Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 31 Jan 2012

Vol. 213 No. 1

Adjournment Matters

Official Engagements

Senator Thomas Byrne

Gabhaim buíochas as an deis seo a labhairt ar an díospóireacht seo anocht. I will be brief and, with some leeway from the Cathaoirleach, will contribute again when the Minister concludes.

It was suggested to me locally, including at a meeting at which Government Deputies were present, that as a matter of policy the Minister for Education and Skills did not visit schools and that as such, there was no point in even inviting him to the school in which the meeting was being held. Subsequently, I heard second hand that the same issue had arisen for another school. Is there such a policy and, if so, what is the rationale for it and will it be continued? After I have heard the Minister's remarks, I might respond.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Ruairí Quinn)

The tradition is for the Minister for Education and Skills to be invited to open a new school. However, I hold the view that a community should celebrate a new school's opening — possibly the continuation of a school tradition — by inviting a prominent person from that community. It reflects a centrist attitude among schools that their only relationship is with the Department of Education and Skills. Furthermore, some of my predecessors spent a considerable amount of time visiting schools for no particular benefit in the sense of not being present in the Department to progress legislation and the necessary works that required ministerial involvement. We have a sizable reform programme that requires a great deal of time and attention. This is my priority, but I have not, as a matter of policy, decided that I will not visit schools. The record will show that I have visited a number.

I have a diary meeting once a week and it takes me an hour and a half to go through all of the requests received to visit schools, attend functions or engage in other activities, some of which relate to education remotely, while some are centrally related, for example, meeting groups involved in education. I visit schools, attend functions and engage in other types of activity, some of it remotely related to education and other elements of it centrally related to education, including meeting groups involved in education. I have to ration my time as best I can.

Senator Thomas Byrne

I note the Minister's comments. However, what he said makes liars of various rural Deputies who say, when requests are made indirectly through them, that the Minister does not visit schools. I accept the Minister's statement that he does visit schools and that he has not visited as many as he would like. I put it to him that it is crucial that he visits a reasonable number of schools and that he is aware of what is happening on the ground.

Several smaller schools are anxious that the Minister visit them to see how they operate. That would be beneficial. The special school in Navan which was keen on a visit by the Minister was told that he does not visit schools. I was present when that was told to them by a Deputy. I will inform them of what the Minister had to say today.

As correctly stated by the Minister, it is important in developing national policy, that practical knowledge be applied. It is a big occasion for a community when a Minister for education visits a school. I recall a former Minister, Ms Gemma Hussey, visiting the primary school I attended, while the former Minister, Mrs. Mary O'Rourke, visited the secondary school I attended. I encourage the Minister to visit as many schools as possible. I thank him for his clarification on this issue.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I visit some schools. I do not want the impression conveyed that I have made a liar out of anybody. I could spend three days a week visiting schools. How do I decide which schools to visit? I do not see my function as one of visiting schools, except where doing so is necessary or appropriate. I have on occasion been asked to visit a school and open a new extension and have referred such invitation to a senior party or Government colleague from the constituency concerned, which I believe is appropriate. In so far as this applies, that will continue to be my policy.

School Staffing

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Minister for coming to the House to take this Adjournment matter. There has been much speculation and discussion on the decision to cut career guidance teacher numbers. I would like to come at this issue from a different slant. There are several secondary schools in my constituency with between 200 and 300 pupils. As such, they do not have the magic 500 required to have a dedicated career guidance counsellor. In recent few weeks, I have spoken to a number of part-time career guidance counsellors about this decision. Some of them divide their time between career guidance and teaching in the classroom. In other words, they provide career guidance for 11 hours and teach in the classroom for a further 11 hours, which is the ideal scenario in terms of career guidance.

It is important that career guidance counsellors are involved in teaching for a number of hours but are available to students to assist on issues such as completion of CAO forms and so on. Also, career guidance offers teachers an opportunity to engage on a one-to-one basis with students with whom they could not engage in a classroom setting. One of the career guidance counsellors to whom I spoke told me that while previously she engaged in career guidance-teaching on a 50:50 basis, as a result of this cut she would only provide three hours of career guidance. This means it will only be possible to work in a classroom environment and there will be no one-to-one intervention into the future, which causes me some concern.

