Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 24 October 2023
50. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Minister for Social Protection if she will withdraw the proposals in the Green Paper on disability reform and implement instead a single-tier, non-means-tested disability allowance payment of €350 per week. [46723/23]
View answerThe Minister says the proposal in the Green Paper for a three-tier system of disability payments has nothing to do with the UK system. Is it not, however, founded on essentially the same idea as the work capability assessment in Britain, which is a test of capacity to work and then the establishment of tiers? Why should we believe a Government led by a Taoiseach who, when he was in the Minister's position, ran a campaign on a completely false basis claiming that "welfare cheats cheat us all"?
Census 2022 data indicates that there are 1.1 million people with at least one long-lasting condition. While I would love to be in a position where I had unlimited resources, providing a weekly payment of €350 to such a large number of people would not be sustainable. Even if I could, such an approach would also be unfair because people with disabilities are not one single group with identical challenges and needs. Disability exists across a spectrum and also affects people from all walks of life and backgrounds. That is one of the reasons we have a system of means tests and occupational assessments. They help to target resources to where they are needed most.
I acknowledge that the current system is outdated and overdue a change. It has been in place for decades and throughout that time we know that people with disabilities have faced higher rates of unemployment and poverty. That is why I want to generate ideas and discussion on how we can change the system so that we can increase the payments and improve employment outcomes.
The Green Paper is a starting point for discussion on the future of long-term disability payments. It sets out the issues faced by people with disabilities and proposes one way in which the existing system of incomes support might be changed. It does this to help move the debate on from what does not work to what might work.
I want to emphasise again that nobody will have their payment reduced nor will anybody lose their entitlement to a disability payment. In fact, in the approach set out, we want to help focus the discussion where many people would see their payment increase by more than €45 per week.
I would also like to emphasise that the system is not based on the UK model. The approach taken in the UK was designed to reduce the number of people in receipt of a disability payment and to reduce costs. This is not the case here and it is certainly not my intention. As I have said, if the approach set out in the Green Paper was to be implemented, many people would see their payments increase. I am glad to have the opportunity to set the record straight this evening.
The UK system is based on a work capability assessment. That is essentially what the system in the Minister's Green Paper is based on. Three tiers flow from that. The Minister said that nobody will have their payments cut but is it not the case that if she implements the proposal outlined in the Green Paper, people could have their payments cut? Those are found to be capable of working could be dropped a tier if they do not then work. Is that not the case? Clearly, someone could be moved from tier to tier based upon whether he or she takes up or is able to take up employment.
Second, I ask the Minister the question that I asked the Taoiseach. Has she seen the film by "I, Daniel Blake", which she should watch-----
I will watch it.
-----because it is precisely about the horrendous impact of what I believe is a similar system operating in Britain?
This is a Green Paper and it is for consultation and discussion. We usually have strawman proposals but we actually spoke to some of the groups and they said that they wanted to call it a Green Paper. The Deputy knows what is done with a strawman. Bits are taken out and put in, everything is moved about and we come up with a different man when we are finished. That is what this is about. It is about hearing the views of the stakeholders. These are the people with whom we talk, their representative groups and the disability organisations.
We also have to be honest. Ireland is below the EU average for employment rates for people with disabilities. I have worked to enhance the supports we have in my Department, whether that is the EmployAbility services, the reasonable accommodation fund, the WorkAbility programme or the wage subsidy scheme for people with disabilities but we need to do more to work with people and make them aware of the supports. This is about helping people who want to work; this is not about making anybody do anything that they do not want to do, or are not comfortable with. We will not force anything on anybody and, as I said, nobody will be moved off a disability payment or have their current payment reduced.
If the Minister establishes a tiered system based on capacity to work, that will be fine. When it is introduced, she can have the bottom tier, which comprises the most supposedly capable of working, equivalent to the current rates of payment. There is nothing to stop a Minister in a future Government, or another Government, from dropping that because the current Minister has established the principle that we do not just accept that people are not able to work, they are disabled, have an entitlement to a payment and the State should support them. Instead, however, we are discriminating among them based on some company or State agency deciding how much capacity that they have to work. We may start out with the bottom payment equivalent to the current payment but there is nothing there to retain that in the future. It is, potentially, divide and rule of people on disability payments.
Those on disability payments are very scared of this. One woman who contacted me said that the assessment process was dehumanising and soul-destroying, particularly the idea of proving that a person and their children are "disabled enough" to get the support needed. I do not understand that as, if the Minister says that she wants to increase the payment, let us just recognise the enormous cost of disability and increase payments across the board.
The background to the Green Paper is the The Cost of Disability in Ireland report, which was produced after extensive consultation. It was probably the biggest consultation on any report carried out by the State. We extended it a few times because people wanted more consultation. It is recommended that the levels of payment and allowances should be changed to reflect the very different costs associated with the severity and the type of disability. As the Deputy will understand, people on disability payments range across a wide spectrum of capabilities from those who have very profound physical and intellectual disabilities and who face significant extra costs to those who have less restrictive conditions. The current system of payments does not reflect this; instead, it takes a one-size-fits-all approach. That is why the The Cost of Disability in Ireland report proposed that while we should recognise and acknowledge all forms of disability, we should also differentiate our payments and target any extra resources at those people who need it.
