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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 May 2024

Recent Developments in the EU on Security and Defence: Discussion

On behalf of the committee, I start this morning by welcoming Dr. Kenneth McDonagh, who is the head of the school of law and government at Dublin City University, DCU, and Professor Ben Tonra, from the school of politics and international relations at University College Dublin, UCD, to discuss the recent developments in the EU on security and defence. They are both very welcome. I thank them for joining us.

Before we begin our session, I note the instructions on privilege. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate if they do not adhere to this constitutional requirement.

We can now commence our session. I call Dr. McDonagh to start off proceedings. We will now hear his opening statement.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to speak to the committee on the subject of EU security and defence. It is a little over 12 months since I last spoke to the committee, when I focused on opportunities for Ireland to address its own security and defence capabilities gaps. Today, I would like to speak on three main points: the challenges facing Ukraine in responding to Russia’s ongoing aggression and the implications for European security and defence; new initiatives at an EU level to further co-ordinate defence production, procurement and research that have emerged since we last spoke; and the policy challenges facing Ireland in dealing with this new security environment.

First, I will speak on Russia's war in Ukraine. Over the past 12 months, Ukraine’s ability to defend itself has been under strain. In recent weeks, in addition to small gains in the south east, Russia has begun to reopen a front in the Kharkiv region. While this may be a feint or a tactical manoeuvre, it signals Russia’s willingness to test the resolve of Ukraine, Europe and Ukraine's other allies. To date, these allies have provided enough support for Ukraine to survive, but not sufficient support to win. This is a problem for the EU for a number of reasons.

First, the EU has made clear it supports a European future for Ukraine, but an occupied or partially-occupied Ukraine cannot become a member state. The recent announcement of a draft bilateral security agreement, which sits alongside a number of other bilateral security agreements between Kyiv and European capitals, is a further public statement of EU intent. It reportedly excludes direct military participation by EU member state forces in defence of Ukraine, but it signals a further commitment to Ukraine's ongoing security. The second issue for the EU is that the view of the Russian threat varies significantly among EU member states. For those who share a border and, in some cases, minority populations with Russia, the damage to EU credibility as a security provider if it fails in this case may be fatal. Third, Russia has demonstrated throughout this conflict that it is a rational calculating actor, which is willing to escalate and de-escalate in response to the level of resistance it experiences. An appeasement approach has been taken since 2008, when Russia occupied parts of Georgia and subsequently parts of Ukraine and we are reaping the rewards of this approach today. Were Russia to succeed in redrawing European borders through force, it would have a significant destabilising effect on both the region and the world and a red line would be crossed.

In responding to this, the EU has engaged in a number of new initiatives in security and defence. While Ukraine may need further support, even the limited support provided to date has exposed limits in Europe’s defence production capacity. In response, the EU has attempted to move further than ever before in co-ordinating defence production, development and procurement in a more centralised manner. I apologise for the upcoming acronym tsunami that is about to come. First, through the European defence industry reinforcement through common procurement Act, EDIRPA, and the Act in Support of Ammunition Production, ASAP, which provide EU level supports to offset the risks of joint procurement and development and to co-ordinate the procurement of munitions. More recently, it has launched the European Defence Industrial Strategy, EDIS and the European Defence Industry Programme, EDIP. There is an initial fund of €1.5 billion for the programme until 2027. The purpose of the strategy and programme is to enhance the European defence technological and industrial base, to increase European capabilities and, in particular, to reduce reliance on external suppliers and customers and the geopolitical risk this entails during times of crisis.

A number of caveats need to be highlighted regarding how dramatic an impact these initiatives will have. The first is the low level of funding. A sum of €1.5 billion over three years across the entire EU is a small, in defence spending terms. That figure is unlikely to significantly shift the dial on European capabilities. For this reason, some European states are arguing for common European financing, either through mutually-raised debt or through future funding cycles. However, some member states remain sceptical, including Ireland due to concerns around neutrality, and Germany which has been reluctant to engage in common borrowing across a number of policy areas. Second, member states have different interests in defence industry policy, whether it is to protect domestic producers or to avoid over dependence on a reduced number of suppliers. That creates friction in co-ordinating procurement, research and development. Third, I highlight the failure of these initiatives to involve the UK. Brexit meant that the EU lost significant military capability and any credible approach to European autonomy in security and defence needs to rebuild the link to British defence capabilities.

Finally, one of the push factors driving the EU’s drive for greater self-reliance, the potential for a less reliable partner in the US, may paradoxically encourage some states to continue, and even increase, their purchase of US weapons systems. The first Trump administration demonstrated the President’s transactional approach to foreign policy. Being a good customer to the US defence industry will likely outweigh any normative commitments in a second Trump White House. However, even if the impact of the EDIS is limited in terms of developing EU military capability, it signals a direction of travel and is working in the same direction as initiatives within NATO and national levels among member states. They indicate an increased level of investment in European security and defence, which reflects the changed threat environment. It is in this context that Ireland needs to consider its position.

Ireland, of course, has not been immune to this increased attention to security and defence. To date, Ireland has also been an active participant in EU battle groups and military CSDP missions, which have, with one exception, operated under UN mandates compatible with the triple lock approach to deployment. However, the geo-strategic location of Ireland, in particular its central role regarding communications networks, has brought more external focus on our lack of capabilities. These gaps are well documented and the Government has committed to achieving level of ambition 2 at least, as identified by the Commission on the Defence Forces. The reality is Ireland has significant choices to make on its own security and defence. The lack of a published national security strategy and associated review process to help frame the political debate around these choices is really regrettable.

Ireland has a number of gaps in capabilities and needs to decide how those gaps might be addressed. Greater integration in EU security and defence initiatives, including those outlined above but also PESCO, in particular, is one potential avenue, which we have begun to explore. Closer co-operation with NATO though an enhanced partnership agreement is another. Again, steps have been taken by Government to move forward on this. A third is to examine more bilateral or mini-lateral arrangements with like-minded states or states with whom we share a common border. There are examples of how these work in central Europe where the Visegrad countries have agreed to provide for Slovakia’s air defence while it transitions to F-16s, and in the Benelux countries, where the Netherlands and Belgium operate a joint rapid air response capability.

In conclusion, these are, unfortunately, challenging times for the security of small states like Ireland and for the security of Europe. We need to take steps to protect our interests and, as a small state, these steps will likely need to be with partners. How deep those partnerships go and with whom they should be is a vital political question that needs urgent attention.

I thank Dr. McDonagh. I now invite Professor Tonra to make his opening statement.

Professor Ben Tonra

I thank the committee for the invitation to present today. I provided a more detailed written submission and will speak to it for three or four minutes to give the committee an overview.