Like many of my colleagues, I did not benefit from career guidance when I was at school. The one-to-one approach is extremely important. Removal of this service means vulnerable students will fall through the cracks. Students whose families can afford to retain professional career guidance will have choices, options and contacts in terms of their aspirations to attend college and so on. The last thing we want — I am sure the Minister will agree — is for the most vulnerable in our society to suffer as a result of this cut. This will force school managers to concentrate on the core subjects and career guidance will be an addition, if possible. It will not be a necessary centre plank of second level education. I accept that reform in this area was needed and that there are probably better ways of providing this service than has been the case up to now. I do not believe telling schools this service must now be provided out of budget is the right way to go. This will force school managers trying to compete with the current points system to kick career guidance down the line. The brightest always seem to shine and set the agendas within the classroom, leaving the vulnerable students at the back of the classroom, who possibly do not come from a background which instilled confidence in them, to fall through the cracks. I look forward to the Minister's reply.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I appreciate the Senator's remarks. We are in the difficult situation of having to reduce our expenditure, a message that must be repeated on a daily basis as people tend to forget it. In looking at reduction of resources in the secondary school sector I was faced with the option of disimproving the general pupil-teacher ratio. What persuaded me against that was that, unlike in the primary school sector, such a reduction could result in the loss of a language or science teacher in a particular school, in schools with enrolments of between 250 and 400 as against those with a complement of 1,000 pupils, which is the proposed benchmark in terms of resource or second teachers. In an effort to have minimum impact on total activity in the secondary school, I felt absorbing guidance counsellors into the general allocation of teachers would have a better negative impact — if that is not a contradiction in terms — than would disimproving the pupil-teacher ratio.

Some 42% of 730 secondary schools do not have a dedicated guidance teacher. There is a requirement on all secondary schools, through the Education Act 1998, to provide for guidance and we will issue a circular to deal with that in a specific way. I take the Senator's point in respect of guidance, given the difficult times we are in and from what I have learned from guidance counsellors prior to and since this decision was taken, namely, that the pastoral care element of the service as distinct from career guidance has sadly but increasingly become necessary because of the change in Irish society. The whole school community and subject teacher have responsibilities in this regard. Young people reflect the stresses and strains of home and are affected by family breakdown, loss of employment and the tensions which can occur within a family from time to time. A professional teacher will pick up fairly quickly on any changes in the performance in the classroom of students who are normally good at mathematics, English, Irish or whatever. The person in question may not seek the help of a guidance counsellor in a pastoral sense. Many teachers engaged in teaching a classroom subject will find themselves engaged in some form of pastoral care. Where a serious matter arises, it can be addressed by the principals and deputy principals. I had to make a choice, which I made based on advice. I know this decision has caused some concern among guidance counsellors. However, I assured the representatives with whom I met that the circular which will issue to schools between now and commencement of the next academic year will draw the attention of schools to their obligations under the Education Act 1998.

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Minister for his reply. It is important that schools are reminded of their responsibilities under the Education Act 1998. I come from a rural area four hours from Dublin and one hour from Galway and Limerick. Children going to school in cities and their commuter belts tend to be better informed. While teachers have expertise in their own fields, if the career guidance element ceases to be a priority, the broad church of knowledge which a career guidance teacher or counsellor is required to possess will be compromised.

I do not question the Minister's bona fides. Before the general election he told a Teachers Union of Ireland conference that the country was broke. He was right and we must repeat this every day. Like him, I am trying to achieve the fairest and best outcome for eveyone. I look forward to seeing his circular and its impact in due course.

Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Baineann an rún seo le Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta, MFG, Teo. Seo comhlacht páirtnéireachta a bhí ag cur seirbhísí tábhachtacha ar fáil do phobal na Gaeltachta, go háirithe na cláir éagsúla a bhí ar siúl acu cosúil le clár Leader, Regional Development Programme, agus an clár áitiúil, Local Development Social Inclusion Programme, LDSIP. Chuir an comhlacht cúrsaí tréanála i bhfeidhm chomh maith. Is í an scéim is tábhachtaí, i mo thuairim, an ceann a cuireadh ar fáil faoi scéim Leader, mar go raibh an Ghaeltacht in ann buntáiste a fháil as an scéim sin go sonrach nuair a bhí sí i bhfeidhm.

