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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jun 2012

Vol. 215 No. 16

Business Undertakings (Disclosure of Overpayments) Bill 2012: Second Stage

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. This proposal arises from the need for ethics and transparency regarding overpayments which occur in the course of business transactions. The Bill does not seek radically to alter how business is done or essentially to create new rights where there is none. Rather, it seeks to address an issue which presents a real difficulty and potential injustice in regard to the question of overpayments. The background to the Bill is relatively simple. In a business transaction where one party, whether a private individual or a company, overpays another, there is no statutory obligation on the party receiving the overpayment to give notice of the fact to the payer or return the payment unasked. Statute law has been strangely silent on the matter. There are instances where the recipient will duly notify the person who overpaid or where the overpaying party discovers the error and promptly seeks a refund. However, there are many instances where there is not this beneficial outcome, either through a deliberate intention of the recipient to exploit the situation or for incidental reasons.

The common law terms an overpayment which is not returned or otherwise disposed of correctly between the parties as unjust enrichment and the description is apt. The party that receives the overpayment has certainly been enriched, but the enrichment is not one which can be justified. The common law allows in principle a claim for restitution based on moneys had and received . However, the route of a civil claim is hardly a desirable one and will be costly and protracted. It cannot even be embarked upon unless one knows of the overpayment and it may not be effective in terms of timeframe if delay means a greater risk of inability to repay on the part of the recipient. In short, dealing with the matter solely within the confines of the common law is inadequate. Statutory regulation focusing primarily on requirements of disclosure and a duty of co-operation is the preferred and necessary route. Such a path would provide a balance of rights for all parties and promote fair outcomes.

Overpayments in the course of business are common and occur for many reasons. Among the more obvious instances are inadvertently paying the same invoice twice or simple calculation errors. They also extend to situations where there is no physical transfer of cash but where credits due are not taken, resulting in loss to one party and unjust enrichment for the other. The multiplicity of trade transactions taking place daily, ranging from the complex electronic payment runs of large companies to a farmer paying his or her bills to a local co-operative, for example, contains innumerable possibilities for overpayment to occur. Legislative provision which affords protection to an overpaying party and instills confidence that the matter will not be exploited would be of real benefit to all who make payments for goods or services. The Bill, it should be noted, would extend to all overpayments made in the course of business transactions, irrespective of whether the payment was made by an individual or incorporated entity.

It is useful to consider an example of how an overpayment can be treated in a way that is grossly opportunistic. Let us say a small trader accidentally duplicates payment of an invoice for €5,000 to a supplier. He or she has not reconciled a statement from his or her largest supplier and makes the overpayment as he or she rushes to achieve a month-end payment deadline. The supplier has a policy of saying nothing about excess payments and of leaving them on the debtors ledger for six months, only refunding or otherwise affording value to the payer if requested to do so. To make matters worse, this supplier does not display the excess payments on a statement of account to the customer. At the end of the six-month period, it is the supplier's policy to treat any unclaimed payments or credits as unearned profits. In the situation just described, the supplier has broken no law and, amazingly, has not departed from the rules of accounting as interpreted in Ireland.

Unless our hypothetical small trader subsequently discovers his or her error — the chances are he or she may not — he or she has lost €5,000. Assuming a net profit is 6%, he or she would have to obtain additional new business of more than €83,000 merely to break even from this situation. He or she should not have to do this nor should the supplier have the gratuitous benefit of money for which he or she provided neither goods nor services. Under the Bill, this situation would not be allowed to arise because of duties of disclosure and prohibition of any form of concealment of the overpaid sum. As stated in its explanatory memorandum, this Bill closes avenues to a range of fraudulent and suspicious practices.

Are overpayments frequent and can they accumulate to large amounts? Let me give the answer to that question by reference to a topical first tier tax tribunal case in Britain in 2010 — the case of Pertemps Recruitment Partnership Limited v. HMRC. Although the question here was the taxable status of overpayments rather than issues as to how they were handled, the facts given in the case about the extent of such payments were staggering. In a five-year period from 1999 to 2003, the company received £1.6 million of unreconciled payments equating to 0.18% of the value of the company’s turnover. While by no means all of the payments were left unrefunded, it was noted that in one financial year, 990 individual payments amounting in total to £486,000 failed to be reconciled and were transferred to the profit and loss account. If the overpayment level evident in this case was replicated even partially in business in Ireland, then the problem must be very widespread indeed and the extent of the money involved must be very large.

The Irish Institute of Credit Management, a professional body with more than 40 years experience at the coalface of debtor-creditor interaction, has responded to the problem of overpayments by issuing guidance notes for the treatment of trade overpayments in May 2011. In the foreword, it refers to the prevalence of the issue of overpayments and a lack of uniformity in how they are treated and how some businesses seek to reclassify such receipts as unearned profits without any reference to the customer and to how a substantial injustice could be done to the overpaying party. The IICM recommends a number of measures for the correct treatment of overpayments with the need for adequate disclosure being central to best practice.