The first point I want to get across is that sometimes it is difficult for Irish policymakers and the Irish public to get a sense of the psychological shock of what has happened in terms of Europe. Two revolutions have occurred in the past couple of years. The first revolution is that Russia's behaviour has upended decades of assumptions about European security and defence, in terms of treaties, norms and the UN. That can be seen in the fact that the German Chancellor and the French President, for example, were totally shocked and turned around by what happened. They really did not expect it. That is the first revolution.

The second revolution is with respect to NATO. We look at a situation with a second Trump Administration in which NATO, as traditionally understood, simply will not be there. The evidence is blindingly clear. During his first Administration, Trump was restrained, largely by his advisers, senior cabinet ministers and some of his military advisers. Those so-called adults in the room are not going to be there. He is going to be unleashed. It is clear what his agenda is, not only in respect of NATO, but most of the security alliances of the US. There has been legislation passed in the US Congress that makes it illegal for him to formally withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty without congressional approval. That does not matter, however, because the North Atlantic Treaty itself is so permissive that it allows a US President simply to sit on his hands in the event of a NATO crisis. That is now well understood in most European capitals.

Those two revolutions in thinking have upended all of our assumptions about European security. I genuinely do not know that that is well understood. That leads to European governments being left to desperately search for solutions and responses. We have seen the scale of those changes in recent years, not just Finland and Sweden going from neutrality to NATO, but the fact that Germany, for example, now posts its own troops in Lithuania to defend Lithuania. That is the first time in Germany's post-war history that it has stationed troops overseas in that kind of capacity. European member states are desperately in search of solutions.

The European Union has come into the frame on this. Traditionally the European Union presented itself as a new kind of global actor that did not have defence or a military and did not pursue that kind of international agenda. It could use money, diplomacy or influence. Post the Rwandan genocide and the wars in the former Balkans, the EU began very slowly and with huge difficulty to engage in the potential use of military forces overseas in support of peacekeeping, etc. What has happened in the past two years has totally supercharged that agenda. The European Union is now applying the kinds of innovative legal and financial practices it did for Covid. This is seen as that level of existential crisis as far as the European Union is concerned. Dr. McDonagh has already mentioned some of those institutions and processes and he is right to say that the resources devoted to those are not of a scale that will make a decisive difference. The principle of what the European Union is doing, however, is unprecedented. It is unwelcome because of the situation, but it is also unprecedented.

In that context, this is where I come to the Irish policy responses and what we need to be thinking about. Ireland has traditionally participated in all of those EU defence security and military operations at the lowest possible level, with the greatest degree of reluctance and just enough to stay in the room. In other words, we have not formally opted out of anything. We have participated in everything but only to the barest degree necessary. That now is being reflected similarly in all of these new institutions and programmes. We are aware of the reservation, for example, that the Government exercises with respect to the European Peace Facility and the European Defence Fund. I will make two points to the committee in that regard. First, there is a cost to that. Irish industries, universities and researchers are not competing on the same level as their European counterparts in these new European programmes and for this new European money. There may be a very good policy reason behind that but it has not been discussed or publicised and it is something we need to think about because there are costs. They may be costs the State wishes to pay in terms of not participating fully in all of these programmes and putting Irish participants on an equal basis, but we should have the conversation and make that decision formally, rather than letting it happen by default.

The second issue for Irish policymakers is perhaps more serious and relates to Ireland's position in Europe. I do not think anyone in the European Union questions Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality. There is an issue coming down the road, however, and that is what Ireland will do if what Russia is attempting to do in Ukraine is successful. What will Ireland do if that success is translated to Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia, for example? We should bear in mind that the language Putin has used to justify his invasion of Ukraine, saying that it is not a proper country, its sovereignty is illegitimate, it is full of Nazis and it was oppressing Russian-speaking minorities, is precisely the argument he has been making about several Baltic states. If Russia is successful or seen to be successful with regard to Ukraine, what will Russia's policy be towards the Baltic states? What will its question to us be with respect to that? We have a clear red line with respect to Ukraine, which is that we do not supply lethal military equipment. Not only do we not supply it, but we will not fund it alongside other EU member states, which is absolutely fine. Does that red line also apply to our European partners, however? That is a question that, unfortunately, we might face sooner rather than later.

I thank our guests for their opening statements. The first member to indicate was Deputy Ó Murchú.

I just want to indicate that I will have to leave the meeting to speak in the Dáil on a Labour Party Private Members' motion. I ask the Cathaoirleach and our guests to forgive me for that.

Will the Deputy have to leave shortly?

As soon as I can.

Perhaps Deputy Ó Murchú will-----

I, too, will have to leave to speak in the Dáil.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

We will not take it personally.

It is unusual enough to have Labour Party Private Members' Business taking place.

Perhaps we will have two short contributions.

I have done nothing short in my life. I thank Dr. McDonagh and Professor Tonra for coming in. They have dealt with the issue of Ireland's neutrality and our independent foreign policy. It would be difficult to get movement on that. Whatever future questions are asked, the slaughter in Palestine has created greater difficulties to a degree. Obviously, what the Russians have done is part of a game they have been at for a long time. It is old-style imperialism. The western world's show of solidarity and it being absolutely sound in respect of that circumstance is not what the Palestinians have experienced, however, and that creates a credibility issue. Alongside that, Professor Tonra referred to the wider credibility issue for the European Union if Russia wins. I know that winning does not always look like it does in the films. I do not see Irish people seeking to move from that. I think we all accept we have a capability issue and realise we are a major communications hub. I accept that no matter what we do, there will always be a need for co-operation, whatever that may look like.

What do the witnesses believe Ukraine would need in order to win? The point was made that the aid provided by the West has given the Ukraine sufficient capacity to stay in the game but not to win. It is trying to win against a nuclear power that is bigger and can always do that next thing. I am not sure where it is going to go. Dr. McDonagh referred to the idea of a European military industrial complex and the fact that a shape and structure is being put on that. I ask the witnesses to expand on that point. Russia has been playing games all over the world. We have seen what has happened in Georgia lately. What is their view on that point?

Dr. McDonagh said something interesting. I would have said that Trump will engage in isolationism across the board, as Professor Tonra stated, but Dr. McDonagh is of the view that Trump is so transactional that if somebody engages with him in the context of American business, all bets are on, rather than off.

I am curious as to how that happens. On the Baltic states, I accept it is almost like the Sudeten German issue. I also accept we could have different questions to ask in the future but it is hard to ask a question before being in that situation. I refer to what I said previously around the credibility issue. Anyway, sin sin. We are not quite sure where this is going to end.

I thank the Deputy. I do not know who wants to kick off first. Let us start with Professor Tonra.