Ar an drochuair, níl MFG ann níos mó. Ar 7 Meán Fómhair anuraidh, rinne bord MFG cinneadh deireadh a chur leis an chomhlacht de bharr impleachtaí trádála agus de bhrí go raibh deacrachtaí ag an chomhlacht féin. Dá bhrí sin, tá pobal na Gaeltachta ag cailleadh amach anois. Tá sé beagnach cúig mhí ó ghlach bord MFG an cinneadh deireadh a chur leis an chomhlacht.

MFG was a partnership company, like Louth Leader Partnership or Donegal Local Development Company Limited. It provided excellent services. It had staff employed and was administering Leader funds, the only funds available to many small businesses and community organisations. Since the board of MFG Teoranta decided to wind down on 7 September last year, no services are being provided and no Leader funds are going into the Donegal Gaeltacht because no administration structure is in place. It is now almost five months since it wound down, yet no alternative mechanism or administration process has been put in place to allow the transfer of Leader funds to Gaeltacht projects. As a result, the Gaeltacht is losing out.

I raise this matter in order to find out what progress has been made on the establishment of a new Gaeltacht partnership company located in the Gaeltacht and what opportunities will be available to the former staff of MFG or others who could be employed in the new partnership company. Does the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government have alternative solutions to the problem which has been ongoing for five months? The people of the Gaeltacht want Leader funds to be made available to projects. Leader funds available from 2007 to 2013 under Pillar ll of the Common Agricultural Policy amount to more than €5 billion and it is not fair that in the past five or six months Gaeltacht projects have been losing out.

The rural transport service is also losing out. Some operators in Gaeltacht areas were not paid before the company wound up. They are owed substantial amounts of money and unable to find out if they will ever see the money they are owed, even though it was paid by the Health Service Executive to MFG Teoranta which is now in liquidation. There must be some obligation on the Government to step in and resolve the issue, to end the uncertainty and pay those who are owed money. They include the former staff of MFG who have, to date, received only the statutory redundancy payment from the Department of Social Protection. They have not, as yet, received any redundancy payment from the company.

I hope the Minister of State will have some news for us because this issue has been ongoing for far too long. I understand there are legal and technical difficulties, but they must be resolved and Leader funds restored to Gaeltacht communities which are losing out.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Fergus O’Dowd)

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill as ucht an rúin seo a chur faoi bhráid an tSeanaid. Tá an freagra as Béarla, ach cuirfidh mé Gaeilge ar an chéad chuid de, más féidir liom. Comhlacht áitiúil do Ghaeltachtaí is ea Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta Teoranta, go mórmhór do Ghaeltachtaí ins na contaetha seo a leanas, Corcaí, Ciarraí, Dún na nGall, Gaillimh, Maigh Eo, an Mhí agus Port Láirge.

MFG was an independent company with its own board of management and memorandum and articles of association which had responsibility under company law for the proper stewardship of the company. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has no role in the internal operations of local development-partnership companies. However, MFG was under contract to the Department and operated a number of programmes both for it and other Departments. Programmes delivered by it for it included rural walkways, the rural development programme, RDP, Leader, and the local and community development programme, LCDP. MFG ceased trading on 7 September 2011 and is going though a company liquidation process.

We understand the difficulty the recent dissolution of the company presents for the staff and project promoters in Gaeltacht areas. However, it is incumbent on the Minister and the Department to ensure any solution arrived at will ensure the continued effective delivery of services in Gaeltacht areas previously supplied by the company. Such services must be delivered in the most efficient manner possible and in compliance with all legal obligations, including national and EU obligations.

No final decisions have been made on an alternative delivery mechanism for RDP support in Gaeltacht areas. When determining alternative delivery mechanisms for the RDP and other programmes, there are complex legal and contractual issues to be resolved. The Department is considering both long and short-term solutions to allow the continued delivery of the RDP and other programmes in Gaeltacht areas.

I can confirm that significant progress is being made. All relevant RDP, Leader, project files have been released by the liquidator and are now with the Department and all project promoters will be contacted shortly. The Department has had discussions with the European Commission and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the RDP and is working with them to ensure any solutions will be regulatory compliant. It is the intention of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, to find a solution that will be efficient and effective and applied at the earliest possible opportunity. All relevant stakeholders will be notified once a suitable solution is determined.

