Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 May 2024

Role and Operation of the Health and Safety Authority: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I remind anyone who is participating in the meeting remotely that they must do that from within the Leinster House complex only. Apologies have been received from Senators Róisín Garvey and Marie Sherlock.

Today we are going to look at the role and operation of the Health and Safety Authority. The Health and Safety Authority is an important regulatory body that comes under the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The authority carries out important work with regard to regulations on occupational safety and health, chemicals, market surveillance and accreditation.

The committee is pleased that we have an opportunity to consider these matters further with the following representatives from the Health and Safety Authority: Mr. Conor O'Brien, chief executive, and Mr. Mark Cullen, Dr. Kevin De Barra, Dr. Adrienne Duff and Ms Yvonne Mullooly, who are assistant chief executives.

Before we start, I mention some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the House regarding references the witnesses make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice not to criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Mr. O'Brien to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Health and Safety Authority.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

The Health and Safety Authority welcomes the opportunity to meet the committee today. I am the chief executive of the authority, and I am accompanied today by my assistant chief executives, as introduced by the Cathaoirleach earlier. I thank the Chairman of the committee for inviting us to speak and outline our general role and operations.

Established in 1989 under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, which has been replaced by the 2005 Act, the Health and Safety Authority is the national statutory body with responsibility for enforcing occupational safety and health law, promoting and encouraging accident prevention, and providing information, advice and education on safety and health for all workplaces. Additional functions have been conferred on the authority since then under the Chemicals Acts 2008 and 2010 and other legislation. In 2014, the Irish National Accreditation Board was included under the authority’s functions.

The authority’s responsibilities extend far beyond occupational health and safety. We also play a crucial role in areas such as accreditation, market surveillance and the regulation of chemicals and industrial products. As a national competent authority, our work is essential for implementing the EU chemicals strategy for sustainability. Furthermore, we assist Irish industry in bringing its goods to market and support the effective management of economic supply challenges, including those arising from the UK’s departure from the EU and the conflict in Ukraine. We are also the competent authority for several critical activities such as control of major accident hazard sites and transportation of dangerous goods by road.

Partnership has always been at the forefront of our approach, whether through the operation of advisory committees, agreed work programmes or the provision of guidance and advice. Our tripartite board, with representatives from employee and employer stakeholders as members, recognises the importance of constructive and co-operative engagement in meeting our goal of healthy, safe and productive lives and enterprises. We believe engagement between employees and employers is equally critical to meet this goal in each workplace.

The work of the Health and Safety Authority plays a pivotal role in ensuring the safety and well-being of individuals throughout the State. The areas of work we cover are as diverse as the economy itself. One of our key functions is to develop and maintain a culture of safety and health for more than 2.7 million people who work in Ireland today, whether they are employers, self-employed or employees. I am very conscious in presenting statistics that behind these numbers are real people and families, and I acknowledge the people whose lives have been changed irrevocably through work-related activities. A total of 459 people died in work-related incidents in Ireland over the past decade, while 43 people died in workplace incidents last year. A continued high level of fatalities was experienced in farming and construction, with these sectors accounting for more than two thirds of all fatalities. So far this year, ten people have lost their lives. However, despite employment numbers increasing, authority records show an overall decrease in the rate of workplace fatalities per 100,000 workers in Ireland over this period, from a rate of 4.9 in 1990 to 1.6 today.

In 2023, we undertook targeted inspection campaigns in the high-risk sectors of construction, agriculture and quarries, transport and storage, health and social care, and chemical production and storage. We completed 9,995 proactive and 463 reactive inspections across all economic sectors. We completed 225 investigations following incident reports received. A total of 83 investigations were undertaken into fatal accidents, of which 43 were deemed work-related. Nineteen prosecutions were concluded, resulting in fines totalling more than €1.3 million. Our inspection approach is that the vast majority of inspections are unannounced. In some instances, advance notice must be provided for operational reasons.

Throughout 2023, the authority continued its support for and engagement with key stakeholders through the farm safety partnership advisory committee and the construction safety partnership advisory committee. We are also engaged with both employer and employee stakeholders in other sectors. In 2023, the board approved the establishment of a new health and social care advisory committee, which met for the first time in recent weeks. This committee will provide a forum for key stakeholders to advise and support the authority in promoting best practice in occupational health and safety in this sector.

Our organisational structures and work processes have undergone significant transformation in recent years. This momentum continues and we will further grow our teams and expertise and embed integrated ways of working and advanced technology solutions this year. The authority currently has sanction for 317 staff, which represents a significant increase in recent years. Our staff are critical to carrying out the important work of inspecting, enforcing, promoting, educating and generally raising awareness, increasing understanding and securing commitment across all workplaces. With thanks to Government support and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in particular, we can continue to expand our workforce and further enhance our impact on workplace safety and health. At present, we have 273 staff members in position, with 44 current vacancies. A total of 120 new staff have joined the authority in the three years since 2022. While we continue to strive towards our sanctioned headcount, we face similar challenges to other public sector bodies in competing with a buoyant labour market, with a low starting salary for roles that are typically highly specialised and technical.

The significant reduction in work-related fatality rates highlights the impact of effective regulation in saving lives and reducing both injuries and illnesses. This investment also directly translates into cost savings for the Exchequer and the economy.

Our programme of work for 2024 is well advanced and has been developed to complement the priorities as outlined in our strategy statement. The 2024 programme of work is the third and final programme in the current strategic cycle. A key priority is on occupational health. While the prevention of work-related fatalities is of course vital, many thousands of workers suffer life-changing injuries and illnesses every year, and it is essential the health of workers and not just their physical safety is an integral part of all Irish workplaces. Our occupational health division continues to prioritise activity in relation to psychosocial hazards and risks in key sectors. As mentioned, a health and social care advisory committee of the board has also recently been established and we look forward to the sectoral expertise that the committee can provide to our board.

A further key task for our board in 2024 is the development of our next strategy statement for the period 2025 to 2027. We will engage in wide and meaningful consultation with stakeholders, staff and the public and we look forward to submitting our new strategy to the Minister in October. The changing world of work, driven in many ways by technology and new ways of working, has created emerging and evolving challenges in ensuring the safety, health and welfare of all workers. These challenges are only likely to increase in the future. This new world of work features a blended work environment for many organisations. Entirely new industries have emerged and jobs that did not exist a decade ago are now commonplace. Novel ways of working, once the preserve of niche workers, have become widely accepted. These changes have also introduced new workplace hazards that employers must carefully consider. With new challenges emerging in workplace safety and health, coupled with an increasingly intricate regulatory landscape, it is clear the demands on our resources will continue to increase into the future.

