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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 May 1929

Vol. 30 No. 4

Orders of the Day. - Juries (Protection) Bill, 1929—Committee Stage.

Section 1 put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.
(1) In every county and county borough to which the section is applied by an order made under this section the powers and duties conferred or imposed on the under-sheriff of such county or county borough by Part V. of the Principal Act, whether as empanelling officer summoning officer, or otherwise, shall as from the date of such order become and be transferred to and conferred or imposed on the several and respective officers on whom such powers and duties would respectively be conferred or imposed by the said Part V of the Principal Act if the office of such under-sheriff were vacant, and accordingly the said Part V of the Principal Act and in particular the expressions "the empanelling officer" and "the summoning officer" where they respectively occur therein shall as on and from the date of any such order be construed and have effect in respect of the county or county borough to which such order relates as if the office of under-sheriff in such county or county borough had first become vacant within the meaning of the said Part V of the Principal Act on the date of such order.
(2) The Minister for Justice may, whenever he thinks fit, by order made under this section, apply this section to any county or county borough in which the office of under-sheriff exists and is not vacant at the date of such order.

I move:—

In sub-section (1), line 24, to insert before the word "In" the words:—

"In every county and county borough to which this section is applied by an order made under this section the powers and duties conferred or imposed on the under-sheriff or the county registrar or any other officer of such county or county borough by Part 5 of the Principal Act as empanelling officer, shall hereafter be discharged by the secretary of the county council in the case of counties, and by the town clerk, or other principal clerk of the county borough, in the case of county boroughs and save as aforesaid"

I think that amendment 2—to delete sub-section (1)—might come before amendment 1.

Amendment 1 is in order. Amendments 3 and 5 are consequential upon amendment 1. I would not be prepared to accept amendment 2 or amendment 4. that is, to delete sub-section (1) and to delete sub-section (2), because I think a decision upon the deletion of the two sub-sections can be got by voting against the question that the section stand part of the Bill. To delete sub-section (1) would not be in order because it would have the same result as defeating the section. Those who are against sub-section (1) could get the same result by voting against the section.

The amendment is quite plain and speaks for itself. I do not want to reflect on the intelligence of the House by explaining it, and I formally move it.

This is an amendment which I could not possibly accept and which I would ask the House to reject. As the law stands at present, the empanelling is done in certain counties by the sheriff, but, as I explained on the Second Reading, wherever the office of sheriff has become vacant in recent years, under the Juries Act, 1927, the function of sub-sheriff or sheriff is discharged by the county registrar. All that this Bill says is that the county registrar should take up in certain cases the duties which would devolve upon him in any event if the office of sheriff became vacant, even though the office of sheriff has not become vacant.

In other words, it is merely accelerating what was thought to be right in 1927, before any question of the introduction of a Bill precisely of the nature of this Bill was in contemplation. What are the advantages which are proposed to be derived from having the work that is now being done by the sheriff in all counties except four done by the county registrar, not only in the four counties where it is now being done by him but also in other counties where it may appear to be advisable? What is the object of having it done by the secretary of the county council or by a town clerk? It is, so to speak, a mechanical duty. The lists are there; there is no picking, no selecting, no duties of any kind. Is it suggested that the county registrars are so completely dishonest that they cannot be trusted to carry out this purely mechanical duty honestly? That is what the amendment means, and nothing else. They are the proper persons to do it, and I cannot see any reason why they should not do it, except one, and that is that this amendment was put forward so that, by having the work done in the county council offices, entire publicity would be given to the jury panel. It is with the object of giving publicity to the jury panel that this amendment was put forward. I can see no other reason for it.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 49; Níl, 72.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Colohan, Hugh.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Flinn, Hugo.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Kerlin, Frank.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Craig, Sir James.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • De Loughrey, Peter.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Leonard, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, John.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Flinn and Briscoe; Níl: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment 6:—

To insert at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—

"All orders made under this section shall be laid on the Table of each House of the Oireachtas, and shall not be valid unless approved of by resolution of each House of the Oireachtas."

The meaning of this amendment is to secure, in a measure like this, that gives so much power—we have said already coercive powers— that there should not be such power in the discretion of the Minister without this or the other House constituting the Oireachtas having something to say in the matter. If the orders are laid on the Table of each House they can be discussed and considered.

This section gives no abnormal or extraordinary powers at all. It simply, as I have already pointed out, accelerates a certain thing which in any event must happen. I submit it is absurd that the Dáil and the Seanad should be asked to pass a resolution about a matter so small, and I ask the House to reject the amendment.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 47; Níl, 72.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Colohan, Hugh.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Flinn, Hugo.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Kerlin, Frank.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Craig, Sir James.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • De Loughrey, Peter.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Leonard, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Higgins, Thos.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, John.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies Briscoe and Flinn; Níl, Deputies P.S. Doyle and Duggan.
Amendment declared lost.
Question—"That Section 2 stand part of the Bill"—put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 48.

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Craig, Sir James.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Higgins, Thos.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Good, John.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Leonard, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, John.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Colohan, Hugh.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Flinn, Hugo.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Kerlin, Frank.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and Doyle; Níl: Deputies Flinn and Briscoe.
Question declared carried.
Progress ordered to be reported.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported. The Committee to sit again after the termination of Private Business.
Barr
Roinn