Rent Supplement Payments

Senator Mark Daly

My query relates to the payment of rent allowance directly to persons in receipt of social welfare benefits. This system was changed a number of years ago in order that landlords would no longer receive the rent allowance and that it would be paid directly to social welfare recipients. I have received information from a number of agents that recipients of rent allowance are telling their landlords that their rent allowance has been cut. Of course, landlords are hearing on radio that all manner of cuts have been imposed. The landlord and the agent will often reduce the rent for the social welfare recipient but the social welfare recipient has overstated the amount of the reduction in his social welfare allowance and he is pocketing an extra few bob from social welfare. This is the reason I have raised this matter and I ask if it would be possible to revert to the old system whereby the landlord is paid directly by the Department and in this way the amount of the allowance would be known. The landlord would be paid the rent payable in that particular social welfare area. I know the Minister's office has conducted research on rent payments. An agent contacted the Department of Social Protection office in Tralee and pointed out what was happening in reality, that people in receipt of social welfare payments were receiving the allowance and were telling the landlord that the allowance had been cut in order that they could obtain a reduction in the rent of €20 to €40, while the allowance might have been cut by a mere €15. In such a case, the landlord will have reduced the rent substantially but the guy has a profit of €15 a week or a month. This is happening in many towns and I know it is happening in the Kenmare area where landlords are being told that allowances have been cut and that they should cut the rent by €50 in some cases. The recipient is then profiting. The form should be signed by the landlord detailing the rent amount and this should be sent directly to the social welfare agent in charge of the case file. There are a number of anomalies in the system. The rent is now not paid directly to the landlord but there is a lot of money being wasted which could be used elsewhere by the Department rather than landlords and their agents reducing the rent to social welfare recipients and people making money out of the difference. I suggest the Minister should revert to the previous system whereby the money would be paid directly to the landlord.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I thank the Senator for raising this matter. The purpose of rent supplement is to provide short-term support for eligible people living in private rented accommodation, whose means are insufficient to meet their accommodation costs and who do not have accommodation available to them from any other source. The scheme is intended as a temporary income support payment and is not designed to be a medium to long-term housing support or a permanent solution to a person's housing needs.

Under the legislative provisions governing rent supplement, the Department's relationship is with the tenant who in turn makes the application for rent supplement and payment is made to the tenant. Rent supplement is specifically for the benefit of tenants to assist them with their accommodation needs. There is no direct relationship between the landlord and the Department in the administration of the scheme.

Under the current arrangements, even with direct payment, landlords must collect the tenant contribution towards the rent, a minimum of €120 per month. The amount of rent supplement payable depends on the tenant's income. In some cases tenants pay only the minimum contribution while in other cases tenants make an additional contribution to their rent based on their financial circumstances. For example, where a person is in part-time employment and receives just 10% of his or her rent directly from the State, the landlord would receive the 10% directly while collecting the 90% from the tenant. Account will be taken of cases where a tenant is in a lease agreement which has a number of months to go before cessation. While tenants will be expected to try to renegotiate their rent, where this is not possible payments at the old rate may continue. However, once the lease has expired the tenant will be expected to find suitable accommodation at or below the new limits in force.

If the Department were to become involved in the negotiations of rental agreements directly with landlords, the efficiency of the scheme would be significantly affected. For example, the Department would potentially have to create a formal relationship with some 96,000 additional clients, the landlords. This would involve greater complexity and significant resources to deal with a new set of third parties. There are no plans to amend the scheme so that rent supplement is the entitlement of the landlord.

It would not be an effective use of resources to have departmental staff negotiating rental agreements for those with a short-term need who generally enter the scheme with an existing tenancy agreement in place and leave again when they re-enter the workforce.

The Senator will be aware that the Government has effectively two initiatives to deal with long-term reliance on rent supplement. The rental accommodation scheme is in operation since 2004 and the new housing policy initiative was announced on 16 June 2011 by my colleagues the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and planning. Both initiatives give the local authorities specific responsibility for meeting the long-term housing needs of people receiving rent supplement. Latest figures show that since its inception, over 37,700 rent supplement tenancies have now been transferred from rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme and other social housing options.

The Seanad adjourned at 7.15 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 1 February 2012.