In Britain the Auditing Practices Board has registered strong concern about retained overpayments in its 2010 practice note on money laundering. The APB states that the auditor considers whether the retention of the overpayments might amount to theft by the audit client from the customer and, if so, the client will be in possession of the proceeds of its crimes, a money laundering offence. That point drew particular support from the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants.

In Ireland, we already have an excellent system for dealing with abandoned balances in financial institutions, thanks to the Dormant Accounts Acts 2001 to 2005. The provisions of the Acts have generated a strong culture of due diligence and follow up with customers regarding inactive balances long ahead of the statutory dormancy period. The Business Undertakings (Disclosure of Overpayments) Bill 2012 would drive a similar culture of transparency in the business sector with little cost to the State. Aligning the two sectors, financial services and business activity, in regard to duties of disclosure would effect a welcome cohesion in supporting customers rights.

The United States has long recognised and dealt with the issue of overpayments in the context of its unclaimed property law. Each state is required to establish and administer a law on unclaimed intangible personal property in line with the general principles of the Federal Unclaimed Property Act 1995 which instances credit balances, customer overpayment, credit memorandum — another phrase for credit notes — and unidentified remittence. These are among the wide range of items governed by the Act. These are headings we now seek to include under rules of disclosure.

In the US, these balances must either be reunited with those entitled to receive them or, if not, they must be transferred to the custody of the local state treasury at the expiration of three years. I am sure that is not something to which the Minister would object in principle at a time when sources of income are hard to come by from the State's point of view. A rightful owner can, however, claim from the State fund in perpetuity. That is also a feature we find in the Dormant Accounts Acts.

As I have outlined, this Bill sets out to address a real and serious need for probity in these areas of financial transactions. It nonetheless avoids introducing onerous burdens which would only hinder the dynamics of business administration. Its real beneficiaries would be the paying public and business communities whose discharge of their debts makes an ongoing and absolutely necessary contribution to economic life. This Bill removes from them the danger that an inadvertent mistake on their part will ever be seized upon by an unscrupulous creditor availing of a gap in regulation.

This is a practical measure to enhance the standards of a more ethical Ireland where hopefully many types of inappropriate practices, and not just those which are the subject matter of this Bill, will soon become a thing of the past.

Mar sin, creidim go bhfuil sé an-tábhachtach go dtacódh an Rialtas leis an mBille seo. Tá ceachtanna deacra foghlamtha againn le blianta beaga anuas, maidir le mí-iompair de chineálacha éagsúla i gcúrsaí gnó. Tá deis anseo ag an Rialtas cabhrú, go háirithe le gnólachtaí agus le comhlachtaí beaga, mar is iad is mó a bhíonn thíos le haon ró-íocaíocht nuair nach gcuirtear ar a súile dóibh é.

D'fhéadfaimís dul níos faide agus struchtúr a chothú a thabharfadh deis don Stát roinnt airgid a bhailiú sa chás nach mbeadh comhlachtaí in ann foinsí an airgid a aimsiú. Is fiú a rá, freisin, gur minic gurb iad an Roinn Coimirce Sóisialaí agus na Coimisinéirí Ioncaim a bheadh ag tabhart ró-íocaíochta. Mar sin, ba chóir go mbeadh suim ag an Stát agus ag an Rialtas sa mhéid atá molta anseo.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. It is always a pleasure to listen to this Minister. I second Senator Mullen's Bill. It is trying to extend the dormant accounts legislation to include other forms of dormant property and to increase the property rights of persons over such property. Senator Mullen mentioned the US Federal Unclaimed Property Act 1995. We Googled it today and found that there is $32.88 billion outstanding in that fund. This appears to be an area worth looking into. We did it with dormant accounts.

In terms of my personal finances, I dislike standing orders and direct debits because I do not want to pay too much as it is difficult to get it back. Senator Mullen referred to the Irish Institute of Credit Management, the fact overpayments end up as unearned profits, the case in the United Kingdom where £486,000 sterling was transferred to the profit and loss account in one case alone, and the concerns of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants.

Assets in general, whether deposits due back from landlords, insurance policies not claimed, travellers cheques, money orders, unclaimed wages and individual retirement accounts, are all property which should not fall by default into the hands of the person to whom the payment is made. There is scope for us to look at the extent of this problem, along with the National Consumer Agency, the Citizens Advice Bureau and MABS.

This morning the Leader has informed us that the Government intends to move against moneylenders on the basis of taking money that is not properly theirs where persons pay too much for money. I gather the Government also intends to reduce the interest rates they can charge and act against those who overcharge.

This is interesting new legislation. Some Government Senators have stated that this problem has only been tackled as systematically in the United States as in Senator Rónán Mullen's Bill. It would be of value to find out whether this is a cause of a person's financial problems and whether the Oireachtas could help in the resolution of these problems. One may take it that power in society frequently rests with those in companies who take in these payments and that it can be difficult for individual citizens to get their money back. Senator Rónán Mullen has raised important issues that are well worth discussing in the House. I look forward very much to hearing the Minister's response.