Professor Ben Tonra

The Deputy's question on how much is enough in regard to support for Ukraine is very well taken. A fascinating dance can be seen going on between some prime ministers who say they want Ukraine to win and others who say they will be alongside Ukraine for as long as it takes. There is an interesting psychology going on there. The Deputy's point about nuclear blackmail is absolutely well taken but by the same token, does that mean that no nuclear power can ever be confronted with the reality of its own mistakes? The Deputy is right, in that it is part of a Russian strategy which we have seen in Georgia and Moldova and which we could very well see play out in the Baltics. The scenarios are so blindingly obvious it is quite terrifying. When talking to people, as I am sure Dr. McDonagh also has, who know Russia, Russian politics and Russian foreign policy, the issue is deterrents. If Russia sees a serious block to its ambitions, it does back off. The problem has been that European governments have been so quick to take things off the table by saying they are not going to do this, that or the other, that Russia has said all right, let us push a little further. The analysis from Russian policy experts is that to deter Russia, complete solidarity has to be shown and Russia has to be shown that there are costs associated with the actions it is going to take. I will leave it to Dr. McDonagh to do the other ones.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

I will just add air power to that, which is the obvious one from a military-technological point of view but I agree with Professor Tonra that it is about shifting the cost calculation. What Russia is testing at the moment is what level of cost is it going to inflict on Ukraine to achieve its objectives and how much is it willing to bear. At the moment, it is showing surprising resilience. Many people were not expecting Russia to do quite so well, particularly on upping its own military production and sourcing from North Korea, Iran and elsewhere to increase its stockpiles. Therefore, we need to shift that calculation back. The fact that it is opening a second front indicates it feels there is an opportunity now while there is a gap between the delayed support of the US coming in and Ukraine's ability to respond to that. I also will highlight Professor Tonra's point that there are different positions among member states between those that are willing to keep this going for as long as possible versus states that view the threat very differently and think that some kind of decisive victory for Ukraine is necessary. What that would look like is a restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity along international borders.

Okay. I will go to Deputy Howlin.

I thank both gentleman for the stimulating and interesting papers that will help our general discussions. I wish to ask four questions, if I may. As for the witnesses' last response, I do not think Ireland is a player in terms of determining what the outcome is. As we are commentators to it, my first question is for both witnesses, particularly Professor Tonra, who has really underscored the notion that something very fundamental has happened. Professor Tonra used the word "earthquake" in terms of the paradigm shift and talked about the EU's previous existence in a false paradise. Is it then his contention that Ireland is still in that false paradise zone? I would be interested to hear both the witnesses' views in terms of the impact they have spelled out, because we all listen at COSAC and other meetings about a very significant shift towards military industrial capacity within the European Union, and how Ireland might be affected by that, including in dual use in the technology we have and so on and how that might impact on us if we are excluded from that. On the comment made by Professor Tonra that there is little or no political enthusiasm for a change in our defence pose, I was interested in hearing Deputy Ó Murchú as a Sinn Féin representative talking about how until it happens, and if there is actually a real attack on an EU member state, we would have to think about that again. That is an interesting perspective.

My second question is the role of the UK in all of this. As a non-member of the EU now, how do our guests see them being involved in this security commonality within the EU? My third question concerns the attitude on the concept of European defence held by the eastern EU member states. It is very clear from all of the ambassadors we have had before the committee that they are frightened by the prospect of an overt decoupling of Europe from the American shield. Even the prospect of Mr. Trump does not seem to dislodge them from that view and I would be interested in the witnesses' take on that and how that might pan out. My fourth and final question is on the witnesses' discussion of the paradigm shift involving enormous expenditure of money, that there is no legal capacity to spend on defence within the treaties currently, and Commissioner Breton's view that we would float a bond. We had, however, the President of the European Court of Auditors give stark and alarming evidence of the degree of debt that the European Union, post Covid, has already amounted and attached to itself. I wonder - I say this with the scars of experience in terms of debt - how Germany in particular is currently viewing the notion that we would pile debt on the European Union member states to address the defence issues discussed..

We will start in the opposite order, so we will kick off with Dr. McDonagh and then transfer over whenever he is ready.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

I thank the Cathaoirleach. Starting with the eastern member states or, as I am sure they pointed out to you when they were here, the central European member states-----

The eastern members of the Union.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

I have always told them that from Ireland, everything is eastern and that is how I get away with that. The Deputy is right in that the eastern member states very much see the transatlantic alliance as the core and foundation of their security, largely because they can count and can see what the capabilities are and what would be lost were the US to be outside of that and that stands even with Trump. This goes back to the point that Deputy Ó Murchú had raised that Trump is transactional. He can essentially be bribed or it can be made worth his while in terms of weapons orders for the US defence industry and perhaps even direct transactions and things like that. In some ways, his lack of principles means that it can be managed and there is not much uncertainty when it comes to the fundamentals of the security issue. Moreover, it reflects the paucity of capabilities in an EU context. This ties back to the role the UK plays because those member states see the UK as an essential partner when it comes to their defence and argue very strongly for the incorporation of the UK in many of these initiatives, particularly working through NATO.

On the issue of debt, the Deputy is correct that Germany is one of the states that is strongly resistant to the idea of defence bonds and generating EU debt on this. The trade-off for that and as Professor Tonra pointed out, there are costs to not taking action and not putting those institutional financial supports in place and its a question for member states as to where the balance stands in their decisions in relation to those costs. Very quickly on Ireland then, a false paradise zone is a nice way of putting it. Deputy Howlin is right that we are not going to determine the outcome of the conflict in Ukraine and we are not going to determine the future of European security and defence but we should take some steps to determine our own security and defence. These initiatives, though they may not deliver everything that the EU needs or perhaps wants, will provide structures that will allow Ireland to start to achieve and build up its own capabilities and capacities to address the threats that we face.

Professor Ben Tonra

I have one supplemental on the central eastern European question. Trump is transactional but that means he is transactional in all directions. In other words, if what he gets on the table from one party exceeds what he is getting from another party, he will shift. There is no principle there and there is nothing to rely on and that is what NATO has been built on because the NATO treaty itself is so weak. It relies on political credibility and resilience and if that is absent, then frankly NATO is no longer able to do the job that it was set up to do. On Ireland and the false paradise, in my written statement I was being polite but the short answer is absolutely "Yes" and that is a function of geography. It is a function of our history, of psychology and there are very good reasons for that but it is something that needs to be confronted and at least talked about and discussed.

That is the scale to which we are somewhat disconnected from the sense of urgency and threat that many of our EU partners feel. With respect to the military industrial complex, the Deputy is right. It is not a welcome development, but it is an inevitable development in the context in which we find ourselves and Ireland needs to situate itself within that. Yes, Ireland does not have military capacity that it can provide to Ukraine, but we do have 12 javelin missiles. We do have the ammunition that Ukraine requires. Although it would not make any kind of significant contribution, the psychology of Ireland saying to Ukraine that we think this is so important we are willing to do this would actually be enormous. I refer to that role of commentary and of doing something very small but which would have huge political impact and significance. It would make a difference, I think. Again, the political decisions in terms of the programme for Government are what they are.