The reality is our work remains vital in ensuring the safety and well-being of every worker in Ireland. The staff of the authority is committed to cultivating a workplace culture focused on safety and health across all Irish workplaces. Our aim is to drive behavioural change and achieve sustained performance improvement, thereby reducing accidents, ill health and fatalities. I thank the staff and management of the HSA for their continued dedication and hard work. I thank the committee members for their attention. We welcome their questions and observations.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. O'Brien. I now invite members to discuss the issues with the representatives. I remind our witnesses and members they cannot mention specific cases or companies, if they are inclined to do that. The first person to speak will be Deputy Louise O'Reilly.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Chair.

I hope he was not looking at me when he was issuing that warning.

An Cathaoirleach

No, I was issuing that warning to everybody.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I am only joking. I wish everyone a good morning. I thank the witnesses for the evidence provided and for the work they do. I have had first-hand experience of dealing with their organisation. The staff were always efficient. They are good at what they do, and it is very necessary. I have a couple of questions. I will try to relate them to the points in the authority's submission if that is okay.

On point 18, can the witnesses give me an idea of what the incident breach rate was for the investigations? The submission lists the investigations that took place, but what is the breach rate? For the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, it is about 50%. Can the witnesses give us an indication of how many of the 10,458 proactive and reactive investigations that took place found a breach and maybe give an idea of the areas or type involved?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Sure. I will start and give some general information and then Mr. Cullen might come in. In 2023, we issued 290 prohibition notices in respect of to findings we had while carrying out inspections. They were across the sectors, including agriculture, construction, healthcare and manufacturing. We also issued over 400 improvement notices in that period. They are for lesser breaches but nevertheless they stem from things the inspectors found that might have been a concern. They would have issued an improvement notice and then followed up on it. We also issued over 7,000 pieces of written advice across those 10,000 inspections, so at the end of every inspection if there are things that are of note that do not necessarily require a prohibition notice or an improvement notice they will issue some advice. That advice is not only on a sanction but also on where inspectors see areas of improvement or where they have seen best practice on another site.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is what I wanted to say. It is not always a punitive thing. It can be an improvement thing as well.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes, it can be. The improvement notice is generally a milder breach of the regulations but the written advice can include general good practice as well.

Mr. Mark Cullen

To add something further, the written advice comes under our primary legislation - a bona fide request. In itself, that is a direction to an employer to make the improvements. As outlined in our opening statement, it is about improving the culture of health and safety. From the inspector's perspective that means working with the employers and employees to ensure health and safety is being managed proactively and in doing that, what the inspector observes and the opinions they form will dictate the level of enforcement. There is a high level of written advice, which will contain directions, and then it is lesser as we go up to improvement notices and prohibition notices. Last year, we concluded 19 prosecutions, but there is a lag on those because they are coming primarily from investigations. Investigations can take anything from two to four years and do not come into the courts system for a long period, so there is a prosecutorial piece-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Why do they not come into the courts system for a long period? Is it down to general delays?

Mr. Mark Cullen

The complexity of investigation dictates the timeline in respect of them coming before the courts.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank Mr. Cullen. Point 19 relates to something that is a bit of a bugbear of mine. I refer to advance notice inspections. Are there specific sectors that will always get notice? I appreciate that the witnesses are saying they sometimes have to give notice and cannot be jumping out of the back of a van all the time. I am just wondering whether it is always in the one sector. What about meat plants? Would it always be announced, the opposite or a mix of both? I am not going to reference any particular sector, but I might as well reference the area as it is one we are all familiar with. I am asking for the officials to give us an idea of the difference between when an inspection is announced or unannounced and whether that has any impact on rates of compliance, interaction at the level of the workplace with the employer or anything like that.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Some 87% of our inspections are unannounced and 13% are announced. It could be across a number of different areas where we engage with the employer before doing the inspection. It could be where there is a particular production line in a factory that would need to be active for us to see it and the expertise needed there, so we talk to them about it. It could be in any situation. Mr. Cullen might outline other situations.

Mr. Mark Cullen

In the health sector, if we are going into a hospital setting we want the right people there, but there is only short notice. There is very little-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Talk to me about that. How long is the short notice?

Mr. Mark Cullen

It could be 24 to 48 hours ahead.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Okay.

Mr. Mark Cullen

It is extremely short. With the announced ones, it could be that we served a notice and wanted to go back to see compliance with that notice. We could give some short notice again that we are coming there to look at that and we want the right people there. When we do our inspections, we want the top senior management there to listen to what we are saying and the direction, so we might make some contact in that regard. With the meat plants, we would not announce our inspections. There was a time during Covid when it was necessary to do so in view of the fact that there could be an outbreak of the virus in a workplace.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Yes, but outside of Covid compliance, Mr. Cullen is saying that as a general rule the authority would not announce inspections. When it is an unannounced inspection, do the officials find that people are a bit hostile? Does it make a difference if it is announced or unannounced?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Generally not. The vast majority of people are very aware of who we are and very familiar with our work. In some cases, we have even been welcomed. I have been on a good number of accompanied inspections, and I would say 99% of the time people are happy to work with us.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is good.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Of course, it is not universal.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The authority would not be doing its job right if it was.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Exactly. We come across people who might be under a great deal of pressure at a particular point. We have to be conscious of that and be very careful in those situations.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Yes. In Mr. Cullen's experience, when he says he needs to speak to the senior people who are there, is there a high level of compliance? If we take a hospital, obviously the authority is going to need to see senior clinicians. Does Mr. Cullen find there is any difficulty with that or are people happy to co-operate? Maybe "happy" is the wrong word. Are they content to co-operate?

Mr. Mark Cullen

It would be fair to say there is a high level of co-operation because safety is everybody's business, and we certainly do not want a regulator coming in and then an organisation ignoring its advice. That would be to our disadvantage for obvious reasons. We see positive engagement with all employers. Of course, as Mr. O'Brien said, there are some that may resist but the vast majority work with us and are prepared to listen to us and work with the directions we give them.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

How does the follow-up happen after the notices are issued? It is all very well for the authority to tell an organisation it has to do it, but does it know someone is coming back to check in a week, two weeks, three weeks, a month or whatever?