I thank Senator Rónán Mullen for raising this issue and tabling the Bill. We all need to look at areas where, perhaps, the business environment can be improved. However, at a time when many enterprises are already complaining about excessive regulatory burdens, my Department must be extremely careful to ensure the imposition of a new regulatory burden is justified and proportionate. The basis for the regulatory regime outlined in the Bill has not been established and, unfortunately, I will not be able to support the Bill as a consequence.

The core provisions of the Bill are set out in section 2 which, first, provides that where an undertaking receives an overpayment of more than €25 from a business, it should furnish details of the overpayment to that business within 20 working days and seek its instructions as to how the overpayment should be corrected. Second, the undertaking that has received the overpayment should make available to the business that has made the overpayment such additional information as it may reasonably request to investigate the overpayment. Third, the undertaking that has received the overpayment should comply in a timely manner with the reasonable instructions of the business that has made the overpayment regarding the return, offset or other disposal of the overpaid sum.

The Bill goes on to deal with the investigation and enforcement of alleged breaches of section 2. Section 3 provides that a person would be able to request the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to investigate alleged breaches of the provisions of section 2. Section 4 would empower the Minister to appoint authorised officers to investigate such breaches and sets out the powers of such officers and the requirement on persons under investigation to co-operate with authorised officers. Sections 5 and 6 deal with offences and penalties, including offences by corporate bodies, while section 7 outlines the defences that would be available to persons charged.

A regulatory architecture is being designed to deal with this problem. Our principal objection to the Bill is that it has not satisfied the most basic test of the principles of better regulation to demonstrate that it is necessary to create that architecture which would have both significant obligations in terms of tracking accountants and movements of cash and compliance requirements for the Department to set up procedures for investigation and enforcement, etc. That is the background against which I must view this issue at a time when we, as a nation, are seeking to reduce the regulatory burdens we impose on business, particularly small business. My Department has recently completed a process of reducing administrative burdens by 25%. We have recently reached that benchmark.

On the principles we are applying to new regulations, the first task is to establish convincingly the regulatory impact assessment or the benefit compared to the cost. In this case, no such need has been established. The explanatory memorandum asserts that there is an important regulatory gap, but no empirical evidence is produced of any such gap. I hear the Senator quoting United States data which, as I understand it, from our investigations, apply in different circumstances.

The explanatory memorandum argues that the multiplicity of trade payment transactions taking place daily and the often impersonal and system-driven nature of these transactions create what is called "a ready possibility" for overpayment. That may be the case, but it also demonstrates the significant tracking requirements that would be imposed in seeking to keep track and ensure none of these represented overpayments. We need to have proper evidence to show that new regulatory obligations are needed and would be proportionate. That is an important principle.

The explanatory memorandum goes on to state the absence of a more regulated environment has led to "unmistakable incidences" of retention and unilateral appropriation of trade overpayments and other credits, but it gives no information on either the scale or severity of such practices. While my Department has not had much time to research the matter, it has not come across evidence to date to suggest overpayment is a significant problem or a serious concern for businesses operating in Ireland. The Senator will recall that the Small Business Forum which reported in 2006 undertook a comprehensive review of the environment for small business in Ireland and that it made no mention of the matter, nor did its predecessor, the small business task force, which reported in 1994. As he will be aware, the Minister of State with responsibility for small business, Deputy John Perry, has an advisory group on small business established within the Department. Its action plan, produced in November 2011, made no reference to this issue. In contrast, it has sought to ensure we will take a number of measures to look at regulatory burdens in other areas. We are undertaking an audit of licences issued, the allegation being there are far too many licences issued, requiring compliance by persons in various trades in order to set up and become established. We are devoting resources, constrained as they are, to delivering on this agenda. The various inquiries have voiced concerns about all sorts of matters such as late payments, non-payments and underpayments but nothing in respect of overpayments. I must focus the resources available to my Department on investigating the capacity to reduce existing burdens. In reducing regulatory burdens, it is an onerous task for Departments to establish whether we can safely reduce certain burdens. That is the focus of my work.

Senators Ronán Mullen and Sean D. Barrett cited dormant accounts as an exemplar. In these cases there was a substantial amount of work done to establish that there was a serious problem. In the case of dormant accounts, there was clear evidence that the problem being addressed was substantial. Inquiries undertaken by the Department of Finance in advance of the introduction of the legislation in 2001 had established that the number of dormant accounts — defined as accounts in which there had been no customer-initiated transaction for 15 years — could be in excess of 840,000 and their value in the order of €130 million. These estimates have been broadly borne out by the fact that the transfers to the Dormant Accounts Fund, from the date of its establishment in April 2003 to February 2012, totalled €631 million, including earned interest of €36 million.