Finally, on the UK, I think that is a really big issue. The various capitals are really struggling with it. We have this new formulation, the so-called European political committee, or community. I know the acronym but I do not know how to spell it out. It has not taken off. It is not working. It is one of Macron's big ideas, and he has so many big ideas it is hard to keep track. It has not taken off but it does need to happen. To be frank, it is only post the UK general election that we are going to see some serious traction and progress. I think the progress in that respect will be quite quick post UK general election. I think I have covered the points.

I thank the witness.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations, sobering as they are. Certainly, security and defence issues are rising to the top of the EU agenda. We have found that as a committee in our visits to Brussels and also at the Conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs of Parliaments of the European Union, COSAC, meetings. There has been a very definite shift in emphasis towards security and defence issues. There is no doubt that Ukraine has changed everything. I fully accept that. It is important that we support Ukraine for as long as it takes. I will opt for that option. I did not realise there was a difference between until Ukraine wins or for as long as it takes but apparently there is. Initially, the EU was a peace project set up after the Second World War. I see the change coming because of the war in Ukraine and the need to re-evaluate.

A couple of questions, first on the consultative forum on international security policy, which reported last year. We have a new definition of Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality where it came up with the proposal that we are politically aligned and militarily non-aligned. Arising from that, there were moves to discard the triple lock. Does the professor think that forum did anything to help in the debate he says we need to have? I agree with him on that. I am not sure the forum gave much attention to EU matters, which is what we are discussing today. I would be interested in his take on that.

If I can bring him back to the role of the UK again, what arrangements are in place at the moment for EU-UK security and defence co-operation, if any? I refer to this famous deal with the RAF, namely, the long-standing arrangement to monitor Irish skies for suspicious aircraft going back to 1952. What do we know about that? The Minister for Defence, Deputy Micheál Martin, is not giving any detail of that. What does that say?

We ask everybody this question so do not feel picked on.

The broader question is EU-UK co-operation. On the question of developing the European defence industrial base, this has come as a bit of a surprise to me. I do think we are moving in that direction but it seems to be quite advanced. What role will Ireland play in that regard, if any? Are there companies lining up in this State to actively get involved? The term "dual use" was used. I would be interested to hear more about how Ireland may or may not be involved in ramping up the European defence industrial base.

Should small states not just do what they are good at? Peacekeeping has been our thing, through the United Nations and so forth. I presume the EU still has a role in relation to peacekeeping. That is extremely important, namely, the promotion of fundamental human rights and all of that. I do not think we should forget about that in the context of all this debate. It is important and it certainly was articulated at the consultative forum.

As a final question, many European Union states still look to NATO to defend them. NATO could be in trouble, depending on what happens in the United States. Is there any scope for NATO reforming itself in the event the United States disengages? Can these European members, for example, beef it up and still make it relevant for their security and defence needs if America decides to pull away altogether?

Professor Ben Tonra

I will take the one on the consultative forum first. I was a bit disappointed, frankly, with the consultative forum. It did a fine job of work in terms of raising public attention, raising public awareness and having those big public meetings. The report stated a lot of things that we knew were already there and in place. The forum, in raising the question about the triple lock, has put something onto the political agenda which is now being dealt with and will play out as it needs to. However, there is a much bigger job of work to be done.

The Deputy said he is confronting these issues and hearing about them at a European level and I just do not know if that is being translated back down into public conversation and debate. This leads again, in response to Deputy Howlin's point, to living in a false paradise and not really understanding the scale of what is happening. That needs to be addressed.

On the European industrial base, I feel I should make a declaration of interest. I have been volunteering for a number of years in setting up an industry association precisely in this area, the Irish Defence and Security Association. It is a big issue. It is reflective of my earlier comments about Ireland's traditional engagement in European security and defence. We have done just enough to stay in the room but not really try to put into it or take anything out of it. There is an issue there, particularly for Irish companies, Irish universities and Irish researchers. Irish researchers are being cut out of competitions. Irish companies are being cut out of opportunities, because there is not the level of State support and engagement that other countries are providing their equivalents in their countries' industries like photovoltaics, robotics and biohazards. There are Irish companies in that space, which are referred to as dual use, and they are effectively cut out of a lot of these European programmes.

Again, there may be perfectly legitimate policy reasons for doing that on the basis of Ireland's traditional military neutrality, but it would be useful if that was actually addressed front and centre, saying we are going to contribute to these things but we are not going to try to take anything out of it because of our public policy reasons. We are in this bizarre little grey zone where we say we are participating and yet we hobble those companies and those universities that are trying to engage. We have had universities cut out of consortia. We have had Irish researchers not able to serve on expert committees because we do not have a system for national security clearance. We do not have support from some of the State agencies in this area. This is self-interest because I am involved on a voluntary basis with that association but it is a policy issue that needs to be addressed.

Finally, with respect to the memorandum of understanding, MoU, as soon as the Deputy finds out, I would love to hear.

Is that the RAF thing?

Yes. Dr. McDonagh, is there an opinion on anything additional?

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

That it had to be clarified which MoU raises other questions for the committee. I would agree with Professor Tonra. To start with whatever it is with the UK and the RAF, I do think it is concerning that we have something as vital to our security and defence in this constant state of ambiguity. If we do have an arrangement, it should be subject to normal democratic scrutiny and debate. If we do not, that should be known as well. In some ways, it is a matter of politeness because frankly, we could not do anything about the UK coming into our airspace.

On the arrangements with the UK and EU security, Professor Tonra has already mentioned the European political community. I am old enough to remember the European Intervention Initiative, EI2. That was the previous French idea for hooking the UK in after Brexit.

It shows there is a question, but it is really too late. That is where European countries see that co-operation continuing.

That brings me back to the question about the future of NATO. In real terms NATO will cease to function if the US actually withdraws. However, what might happen is there could be some ways in which NATO institutions and mechanisms could continue to be used by European partners and perhaps used in the interim period before the US pulls out. There is a case where almost a zombie NATO or a NATO that operates for the benefit of Europe without having the insurance of the US exists. That would make it a much less credible deterrent for Russia, even though those mechanisms might be useful.

I participated in the consultative forum. I was a contributor on EU matters at one session and I chaired one which dealt with our partnerships with NATO. I share Professor Tonra's disappointment at the outcome. It very quickly became distracted with high ideas about Ireland's strategic position. The debate on the triple-lock mechanism has taken a slightly surreal turn where those opposed to removing the triple lock are asking where we want to deploy Irish troops, as though that is a capability we have. We had to withdraw from the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, UNDOF, in order to meet our commitments to the German-led EU battle group. I would have much preferred if the consultative forum had started with mainstreaming the ideas about the changed threat environment in which Ireland is operating and then dealt with what are the pragmatic choices, that is, what we can do, what are the options and what are the costs of taking or not taking a particular set of options. We have had this slightly surreal idea - going back to the idea of a false paradise - that we can just state our policy and there will be no political, economic or security consequences of adopting the positions we have.

