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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 2000

Vol. 163 No. 21

Courts (Supplemental Provisions) (Amendment) Bill, 2000 [ Certified Money Bill ] : Committee and Remaining Stages. SECTION 1.

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

I have no real problem with this section. It is appropriate that a pension should be provided for somebody who has done the State a great service. I am glad the Minister of State is in attendance. I do not believe the provisions of the section should be confined as they are because there are other parallel anomalies in the system which the Bill could have addressed. Some of them concern women who were subjected to the marriage bar, an analogous case to the matter addressed in this Bill, particularly this section.

The Minister of State stated in her Second Stage speech that many judges did not take up the bench until relatively late in their careers and, as a matter of justice, this should be looked at.

I received a letter, for example, from a woman in Galway, which states:

I am one of those women who on marrying in 1956 was compelled to resign my job.

Now that I'm in my seventhieth year and after rearing my children and later my grandchildren, it would be heartening to receive a pension all for myself and feel independent of my husband and his pension with the few extra pounds thrown in for me as if I am just an afterthought.

That is exactly the same situation which we are addressing in this section, and I wonder if the Minister could give an indication that this kind of an anomaly would be resolved at some stage because it is directly parallel.

I received another letter from a woman which states:

I worked for the E.S.B. for a few years prior to my marriage in October 1957 when I had to resign due to the marriage bar and also to look after my eight children. I will be celebrating my sixty-sixth birthday this month with the knowledge that I am not entitled to any pension, which I think is grossly unfair, unjust and not in line with Mr. McCreevy's law of individualisation.

A third letter I received states:

When I got married in 1958, women had to give up their jobs, ‘the marriage bar'; we were denied our basic right to work. When our children were grown up and it was possible for married women to be employed we encountered the ‘age-bar', further discrimination. Ireland joining the EU put an end to institutionalized discrimination for women, our laws changed to reflect this. It hardly seems credible that in 1999 any law, scheme or service could exist which effectively discriminates against any section of the population. However, institutional discrimination still exists against older women. Having endured the ‘marriage bar', and the ‘age bar', we are now facing the ‘pension bar'.

That is exactly what was happening in the case just described.

Acting Chairman

Senator Norris, I am reluctant to interrupt you. You have now been given extreme latitude on section 1. I would have tolerated one example, but you are now in a lengthy third example.

I am most thankful to you for your latitude.

Acting Chairman

Having said that, there is a separate matter. As it is past 1 o'clock, I ask the Acting Leader of the House to indicate a change to the Order of Business.

I propose that the debate on the Bill should be completed now. The Minister of State and the Opposition are in agreement. It will be over in a matter of minutes anyway.

Acting Chairman

Is it agreed, therefore, that we will continue the debate to complete consideration of the legislation? Agreed.

I will conclude. The Acting Chairman has given me a great deal of latitude and therefore I will take a little longitude also, if I may. There is one final letter and it is from a woman who is looking for exactly the same thing. She hopes that there will be "flexibility" for women who are taxpayers.

Acting Chairman

Please do not read it out.

Finally, before the Minister of State replies, I want to read out one short paragraph from a very useful letter I received from the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, if I may, because this is directly relevant to the Bill and to this section. It states:

However, the Minister has recognised that issues remain to be addressed in this area and has ordered a review of this issue. Accordingly, the review of the existing arrangements for Homemakers will be undertaken as part of the ongoing review of eligibility conditions for contributory old age pensions. The Minister has asked that proposals be brought forward which he will consider in a budgetary context.

I am extremely grateful to you, Acting Chairman, for your generosity in allowing me this latitude and I am sure that the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Wallace, will be pleased that this matter has been raised because it will strengthen her position and that of other Ministers in looking for the rectification of precisely the same kind of anomaly which we are addressing in the case of Mr. Justice Flood. It is terribly important because the public is now so suspicious that there is a kind of circle of privilege and that people in public life and in politics look after themselves pretty well.

Not well enough.

As politicians, it is our responsibility to look after the people who do not have a voice and do not have access to public fora. I am glad that you allowed me this latitude to make the points on their behalf.

Acting Chairman

Considering that practically all of your contribution had absolutely no relevancy to section 1, I ask the Minister of State if she wishes to reply to the points made.

As Senator Norris will be aware, I have been 20 years debating the marriage bar. I know of his personal interest in it and he knows of mine. As the Acting Chairman stated, both of us can be ruled out of order for debating it under this legislation, but it is an important issue. Unfortunately, as the Acting Chairman stated, it is not the subject of the legislation with which we are dealing here, but I think everybody knows that. We are dealing with the traditional pensions under the 1961 Act. The matters raised by Senator Norris, important as they are, are to be dealt with under the other public service pensions legislation another day.

It is important that I should stress again that the legislation relates to appointment to the Judiciary and the fact that these appointments made by the traditional Appointments Advisory Board and the Government must be open to the widest possible selection, but the fact is that many people who take up these appointments suffer large reductions in income on becoming members of the Judiciary. They are appointed to the positions because of their experience in life. The area covered under section 1 is important and we need to be clear about it.

While I am conscious not to stray too much from the debate, although I could talk all day about the issue raised by the Senator, it is critical that I again point out, as Senator John Cregan did, that the legislation refers to a specific case. Although it is legislation dealing with the courts, it does not apply even to any other judge involved. It would be saver for us to keep it as clear as that.

Acting Chairman

I am grateful to the Minister of State. Senator Norris can console himself with the fact that at least the Minister of State is in empathy with all the comments he made.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.

Acting Chairman

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 23 June 2000.

The Seanad adjourned at 1.07 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 23 June 2000.

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