Office of Public Works since 1990. Other parties have been in Government since then but the Minister's party has been in Government for most of that period.

In the meantime, without a new wildlife protection Bill, untold damage has been done to our wildlife stocks over the past decade. An increasing number of native species have become rare, threatened or extinct. Much of this is due to the excessive and indiscriminate killing of wildlife and the destruction of wildlife habitats. That indiscriminate killing was licensed under our laws. The agents of the Government had to turn a blind eye to the appalling wanton destruction of wildlife stock which was taking place. We need a better Wildlife Act to combat that.

I hope the Senator reported it.

I am sorely tempted to reply to that in kind but I will not do so.

In the absence of a new Wildlife Act, a great deal of damage has been done to wildlife habitats in the past five years. All of us who pass through rural Ireland in the spring and summer have seen uncontrolled burning off of sensitive landscapes such as bogs. Inappropriate drainage work is carried out on wetlands——

One could not keep grouse without burning off.

Burning off kills tens of thousands of other species and their nestlings. I am amazed that Senator Dardis, of all people, would make such an extraordinary statement because he knows the agricultural scene in rural Ireland.

Senator Dardis is right.

It is good management.

I would not be surprised if some Government Members made such remarks but I am surprised Senator Dardis said it. I sincerely hope his remarks will not be published because it would do his public image a great deal of damage.

The Senator has obviously never been on a grouse moor in Scotland.

Senator Connor, without interruption.

I will have to plead for your protection from unwarranted attacks.

Acting Chairman

The Senator should not provoke interruption.

The Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands engaged this year in a totally unnecessary war with the few hundred people who cut turf for domestic fuel and who want to maintain this timeless and generally environmentally friendly practice, yet we have not seen the much needed Wildlife Bill.

Speculators are allowed buy great tracts of sensitive landscapes all around the country, which are usually crucial wildlife habitats. There is nothing in the law to stop them ploughing these areas and planting them with inappropriate tree species. If the Minister were here she would respond by saying we no longer pay grants for such practices. However, that is not the answer because financial institutions, such as insurance companies, who engage in this practice do not want State grants. It is very profitable for them to buy vast tracts of mountainside, raised bogs, blanket bogs and so on and plant them as a forward investment. That must not necessarily be stopped in every case but it must be controlled because it is doing a great deal of damage to landscapes and is contributing to endangering and making extinct many wildlife species.

This Bill is before us because the Minister was panicked into it by a small pressure group which gave him totally inaccurate figures about the value of this shoulder tourism. It is nonsense to say it is worth £21 million in tourism revenue — it is hardly worth £2 million. It is unforgivable for the Minister to come to this House, and for his colleague to go into the other House, and mouth the figures given to him by the special interests promoting this legislation.

It is a pathetic response to the problem being created by the action, which I applaud, of the National Association of Regional Game Councils and the decision of Mr. Justice Quirke. I compliment the councils and Mr. Justice Quirke on handing down that decision. The Minister failed utterly to enforce the existing law and he decided to ignore the need to update the law.

The new comprehensive Wildlife Bill was first proposed as long ago as 1990. The Government has done nothing to progress it, despite the ever increasing reasons for having it on the Statute Book, such as the disappearance of many species of wildlife, the mass destruction of habitats, EU pressures in regard to the habitats directive and the need to define and protect our laws on special areas of conservation and national heritage areas. These matters are all to be addressed in a Wildlife Bill, which is what we should have in front of us today instead of these——

Is the Senator talking about the one Deputy Michael D. Higgins was going to introduce?

——three or four pages of a nonsensical and cowardly response to a High Court decision. We should have responded with comprehensive legal measures, which it is incumbent on the Minister to introduce and on these Houses to pass, which would protect our wildlife and habitats, rather than making this major concession to a small pressure group.

This Bill is necessary due to the recent High Court decision. I read the report of the debate in the other House, where there was a great deal of criticism by the Opposition of shooting tourism and the revenue accruing from it. However, they gave only one narrow point of view. Several Deputies told the story of the tourist who, when asked why he did not shoot a pheasant running across the road, said he was waiting for it to stand still. However, that story is as old as Methuselah and it was not said by a foreign tourist but by a native.

Neither this or the other House mentioned the amount of money put into the industry by private individuals who run shooting estates. These estates are very successful and bring people from all over the world to Ireland. Listening to some contributions, one would think such people go out shooting morning, noon and night. However, they shoot for one day, play golf for a couple of days, fish for one day and then do some sightseeing. They definitely spend money here. Tourists come here annually for that sport.

I admit some damage was done to certain wildlife species a few years ago but that no longer happens. Gun clubs and ghillies are concerned about preventing this and there are many new restrictions, which is right.