I repeat that the time available to my Department to research the issue has been limited, but we have come across no example of comparable legislation in other jurisdictions. The apparent absence of such legislation in other countries supports the view that there is no evidence of a regulatory deficit regarding overpayments that needs to be addressed by statutory means. At a time when our overriding concern must be to enhance the competitiveness of Irish enterprises, we need to look critically at the imposition of regulatory burdens on enterprise which, to the best of our knowledge, have no counterparts in the economies with which we trade and compete. While there are legislative provisions governing the disclosure of significant overpayments in the United States, these apply to the award or performance of government contracts or sub-contracts. The enactment of these provisions appears to have been prompted by concerns that government agencies were overpaying private contractors for goods and services and that these overpayments were not being reported by some contractors. The Bill before the House, however, would not appear to cover overpayments by public service bodies as it defines an "overpayment" as one received by an undertaking "from a person in the course of trade".

It is also questionable whether a problem of this nature should be tackled by means of legislative provisions along the lines proposed. It would also need to be shown that the existing remedies available to businesses where they had made an overpayment were inadequate. As the explanatory memorandum notes, the common law provides a ready restitutionary remedy for money paid under a mistake of fact. As Lord Wright observed in the leading English case, Fibrosa v. Fairbairn Lawson: “It is clear that any civilised system of law is bound to provide remedies for cases of what has been called unjust enrichment or unjust benefit, that is to prevent a man from retaining the money of or some benefit derived from, another which it is against conscience that he should keep.”

There is no suggestion in the explanatory memorandum that the existing legal remedies are inadequate or unsatisfactory. Even if the Bill were to be adopted, it would be up to the business that had made the overpayment to take a civil action to recover it. The Bill's enforcement provisions deal only with criminal penalties for persons found guilty of breaches of the obligations to disclose and correct overpayments.

Senator Rónán Mullen referred to rules such as accountancy rules and auditing practice. Rather than creating statutory penalties or large enforcement regimes, the route proposed in the legislation, there may be more fruitful avenues for ensuring good practice prevails across the system. Even if there were evidence to show that inadvertent overpayments occurred on a significant scale, it would not necessarily justify the introduction of statutory provisions along the lines proposed. If the business that makes the overpayment acts in error, it is not unreasonable to assume that the business that receives the overpayment may also do so in error. Subject to the defences provided for in section 7, the effect of the Bill would be arguably to require a higher level of administrative and accounting competence and diligence from the payee than from the payer. A case can reasonably be made that the obligation to ensure payment is made in the correct amount rests in the first instance with the payer. In many cases, for example, in the case of a supermarket chain paying a small supplier, the business making the payment will be larger and better resourced than the business receiving it. Should we expect a small business with no developed finance function to apprehend and correct a payment error made by a supermarket chain with a large accounts department?

This is not consumer legislation designed to protect vulnerable consumers dealing with businesses possessed of superior knowledge and resources. Its focus is solely on overpayments in business to business transactions. It is a well established policy precept in this and other jurisdictions that the threshold for regulatory intervention is substantially and justifiably higher for business to business transactions than for business to consumer transactions.

I have referred to the need to ensure additional unnecessary obligations are not placed on businesses in the current difficult economic and trading climate. It is no less important to ensure additional financial burdens are not placed on the Exchequer in the current difficult budgetary conditions. The proposed legislation would require the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to appoint authorised officers to investigate complaints of non-compliance with its provisions and, where required, initiate court proceedings in respect of such breaches. Another inspectorate is not something enterprises are seeking or would happily embrace. While an estimate of the cost of the additional posts is not provided, it would not be insignificant. In a context where every aspect of public expenditure has to be examined and justified, it is reasonable to ask whether the State should be expected to meet the costs arising from the failure of private businesses to make the correct payments to the businesses with which they deal. Even if the public finances were in robust health, the case for such expenditure would be open to question. In the current extremely difficult budgetary climate additional expenditure for this purpose cannot be justified.

While I commend the Senator for taking the initiative to bring forward this measure, I ask the House to oppose the Bill. No evidence has been produced to show that the problem it seeks to address is significant and no other jurisdiction of which we are aware has seen fit to introduce similar legislative provisions. There are adequate remedies for businesses that wish to retrieve overpayments of which they become aware. Businesses that make overpayments of which they remain unaware should seek to improve their payments systems rather than look to the State to correct their negligence.

While I recognise that the Bill has been introduced in good faith and addresses an area in which regrettable cases of people having lost out have come to light, the correct approach is not statutory and does not involve inspectorates and regulatory requirements. If the Senator is to develop the legislation further, perhaps it should be done on the basis of codes of practice for the accountancy profession and improving the payment systems of private companies to track such payments. The bread and butter of business are keeping track of cash inflows and outflows. This, as opposed to establishing a legally onerous infrastructure or architecture, is the way to tackle the issue under discussion. The Senator's case has not been justified.