I go back to the idea of the EU as a peace project. Deputy Haughey is right. When the EU was founded, there were live and active debates around security and defence. There was the proposed European defence community, which fell by the wayside, the hiving off of issues around nuclear security to the western European Union and the 1949 foundation of NATO. The EU evolved as something focused on economic co-operation and normative values, but it was underpinned by a stable security situation. The transformation or revolution Professor Tonra alluded to in his opening statement is what we are dealing with now. What does the EU look like when that security situation is, at the very least, less stable than it was?

I thank the Chair for facilitating my attendance. I welcome the guests and thank them for their comprehensive opening statements.

I asked the Tánaiste to address this first issue yesterday. The Government has given an undertaking that the Department of Foreign Affairs will set out a briefing document for Members of the Oireachtas on what Irish neutrality is. We have never had it defined in the 102 or so years the State has been around. We frequently hear it said that Ireland is politically neutral or militarily neutral and non-aligned. We fail to understand these are opposite poles when it comes to discussing things. Would either of the witnesses care to try to define Irish neutrality, or Paddy neutrality as I frequently refer to it? It is becoming quite embarrassing when we travel overseas. I recently attended a conference in Bruges on foreign affairs and defence involving the 27 member states. At that conference during sidebar conversations, the issue of Ireland's neutrality was in some cases regarded as the butt of a joke and in more cases as a serious threat to the western flank of Europe. Do the witnesses have anything to say on that?

I disagree with Dr. McDonagh insofar as I think the forum organised by the Tánaiste was quite brave because it kicked topics into the public domain that for years had been suppressed. It did not achieve what it set out to do, but it started the conversation and we needed to start it.

That brings me on to the Defence Forces. In this illustrious establishment, when people talk about the Defence Forces, they categorise them into one of two categories. One is the local authority corporation that deals with bus strikes, collects bins, cleans the snow off the footpaths, are lovely guys in uniform any time a new ambassador arrives in the country and the only role they have in the world is peacekeeping. We fail to take cognisance of the fact that our explosive ordnance disposal, EOD, people are out once if not twice a week and of the several other mandatory statutory tasks and objectives the Defence Forces have. Speaking to two guys in civvies, there is an onus on all of us to get into the public domain what we do, what our Defence Forces are there for. They are greatly misunderstood.

On the lack of an intelligence service in Ireland, An Garda Síochána is double-hatted with some intelligence duties and normal policing. Do the witnesses see the lack of an intelligence service similar to the CIA, MI5 or MI6 as limiting? They spoke about how we can attend various committees in Europe and elsewhere, but there is a point at which we are no longer required in the room or, if we are in the room, we have no direct input. Is the lack of an intelligence agency in some way hampering Ireland's position?

The Atlantic Ocean carries massive assets for Europe, and many of them pass through our economic zone. It is as plain as the nose on my face that we are incapable of patrolling that area. Even if all nine ships were at sea, we still could not cover the level of the Atlantic Ocean that is necessary. I proposed at that meeting in Bruges the establishment of a European Atlantic fleet, outside NATO, that would have arrest capacity anywhere in Europe. The only caveat would be that an arrested ship would be landed at the nearest port, wherever that might be. Conceivably, a German ship could arrest a ship in Irish waters and have to escort it to Ireland for whatever action to be taken. We are not necessarily talking about military ships. We are talking about drugs, people trafficking and such things. Do the witnesses see that as something that might fly? It certainly flew in Bruges when I spoke about it.

I could not possibly discuss memorandums of understanding, MOUs. I am up to my neck in that at the moment. When that is over we will chat about it.

The witnesses spoke about research. There is research into military equipment in Carlow, for example. There is a lack of a centralised research agency. We discussed this yesterday in respect of cybersecurity. A great deal of cyber research is going on in the country, but there is no statutory body with oversight of it, which all these research agencies would feed into in order for us to have a co-ordinated approach to all research. Could we pull in military and cyber research under the guise of a central research body? How would that improve things? I am sorry I am throwing a lot at the witnesses, but I want to try to get in as much as I can.

Currently, Ireland cannot be a member of NATO for a number of reasons, not least that there is neither political nor public will to be. However, the North Atlantic is opening up. Climate change will bring new shipping pathways into the north of Europe and it would be in our strategic interest to ensure that passageway is protected. It has already been established that there is a joint expeditionary post. From the somewhat limited definition of our neutrality, would the witnesses see joining an expeditionary force as being anathema to any notion of neutrality?

I am coming to an end. The attack on a European partner was mentioned. I have been over and back to Estonia a number of times on cyber programmes and bringing delegations there. One of the things I notice when I arrive in Tallinn is the number of military uniforms from all over Europe, including the UK. The UK may be outside the EU but it is not outside NATO so its pilots can be found, for example. I was with the Royal Dragoons a number of weeks ago.

They are heading to Estonia for a six-month posting very soon. It will be a huge game-changer if there is an attack on European soil from a member state. Leaving aside everything else, do we have an obligation to our partners in Europe to support them?

My last question is, in the area of weaponry ammunition, I agree totally with the witness with respect to the weapons and ammunition we have. It would be a token gesture. Some of them are at the end of their life cycle and in fact it would be cheaper to have them shot at Russians than to have them destroyed. I just do not understand why we do not hand them over. If we are dealing with the US, there is a standardised system so there is a standard number of weapons, helicopters, aircraft and ammunition. Within Europe we have a mishmash, as was rightly pointed out. Different countries have different priorities. Will that limit the capacity to support Ukraine where, for example, the same rifle ammunition cannot be got? Someone might be using 7.62 mm and I might be using 5.5 mm or 3.03 mm or whatever. Will that be a problem for Europe? The establishment of a defence commissioner might resolve some of those problems.

I am sorry, that is a lot of stuff. I will leave it at that. The witnesses may be getting an invitation to come back from the Chair of the Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence. It is very good to have these people here and we might bring them over to attend at our committee.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

There are such a shortage of questions there to answer. Professor Tonra has indicated to start, so the rest can work it out between them.

Professor Ben Tonra

I will take the top and tail of those questions. In terms of the tail, interoperability is not the issue. NATO has set the standards across Europe and those are the standards all NATO states work to. Those are the standards to which Ukraine works to and indeed the standard Ireland operates to through NATO's Partnership for Peace, so that is not an issue any longer. Therefore, of all of the Irish ammunition, what we could send could be used if we chose to send it and the only reason we do not send it is due to a line in the programme for Government.