We are very fortunate that the woodcock and snipe come to Ireland annually. Europeans come here to shoot those birds. If they shoot one or two birds their day is made. Some form of bag restriction should be introduced for tourists on the shooting of snipe and woodcock. I am a member of several gun clubs in Kerry and have been responsible for setting up numerous gun clubs. Those were not founded with the intention of taking wildlife, but for the introduction of clay pigeon shooting and to teach young people how to use firearms. I am proud that Kerry has some of the best shooting grounds in the country.

Clay pigeon shooters have not been mentioned, and they are included in the High Court judgment. Clay pigeon shooting teams have been prevented from competing in Ireland. This year there is an international clay pigeon shooting contest in Castleisland, County Kerry, of which I am very proud, but nobody has mentioned that. Our clay pigeon shooting teams have competed all over the world, and I promoted one team which competed in a world competition in Australia: our senior team came second, our ladies' team came third and our juniors came fourth. There will be 400 shooters in Castleisland next month for the international competition; they will spend a week there, which will benefit the area's tourist industry, and then they will travel around the rest of Kerry. This has not been mentioned: speakers seem to be concentrating on someone coming in with a machine gun and mowing down everything in front of him.

The only weapon people can use is the shotgun, and even use of the shotgun is restricted. I remember when a shotgun could contain five shots, but that has been lowered to three shots and one can have only 500 rounds of ammunition. Someone who shoots gets used to a certain type of cartridge, but that cartridge may not be available in the country one is going to and 500 rounds is therefore not a large amount. Anyone who says it is is talking rubbish.

The most responsible people in this sector are those in the gun clubs. Those clubs are to be commended for making their own laws. Legally they are entitled to shoot pheasant, duck, woodcock and snipe from 1 November to 31 January, but most gun clubs organise shooting restrictions among themselves, agreeing to shoot perhaps two days a week. In that way the bag can be restricted to, perhaps, two birds. That is how the gun clubs practice conservation. Talk of indiscriminate shooting is rubbish. There was a famous story of a traveller being caught at an airport with a swan, but that was a long time ago. That was wrong, but I do not blame that person; I blame the ghillie or whoever brought him to Ireland. More emphasis should be put on the responsibilities of ghillies and others who bring in these groups. They should be licensed, and if rules are broken then those licenses could be revoked and they would not be able to bring shooters to Ireland.

In the Dáil debate on this Bill the age restriction on shooting was criticised. The last international shoot in Ireland was held in Ashbourne, County Meath, and drew worldwide publicity. Two of the English shooters were 15 years old and could not compete in the junior competitions. In the United Kingdom one can hold a firearms licence at the age of 14. If one is under proper supervision I see nothing wrong with that. Those two English shooters could not compete although they were international shooters: that was regrettable.

The National Regional Games Council has done much for shooters in Ireland, particularly when legislation was introduced to stop people trespassing on farmers' lands on insurance grounds. The council then put up an insurance policy for their shooters; for this it is to be complimented. I would like the National Regional Games Council to put its resources into the restocking of birds such as grouse. Bogs have been burnt off, and there should be organised breeding facilities for grouse, a famous bird. Many people, myself included, have gone to Scotland to shoot grouse, and I have also been on shooting expeditions in England. Much could be done to bring the grouse back to our moors, and I call on the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands to make funds available to the National Regional Games Council to reintroduce grouse rearing to Ireland.

The tourists I meet do not come for grouse; they come for woodcock and snipe, and sometimes duck. Those who come to shoot pheasant are brought to estates where pheasant are reared: I have been on some of those shoots. Participants pay up to £10,000 per shoot, and I know of estates that rear up to 15,000 to 20,000 pheasants annually. Such shoots are of immense benefit to tourism in those areas.

We must bring back our native birds. There is massive potential in the boglands where the grouse could be reintroduced. Birds are not becoming extinct because tourists are shooting them; they are becoming extinct due to lack of management and to the burning of moors. Something will also have to be done about the partridge, which is almost extinct in Ireland due to the introduction of silage. There is enormous tourism potential in shooting; we are very fortunate that one of the best birds — the woodcock — comes to Ireland annually. We should be proud of that.

I am pleased that the High Court judgment has allowed us to debate this issue. If Mr. Justice Quirke had not made his judgment and if the National Association of Regional Game Councils had not been involved, we would not have had this debate, which is the first in many years to deal with firearms certificates, hunting licences for non residents and the game industry.

Senator Kiely raised the issues of breeding, management and properly developing the industry if we are to go down that road. This debate is welcome and has been facilitated by the decision of the High Court judge. Otherwise the issue of certificates and licences would have developed as in previous years with no attention being paid to what is happening in this area.