I commend Senator Rónán Mullen on preparing and bringing the Bill before the House. It is an interesting debate and I thank the Minister for his considered and thought provoking response. He has made a fair point in noting the task he faces in reducing the regulatory burden on business, especially the small and medium-sized enterprise sector. In this instance, it is necessary to balance the rights of the customer with the need to ensure the regulatory burden on business is not excessive. On balance and having examined the Bill, the Fianna Fáil Party errs on the side of the rights of the consumer and supports the Bill.

Perhaps Senator Rónán Mullen might refine section 4 which would empower the Minister to appoint authorised officers and an inspectorate. Having listened to the Minister's comments on the section, I am unsure as to whether it is the correct approach. Notwithstanding this, it is important to have in legislation a statutory obligation, albeit one that does not place an onerous burden of responsibility on the Department. In the case of many other statutory codes, it has not been necessary to appoint an inspectorate or additional officers for monitoring purposes.

Senators Rónán Mullen and Sean D. Barrett have noted that most transactions are system driven and impersonal. It is difficult to regularly track one's bank balance because increasingly it is provided online and no longer sent to consumers in paper format. Most banks now charge a fee to send retrospective statements. It should, therefore, be within the gift of businesses to avail of regulations requiring the repayment of overpayments. Without wishing to stretch out this matter, we should bear in mind the number of times customers of businesses in the financial services sector have been found to be due refunds. The most recent case involved Allied Irish Banks which had to repay millions of euro to customers, including many who held accounts with other banks but were charged for using AIB's automatic teller machines, ATMs. It was only on foot of an investigation by the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank that the repayments averaging some €500 were made. The AIB case did not specifically involve overpayments as it related to overcharging for which refunds were due. If the legislation were to be implemented, many businesses, including larger businesses, would focus much more on ensuring their charging structures were correct and tighten procedures for collecting charges. As a result, cases such as that involving Allied Irish Banks would occur less often.

I accept it is difficult to quantify the extent of the problem, although I note the figures provided by Senator Rónán Mullen for the United States. The Minister has indicated his belief overpayment is not a major problem in this country. It would be worthwhile to ascertain the number of such cases, perhaps with the assistance of the Government.

I concur with the statement in the explanatory memorandum that the Bill would complement the successful dormant accounts legislation. It would also focus minds in business. I am cognisant, however, of the need to avoid imposing an onerous additional regulatory burden on the business sector. Perhaps the Government might allow the Bill to complete Second Stage in order that amendments could be made on Committee Stage. With the agreement of Senator Mullen, I would certainly look at areas like section 4 and perhaps even section 3 to take some of the duties away from the Department and to bring it in more as a regulatory code that would not require much more additional resources but would simply set down in law that people must return any overpayments within a given period.

This Bill is very worthwhile and if it was allowed to pass Second Stage and those relevant amendments were added to take into account some of the very valid concerns mentioned by the Minister in his speech, I think we could enact a good Bill which would protect the hard-pressed consumer while not putting an onerous burden on the business sector. While we will be supporting the Bill, I hope some mechanism could be worked out whereby it would pass Second Stage to allow amendments to be made and in order that we can frame important legislation that would not cause the Department or the business community any great difficulty but would protect the consumer.

I commend Senator Mullen on bringing this Bill before us. It is informative, thought provoking and an education for me when preparing to speak today, having listened to the Senator's contribution and that of the Minister. When I first read the explanatory memorandum of the Bill, I wondered whether it was necessary to introduce legislation to deal with such an issue and whether provisions were already in place. I have no doubt overpayments occur, some of which are in error. For those that are not returned — the subject of today's discussion — perhaps in some cases the recipients are not aware there has been an overpayment. There could be an error on both sides. Where does this Bill stand from that point of view? Many payments are made now through electronic means. Senator Mullen himself mentioned double invoicing and the fact the recipient of the moneys may not realise it at the time. Errors can occur in many ways.

I did a search and found a report about an individual who had overpaid when paying by electronic means. Instead of paying €14.95, he omitted the decimal point and paid €1,495. It took about six months of dealing with bureaucracy to get that money back. I have no doubt overpayments occur, but I would still question whether we need to deal with it through legislation. As the Minister said, there may be other means through accountancy standards or whatever. I know in some instances we may be dealing with a large organisation versus a sole trader, but sole traders must also have bookkeepers in place and prepare end of year accounts.

The figure of €25 was mentioned as a minimum in section 2 and that seems to be a very small amount. There is also a provision whereby the money must be returned within 21 days. A situation may arise where neither party is aware of the overpayment. I am sure Senator Mullen will respond to that. It may be only for those who are aware of the overpayment. However, 21 days seems like a short time, especially when dealing with many transactions. I do not see the demand for such a provision. I am a member of the jobs and enterprise committee and we see many business representative groups coming through, such as IBEC, the Small Firms Association and ISME. The Minister of State, Deputy Perry, has been in the House regularly talking about his small business forum. The issue of overpayment has not arisen in any of these meetings. I have no doubt it occurs, but it certainly is not a burning issue for these organisations. We could ask the opinion of the representatives of these organisations on whether they believe such an issue is important to them. If there is an overpayment, can it be resolved by means other than legislation? I do not wish to trivialise the overpayments issue. I am sure there are overpayments, but I do not know at what level they occur. Senator Mullen quoted examples from the US, but do they apply here? I am not sure.

