Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 May 1923

Vol. 3 No. 19

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE—ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - POTATO-GROWERS OF NORTH LOUTH.

Mr. D.J. GOREY

I move:

"That in the opinion of the Dáil it is the duty of the Government to make provision for compensating the potato-growers of North Louth for the loss of their crops, which have been rendered unsaleable by the scheduling of the district covered under the Black Scab in Potatoes (Special Area, Ireland) Order, 1923, issued by the Department of Agriculture, dated 14th February, 1923.

This matter was dealt with in April last, and a good case was put up by Deputy Hughes and other members who spoke. I was not present at the time. A good deal has been said, and everything that was said has been said well, but I think due consideration was not given to the position. I was brought out to this district, and brought over it, and saw an extraordinary and very unfortunate position. I think if the authorities have not an order that this could come under, it is our duty to make an Order whereby it will be treated. We have the Diseases of Animals Act, which brings in Foot and Mouth Disease, Tuberculosis, Swine Fever, and several other things have been brought in where cattle have been destroyed in the interests of the State. You have here an area with about eight thousand tons of potatoes, any single one of which would be able to bring Black Scab out of a district. A few months ago there was 12,000, pow it has come down, and while those potatoes are there it is a festering sore. Naturally, they will not keep them there; everyone knows there is a leakage. As a matter of fact. they have leaked into this district from Down, one of the Northern Counties. While they are there it is a source of danger not only to Louth but to all the other counties of Ireland. As men of the world we know that while men have a crop, and want the means of subsistence they will fight to get it, and will sell those potatoes, and they are selling them. I contend it ought to come under the same heading as the Diseases of Animals Act, or any other Act put in force for the safety of the whole community, and an immediate order ought to be issued to bring it under that head. Apart altogether from that I have been through this district, and have seen the people, and I know the difference between drones and workers. If I ever saw workers in my life they are those people. They are certainly a desirable element in the community. They have been working under difficulties, and the difficulty will be appreciated more when I say that that particular district is only fit for two crops — potatoes and barley It is fit for nothing else. It is not land which can be set to everything. It is not suited even for oat growing or wheat growing. These people are human. They have no other means of existence or subsistence, and they are trying to get a market for their stuff, and the disease is coming out. This contamination will spread, and the area affected this year will be larger next year. Assistance has been found for every other class of the community, and, I have no hesitation in saying, for people not half as deserving as those people. This is not a dole. They have too much pride to ask this as a dole.

An Ceann Comhairle resumed the chair at this stage.

Mr. GOREY

I have seen 150 tons of potatoes there with one man, 100 with another, 50 with another, and so on. Nothing can be done with them. It may be said that these people engaged in a commercial transaction and failed, but it is not a question of a commercial transaction at all, as far as we are concerned; it is a question of the safety of the rest of the country. These people have nothing at the moment. They paid for manuring the crop last year, and they did not realise anything. They are in debt, and they have put in a crop this year without any manure. If they do not get manure to utilise on the crop within the next month or six weeks they cannot use it at all, with the result that perhaps there will only be one-fifth of a crop or no crop at all. Not alone do they not want a dole, but they are prepared to offer to the Government or to anyone else the whole crop at £1 per ton. That is all we are asking for them. I hope I am not going to get the answer that nothing can be done. I know that the Ministry and that every Deputy in the Dáil has as much sympathy with these people as Deputy Hughes and I have, and that it is only a question of finding the best means of dealing with the matter. I have seen a 20 per cent. preference given to other classes of Irish industry, and I do not know whether there is precedent for that. In this case we have an Irish industry and Irish people. Surely we are not going to be told that there is no precedent for this or no Order under which it can be done? Is there an Order under which preference can be given to Irish goods?