Mr. Mark Cullen

The organisation will not know when we are coming back. There might be exceptions where we have to give notification, but the prohibition notices would be followed up because that is the high level of the enforcement. That is where there is a serious risk of injury likely to occur and that is why we would serve a prohibition notice. We would follow up on that and on improvement notices. Less so on the reports of inspections because then we are into the minor directions from the inspector. We follow up on all the significant high-level enforcement and the more serious pieces of enforcement.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Okay. I move to points 24 and 25 on staffing. Will the officials give me a breakdown of how many of their total staff count are dedicated to carrying out inspections? They can express that as a whole-time equivalent or whatever way they want. A 14% vacancy rate was alluded to. That is not a small number given the seriousness of the work. Will the officials give us a breakdown of what the roles are? Are they existing roles people have resigned or retired from? If staff have resigned rather than retired I would like to know the difference. Is there anything that can be done either at the committee or by Government to accelerate the filling of these roles?

There was also reference to pay being a barrier. We could be here all day comparing the public service to the private sector and I know well the differences between both. I imagine it is very hard to find comparators, but can the officials give us an idea of the kind of comparable salaries that exist in the private sector for this specialised and technical work? Maybe they can also give us an idea about the terms and conditions. If it is the case the HSA is falling down in terms of private sector comparators or losing people to the private sector, that is the kind of information I am interested in.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Starting with the inspectors, we have 164 people in inspector grades in the organisation. We have 85 of those doing either inspections or investigations and 79 of them are doing things like market surveillance work in the chemicals area in terms of control of major accident hazards, COMAH, inspections.

They are also grades we use for accreditation so our accreditation assessors are in that number as well.

We have 44 vacancies at the moment with 29 of them being inspector grade III vacancies. That will give the Deputy an idea of the situation. The vacancies are not as a result of people resigning or retiring. They are as a result of increased headcount that we received from that Department for which we are extremely grateful. We are working hard to fill those vacancies as quickly as we can. As I said in my opening statement, the issue is primarily down to salary. For instance, we do a significant campaign to recruit grade IIIs. We start with a large number of people but that quickly whittles down to a small number of people because, in fairness to people in the private sector, they are used to negotiating their salary, etc., and we have fixed salaries, as have all public sector bodies. The feedback we get when people drop out of the process is that it is down to the salary or, in the meantime, they have picked up a job at a higher salary in another organisation or in a private sector organisation.

We have a normal rate of staff turnover. Another thing to note about our positions is that we seek very specific technical expertise in some cases, and particularly in the chemical area, which is not that easy to find.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Does salary pose a barrier when seeking technical expertise?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

It can be but less so. The biggest issue with salaries is at the lower level of grade IIIs but it can also happen at higher levels. The more specialised a person becomes then the more in-demand his or her skills. We try to compete at all levels. There are a lot of attractions to working in the public service in terms of the other things we can offer such as leave, flexible working, etc., which are all very good benefits that attract people but salary is the baseline.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

What is the difference? Is it career prospects and salary? Is it just the baseline salary and conditions? I am sure the conditions in the public service in respect of pensions, etc., are similar and comparable with a decent employer in the private sector. At what point does difference arise? What is Mr. O'Brien talking in terms of salary?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Our starting salary for grade IIIs is around €35,000. We would like to start five or six points up the salary scale to compete.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

What kind of qualifications do people have?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

They generally have engineering-type qualifications. We would also look for up to two years of experience and we just cannot compete for that.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

If the starting salary is €35,000, what is a comparable salary in the private sector?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Probably in the early €40,000s.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I can see how that is a deterrent.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Even at graduate level, we can see people achieving those sort of salaries. We are working on this with our Department, which is very aware of the situation, and seeing what we can do in terms of those salaries.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Is it in the engineering space that the HSA is recruiting people?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

On the occupational safety side, it is engineering-type people. On the occupational health side, it could be people with medical experience. On the chemical side-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The HSA is looking for industrial chemists.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes, exactly or toxicologists. There is a whole range.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Are these all job vacancies in the private sector?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes. There could be a big demand for those, yes.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Chair and I will come in again, if that is all right.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. The next slot belongs to the Fine Gael Party and Deputy David Stanton has 14 minutes.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Chairman. I welcome and thank Mr. O'Brien and his colleagues. I thank the HSA for the hugely important work done by its employees. Every day, week and year they save lives and prevent injuries, etc. As the chief executive said, we cannot forget there are families, children, etc., behind all the statistics. We all know of cases where people were injured or died in the workplace. On the work done by the HSA, am I right in saying that the culture has changed? There was a time when people felt that it will be all right and we will get on with it, etc.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

I have heard people say that we have gone over the top with health and safety. I do not subscribe to that in anyway. I do not think that we can ever have enough health and safety. Over the years, have we become more safety conscious in the workplace generally?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes. I know from my own experience working in the private sector, going back to the 1980s when the 1989 Act came in, a sea change occurred. I mean people started to take health and safety seriously from that point on and it started to become part of the culture of organisations. In a lot of the organisations I worked in at that time I could see that happening. The real sea change from my perspective was the 2005 Act and the duty of responsibilities for senior people in organisations. That brought health and safety up to a completely new level in terms of how seriously health and safety was taken. Then we started to see more and more work in terms of health and safety committees, the appointment of health and safety officers and, indeed, more recently, health and safety representatives who are employee representatives regarding health and safety. The cultural change has been on an exponential scale. Luckily, the fatality rates have reduced in line with that. There has been a serious change in culture.

Deputy David Stanton

Obviously the mindset has changed and there is encouragement to report danger or risk-----

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

-----at all levels. What is the current situation with regard to the practice of companies advertising the fact they have no workplace accidents or incidents and putting that information on a big sign? Is that still allowed? My concern is that such behaviour would discourage the reporting of risk, danger or small accidents, which could be detrimental in the long run.

Mr. Mark Cullen

Advertising is not as common as it used to be, which was advertised as "injury free hours". It is not an area that we would look at per se. We would look at the contractors on that site and reporting there because there is a legislative remit to report an accident where an employee is out of work for longer than three days, so four plus days. We would focus on that legislative requirement. Once we go in for inspections, while we can look at any aspect within that workplace, we cover the reporting on a number of inspections, so if we believe there is an issue on a site or with a contractor, then we can bring that up and address it. As incidents must be reported to us, we do have records in the background from which we can get a profile on the level of reporting or otherwise. The practice of advertising the injury-free hours is not as common as it was five to ten years ago.

Deputy David Stanton

I am concerned because I have heard of some companies that have that practice and people are discouraged from reporting incidents and accidents as a result. I ask the HSA to look at the matter to see whether it can be further examined and to ask companies, or perhaps to look at legislation, to ban it. I understand the rationale behind the practice. It is flying a flag saying, "We are a safe company". If the unintended consequence of the practice is not to report accidents, incidents and risk, then we should examine the matter.