I am also concerned about sections 3 and 4, whereby a person may request the Minister to investigate. The Minister is a very busy person, not that he would be doing it personally. It seems to be an onerous obligation to be placed on the Minister and on the system as a whole. The appointment of authorised officers to investigate complaints will be a cost to the Exchequer.

The Bill has been compared also to dormant accounts legislation. In his own contribution, the Minister stated that when the dormant accounts legislation was brought forward, there was knowledge it was needed. The returns from the dormant accounts fund of €630 million show there was an issue that needed to be addressed.

Do we need to introduce legislation to deal with this issue? I do not see the need for it. I am concerned at the level of red tape that would be introduced, because that is the major issue for any small business. There is already quite a level of legislative requirements with which businesses need to deal, and we certainly do not want to add to their burden. We want to free them up to ensure they can focus on the areas that are important in order to preserve the jobs they have and develop further jobs. I know I am repeating myself, but I would question the need for legislation at this stage.

I welcome the Minister to the House. I find Senator Mullen's Bill to be very interesting. He aimed at something for which he believes there is a need. I think there is a need for it. I would like to tell a story that happened in my company many years ago, as the Minister spoke about a supermarket and small trader a few minutes ago. There was a farmer supplying us with potatoes for a year — a very small supplier — and he charged us mistakenly for one bag when he was supplying four bags. Our accounts office drew my attention to it after about six months. This may have been 30 years ago, and there was a £10,000 discrepancy. My own credit man asked whether we really had to draw his attention to this, because it was costing us a lot of money to check these accounts, and since we check them to make sure we are not being overcharged, perhaps we should get the benefit if we are undercharged. However, there was no real discussion on it; he was just making a point. We asked the supplier to come in and he came in with his accountant. I must say that I was a little naughty because when the four of us sat at the table, I told him there had been a mistake in his invoicing for six months. His accountant, who obviously made a deal with him that he was not to open his mouth, claimed there was no mistake. This went on for around ten minutes until we drew his attention to the fact that we owed him £10,000, rather than the other way around. I gathered the accountant was no longer working for him the following day.

There is a need for some remedy, whether it is legislation such as Senator Mullen has proposed or whether there is, as the Minister said, some other way of doing it. The Bill highlights the area of business ethics. I am not sure how big a problem it is, as most businesses need to form close working relationships with their suppliers and they are mutually beneficial. Most companies with which I have worked have behaved in an ethical manner, but it is an area that needs to be highlighted none the less.

Let us say one finds a wallet in the street with €200 and the name and address of the owner. If one keeps it and makes no attempt to return it, that would be considered dishonest. It is dishonest. If one receives a duplicated payment of €200 from a client, one knows their name and address and if one keeps it and makes no attempt to return it, then it is surely as dishonest as the previous example. There is little doubt it is unethical and dishonest. One could ask whether there is a need for legislation. I think there is a need.

One could also ask whether we should look more explicitly at Government contracts. Will the legislation fully apply to Government and private sector business? Senator Mullen has spoken of how in the United States the rules governing the relationship are much more explicit. As the Minister has explained, in the United States the federal acquisition regulation, FAR, is limited to procurement contracts. I gather from what he said that it is to the government's benefit to do that. The regulation refers to: "Knowing failure by a principal, until 3 years after final payment on any Government contract awarded to the contractor, to timely disclose to the Government, in connection with the award, performance, or closeout of the contractor a subcontract thereunder, credible evidence of...significant overpayment(s) on the contract". The obligation to return overpayments as outlined in the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act 2009 applies to overpayments made in virtually any context, including under grants, core operative agreements and other federal acquisition rules-based agreements. Our procurement industry is massive. The all-island market is currently estimated at approximately €20 billion.

One could ask whether we should examine other issues such as Government-public relations and issues such as overpayments of social welfare. Overpayments rose from €50 million to €83 million between 2007 and 2010, including mistakes by recipients and administration. Should individuals be legally required to notify an overpayment by Government? The Department of Social Protection indicates that approximately 6% of overpayments made to welfare recipients are as a result of departmental error. I am not sure whether there is a legal obligation to inform of overpayment by the Government if one gave the correct details to the Department of Social Protection, but if not, should there be a legal obligation? I mention it because it gives rise to a problem of ethics, honesty and also cost to the State. Senator Mullen's proposal and legislation is worthy of much more consideration. I support what Senator Darragh O'Brien suggested, that we would pass the Bill on Second Stage and promise to investigate whether we could improve it on Committee Stage. I understand the Minister's concern about the difficulty small businesses have with the extent of legislative controls that exist, but the Bill is the right way to go. It is just a question of whether we could tamper with it to the extent of improving it.