Perhaps I ought to be more concerned with the welfare of the whole country than with that of a particular district, but while this huge crop is there it seems to me that it would be like shutting up a plague or a disease in a house without removing the cause, if we were to leave that crop lying there. You cannot do that, because you know it will spread. You cannot confine Black Scab in this area while that quantity of potatoes is lying there. I think it would be a kindness to the rest of the country to meet this difficulty in some way, as it would prevent the extension of black scab to a larger area. As a matter of fact, I do not think the people would thank you at all unless you do your very best to prevent the spread of this disease. It is the duty of the Government, to my mind, to protect the rest of the country, and I think that the danger to the rest of the country is one of grave moment, and that there is the strongest reason why this crop ought to be destroyed if it cannot be taken out of the country, and that the people should be compensated. I believe the market in England has broken down, and that the potatoes would not make the cost of packing or transit. I suggest that if the Government are not prepared to take over the crop and market the potatoes or make some use of them, that they should destroy the crop and compensate the owners. These people are one of the finest people I have ever been amongst; one of the most industrious people and the last people in the world to ask anything of anybody, and I think that we, as a young nation, would be behaving very badly if we allowed ourselves to be prevented by technical barriers. It is our duty to remove the barriers and to provide a new Order if necessary, and I ask the Minister for Agriculture to consider this and meet the case in some humane way. I am sure he will try to do that, as I have full confidence in the Minister.

Mr. P. HUGHES

I beg to second the motion. I cannot say very much beyond what I said before when the matter was discussed on the 13th April. I put the case to the Government and the Dáil as best I could, and I laid the bare facts before them. At that time the Minister for Agriculture could not see his way to give any monetary assistance to those people. Everything that Deputy Gorey has said on the matter is true, and I am delighted that he has such a good opinion of my constituents. The only thing is that I hope he has not an eye on them. I would be inclined to think from some remarks he passed that he was casting an eye that way. If he is, I can assure him that these people whom he describes as hardy workers, and such decent and respectable people — which I know they are — will not be caught with chaff from Deputy Gorey.

Mr. GOREY

It is not a case of chaff at all.

Mr. HUGHES

The Deputy has described the case very fully, and, as far as I am concerned, I give it my whole-hearted support. I am sure that in doing that I will be voicing the opinion of every Deputy in the Dáil who wishes to see everybody, not alone in that area, but in the whole country, flourishing and to see that particular industry in a flourishing condition. If the Deputy can suggest any means that have not been suggested before, so much the better. But the case he has made at the moment is the best case he can make, I believe, but it has been made before. If the Deputy on that occasion had remained in the Dáil and lent his voice to the case that was then made, perhaps a different complexion would have been put on it than was put on it by the Minister at the time. Perhaps he was called away owing to some unavoidable cause, but it certainly looked strange that the Deputy left the Dáil immediately the adjournment was moved on that occasion. That may be a personal matter, but as far as the actual state of affairs in that area is concerned it is very bad indeed. I have made inquiries very recently on the subject and I am prepared to verify the statement that the actual sum per ton that is being paid at the moment to the grower of potatoes is ten shillings. It is impossible even to get them away at that price. I have gone over his ground before, and I do not believe in saying the same thing twice. I therefore content myself with seconding the motion.

Mr. FITZGIBBON

I am not, as everyone knows, a farmer, and I am not a present nor a prospective representa tive for the County Louth, but it is a very curious thing that outside my own native county, and part of Co. Limerick, there is no corner of Ireland I know so well as the Barony of Lower Dundalk. In that barony I think I have walked over almost every acre of the two parishes of Carlingford and Cooley, where these potatoes are grown. I have been down there nearly every year for twenty years, and I have never seen people like them to make two blades of grass grow where one grew before, and to get a potato crop out of what looks to be a most unfruitful soil. I do not think this is a case for subsidising people, or for doles, or anything of that sort, but when it was discussed by the Dáil some time ago, it appeared to me these farmers were asking for a profit on a crop that they would have got, if the bottom had not fallen out of the market. I did not think that was a fair request, but I do think that the safety of the country which depends to a very great extent on the potato crop is now involved in the matter. As long as these people had any market elsewhere for their potatoes I think they were bound to go there. It seems to be admitted now that they cannot get these potatoes out of the country, as the price they would get in France or England or other places would not pay the cost of carriage, and so you are keeping in the country, because you cannot get it out of it, what Deputy Gorey said may make it a regular plague spot. Smuggling has been going on in the county, as one reads occasionally of prosecutions of people for breaches of this Order that was made, prohibiting the export of these potatoes from this country. The whole barony has a sea coast, and there is very little to prevent potatoes getting away by sea from the Barony of Lower Dundalk finding their way to other parts of Ireland, and spreading this plague through the whole country. I think there is ground for suspicion that the plague came across Carlingford Lough from the potato-growing district of Kilteel. If these people have this crop in the pits it will find its way out, if the owners can get any money for it, in spite of any precautions you can take. I heard the Minister tell us on the last occasion that very little was known about this disease, except that it was a very virulent and a very infectious one. Therefore, it seems to me, in the interests of the State, that this crop should be seized and destroyed, and that people whose crop is seized should be compensated by getting the market value of the crop as it is to-day. That is the law in almost every other case where private property is seized for the public good. Deputy Gorey mentioned pleuro-pneumonia in live-stock, where the compensation must be according to an assessment of whatever may be the market value. There is the Cattle Plague Order and the Swine Fever Order, and in these cases where live stock is destroyed, compensation must be paid.