I would like more details on what the newly established, or being established, health and social care advisory committee will do.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

Last year, the board of the authority established the health and social care advisory committee. We identified in our work programme that we wanted to engage more with the health and social care sector and we are exploring various forums for that to happen. We have a structure within the authority where we have two advisory committees in the agriculture and construction sectors. They seem like a very good model to get the voices from the sectors to provide advice to the authority on key occupational health and safety issues within the sectors. Also, it would be a voice for promoting occupational health and safety to the sectors.

The board approved the establishment of the new advisory committee last year. As recently as a few weeks ago, the committee was set up and we held our first meeting. We have two further meetings planned for this year and an associated work plan to go with that.

Deputy David Stanton

Are we talking about working in hospitals, clinics or generally speaking? Please give us more detail on the concerns that led to the establishment of the newest committee.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

It was not necessarily established based on concerns but more from the fact that we wanted to have the voice of the sector, which is extremely extensive and covers acute hospitals, residential care settings, social care setting and home care. It was a mechanism to have all the stakeholders in the one room and us talking together, and working in partnership, on occupational health and safety matters.

Deputy David Stanton

The statement contains a reference to the farm safety partnership advisory committee.

For some time, I have been interested in the issue of solar photovoltaic panels. Between 2020 and 2021 in the UK there was a 12% increase in the number of fire incidents relating to solar panel systems. In 2015 there was an influx of new suppliers there. They sold cheap products, made some money and disappeared. It has been said that this is a bit like the Wild West. Has the HSA focused on this new growth area of solar panel installation on farms buildings and homes? People are climbing up on roofs and putting up this stuff. Sometimes the installers may not be properly accredited, registered or trained. These installations can lead to fires, electric shocks and other things.

Mr. Mark Cullen

That is a growing area and there is a major scheme for schools to have solar panels fitted. Working at height is the number one cause of fatalities. We have engaged with different stakeholders to try to raise awareness of that. That would come in primarily under the construction sector where they are making alterations to structure. The construction team within the authority, led by the senior inspector there, is engaged with key stakeholders to get ahead of the curve and get information out there. Working at height has been an issue since I joined the authority 24 years ago. There is a lot of information, support and advice in that respect. We will have an inspection programme looking at solar panel installation.

Deputy David Stanton

Does the HSA work with other agencies such as Safe Electric with respect to the safe installation of these panels? As I said, in the UK between 2020 and 2021, there was a huge increase in the number of fire incidents. I do not think we will be any different here because it is expanding at a massive rate, which is good. However, we need to ensure the people installing them on farms, homes and schools are trained and know what they are doing. Does the HSA have any engagement with Safe Electric to ensure the people installing them are trained and know what they are doing? This affects not just the construction end of it but also the electrical side of it, which is a big area.

Mr. Mark Cullen

I cannot say definitively what stakeholder group we have, but stakeholders are a key part of our current strategy. We are currently developing our next strategy. One of the key pieces for the authority is to engage with all the key stakeholders because we cannot do it alone. It is not just about the inspection and regulation piece; it is also about prevention. We engage with stakeholders and Safe Electric could be one. I can come back to clarify if we have engaged with it. We have engaged with a number of stakeholders and will continue to do so in respect of solar panels and working at height. It goes across all sectors. Solar panels are being installed across the board, even in the domestic setting. Once a contractor goes on the roof in a domestic setting, it becomes a place of work. It is not just unique to farms and schools. We have been engaging with many stakeholders and will continue to do so. I just cannot say on that particular one; I do not have that detail.

Deputy David Stanton

Representatives from the SEAI recently appeared before the committee and we put similar questions to them. They informed me that they have two lists, one of the companies that install solar panels and the other one of the actual installers who are qualified. I mentioned to them that Safe Electric had a concern that if somebody was removed from the Safe Electric list, the SEAI might not know about it. The Department of agriculture has a similar arrangement. It has a similar form for declaration of works and so forth. The Department of agriculture has just one list even though its form seems to imply there are two. It is not possible to get a list of installers from them. If somebody is installing a system, they cannot figure out who the installer is; it is not possible. In addition, some companies have been using the SEAI application instead of the Department of agriculture application and there are anomalies in that. Does looking at that kind of high-level carelessness come under the remit of the HSA?

Mr. Mark Cullen

In terms of carelessness, obviously any place of work comes under our remit. We are not involved in the registration of competent contractors. There is a definition of competency under the primary legislation covering the HSA and that is what we need to work from. Being on a register may be an indication of competency, but when carrying out an inspection we would make an assessment of whether they are competent based on the work carried out. We are not involved in the application per se, but we form our opinion on any contractor based on the work on site. If we deem that there are concerns or that the contractor may not be competent, we may give directions for the work to stop. Whatever the inspector sees on that inspection will determine the direction to be given to that contractor. We do not have a role in the application piece. The 2005 Act allows us to go into any workplace and through that inspection programme we will determine competency based on what we observe.

Deputy David Stanton

If an organisation like Safe Electric comes across practices such as I have described, is it obliged to inform the HSA?

Mr. Mark Cullen

There is no obligation there, but we have a contact centre and we receive a significant number of complaints there. They are treated with confidentiality. When we are engaging with stakeholders, sometimes we may get a contact name through that. There is no obligation to report it, but there is a channel there for the reporting of complaints or serious incidents or practices that might be questionable.

Deputy David Stanton

Can we get a breakdown of the unfortunate fatalities and accidents that have occurred on farms? What areas are of most concern and most likely to lead to accident, injury and death?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I can give some information on that. Dr. Duff might like to come in if I miss anything. In 2014 there were 32 people killed on the farms and last year it was 16. Over the last ten years, there have been 191 fatalities on farms. Over half of those were people more than 65 years old. People who are 65 and older are three times more likely to have a work-related accident. Regarding the causes of those accidents, close to half of them involved vehicles; 20% involved livestock and interacting with animals, particularly at calving time; and 13% involved falling from a height such as working on the roof of a barn and falling through the roof. Over the last ten years, ten people have been killed in quad bike accidents. Most unfortunately, in that ten-year period, 17 fatalities have involved people under the age of 17 which is an absolute tragedy. That gives a broad idea.

Deputy David Stanton

Farmers very often work on their own. Is that an issue here? Is the huge stress and pressure on farms, especially at this time of year and earlier, a factor? I know the Minister has made changes on this. Many applications and reports have to be made by farmers at the busiest time of the year when they are involved in calving and everything else when they might be stressed out. Is the HSA concerned about that issue?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

There are many risks and dangers on farms. There are many lone workers in farming and many of them are over 55 and even over 65. Farming involves the use of very large and dangerous machinery, and farm animals can be very dangerous. As the Deputy said, people are working under a lot of pressure. They work long hours to try to keep things going. There are many reasons for fatalities in the farming industry.