The Minister is very welcome to the Chamber. Senator Mullen's Bill is a most interesting one to which I have given a great deal of consideration. In his opening remarks the Minister outlined the necessity to demonstrate that the new legal architecture is necessary. The Bill fails to do so in terms of necessity and also in terms of proportionality. The relationship between a supplier of goods and services and the purchaser of those is based on more than the regulatory and statutory frameworks; it is based at least as much on goodwill and trust as it is on the law. I listened carefully to Senator Mullen's contribution and while much of what he said was disturbing, it points more to unethical activity, especially fraudulent activity and particularly with false accounting and poor auditing.

The Bill identifies a problem and defines it as an overpayment by a purchaser of goods and services and the explanatory memorandum identifies the legal gap the Bill purports to fill. It speaks of the common law remedy and states that since most overpayments — this is key to our opposition to the Bill — are inadvertently made, it is often self-defeating to pursue a remedy in common law since the ability to bring a claim under common law in respect of unjust enrichment from moneys had and received requires knowledge of the overpayment in the first instance by the injured party.

According to Senator Mullen, the Bill fills an important regulatory gap by imposing a statutory duty to disclose overpayments. He might well be correct, but I do not believe the remedy proposed in the Bill adds value to the existing body of law in the area, namely, the aforementioned unjust enrichment for moneys had and received, in that it imposes a legal duty of disclosure while the actual disclosure remains dependent on the willingness of the party receiving the payment to disclose that such an act has taken place. The same remedy as that proposed by Senator Mullen exists in common law. The proposed Bill does not move in the direction of discouraging deliberate benefit from overpayment and it relies, as per the current arrangements, on the willingness of the beneficiary to disclose. Therefore, we will be unable to support the Bill. It is a worthy objective but it is flawed legislation. Senator Mullen has identified an issue and we commend him on doing so. However, his proposed remedy does not satisfactorily address the issue. Perhaps if he addresses the fundamental issue and reintroduces the Bill at a later date, we might be in a position to reconsider our current position.

I also draw Senator Mullen's attention to the fact that perhaps in his deliberations he might also consider deliberate underpayments in the event of such a legislative proposal coming before us again. We are unable to support the Bill. I am certain that, as the Minister has outlined, other avenues under other legislative and regulatory frameworks are available to address the issue.

I will try to not take too long. Like Fianna Fáil, we in Sinn Féin will support the Bill. If it proceeds to Committee State, we will commit to amending it and making it as good and as strong as we possibly can. As has been indicated, there is no obligation currently requiring someone who has accidentally been overpaid to disclose or return the overpayment. We need a uniform system of some kind to protect the rights of parties who make overpayments. We agree the complexity of modern business transactions and the multiplicity of those transactions which can take place in short periods can create difficulties for businesses in terms of accounting, especially small businesses.

Reference has been made by other Senators to the Dormant Accounts Acts 2001 to 2005 which govern the position of unclaimed balances in certain financial institutions. They mentioned there is no legislation directing or governing the treatment of trade overpayments, although there are a number of relevant provisions in the Companies Acts 1963 to 2009. The Bill recognises there is a disparity between the approach taken by, for example, financial institutions and that taken by other sectors on the treatment of overpaid balances. The lack of uniformity in how overpayments are treated in different businesses means in some cases there is a diligent practice, as Senator Quinn mentioned, of notifying customers of overpayments and immediately agreeing a disposal, while in other instances there can be indifference to the erroneous receipts or the payee may seek to reclassify such receipts. It is difficult for a company, having realised its mistake, to reclaim its money by way of restitution, which the explanatory memorandum notes could be unduly onerous on some businesses. Likewise, it could be very difficult for a business which made the overpayment to reclaim the sum if the payee company has gone into liquidation or receivership. The legislation should take account of errors on the part of a company which has received an overpayment. The multiplicity of trade payment transactions daily and the often impersonal and systems-driven nature of payments creates ready possibility for overpayment. This is as true of the party receiving the overpayment as of the party marking it. We must ensure, if the Bill proceeds to Committee Stage, that this is clearly set out, especially in section 7.

We are strongly supportive of section 5(2) and 5(3) which provide for sanctions for those who fraudulently conceal the existence or extent of an overpayment or other credit, or issue any statement of account or document purporting to be a statement of account which omits details of any overpayment or other credit. Such behaviour not only defrauds the person who has made the overpayment but could also create a false impression of the company's accounts, as overpayments may be declared as assets or used to offset liabilities.

My main concern in regard to the Bill is how it can be implemented, particularly in terms of ascertaining what will constitute a genuine mistake as opposed to fraud on the part of the recipient of an overpayment. I would welcome any clarification from Senator Mullen on how this question might be interpreted by the courts. In summary, notwithstanding the concerns I have indicated, we are of the view that any faults in the legislation can be resolved on a cross-party basis on Committee Stage. As such, we urge the Government not to block its passage.