There is another case with which we are more familiar. Under the Public Health Acts if I have infectious disease in my house the Corporation can come in and seize bedding and other materials which are liable to lead to a spread of the infection, but they must pay reasonable compensation for the property that is destroyed. With a large crop like this in the interests of the country it should not be given a chance of getting away. My impression is that the Minister for Agriculture would not find it impossible to dig out some authority that would enable him to seize and confiscate this crop. If there is any such authority in my humble judgment, it ought to be exercised in the interests of the country. It is only reasonable that people whose crop is destroyed should receive fair compensation, not a profit, but whatever they could get if there was an open market. It appears that the total compensation for the amount of potatoes in this district would not probably be very large, and if something is not done to destroy this infectious crop it may cost the country very much more to put it down elsewhere next year, or the year after.

Professor MAGENNIS

When this question was raised by Deputy Hughes, recently, the case was made by the Minister for Agriculture that these people had been warned, and warned more than once, of the danger of persisting in growing the potato crop in the same place year after year, notwithstanding that the infection has displayed itself. Now, as the case was presented by Deputy Hughes, it appeared to me most convincing that the situation was exactly parallel with that in the case of the slaughter of cattle for the saving of the stock in the rest of the country, and that notwithstanding the case made by the Minister for Agriculture that these people were offenders. The reason I was not at all convinced by the case made by the Minister for Agriculture on that occasion, is that we cannot overlook that the Department of Agriculture served to these people — or, at any rate, was instrumental in procuring for them — seeds of potatoes which were declared by experts to be immune from Black Scab, and there are, I understood from Deputy Hughes, stocks of potatoes of that particular type. I know of three, our old friend the old champion, and there is the Irish Queen and another potato of Scotch ancestry, which are notoriously immune from this disease. But the difficulty is that the spores which come from the disease, and which are capable of multiplying rapidly, can be disseminated through the country if any portion of the soil attaching to the tuber finds its way elsewhere and, just as in the case of the dissemination of Foot and Mouth Disease by birds and by the boots of men walking across the fields, in the same way these spores can be carried, and the difficulty is then a very serious practical difficulty. These people have put in immune potato crops and have grown them and now, because of their being in an infected area, and as the market in England is not forthcoming, they have stocks of potatoes which are quite healthy but at the same time are suspect, and it is desirable that they should not be circulated in other parts of the country.

It is in the recollection of Deputies that Deputy Doyle proposed that a subsidy by way of loan, should be given to these people to invest in pigs to use up the supplies, and it struck a great many of us at the time that that was a very practical suggestion. But the trouble was that the Minister for Agriculture had no power to do that. It seems to me, therefore, an easier plan than merely to seize the crops and destroy them, to pass rapidly a One Section Act that would enable the Minister for Agriculture to come to the rescue. It seems, so far as as my knowledge of Black Scab goes, that infected potatoes do not need to be destroyed. They undergo a natural destruction themselves. It is really suspect tubers that would require destruction, and we are dealing now with supplies of potatoes, as I pointed out, which are quite healthy and are not affected by the disease, and are merely possible disease carriers because of extraneous circumstances. Now, it does seem to a looker-on, as I am, with regard to agricultural matters merely a looker-on, that this, being a section of the greatest industry in the country, for whose welfare we are all most vitally concerned, a small expenditure of money in an emergency like this would be well invested. One remedy that might be taken and has not been attempted yet, which, of course, naturally occurs to me as a Professor, is to endow, or rather offer, some large prize for research work. That has been done in Continental countries with regard to various scourges and plagues that have affected the agricultural industry, and I have no doubt, if it were made worth while, that scientific research would be prosecuted persistently into this and what to do with the infected soil would be discovered. There is in law a remedy for every complaint, and science has shown it is able almost to rival law in providing remedies for every evil. This is a case on which the Agricultural or rather the Technical Education Department, could usefully expend some of its funds, and it is a point in which Universities, with their Chairs of Agriculture, their Agricultural Departments, could come to the relief of the Nation if it were made worth their while.