With respect to neutrality, if there is one document I would look forward to more than the MOU on the RAF it would be the Department of Foreign Affairs document on neutrality that is coming out, as the Senator told me now. Let us start with first principles. Neutrality is not taking sides in other people's disputes. It is the moral equivalent of walking past a burning building and saying, "That's not my problem." Ireland has been neutral once, during the Second World War, where we did not take sides in that dispute. We could have a whole other conversation about what we did and did not do and what it really meant but formally we were neutral, just like Sweden. Sweden's neutrality was compromised as well, but it was neutral.

Since the Second World War, however, Ireland has never been politically neutral on anything, and I am glad of that. Ireland has taken a position. It has applied its values and its interests to whatever dispute and international controversy. Ireland has always taken a position and it is to the credit of Irish foreign policy makers through the decades that it always has. Forgive me, but the consultative forum did not invent the notion of political alignment and military neutrality.

The definition of neutrality then is the problem because what we have in this country is a debate about people who do not agree on the definition they are talking about. This to my experience, as recently as last night, results in people shouting at one another about neutrality when they are talking about something completely different. The Government, and this is not just this Government but all Irish governments stretching back, has traditionally defined Irish military neutrality as non-membership of a security alliance. I am very sorry to say that is nobody else's definition of neutrality - nobody's - because that is not the status of being neutral. Using that rubric the People's Republic of China is neutral. It is not. Therefore, that is the Government's definition.

Those who are very passionate about neutrality put a lot of other things on top of that. They talk about an anti-colonial policy, an anti-imperial policy, a pro-peace policy, a pro-stability and a pro-development policy, but none of those things are about neutrality. In fact, they are the antithesis of neutrality because they are about taking sides and deciding who the bad guys and the good guys are. That is not neutrality. Again, there is a dialogue of people shouting at each other about a definition which does not apply.

I will make a prediction. What we will see from the Department of Foreign Affairs will be a document that will centre on non-membership of a security alliance and then add all of the bells and whistles in the world. It will be like a Christmas tree. Our neutrality means we are good people and we provide development aid. We are promoters of human rights and gender rights, and are in favour of peace and peacemaking, and we are in favour and in favour and in favour. None of that has anything to do with neutrality bar one issue, and Senator Craughwell can ask me about it. He can pick any of those issues, any of those Christmas lights, that the Department of Foreign Affairs will put on its memorandum to him. Take any one of those Christmas lights and I will find a NATO member state that does it more and does it better, whether it is development, peacekeeping, human rights, gender rights, global justice, diplomacy, etc. We have convinced ourselves that Irish neutrality is a thing but it is nobody else's thing and it is not neutrality.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

How will I follow that? Maybe to pick up on the point of neutrality, Professor Tonra has summarised it quite well. It is not a definition of neutrality we need. The question I always ask and we need to ask is what neutrality does in the context of the political debate. It is something that has moved in an Irish context into the realm of an identity and a value rather than something that is a rational assessment of a set of policy options. That is why the debate quickly becomes heated and very little light gets shed on it.

In that context, that was the disappointment I had with the consultative forum. I want to clarify that I did think it was a great idea to have it and that is why I participated in it, but it was the outcome it descended into. Given that the panel I was on was about NATO partnership, we had a serving Irish naval officer who was seconded to NATO, we had someone from NATO, and we had another academic. However, it quickly became a shouting match about things that had nothing to do with anything on the panel instead of asking what our partnership with NATO means, what does Ireland get out of it, what does NATO get out of it, could we move further, should we step away from it and that kind of positive discussion. That was because we were bringing facts to a values fight, for the want of a better term. Approaching that question will be very tricky, as we saw with our near neighbour. When values are on the table, facts can sometimes be much more malleable or much more manipulated than they are elsewhere.

On the point about the intelligence services, I think it is a real issue. Professor Tonra already alluded to the questions around security clearance. That is for officials or for those in the private and academic sectors. It is a barrier but it is also a case of prudence on the part of the State. We have friends and they are good friends and we like them but there is no harm in having a capability to verify certain things because those friends have interests as well and they might not always fully align with our own interests. Again, we have seen that in our recent relations with a close neighbour post Brexit. We have seen points of clash where we might want to be wary of what things might roll over into other issue areas such as security. It is a major gap.

The third part of that is the democratic oversight piece. We need to have intelligence gathering, we need to have informed security decision-making and we need to have opportunities for people from Opposition parties, perhaps in closed meetings of committees such as this, to interrogate that and ask if we are making real decisions based on good evidence or if this evidence is being skewed. Without our own capability in that regard, it is a serious gap.

On the issue of the Atlantic Ocean, it is a big a place and, even with nine ships and a few more aeroplanes, it would not be possible for Ireland to police it on its own. The reality is we already do not. We already co-operate with a number of European bodies and international bodies when it comes to things like drug interdiction. We saw the effect of that last year with a very significant haul and it would seem that a more military element to that would be a logical extension, at least in terms of having the capability. If we want to call it a coastguard or a naval mission instead, that might be one option. It would very quickly run into the quagmire of debates around what this would mean for neutrality if these active missions were then coming back to Ireland. However, perhaps in a drug interdiction, trafficking or smuggling sense that might be something that connects it to people's lived reality in a way that our lived reality of the security threats are not necessarily there.

On research, no academic will say "No" to more research funding but it is something worth exploring. One of the questions I would have, if we are to set up this kind of institution, is what it would be co-ordinated to. Would we still lack a clear statement by the Government that these are the threats and risks that Ireland faces, these are the capabilities we have to deal with, and these are the gaps we need to address? Without that sort of foundation, there is not really any point in creating a research agency because it would not have a centre of gravity towards which it would be working.

While Dr. McDonagh is thinking there can I come in with two supplementaries? One is the lack of an intelligence committee in the Oireachtas. He seems to feel that that is a serious deficiency in our oversight. The second question is: as academics, have the witnesses ever been brought into a central forum by any government and asked to lay out what their priorities and research might be to allow government to adjudicate as to where we put money, or are we still putting money in a piecemeal way into one project or another while people are begging for crumbs from the table? I would love to see a group of academics who advise Government and I would pick one from each college or a number from each college to ensure we get over the rivalry thing. We do not seem to have a research policy and it does not have to be military. Cyber is massive at the moment. We do not seem to have a policy. I think there are about 20 different cyber research projects at the moment but there is nobody co-ordinating all of those and that worries me.

Senator Craughwell would prefer that they be academics that agree with him.

As my favourite expression goes, you always seek opinion which is just about plus or minus 5% of your own opinion. Then you define that opinion as being balanced and fair. We are all guilty of that. I am conscious Dr. McDonagh may want to come in on the supplementary questions he was asked.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

Senator Craughwell's questions about the defence forces, an intelligence service and research all revolve around one particular issue. That is the absence of a national conversation on defence and the absence of a national security culture. We have been blessed for 80 years that we did not have to think about defending ourselves other than the crisis in Northern Ireland. The State was totally consumed with looking at the on-island issues. We were blessed for 80 years. For 800 years we were cursed by our geography. As I say to my international students, who complain about Irish neutrality and free-riding, we had it bad for 800 years, and we are entitled to the 80 years we have had.