I thank the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, for his comments on this proposal and welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, who has just come into the House. I also thank Senators Sean Barrett, Darragh O'Brien, Deirdre Clune, Feargal Quinn, John Gilroy and Kathryn Reilly for their contributions.

There are two core aspects to this Bill. First is the criminal offence aspect whereby a particular onus is placed on businesses receiving overpayments to take certain steps. The second aspect is the ability of or requirement on the Minister to put in place a mechanism to allow a person formally to make a complaint and for that complaint to be investigated. I am disappointed by the evidence in the Minister's response to the proposal of lazy thinking by the Department. My first difficulty in bringing forward the Bill was in establishing whether it came under the remit of the Department of Justice and Equality or the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. There was a sense that each was trying to palm it off on the other. It is hardly surprising, in that context, that the Minister should complain that he has had limited time to study the Bill, but that is not my fault.

I am especially disappointed the Minister does not seem to be interested in exploring whether there is a problem in this area. There is an obvious way of identifying whether money is left lying in bank accounts, as we saw in the bringing forward of the dormant accounts legislation. I accept it is not so easy to identify where what is referred to in this Bill is happening. Logic would surely dictate, however, that if the Minister is not convinced there is a great problem, he can hardly argue the measures I propose will impose an onerous requirement on businesses or on his Department. He cannot have it both ways.

We are dealing here with the mentality of light touch regulation. It is all very well for the Minister to talk about better regulation and avoiding a harsh regulatory regime, but what we are really talking about is a laissez-faire approach and a lack of sympathy with those who might lose out as a result of making an overpayment. The Minister failed to acknowledge that when it comes to doing business, it is those who charge out for services who have the primary responsibility to reconcile payments received with services or goods given. As Senator Gilroy observed, it hardly seems likely that an underpayment would ever be a relevant issue. A person will not disclose that he or she has deliberately made an underpayment. In any case, where an underpayment is made, it will appear in the next statement. There has been no response to the provisions in this legislation which seek to criminalise that which should manifestly be criminalised, namely, any misstatement or omission in respect of an overpayment, something which does, unfortunately, happen in business.

The Minister did not respond either to the expert evidence on which this Bill relies. The Irish Institute of Credit Management might not have existed for all his response had to say about its concerns. Once again, I must conclude there is a degree of lazy thinking within the Department and a type of cavalier, hands-off attitude to good ethics in business, which is partly what has led our country into its recent difficulties. There is a certain lack of interest in any problem that is not already hitting us over the head.

Senators O'Brien, Reilly and others asked that I consider certain amendments, which I will be willing to do. In response to Senator Clune, I initially intended to provide for a 20-day period within which a receiving entity must inform a payer of an overpayment. However, I opted instead for 60 days in recognition of the day-to-day reality of what goes on in businesses. I thank the Senator for raising this point. She was right to do so because when I initially advised people of what would be contained in the Bill, a 20-day timeframe was what I envisaged. Several speakers suggested the minimum threshold of €25 should be reconsidered.

I am not sure whether the Minister makes a relevant comparison in pointing to federal legislation in the United States. I accept his point in regard to the particular issue of procurement by the State and overpayments arising from that. Apart from the fact the State should be interested in recouping any moneys lost through overpayment, it is consistent with good business practice and facilitating of ethical practice that any party that makes an overpayment should be in a position to recoup the moneys. It could be a potential source of funds for the State, as in the case of dormant accounts. That alone should have led to a more constructive, intellectually curious and inquiring approach from the Department as to what is proposed. It is almost as if it wants to deny there is a problem and would prefer if people would not come forward with evidence of such. That is a very regrettable attitude in our current straitened circumstances.

The Minister questioned whether the provisions could be applicable to the State because an overpayment is defined as a payment received by an undertaking or by a person in the course of a trade. The definition of "person" in the legislation includes a body corporate. I would have been open to an amendment seeking to ensure public bodies involved in procurement and which make overpayments are covered. That was certainly my intent. Again, I am surprised this issue has been put up as a major objection by the Minister when it could be more properly the source of a constructive amendment proposal.

I regret what can only be described as the non-engagement of the Department with these proposals. That is not good enough given the issues at stake and the broader question of business ethics. Given the potential for money savings to the State, the Minister should at the very least have undertaken to investigate the proposals further. I wonder about the negligent attitude that underlies his deficient response. Again, I thank everybody, including the Minister, who took the time to respond, particularly those who offered amendment suggestions. Unfortunately, the Bill seems unlikely to proceed to Committee Stage, but I certainly will be putting it to a vote.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 15; Níl, 24.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O’Neill, Pat.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Sean D. Barrett and Rónán Mullen; Níl, Senators Ivana Bacik and Paul Coghlan.
Question declared lost.

When is it proposed to sit again?

Ag 10.30 maidin amárach.

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