Regarding HSA inspections, we do not look for returns or anything like that. We do not look for anything from farmers. We just carry out our normal inspection regime. We try to fit our inspection campaigns in with whatever the seasonal matter might be. For instance, coming into silage season we carry out machinery inspections. At calving time, we work with farmers to identify how to stay safe when working with animals. At harvesting time, we again look at machinery.

We work through the different seasons and the different cycles in the farming industry to try to prevent hazards and to keep things at the forefront of farmers' minds when they are working in particular situations.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Mr. O'Brien.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank Mr. O'Brien for the presentation. To explore a little further the farming side, there seems to be some fairly clear indicators there under vehicles, livestock and falls. Has the HSA ever considered, rather than just the inspection which can potentially be quite a hostile environment, something like an NCT and that every five years things would have to be looked at by some partner? There are many organisations in the farming world which could be the partner in running their eye over crushes for livestock or those shafts in which people often get caught-----

Mr. Conor O'Brien

PTO shafts.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Has something like that every been looked at which could be done on a wider scale rather than an inspection regime that essentially the HSA has to fund and staff?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Regarding the inspection regime, we work as much in the influence and promote space as we do in the regulate space. Yes, we are looking for compliance with the regulations in the inspections but, as I said earlier, in some of the other sectors we are doing an awful lot of work with the farmers to try to help them in respect of improvements that can be made on things we see as we are going through our visits, for instance, the livestock crush. We may have seen better ways of structuring or of running those facilities while out on other inspections and we will give that information to the farmer while we are there. An awful lot of what we do in the inspection itself is related to helping and influencing. Even outside of the inspection regime, we do a huge amount of work through the farm safety partnership advisory committee and through all of the various codes of practice, guidelines and checklists that we issue. We also do a lot of training through the HSE portal for online learning. We have a very good tool for helping the farmer to build a safety statement on risk assessment. I have gone through it myself to see what it is like and it is very easy to use. Inspection is only a small part of what we do. It is the macro of everything we do here that helps.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I would be interested to explore a bit more what Mr. O'Brien is referencing with remote working and the broader concept of mental health stress and well-being in the workplace. On remote working, I presume it is quite a change in employers' responsibilities in not having a site that they can see every day and be conscious of the different things. Has the HSA developed codes of practice at this point? It is a sort of an uneasy relationship between someone operating in their home and the expectations.

The second thing is that I have been doing a bit of work on positive ageing and one of the things that is very clear is there is very little preplanning for the transition from work. Often people see a very abrupt change in all their social contacts and in their connectedness and status. It brought to my mind that there are much wider issues in the workplace in terms of how people protect their well-being in a life course, not just when they are in the workplace. I am interested to know how the HSA approaches those, perhaps fluffier, issues of well-being in the workplace? What codes should be in place at certain stages in people's careers to do checks as to where they are regarding stress and planning and other things they will need in the longer term?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I will deal with the remote working and Dr. Duff might deal with the secondary piece around ageing.

Remote working has become a massive thing in Ireland. An EU survey was done in 2021 that showed a third of people reporting as working from home in some way. From the Heath and Safety Authority's perspective, the responsibility lies with the employer entirely, whether employees are working from home or in the office. It does not matter where they are working. The same legislation still applies regardless. The employer must make sure the environment in which the employee is working in that home is suitable.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Is there a test of what is reasonable? If an employer has not visited the site, would they be deemed automatically negligent?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

We recommend employers would carry out an assessment, not necessarily on site but it could be done remotely. We have guidelines and checklists on our website that are very regularly downloaded that show people how to structure this work and if they have home workers, how they make sure the working area is set up correctly. Employers should be carrying out checks in respect of the furniture being used, the desk and the chair, but also that the display equipment is suitable for the purpose, and it is the employer's responsibility to make sure that is done. Of course, the employees also have a responsibility here as well. Anybody who is working from home needs to look after themselves. They need to make sure the area in which they are working and the equipment they are using is suitable. Of course, as the Deputy referenced, with people working from home, organisations need to be conscious of isolation and maintaining the culture of their organisation and trying to find mechanisms that work. It could be having anchor days in the office, doing team meetings once a week, or whatever it might be to make sure people are included and that any sense of isolation is minimised or any stressors that could be building up are being dealt with on a proactive basis.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Has the HSA started any sort of an inspection regime in this arena or is it still setting the codes?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I will pass over to Dr. Duff to address that.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

Yes, we are beginning to look at inspections in this particular area, very much focusing on the head office of the employer and ascertaining the risk assessment they are carrying out for their employees who are availing of remote working.

Deputy Richard Bruton

It must be tricky enough. We have been talking about employer surveillance and the concerns and red flags that raises, but going into someone's home is a tricky area. Will Dr. Duff speak on the other question, that is, on the wider thing of over one's life course maintaining a sound stress reducing strategy?

Dr. Adrienne Duff

One of the main functions of the occupation health division is to focus on employee health over the duration of their working life and to certainly raise awareness with employers as to their duties with regard to occupational health hazards. These might include chemical, biological, psychosocial and ergonomic hazards. It is a multidisciplinary approach where we want employers to identify health hazards that may impact on employees over the course of their lifetimes, and certainly beyond their working life into retirement, and to mitigate acquiring an occupational health illness. Regarding the psychosocial space, we are very committed in our programme of work this year to raising awareness of psychosocial hazards and to dealing with psychosocial risks for employers. As Mr. O'Brien mentioned, we use a multi-regulatory approach and we are very much focused on the promotion space at the moment by raising awareness on psychosocial hazards and risks in the workplace through media advertising and hosting webinars-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

Would these be things like bullying or is it more sophisticated?

Dr. Adrienne Duff

It includes bullying and work-related stress. We recently held two webinars where we had over 600 attendees and these were about managing conflict in the workplace and trying to mitigate conflict arising in the workplace by taking one step back to prevent it happening. We also focus on education and as part of our e-learning, we have included psychosocial risks and hazards in our short awareness-raising courses so that employers and employees can take these courses and begin to identify and deal with psychosocial risks and hazards. We also have two online tools. One is called WorkpositiveCI which enables employers to carry out a psychosocial risk assessment in their workplace. Then we are building out for smaller businesses, SMEs, our BeSMART online tool which again will enable risk assessments to be developed considering psychosocial risks.