The legislation will enable the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands to grant hunting licences and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to grant firearm certificates. It will stand for a period of 12 months with a maximum addition of a further 12 months before expiring, although I am not sure whether this is clear in the provisions of the Bill. I support Senator Connor's amendment providing for an expiry of the provisions after six months. The hunting season will be over in six months and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands has promised to bring legislation before the House in the autumn concerning the granting of hunting licences for subsequent seasons. We should accept the Minister's good intentions in this regard and take on board Senator Connor's amendment.

The information being presented to us is contradictory. The Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, said 3,000 persons, normally resident outside the State, are expected to apply for hunting licences while the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform spoke of 4,000 overseas firearm certificates being issued annually. I do not know if both Ministers have failed to get their act together or if there is a simple statistical inaccuracy. However, there is a 25 per cent variation in the figures and I would like to know why this is so. It seems to suggest that accurate information is not being compiled in relation to the number of licences and firearm certificates granted.

A similar issue arises in relation to the value of the industry. The figure given is £21 million; I would like to know how this was compiled. Is it an estimate of possible downstream spending by tourists or does it relate to the cost of holidays? If the figure relates to the latter — I am not sure it does — an accurate computation can be made. I would like the Minister to state the actual figures.

Reference was made to the serious implications for 25 Irish based businesses involved in the provision of hunting holidays. What type of businesses is being referred to? Are they similar to those described by Senator Kiely, namely, hunting estates with breeding control management and supervision of the bag taken on any day? Alternatively, does it refer to ordinary, provisional, ad hoc operators with no standards or particular criteria? I suspect it is the latter. While reference is made to a niche market in the shoulder of the season, it seems a very disorganised business which lacks standards of operation.

The suggestion that pests are being controlled by non-residents who hunt here stretches the imagination. Approximately 250,000 firearm certificates are issued to our farmers and landowners who know how to control pests. By and large those who hold firearm licences are responsible and use their firearms for the control of pests and not to hunt song birds or rare birds to any great extent. There are many rare birds in Ireland, including partridge, grouse and snipe. A few decades ago these birds were widespread in uplands and boglands, but they have become rare, although not as rare as the corncrake and the cuckoo. It is important that we take cognisance of the fact that such birds are rare.

There are allegations that non-resident hunters are involved in indiscriminate slaughter, that they have no consideration or sensitivity towards wildlife and that the source of their pleasure is shooting at anything on sight. I do not know how widespread this practice is, but there seems to be no system of monitoring and patrolling hunters who visit Ireland. Has a survey been conducted of the specific birds they shoot? It has been widely stated that they are particularly partial to song birds, something not current among Irish holders of certificates. We should examine the lack of information regarding the type of regulations in place, the adequacy of patrolling or ranger services and the types of birds being hunted.

I was particularly taken by Senator Kiely's suggestion that we examine the Scottish approach of managed estates and a proper professional structure for the industry. If the industry is to be developed here — I am sure there are many who would have reservations about an industry which involves shooting game — a structure must be developed. I hope the Minister's wildlife protection Bill, which she promised to introduce in the autumn, will seriously examine the issue of habitats, including gorse, bog and heather, and that the industry will be included in submissions made regarding the manner in which it operates. This will ensure we know exactly what is being discussed and the ramifications of the Bill. Similarly, I hope the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will do his homework in reviewing the issuing of firearms certificates so that we have available to us factual information.

I understand the Bill is being introduced as commitments have been made and people have made financial outlays for holidays in Ireland. However, I am anxious not to have any slide in relation to this matter and that the legislation is purely of a temporary nature. I will support Senator Connor's amendment to limit the legislation to a maximum six month period. We expect both Ministers to do their homework and return to the House with amending legislation.

I welcome the Minister to the House. We are being asked to do nothing other than to continue a practice which has been in place for some time and caused little controversy until it arrived in the Houses of the Oireachtas. In my experience in the House I have rarely heard as much sanctimonious claptrap on any issue as I have heard over the past two days on this one. It indicates a degree of unhealthy xenophobia as if every shooting tourist coming to this country would shoot every skylark and sparrow on every highway and byway——

Exclude me from that charge.

——which is manifestly untrue. It is almost as if we were to decide English hooligans were reflective of all English supporters at the World Cup.

Does the Senator condone the damage some of these people have done?

In his contribution in the Dáil yesterday, Deputy Stagg said the second fiction is that foreign shooters are essential to control pigeons which attack crops and that he knew of no crops attacked during the hunting season because crops are not grown at that time of the year. Amazingly, a spokesman for the IFA gave credence to this nonsense. I believe I am correct in stating that at one point in his career Deputy Stagg was his party's spokesperson on agriculture. If he was the spokesperson on agriculture, it surprises me that he would state that he knows of no crops attacked during the hunting season.

As someone who has grown oilseed rape on my farm for several years, I would have had serious difficulty growing the crop in question but for the fact there were hunting tourists in the area. I tried to control pigeons over the winter period as did the Gun Club and an Olympic shot, but we failed. Somebody somewhere derived revenue from the tourists who shot the pigeons. I did not get a reward other than the protection of the crop but somebody in the economy benefited.