CATHAL O SEANAIN

Ba mhaith liom a iarraidh ar an Dáil cuidiú le Teachta O Guaire. Táimíd go léir ar aon intinn ar an gceist seo — na lucht oibre, na feirmeoirí, Cuman-na-nGaedheal agus Sinn Féin. Anois is ceart do'n Rialtas géilleadh dhúinn an babhta so. Nil aon dabht ná go bhfuil na prátaí ana-dhona ar fad mar adubhairt Teachta cupla seachtain ó shoin. Sé mo thuairim gur fiú do'n Rialtas an t-airgead so, do thabhairt uatha. Beidir go mbeadh sé nios fearr na prátaí a cheannoch, no' aon rud eile is fearr do dheanamh leo, ach béidh sé ar mhaitheas leis an tír go ndeanfaí rud éigin agus go mbeadh deire leis an sgéal ar feadh tamaill.

Ar an abhar san iarraim ar an Aire agus ar chamradaithe an Aire comhnamh do thabhairt do's na daoine seo. Tá siad i gcrua-chás. Ta siad idir na Sé Condaethe agus an Saorstát. Ta na searnnósa agus an t-seana-chaint acu, agus ar an abhar san iarraim ar an Dáil cabhair do thabhairt don Gheadheal san rud so.

There is no necessity to labour this point. It was laboured extensively on the last occasion, and it has been added to this evening and we have, I think, pretty representative evidence that it is the general feeling of all sections in the Dáil that something should, be done for this community. It may be argued that the money cannot be found, but it could be found. It is only a matter of a few thousand pounds, and it would really be in the nature of an insurance against great harm to the whole argricultural industry. It is really a matter of ensuring that the disease will not be allowed to spread throughout the Free State, and possibly mean ruin to a considerable extent of future potato crops. It ought not to be beyond the ingenuity of the Ministry to find a way out with dignity to itself, and with advantage to these people. As other Deputies have said, they are not exactly begging, they are not wanting what is commonly called "charity," but if it is a good and useful thing in the national polity that other diseases should be treated drastically in order that they may not do very extensive harm, then this should be dealt with in the same way. A Deputy on the last occasion very pertinently pointed out that the powers that now exist for the purchase of seeds were originally acquired because of certain distress in the West, and these powers were given in order that that distress might be relieved. This is not exactly a parallel case, but it is a somewhat similar case, and it should be possible for the Dáil and the Ministry to meet the case. I believe that if they gave it further consideration and made a fair attempt to meet the people concerned, that a satisfactory arrangement could be made. I ask the Dáil to vote for Deputy Gorey's motion. He will not put many motions before the Dáil which either I or my colleagues will ask the Dáil to vote for, but I certainly do ask the Dáil to vote for this, and I would ask the Ministry to accept it.

Mr. HOGAN

I am as anxious as any Deputy, naturally, I think, to do something, if possible, in a case like this, but I would impress on the Dáil the necessity of not being rushed into anything, or not coming to a conclusion without being sure of all the data. It is not usual, as Deputy O'Shannon pointed out, to have a Resolution backed by himself and Deputy Gorey and Deputy FitzGibbon. Absit omen! Really the subject is not as important as such an omnious combination as that would lead one to believe. There is a lot more cry than wool about this. I am quite prepared to admit that the people in Cooley and Dulargy are suffering, and suffering perhaps seriously, but their case is not nearly so bad as it has been stated.

Mr. GOREY

It is worse.

Mr. HOGAN

Let us get at the facts. Now, first, this is not the only area in the Free State scheduled. We first scheduled an area in 1917; there is not a word about it, and it is scheduled to-day. You know the old principle, "If you only have a goat to sell, have him in the middle of the fair," is a good one. We hear a lot about Cooley and Dulargy, but we have other districts scheduled, and there is not a word about them.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

What is the land like?

Mr. HOGAN

Much the same. In 1921 we had a conference in Dundalk. It was after the Black Scab this disease showed itself in the other district higher up. By agreement with the people in Cooley and Dulargy, and with the merchants in Dundalk, who used to handle their potatoes, we scheduled Cooley and Dulargy for the year 1921-22, from March to March, and we arranged that we would give the assistance of the Department towards selling these potatoes in England. They had always sold their potatoes in England and they never had an Irish market.

