I welcome the Minister for Social Protection to the House.
Social Welfare and Pensions (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed)
Section 11 agreed to.
SECTION 12
Question proposed: "That section 12 stand part of the Bill."
We regard this section as being all about sanction and stick with no carrot whatsoever. Unfortunately we have seen far too many people in the State lose their jobs in the past five years. The majority of those people were happy to be in work and are devastated when they lose their jobs. They want to get back into employment as quickly as possible, but the problem is not enough jobs are available which is why many young people are forced to emigrate and those who do not emigrate end up on the live register.
A person, who loses his or her job in June and wants to do a course or take part in an educational programme that does not start until September or even October, will end up for a period of time on social welfare. As sections 12 to 15, inclusive, are very similar, I do not intend to come back on any of the other sections. The Independent Senators have tabled specific amendments, which are similar in effect to what I want to discuss, and I will support them.
I have a problem with the words "just cause" in this section. I do not like the fact that we are not being prescriptive in this area and are giving far too much flexibility and powers of discretion to the deciding officers to decide what is just cause. We should be much more prescriptive about what we mean by "just cause" because far too often I have seen deciding officers and others make decisions based on their perceived wisdom. Even in the case of guidelines presented by the Department on a range of issues, they give their view or their interpretation of them. They have huge powers of discretion but they do not always make the right decision. Sometimes they do but sometimes they do not. Where possible, we should be as prescriptive as possible in an area as sensitive as this one where there will be sanction for somebody who does not take up a course. They may have a just cause for not doing so but the interpretation of the deciding officer might be something else. When our amendments tabled in the Dáil were ruled out of order, we tabled amendments to oppose the section to again make the argument that we would prefer the Minister and the Government to set out in clear terms and simple language a set of guidelines that can be given to deciding officers on what constitutes just cause in this area. That would be far more beneficial and fairer to the people who find themselves in a position where they may be sanctioned unfairly.
I do not know if it has escaped Senator Cullinane's attention but people at work pay tax and PRSI so that we can have a remarkably decent social welfare service in this country, notwithstanding the knocks and the shocks the economy has suffered through the actions of the banks and the collapse of the construction industry. It is important, as Minister for Social Protection, that I balance my responsibility to people who have, unfortunately, lost their jobs, and we lost 350,000 jobs in the three years after the banks' collapse - we literally fell off a cliff in terms of employment - with my responsibilities to the people paying for the system, that is, the people in work paying their tax and PRSI.
The section states clearly that if someone is made a reasonable offer regarding education, training or getting back to work, they have an obligation in that regard. In effect, they have a contract with their fellow citizens who are funding the system to engage. This is about failure to engage with the social welfare system.
Could I interrupt the Minister to deal with a matter?
Yes.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.