Let us get rid of some of this nonsense. Are we suggesting people who spend several thousand pounds to shoot at Ashford Castle or who come to shoot woodcock in Kerry over the winter months when hotels are closed and would not otherwise have tourists should be excluded? It is absolute nonsense to suggest that should be the case because it is anti-tourism.

The value of this activity to the economy is subject to debate and is based on the number of people who get licences. Let us assume 4,000 people get licences, spend £1,500 each and bring another family member with them——

The Senator is assuming a lot.

It is a reasonable assumption and is a far cry from some of the figures quoted by the Opposition in the other House.

The Ministers contradicted themselves.

In all the debates on tourism we have argued about the benefits of attracting big spenders to this country rather than the high volume low spenders who have polluted some continental countries. These are the people about whom we are talking. We are continuing a practice which has been in place and has not caused much controversy until this legislation came before the Houses.

On the question of habitat, there has been a far greater effect on habitat and wildlife arising from the agricultural practices adopted by successive generations of Irish farmers in terms of pesticides and the way silage-making is done. That is what has affected the habitat and not the burning of a grouse moor. It is good management to burn a grouse moor provided it is done at the right time of the year. It also good management from an environmental point of view to burn hillsides. Let us get rid of some of these canards which have been promoted.

Visiting anglers leaving nylon line on lakeshores are probably doing more damage to habitat than those shooting in a controlled way. I do not defend those who come here, act illegally and who shoot at everything. They should be dealt with and there should be penalties under the law. There are provisions in this legislation under which the Minister can refuse to grant firearm licences and can withdraw them. I would go further by saying there should be penalties.

We have high quality pheasant and woodcock shoots. There are farmers here and on the neighbouring island who would not be able to survive but for the fact they have commercial shoots on large properties which bring in substantial amounts of money into this economy. That must be recognised.

I grew corn crops on land I rented on a large estate in County Westmeath which was surrounded by woodland. Pigeons were a serious pest coming up to harvest time. Italian people came under controlled circumstances with a guide, stayed in guest houses in the area and shot over the crops. They did me a service which I am happy to acknowledge.

Senator Dan Kiely made a point on the age limit. I started shooting when I was 11 or 12 years of age. I agree with him that the 16 year age limit is too high and could be lowered, particularly in the context of people coming into international shooting which is another aspect of the tourism industry. Clay pigeon shooting is well organised. Like Members on both sides of each House, I fully acknowledge the contribution the gun clubs have made. They are conservationist and have ensured the survival of many species. I do not see an inconsistency between their activity and allowing visitors who are regulated and controlled to shoot over land.

On the Wildlife Bill, I recall when the National Heritage Council Bill and another Bill was passing through the House when Deputy Michael D. Higgins was Minister. I asked him when would the third plank of that raft of legislation, the Wildlife Bill, be introduced. I was told it would be introduced at an early stage. It is not only this Government but a succession of Governments which have not brought forward that legislation. In any event, I question the relevance of the Wildlife Bill to the legal control of the use of firearms for sporting purposes. The two issues are not necessarily related.

What about the destruction of game? It might be relevant to that.

Deputy Stagg referred to that in his contribution in the Dáil and I am glad Senator Connor asked me about it because I had almost forgotten about it. Deputy Stagg said game birds are shot at even when out of range. That strikes me as being the ultimate in conservation. We need more tourists like that. Let us have many tourists who come and shoot at game birds which are out of range because that would make an excellent contribution to the maintenance of the stock of rare and wild birds.

The point the Deputy was making was that these people are using weapons more powerful than those which the law allows. The Senator did not want to hear my point.

The Senator is right; we did not want to hear his point.

That is the problem of impartiality.

Acting Chairman

Senator Dardis without interruption.

I thank the Acting Chairman for his protection. Senator Connor is shooting across the House and I may be out of range like the wildlife in question.

I have experienced the benefits of people who come to shoot over my property as it helps to protect crops and I welcome their arrival. During the more detailed consideration of the Bill we might return to the question of the working group which has been set up. As with salmon licences, we might consider a 21 day licence or a short term licence for a specified period in a specified district, if necessary. I know that applies differently in the case of angling where there are different regional boards. That issue and the age limit should be looked at.

Given the single market, the freedom to travel and the free movement of capital, goods and services, it is reasonable for somebody in another EU country to want to visit Ireland to shoot and they should be able to do so. The Minister referred to section 1(3), which entitles the holding of a European firearms pass to be used as prima facie evidence. I agree with that. It is reasonable in the EU context. The legislation is reasonable. It is the result of a court case and continues an existing practice. It should be adopted without delay.

Debate adjourned.
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