Before the area was scheduled they practically always sold their potatoes in England, but, on account of the scheduling we arranged that we would supervise the store-dressing, and generally give the assistance of the Department's officials in the shipping and handling of potatoes up there. This was before Black Scab broke out. It was in 1921 that the conference took place with the growers from the district, and the merchants in Dundalk. In 1922 Black Scab appeared, and there was another conference. It was agreed that we would schedule the area again, and for 1921 and 1922—I mean by that the spring of 1922 to the spring of 1923 — the people there understood clearly, and agreed that their potatoes were only to be sold in England, and they could not sell in Ireland. There is no question about it, they understood perfectly well for two years what the chances of their business speculations were. As I have said, they never sold potatoes to any extent in Ireland, and if at this moment — I could hardly say at this moment, because already 53 per cent. of the potatoes are sold — or three months ago, we allowed the potatoes into Dundalk, there would be no better price given in Dundalk than in Cardiff. The prices would not be as good. That is the fact.

The people there clearly understood when they were growing potatoes in 1921-22 that they could only sell them in England. From past experience they understood they had no other market. It came as no surprise to them. The fact of our scheduling the area made no great difference. It merely meant that we were helping them to handle the potatoes. Deputy FitzGibbon pointed out that if as a result of State interference you destroy a man's business or property you are bound, or at least it is usual, to compensate him at the market value of the potatoes at the time. I am willing to meet him on that point. We are not interfering with anybody. A very large amount of potatoes go out of the district. The potatoes are of a special variety, the Lockhart variety; they are not bought much in Dublin, and are bought only in a few places in Ireland. They are bought largely in Cardiff. If we allowed the potatoes on any large scale into Dundalk, the only market for them, the price would be no better. We are allowing them to Cardiff, or anywhere else in England, and, as far as the Department's interference is concerned, it has not cost them two pence. That is an absolutely fair statement of the case. Perhaps from the point of view of a Minister for Agriculture it would be a nice thing to get money and dole it out to those people in Cooley and Lordship, and any other of the affected townlands. Let us be clear, if we are giving our money, what is it given for? We are not giving it because we interfered with their market, or because we put them to any loss. They have the market they always had, and it does not matter two pence to them whether or not we let the potatoes out. There is no demand for Lockharts, and if we are giving them compensation, it is because they entered into a speculation with their eyes open, and it did not come off.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

What else could they have done?

Mr. HOGAN

I will come to that. We have done something. Deputy Hughes has been practically living with me for the last three weeks in regard to this question, and as a result of his representations, we sent an official of the Department to Cardiff, and he has arranged with the Cardiff merchants that very large quantities of the potatoes will be taken there. My information is not that potatoes are being sold at 10s. a ton, but that there is a profit of 10s. a ton. I know that is not big, but it is as good a profit as anybody who has grown potatoes anywhere else is getting. We have got very large quantities of the potatoes away, and the figures are something as follows:—Exports of potatoes from Belfast this year are only 20 per cent. of the exports of last year. Exports of potatoes from Dundalk this year represent 53 per cent. of last year's exports, and practically all those potatoes came from the scheduled area. In view of those figures, how could the State step in and make a special case? Take Belfast port, where there is nothing to stop potatoes of all kinds going through. They exported 20 per cent. of last year's exports. The fall is due to the fact that there is not as good a market as last year.

Mr. JOHNSON

Can the Minister tell us the relative prices for potatoes in Belfast and in the Cooley area?

Mr. HOGAN

The potatoes were not sold in Belfast; they were sold in England, and they included all sorts. I give those figures just to show that the real reason is not Black Scab, but the fact that the market has collapsed in England and that is what is responsible for the low prices.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would not the price of potatoes in Belfast have some bearing upon the case made?

Mr. HOGAN

I do not see that it would have any bearing upon the case. I am taking the Belfast Port. Potatoes are exported from Belfast port, and this year only 20 per cent has been sent from Belfast port of their usual potato export. Dundalk — practically all the potatoes come from the districts of Cooley and Lordship—has sent through 53 per cent. of its usual export. Now, it does not matter about the price, but it shows that in that matter they have done as well and a little better than some people who have not been scheduled.

Mr. GOREY

Those potatoes have not come through Dundalk.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We have to allow the Minister to make his case, and I will allow any reasonable question to the Minister afterwards.