My point is the 80 years is coming to an end, in that these issues are now really important and will be striking at us. As we have not had to have these conversations for the best reasons in the world, it is tough for us to gear up and to begin to think about it. It is basic stuff. There is national security clearance, for example. We still have two Governmental Departments urinating into the wind in terms of whose responsibility it is going to be and who is going to pay for it.

We have real live issues such as foreign nationals working in State agencies who do not have security clearance. We have Irish academics who cannot serve on various expert committees because there is no system of national security clearance. We do not have a national security strategy. We do not have an integrated concept of defence. There is so much missing but it all comes down to that one point - we do not take defence seriously.

I do not want to get into a row about whether or not we should have a defence Minister, but that is simply emblematic of a much bigger conversation that still needs to be had. It will be a shame if we are forced to have that conversation because other people in Europe are having it and suddenly we have to make up our minds at the last minute. It would be so much better if we decided what our defence strategy was and how it was to be executed and took the political choices with the costs and benefits that arise from those choices.

I thank Dr. McDonagh. From my own perspective, so many areas have been covered. I have a few thoughts. To start where Dr. McDonagh finished, one of the key things about neutrality is that in every country in the world there are little button issues that that country deals with in a unique way. They come out of its history, its politics and its society. In the United States, you cannot put a tax on gas because if you do, it is the end of the world. Every other country in the world does not think that way or think the same way as the United States does about guns or whatever.

For us, because of a series of situations, neutrality has almost become that. Part of what I felt was missing from the discussion on that this morning was that there are a couple of aspects to it. As was alluded to, it is almost purely an emotive thing now. If anybody truly has a hard political view on neutrality, they have a hard emotive view on neutrality, which is what super-charges arguments very quickly. People move to a viewpoint which they hold very dear but they are not even sure what it means.

The other thing, which is not said and is important to say, even though it you can get into trouble for saying it, is that part of the neutrality argument is for some people anti-Americanism. When you actually look at it, they do not like the association of ideas around what neutrality ending could mean. It could mean joining NATO and forming military alliances which could mean a greater integration for this country into the Western defence system. It can be heard in some of the tones. We have public representatives where one can start on an issue but within five minutes, they will say "But America did this as well." That drives a part of the neutrality argument. Something that unfortunately a lot of public representatives on the other side are not willing to address or talk about is where we will fit in a world that is rapidly emerging, where the ability over the next 20 years to be a member of the European Union and not have an aligned position in defending that Union is no longer going to be tolerable. That places amazing pressure and problems on the people who are "anti" and the people who are "for" because it is almost universally the issue people want to duck.

To pick up on one or two aspects of things that were talked about earlier, I spend a lot of time at meetings with my EPP colleagues looking at where policy is going, particularly in these European elections but also beyond. There is no question but that from a European perspective the argument has moved completely. People forget that the presence of the United Kingdom within the European Union was a critical break on European Union militarisation, integration and defence. The UK's position was consistently that of the United States over many administrations of preserving NATO as the front-line structure. Therefore, there was no reason to develop a parallel structure. That has been blown apart. At the same time, it is quite clear from a European perspective that the UK's future in Europe will be in terms of a military alliance. Europe cannot and will not separate itself from the UK and various efforts will be made.

I refer to the development in the next four or five years of a common defence market for procurement. We talked about Trump being transactional and of moving if he is re-elected, which is not a certainty. It is more important for Europe, and I see no reason Ireland cannot play a part in that, to develop the industrial infrastructure, the industries that will enable a defence mechanism to be put in place. It was said there is a NATO alignment. The reality is that there may be a NATO alignment in terms of what bullet is put in what gun and what missile is fired at the end, but the problem for us at this moment in time is that within the European Union, if one wants to put a defence contract in place, there are about 32 options for tanks, 14 options for missile systems, and two options for anything you can think of. National policy trumps European-wide policy, whereas the United States has the ability to tender a contract that goes to a company which gives it the standards of size necessary. Europe needs to reach that point if it is to develop the industrial base that will facilitate its own defence.

From my perspective, and I would be interested in the witnesses' take on this, we are not talking about a militarisation of Europe designed to be aggressive. We are talking about the fact that if we want to have a Europe, which countries like Georgia, Moldova and North Macedonia want to join, you have to have an ability to defend what it is you are setting up.

The notion that without some defence capability, it will be left to its own devices to be a player in world affairs is living in a fool's paradise. If Europe wants to continue to move in the direction it would like to in this century, it will need to be able to back that. What will be happening to NATO simultaneously will be transformational. I do not think it will be the total destruction of NATO. I think there is the ability to outlive most American administrations but it would be damaging and therefore from Europe's perspective, the EU needs to look again at how it will defend what it wants to have as its future.

That is just my take on some of those things. I would make a side reference because it is really important, in that that is going to come at a cost financially. We are quickly forgetting that the bond issue, which was raised earlier today, is so important. We either defend it and recognise that within the budget or we are in danger of going down the route of Spanish local government just before its crash, in that there are no consequences of somebody raising gazillions of dollars or euro worth of debt which somebody else will have to pick up eventually. Therefore, we are better to put in place a structure. The lack of willingness to put in place a structure is the lack of willingness of Europe to move to the structures it needs to talk about in terms of defence. I do not know if the witnesses have any thoughts on my thoughts.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

I will come in first if that is all right, Chair. I think the Chair was right to highlight neutrality as an emotional issue. There was a statement by Josep Borrell, probably about two years ago at this point, where he talked about Europe separating out the basis of its economic prosperity and its security and even to bring those two back together. That is where neutrality has played a useful role because we have not thought about security. It is that uncomfortable position of asking, "If we are aligned politically and we are aligned economically, does our military alignment follow from that?" That creates some awkward questions about where we might fit. The public debate on that is very far away from thinking about closer alignment, similar to our political alignment and economic alignment. It may not ever get there. We need to think, as a country, what that means for our own capabilities and what we can and cannot engage in.

I also think the Chair was right to mention the effect of the UK on the cohesion of European security and defence policy, but that obviously came at a credibility cost. We lost huge capabilities. That is something that is more recognised now.

One thing I would pick up is in relation to the common defence market and the relationship between the United States and European security. It is probably worth highlighting that of the many ways in which the Trump administration was unique, in this particular area it was more about his communication style. The message of Europe doing more for itself was there under the Obama administration and under George W. Bush and Clinton. It is a bipartisan position, essentially. At the very minimum, it is prudent for the EU to start thinking about how it deals with these defence industrial capabilities on its own, even though a Trump administration would represent a particular challenge. It is also worth noting even if he is unsuccessful in the current election cycle, we have seen in Congress that the Republican Party is by and large a Trump party now. It is certainly going to take a certain period of time before that unwinds itself in terms of who the rising stars of that party are. We would not expect a huge policy shift, even if Trump is unsuccessful.