An Cathaoirleach

Next is Deputy Shanahan followed by Deputy Louise O'Reilly. They both have seven minutes.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I thank the Chair and guests. I am old enough to have worked in a number of different sectors. I remember when the HSA came on board it was not always seen as a welcome introduction into the workplace. It does important work, however. The figures speak for themselves, in terms of improvement across the economy in the protection of workers.

Some of my colleagues have touched on points I wish to raise. I would like to go back to agriculture. We saw some horrific fatalities in the past five or ten years, where farmers were overcome with methane and slurry tank gas. As the witnesses know, even holding water ponds can attract gas. Power take-off, PTO, shafts and shells have certainly improved, but there is still a problem when they are taken off for maintenance, in particular during harvesting season. The shells get broken because a mass of vegetation is caught in them and is then pulled off.

I refer to harvesting season. I am close to the farm sector and do not want to attack it, but during harvesting I see 16-year-olds driving 150 hp tractors with ten tonnes of silage behind them. They are racing to try to get over and back. I know the HSA is being vigilant, but farmers are under pressure and do not have manpower. They end up bringing in their sons and nephews around harvest time, in particular when they are slow getting contractors. I ask the HSA to speak to farmers about these issues, in particular lights and brakes on tractors and trailers. These are major issues. When those vehicles go out of control, the momentum can do untold damage. The witnesses stated farm visits are taking place, but what is the HSA doing in terms of community engagement with farmers, such as inviting IFA members to meetings and giving presentations on these issues?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I agree with the Deputy on PTO shafts. There have been huge changes in recent years but we are still seeing accidents involving PTO shafts, which is where the PTO cover is damaged or missing, having been taken off for maintenance and not replaced. On any of the inspections I have been on, it is a major point of focus for the inspectors. They will look at all of the machines and make sure the PTO shafts are in place. We encourage that through all of the promotion we do at the ploughing championships, the Tullamore Show and information on our website. We encourage people to check PTO shafts because they are incredibly dangerous.

In terms of vehicle injuries, as I said earlier regarding the 44% of injuries on farms over the past ten years, just under half of the 191 deaths involve vehicles and machinery. We encourage safe practice in the use of machinery and tractors, in particular at busy times such as harvesting. We do a lot of work with farmers across the community and all stakeholders in terms of vehicle safety. It features when we are present at things like the ploughing championships. For example, last year we did a lot of work on quad bikes because we were implementing the new legislation. That was a big feature. In other years, we would make sure to cover things like tractor safety. A lot of work is done across these areas because the use of these vehicles is a high-risk activity and a key focus for the authority.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

On slurry tanks, the authority partnered with Irish Rural Link on slurry safety. A farm safety sign was developed to place near agitation points, something which has become a Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine requirement. Between 2006 and 2015, the number of fatalities from drowning decreased from 20 to 12. That demonstrates that particular initiative is working. It is important to keep reiterating the same messages. While we had a focus on PTO shafts a number of years ago, we might come back to reinforce that message at various engagements with stakeholders. We partner with Teagasc advisers and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on providing resources and information on farm safety, in particular at key times of the year and key pressure points throughout the year.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

As I said, there needs to be constant vigilance in the sector, in particular at high stress times and when trained manpower is not available. That is a problem. Years ago, every farm had a farm labourer who had worked there for 20 or 30 years and was quite skilled at what they did. The problem is that farmers are now drafting in children after junior or leaving certificate years for harvesting. Farmers have no choice. There are obviously inherent dangers in that. We are not trying to blame farmers; it is a very difficult job and has become even more difficult. Machinery has become bigger and the requirements to get work done have become more intense.

Does the authority play any role in conflict resolution in the workplace? A lot of large employers have informal WhatsApp groups because workers organise themselves, for sports clubs or whatever else is going on. Bullying or isolation can occur around that. This is not about making employers responsible. Rather, I refer to developing a code of conduct. There are often industrial relations issues. Does the authority have any role to play in speaking to workers about the importance of the communication they are engaged in? They may speak informally in a group, but that can get back to other people. It is a problem in intense working areas where there are conflicts. What role might the HSA play in that? It is a mental health issue for some people.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

Bullying is a psychosocial hazard that should be considered a health and safety hazard, along with many others, in the workplace. The role of the authority is to ensure that an employer has systems and processes in place to mitigate bullying and ensure it is not facilitated or tolerated in the workplace.

We do not have a role in adjudicating on individual bullying complaints. That is a matter for the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. The authority and the WRC have come together in partnership to produce a code of practice for employers and employees for the prevention and resolution of workplace bullying. As recently as 2021, we updated that code of practice. We also have an e-learning course on our website and free courses on workplace bullying. Since that has been introduced, over 4,000 of those courses have been taken. We have a role with regard to bullying, along with the WRC, and that is set out in the code of practice.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I do not want to speak too much about bullying, but there is an epidemic of it in the workplace and in many instances it is silently destroying people's lives. I am not certain what the answer to that is, beyond education systems and processes. It was not my intention to raise the issue of bullying in the workplace, but I will follow on from the points raised. There is a prevalence of bullying and, as a former union official, I noticed it coming to the fore. My dad, who was also a union official, said it was not discussed much when he was on his tools. It is something that is more and more a feature of workplaces. How much of the authority's work is taken up with that issue? How does it react to reports of serious incidents in workplaces?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Bullying can have a devastating impact on individuals and their families and colleagues. It is a terrible thing and employers need to be very conscious of it with their workforce. We have done a lot of work in this area and, as Dr. Duff mentioned, we are getting a lot of interest in it. When we run a webinar, for instance, on psychosocial safety, hundreds of people attend who are very interested in how to address bullying. We are seeing an increasing level of awareness of the issue.

It is kind of an area that in the past people did not want to deal with or did not know how to deal with.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

It was probably more the case that they did not know how to deal with it.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes. We are seeing more of a buy-in, and the more work we do, the more interest there seems to be. We have a good pre-survey tool called Work Positive which is available for companies to download. It gives them a good sense of the psychosocial status in their organisations and pointers to where there might be issues. It will also help them to build a plan to try to deal with that. When they do that survey in conjunction with their employees, safety representatives, and health and safety teams, it can be very powerful in helping in these situations. We are doing a lot of work in this area and will be doing more and more as time goes on.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

What is the breakdown between the more traditional health and safety issues versus this issue, which we can safely call a non-traditional health and safety issue, although one that is very much part of the health and safety and welfare at work? I am not looking for a definite figure but rather Mr. O'Brien's sense on it.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I do not know. Dr. Adrienne Duff may wish to speak on this point.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

From 2022 in to 2023, we had more than 400 contacts through our contact centres specifically with regard to bullying. They could have been looking for information, pointing to resources or indeed making a complaint. We are doing a lot of activity in this area and there is a huge level of interest.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Yes, I would say there is. It is one of those things that maybe we did not talk about for a long time. There was probably a bit of stigma associated with it. Certainly from talking to my father, it was not the case that back in the eighties there was no bullying going on in the workplace. That is not the case. There just was nowhere to report it and a culture whereby people were expected to toughen up and they would be grand. I had another question but I wanted to speak on this issue because I have an interest on it.