Mr. HOGAN

I will get the exact figures. The figures for the last three months of the export of potatoes from this district have been 53 per cent. of last year. Is that clear? For the same period the export of potatoes from Belfast is only 20 per cent. of last year's. If these figures show anything they show that Belfast is not as well off in this matter. I may say that the potato centre of Belfast would deal with potatoes that would come through the market there in the ordinary way. If these figures show anything they simply show that the market for potatoes generally is not as good as it was last year; and they show that the market for potatoes from this district is a little better as the result of the arrangements we have made than the markets for other districts where no special arrangements have been made. That is clear in this case. It is also clear that if you are to give these people anything you are giving it not because the State has interfered with them, but be cause their trade was unprofitable for the year. There may be reasons of expediency why you are going to give them something, but it is not for the same reason as you pay for cattle slaughtered under the Diseases of Animals Act or any other animals slaughtered under that Act. It was pointed out that if these potatoes were left there they will trickle out. Well, 53 per cent. of the potatoes are gone.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

How do you know that? How do you know that 53 per cent of last year's crop is gone?

Mr. HOGAN

I think the figures show that six or seven thousand tons are taken already, or agreed to be taken, and the Department's inspectors advise us that as a result of the bad few weeks that we have just passed through and the consequently late crop of potatoes this year, that a very large percentage, as compared with any other year, will go. The case, in any event, is not nearly so bad as stated. It is not a case of having the whole crop left there on the field. A very considerable percentage of the potatoes at the worst will go. If it is a fact that we will be able to arrange to dispose of these at a very small price as a result of the bad market, and if it is a fact that in any event the district were scheduled or not they would never have a better market, I do not see a case for giving special treatment. I cannot see it. I do not see a case for passing special legislation for this particular case. If you do pass special legislation to meet this case, are you going to invite other scheduled districts? If we are handing out money at all we might as well hand it out all round.

Mr. GOREY

Had they a surplus?

Mr. HOGAN

They have not made much noise about it. There is no potato grower in the North who has not a surplus, a big surplus. Deputy O'Shannon asked what was the alternative, what else had they to do. They have not extra good land, they have light land, but it is much better land than the land in Galway, Connemara, Kerry or a great many of the other counties I could name. It is not bad land, and it is not so much that it is bad land, but that it is land that is particularly suitable for growing potatoes, and it is so suitable that they have made very big profits, and they refuse to turn to anything else or even to mix their farming.

Mr. GOREY

That is not right.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

Could they mix their crops?

Mr. HOGAN

I am surprised at Deputy Gorey. He does not suggest that there is any land where you cannot do a certain amount of mixed farming. It is much better land than the land along the coast. Parts of Clare or Galway — I could name the thirty-two counties of Ireland, if you like, and in each county you could find worse land than this. But it is peculiarly good land for potatoes. They have made very big profits out of potatoes, so big that they refuse to turn to anything else. This year they have practically their full crop of potatoes sown.

Mr. GOREY

Without manure.

Mr. HOGAN

Not so heavily manured. They put in three times as much manure as other farmers in Ireland do. But they have practically their full crop sown this year. Why would they not? Why should they not if the Treasury is to pay for their crops in a bad year and they make colossal benefits in good years. I am as anxious to help these people as anybody in the Dáil, but there is no case for special treatment here. We told them that we would authorise the local District Council to make grants for seeds and manure. They did not accept that; they did not want it. They could have kept pigs and a hundred and one things but they have chosen this year again to sow practically the same area of potatoes. You cannot help people like that. If they are willing, from their point of view, to take chances like that they should not come here and ask for assistance. When you look into all the facts, and forget the sympathy you would like to have, and merely go into the facts, there is no reason why this case should be singled out, and I am sorry I cannot recommend the Dáil to do so. We have done what we could; we have sent a special officer to help them to try and get rid of these potatoes, and we have been very successful. The prospect of having bad weather and of not having new potatoes at a very early date should enable them to get rid of a considerable amount of their crops, not all perhaps, at prices as good as any for men growing potatoes.