In the opening statement, in point 22, reference was made to structures and work processes having undergone a significant transformation. That is 100% right. The world of work does not look like the world of work when I started or when anyone else in this room started. Some of it is good and some it clearly is not but I am delighted to see that it has been referenced because it is something I speak about myself. Will the witnesses talk a bit about the changes in the world of work that have brought in to being new workplace hazards? What are the hazards the HSA has identified? What can we, as legislators, do to strengthen protection for workers in this regard? I am aware the HSA has published its joint guidance to assist employers to manage the risk of exposure to sensitive content. This is an issue in which I have taken a particular interest and campaigned on and on which the committee had hearings. How is the psychoclinical risk assessment document progressing? How is the HSA investigating in this area specifically? Notwithstanding the document, which is good, do the witnesses feel there is a need for regulation in primary law or is there enough? I am talking specifically about protecting workers in this new world and this new health and safety frontier.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I will start on the area of the new world of work and Dr. Duff will deal specifically with the issue of sensitive content.

The world of work is changing rapidly, even as we sit here. If I take artificial intelligence, for instance, there are massive changes under way. We all know that. Regardless of whether it is artificial intelligence or traditional technology, the responsibilities are still there. The Act still covers it. There needs to be a safe system of work and a risk assessment taken where artificial intelligence or any new facilities are used. I have seen, when I have been out on company inspections, an increase in the use of it. For example, robots were being trained to move large pieces of equipment from one part to another in a whiskey maturation plant. This is all very new and employers need to be really careful of this when they are considering the risks involved in it. We are also seeing it through our own work. For instance, out at construction sites, new technologies can start to be seen such as a worker holding up a camera to scan an area and the technology will automatically identify potential hazards and start to build a risk assessment in the background. It can be of huge benefit from a health and safety perspective but there are huge risks on the other side of it from a worker perspective.

There are other new areas of work that we are seeing. Solar panels were mentioned but there are also things like wind farms. A total of 40% of the country's electricity was generated through wind farms in March. There is a massive growth in that. Everything to do with wind farms is covered under our 2005 legislation and the 2013 construction regulations. Whether it is in the construction of the wind farm or the operation of the wind farm, all of those risks still need to be accounted for. In wind farms, given the size of the equipment being used and the working at heights involved, which is one of our key fatalities, the more that increases, the more the risk increases as well. Our work is changing and we have talked a lot about the psychosocial side of things and new technology. Our whole world is expanding, not just changing. We still need to account for all the traditional risks and hazards but we also need to account for these as well.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

For the new ones.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Yes, for the new ones.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

Specifically on guidance on sensitive content, as the Deputy knows, it was published in response to identifying psychosocial hazards for workers who are working or exposed to sensitive content-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Content moderators, effectively.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

----- online or indeed front-line workers as well. It is audiovisual and written sensitive content. This guidance was published last year and it has been well received. We have undertaken a targeted inspection programme to date which has been beneficial to raising awareness of the issues and pointing out what employers need to consider in risk assessments. We have also conducted two separate workshops with organisations and with staff working in clinical risk and general risk areas. It is a case of talking them through the guidance and how to approach a risk assessment for their staff.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Does Dr. Duff believe that additional protection is required for workers in this area? I know it is a very fast-moving and new area of work. Does Dr. Duff envisage we will need primary legislation or is there enough in the existing legislation to adapt to the kind of protection workers need in that space?

Dr. Adrienne Duff

The existing legislation provides for employers to identify all risks within the workplace. At the moment, the 2005 Act and the associated regulations are satisfactory. However, as Mr. O'Brien has said, this is continually evolving and changing and that needs to have an eye kept on it.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

New technology will help in this regard, too. AI might start blurring out very sensitive things that are not required to moderate content. We encourage employers to ensure this is structured well in terms of exposure to the content and that there are breaks for the people who are employed to moderate content and that they have the right qualifications and ability to do this. All of that becomes part of it as well.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is an area where legislation could come in to play, to be frank, because it is something that is happening. These big tech companies are outsourcing again and again and therefore, the people who do the work and are on the front line, and God love them because I would not do it, are very much at a remove from the people who maybe should be taking responsibility for it. There is scope to look at legislation.

An Cathaoirleach

Does any other member wish to come in?

Deputy David Stanton

It was mentioned at the start that the HSA is also involved in accreditation and market surveillance. Will the witnesses give the committee a brief idea of what is involved?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Ms Yvonne Mullooly will talk about market surveillance.

Ms Yvonne Mullooly

In market surveillance, our role is primarily implementing the requirements and standards that come from European law because we have the Single Market. Obviously, it is important for businesses in the Irish context to be able to bring their products to market.

As for the economic consequences, it is clear we need to have a level playing field. It is not just about the products that are produced by Irish manufacturers but also the products that are coming in to Ireland and other EU countries from outside and to check those. We have various ongoing activities in this space. For example, we look at various products in the chemicals area.

Different programmes are happening. We do most of that work in collaboration with other European countries. In other words, it is done across all countries. We might look at one particular product, and that will cover all the various countries. All the countries will look at determining the level of compliance. If there are issues with products, actions can be taken to correct them. It might be something low level and simple or it could be something significant where the product has to be recalled.

Deputy David Stanton

Is Ms Mullooly speaking about the safety of the products that are coming in, for instance? Is that the issue there?

Ms Yvonne Mullooly

Yes. The legislation prescribes the standards that will be expected to be met and that is what we will look at and taking-----

Deputy David Stanton

Can I ask about accreditation as well? What is involved in that?

Dr. Adrienne Duff

In 2014, the National Accreditation Service was incorporated into the functions of the Health and Safety Authority, HSA. The Irish National Accreditation Board, INAB, is the national accreditation service for Ireland. The function of INAB is to accredit organisations to International Organization for Standardization, ISO, standards. That would be through, for example, certification bodies or inspection bodies inspecting asbestos or testing laboratories. It has approximately 200 clients that are accredited across the range of ISO standards.