Mr. WILSON

The Minister has evaded the grave question of infection. The danger of infection is serious for other parts of the country and for other people. If there was a good market in England the potatoes would have been sold. Everyone knows the crop this year is double that of last year, and therefore 53 per cent. last year is only 25 per cent. of the present crop. Belfast, he says, accepted 20 per cent. Belfast only exported 20 per cent., and had Belfast proved a better market there might not be such reason for exporting the potatoes. The Minister made a good case, but the whole of it depends upon the market, and if there had been a market in England there would have been no hardship. This is not a question of right, it is a question of the safety of the country, and if the danger has been removed these poor people should be helped. They used their best judgment with a view to marketing their potatoes in England, but there a beneficient Providence had given a fine supply where formerly the people of Louth had a magnificent market. Under these circumstances they thought they could rely on the charity of the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. JOHNSON

That was a broken reed.

Mr. GOREY

As Deputy Wilson said, the Minister has avoided absolutely, in his remarks, the question of infection and the need for saving the rest of the country. That is the matter that concerns me and the other Deputies who represent other areas of the country. It is an important question, and it is the only question that I asked the Minister to deal with. It is very funny on the part of his own Department, to find that they can spend money in giving compensation for bees. If a hive is destroyed, the owner is entitled to compensation and be gets it. The question here is the great question of preventing infection spreading not only in Cooley area, but all over Louth, and to Dublin and the rest of the country, and if such infection does spread all these areas will have to be scheduled. I have only been in this particular district once, and on that occasion I met three or four dozen carts coming home from Dundalk market after selling their potatoes, and these potatoes are leaving by boat and cart for all parts of the country. Deputy Hughes talked about chaff. I am not concerned about chaff; it is no good to give to hungry people, but if he is very anxious about chaff let him go down to his own part of the country and give it to the people. I am ready to meet Deputy Hughes up there if he goes there.

Mr. HUGHES

If you go up there, you will get your eyes opened.

Mr. GOREY

There is no question of political capital as Deputy Hughes said about this; not a bit. There is room enough, for all of us.

Mr. HUGHES

In your own districts.

Mr. GOREY

There may be another man in your district.

Mr. HUGHES

He is welcome if he comes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Perhaps Deputy Gorey will be allowed to continue.

Mr. GOREY

That is all I have to say. The Minister has avoided the main question which is the need of expending money for the protection of the food of the people.

Mr. HOGAN

That is what we pay departmental officials for.

Mr. GOREY

That is no protection; The departmental officials are not doing it. I travel a lot and I know that you are not able to confine this infection.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 24 24; Níl, 24.

Tá

• Donchadh Ó Guaire.
• Seán Ó Duinnin.
• Micheál Ó hAonghusa.
• Domhnall Ó Mocháin.
• Tomás de Nógla.
• Riobárd O Deaghaidh.
• Tomás Mac Eoin.
• Seán O Ruanaidh.
• Liam Ó Bríain.
• Gearóid Mac Giobúin, K.C.
• Liam Mag Aonghusa.
• Tomás Ó Conaill.
• Séamus Eabhróid.
• Risteárd Mac Liam.
• Liam O Daimhín.
• Seán O Laidhin.
• Cathal Ó Seanáin.
• Peadar Ó hAodha.
• Séamus O Murchadha.
• Domhnall Ó Broin.
• Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
• Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
• Mícheál Ó Dubhghaill.
• Domhnall Ó Ceallachain.

Níl

• Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
• Seán O Maolruaidh.
• Séamus Breathnach.
• Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
• Deasmhumhain Mac Gearailt.
• Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
• Earnán Altún.
• Eoin Mac Néill.
• Pád aig Ó hÓgáin.
• Padraic O Máille.
• Piaras Béaslaí.
• Fionán O Loingsigh.
• Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
• Criostoir Ó Broin.
• Caoimhghin O hUigín.
• Próinsias Bulfin.
• Séamus Ó Dóláin.
• Aindriú Ó Láimhín.
• Próinsias Mag Aonghuusa.
• Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhrighde.
• Tomás Ó Domhnaill.
• Earnán de Blaghd.
• Uinseann de Faoite.
• Séamus de Burca.

Motion for adjournment agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

This is a motion which calls for an expenditure of public funds for a particular purpose, and a motion of that kind ought to command a majority of the votes in the Dáil, independent of the Ceann Comhairle. I, therefore, vote against the motion. The motion is lost.

Mr. DAVIN

Deputy Gorey will form a Government.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think it is an occasion for the Minister in charge to state his position.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The next question is the adjournment.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to move the adjournment until 3 p.m. to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.10 p.m.