Deputy David Stanton

Can Dr. Duff comment on any issues the HSA has discovered or concerns it may have with respect to the whole space of offshore - fishing and shipping? I refer to the fishing industry and the shipping industry itself. We are now looking at offshore wind farms, which are also being developed.

Mr. Mark Cullen

I will take the question on offshore. Regarding renewable energy and offshore, many wind farms are being planned. We have engaged with the sector to carry out a number of inspections. As Mr. O’Brien said, there is the construction part of it and then there is the maintenance and running of it. We will have a role right through the lives of the offshore wind farms.

We have a role in fishing, which comes in under the agriculture and fishing sector. We do inspections in that area. We have a role in any place that is classified as a place of work under the 2005 Act, which is our primary legislation. It cuts across all sectors, and every place of work, and the area of fishing is one of them. We have a footprint there through inspections, but also with the information and guidance that is on our website.

Deputy David Stanton

Mr. Cullen says the HSA assists Irish industry in bringing goods to market. He spoke of the UK's departure from the EU and the conflict in Ukraine. What is the HSA’s role there?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

This is in relation to the Control of Major Accidents and Hazards, COMAH, legislation. Where large concentrations of dangerous chemicals are accumulated, we carry out regular inspections of those sites to make sure they fit in with the standards that are required. Brexit is driving the increase in that, primarily because people who want to avoid stock and supply issues are building up their supplies here. The same is the case with the war in Ukraine. That has driven up people's requirements to increase stock.

Deputy David Stanton

Is there any legislation pending or any legislation needed to assist the HSA in the work it is doing?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I am not aware of any legislation at the moment. The 2005 Act is very substantial and all the regulations that underpin that since have given us-----

Deputy David Stanton

I have a final question. What is the HSA's annual budget?

Dr. Kevin De Barra

Our annual budget from Exchequer funding is just over €30 million. We also have our own resource income, which is primarily from the accreditation service. Collectively, the annual budget is €34 million. Roughly two thirds of that is spent on pay-related costs and one third is spent on the running of the organisation’s expenses.

Deputy David Stanton

Mr. De Barra mentioned that there were a number of fines and penalties. Do they go to the HSA or the Exchequer?

Dr. Kevin De Barra

They do not come directly to us.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I have one final question in relation to the remote working environment. First, does the HSA have any information on whether potential cases are being taken against employers for occupational accidents where people are working remotely? What is the trajectory of that? Second, has the HSA produced any KPIs for workers themselves so they can understand this? If, for example, I am working from home and I have a broadband router upstairs but my printer is downstairs, and if I have to go up and down a steep, narrow set of stairs in an apartment complex and then I have a fall, is that my responsibility or does it fall back on the employer? I just want to understand where the employee comes into the environment in terms of understanding and assessing the risks in their own work areas?

Mr. Conor O'Brien

I am not aware of any complaints from a remote working perspective. In terms of the responsibility, in this case the responsibility would clearly lie with the employer. Yet, we ask employees to look after their own safety in this regard as well. We have some very good information on our website in relation to checklists and guidelines on remote working and how to set up a work environment. This covers areas such as ergonomics, desks, seating, etc. There is quite a bit of material there.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Recently enough, we have supported the rights of workers to request remote working, but it seems that this is being done in a way in which somebody can look for remote work in their home, but the onus potentially falls entirely on the employer to ensure the suitability of the premises. It would be helpful if the HSA could provide some information on how employees assess their own environment. Not every aspect of people working from home can fall back on the employer.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

The guidance we produced on remote working clearly outlines that employees also have responsibilities when it comes to remote working. They must ensure that the work environment does not change significantly and they must inform their employer if something does change with it as it may need to be reassessed in that regard. The guidance we published covers both employer and employee responsibilities.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

That is okay. As I said, it would be helpful to have clearer guidance on that. Many people, particularly in Dublin, are working in flat complexes, are walking up and down the stairs and are probably carrying boxes and computer peripherals and what have you as part of their work. Employers cannot be responsible for every single aspect of it.

An Cathaoirleach

As nobody else wishes to come in, I will come in at this point. I raise the issue of health services and issues that may go on. This may not be within the remit of the HSA, but it might deal with the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, and others. Yesterday, the nurses’ union spoke of how 4,000 nurses have been assaulted in the course of duty over the last number of years. Some hospitals are under massive pressure. I will not mention the hospital, but it is under pressure every single day and it is in the news almost every day. The staff that we, as elected representatives, meet there tell us that their working conditions are not safe. It is not safe for them and it is not safe for their patients. Does the HSA visit hospitals on a regular basis? Does it go there with HIQA? Does it go unannounced? What is the story there? The witnesses might come back to me on that, but I am particularly interested in the area of emergency departments.

Dr. Adrienne Duff

Yes, the authority inspects hospitals as part of the health and social care team. Our mandate is to inspect with regard to staff, occupational health and safety issues. We have no remit in the areas of overcrowding or in clinical care decisions, but as part of our inspection programme in 2023, we inspected more than 600 health and social care facilities. That included all the emergency departments last year. A proactive programme of inspections is planned for this year as well, which will cover health and social care facilities, including emergency departments.

An Cathaoirleach

If the HSA goes to an emergency department and nurses or unions tell it that there are problems, is it the case that it cannot make recommendations regarding overcrowding? Is that what Dr. Duff is saying?

Dr. Adrienne Duff

Our mandate allows us to inspect with regard to staff, occupational health and safety issues. We look for risk assessments from hospital facilities to see if they are undertaking appropriate risk assessments and putting in adequate measures and controls to protect their staff from health and safety concerns. We speak to staff on the ground as well. We validate those risk assessments and the training they have been provided in their role.

Mr. Conor O'Brien

Obviously, the HSA will take the complaints made by health workers. They can make complaints to us, and they will be dealt with in a confidential manner. That is a channel that is open to medical staff as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Without naming any specific emergency department, can the witnesses tell us what sort of health and safety issues are coming up, other than overcrowding?

Dr. Adrienne Duff

Generally speaking, the sort of issues we would see in emergency departments would relate to workplace violence and aggression, manual handling issues, storage facilities, infection control procedures and so on. They tend to be the main areas that we notice in emergency departments but also in other healthcare facilities.

An Cathaoirleach

How would the HSA work with HIQA on those? Would it go in with HIQA every now and again or go separately?

Dr. Adrienne Duff

No, they are not joint inspections.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I thank Dr. Duff. Is anybody else indicating? No. That concludes our consideration of the matter. I thank the representatives for assisting the committee in its consideration of this important matter. That concludes the committee's business in public session so I propose that it goes into private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 11 a.m. and adjourned at 11.17 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 May 2024.