The one caveat I will raise is that it is all very well for the EU to talk about this as a defensive step and that developing our own capacity is about securing what we have. As Professor Tonra and I know from studying foreign policy for quite a long time, we need to deal with how that is perceived externally as well and to think seriously about what the EU would do if faced with opposition to these developments. One of the issues that is playing out in regard to the war in Ukraine was a failure by the EU to think through the consequences of what Russia meant when it said way back in 2013 that if Ukraine signs an association agreement, there will not be any guarantees of the future territorial integrity of Ukraine. The EU has kind of sidestepped that and said that is not what it is about, that it is about raising everybody's boat and that it is about bringing Ukraine in but not pushing anybody out in that context. Frankly, Moscow just did not believe it and were explicit in not believing it and in threatening consequences.

The EU and its member states do need to get better at understanding how we are perceived externally. Even though we may have the best intentions in engaging in certain steps, that may not be the kind of reaction they provoke. What do we have in place to respond to those negative reactions?

Professor Ben Tonra

I have two points. First on the issue of bonds, it is very interesting that the Government has come out against the idea of these defence bonds. I think that is reflective of the strategies on the part of the Irish Government with respect to Germany and some of the other so-called fiscally conservative states. It takes - if members will forgive the Yiddish word - a bit of chutzpah for Ireland to say we are not even going to entertain the idea of having these defence bonds.

On the issue of anti-Americanism in neutrality, there is an element of it, and it is quite high profile, but I think it would be unfair to characterise that position with that term. Most people's ideas of Irish neutrality is that it is positive and good and that it is trying to make a genuine contribution to the world that is somehow different. My frustration is, and people may or may not believe me, that I am totally agnostic on neutrality as to which way Ireland goes on this. If a positive vision of neutrality was put forward, it would be saying not only are we going to talk the talk, we are going to walk the walk. For example, on development aid, rather than spend 2% of GDP on defence, Ireland is going to spend 2% of its GDP on development aid. That would be a neutrality that is meaningful, to say that we are not going to put resources into defence and the military industrial complex, but we are going to take the equivalent amount of resources and we are going to become a superpower of development aid, of human rights or of all of the issues that people associate with neutrality that have nothing to do with neutrality. I do not know whether that is realistic politically, but it would be a credible model for neutrality into which people could buy.

There are a couple of things. First of all, let me be absolutely clear that the overall view on neutrality, which I quite support, is that it is something to which people have a genuine emotional attachment. I just said there is an element there, to be clear.

The reality of development aid, which I was involved in for two and a half years, is if we put 100% of the Irish budget into it, we would not really make an impact on a global scale in relation to what is happening in terms of the superpowers and in terms of what happens with money. We do not have the scale of those countries. Whether we go to 2% or whatever, we are not going to be a superpower. It might make us feel fuzzy and good to say we did not spend it on weapons, but we spent it on development aid. What it will actually do in the real world is make very little impact. On a geo-world level, it is what the main powers, including the European Union, can deliver in terms of budgets that actually make a difference.

I would be quite happy, as someone who passionately believes in development aid, if we were ever willing to spend 2% or anything more, but I mention the level of impact that would have in terms of what that means. I know it would sound like an awful lot of money to Irish people, but in terms of what you see and what is needed on the ground, and what will be the exponential growth in what is needed on the ground over the next couple of decades, it would not do anything.

For us, it is important to recognise there are two things. There is our own position in relation to neutrality and we have had a lot of discussion on that here. I also think there is a European Union position in relation to neutrality. That is really what I was addressing, because this a European affairs committee and I want to primarily focus on that. For Europe, that is going to be its biggest question. That cannot be resolved by individual member states continuing, collectively, with their different views. It must be resolved by a willingness within the European Union to move to a position. What Dr. McDonagh said on this is very important because I think Europe has a very poor record on foreign policy in some areas.

Macron is a great example of this. One day he is passionately pro-European and when he wakes up the next day, he is passionately pro-French. Sometimes the two foreign policies they are trying to bring together do not actually mesh. He gets away with that quite a bit, but that is the problem.

If Europe wants to continue to do what it is trying to do in being a player, we are all going to have to make some big choices and part of that now will completely be around where Europe will be with the ability to defend itself and where it will sit within those. There are other political situations. We have it in Hungary at this moment in time, we have a potential for it in changes of Government, we have it in Slovakia and we have it in various things where there is no longer a 100% homogenous EU position. That is becoming a greater problem for the union to deal with.

Senator Craughwell wishes to speak.

I have a short input to make. I get worried when I hear people mixing overseas development aid and neutrality. I am looking here at 2013 to 2022. Some €2,236.55 billion was pumped into ten states as overseas development aid. When I look at the states in question and the military armament they have, they have viable air forces and viable navies and massive tanks, personnel carriers and numbers of people. What if I come out to your house tomorrow morning and say I am going to pay your ESB bill and feed and educate your family, you are now able to buy a big fancy car now because you do not have to fund the cost of your family? Overseas development aid is a really good thing and I totally agree with what the Chairman is saying. We should be heavily involved in ODA. However, we need to step back and review where we are putting our money and how that money is being used.

For example, yesterday, the Tánaiste mentioned Mozambique and the work being done there. I informed him that they have a viable airforce and a viable navy - I think they have around 60 ships. I laid out the number of personnel carriers and tanks they have. If we are educating their population or looking after their health system, of course they are able to have an airforce or whatever else.

If we want to interdict something in our sky, we have to fly up there and ask whoever is up there to drop to 10,000 ft. because we cannot go any higher or to slow down to 600 knots because that is as fast as we can go. If we are going to spend our money, first, we should not be trying to tie ODA and defence and neutrality under the same umbrella. They are different vehicles.

Second, the review of ODA and NGO funding needs to happen in this country. We are pumping billions out and I am not sure where most of it is going. I do not know what the Chair's view of that is-----

For the record, we know where our money goes. That is an incorrect statement, Senator Craughwell. I could not let that stand. We have rigorous tracking processes unlike a lot of other areas where there is maybe a little bit of ambiguity as to where money goes. When it comes to ODA, we have very good systems in place. The Senator can disagree. I am not turning this into an ODA discussion.

I am not going to argue with the Chair on that.

Deputy Ó Murchú wishes to speak as well.

I apologise if some of this has been dealt with. Professor Tonra spoke about two things, including security clearance. I do not expect Ireland to have a CIA and I certainly do not expect it to have a whole pile of James Bonds going around the place. However, an ability to analyse information and to be able to put the correct information in front of Government and Ministers is obviously vital. The world has changed absolutely. Globalisation has been put on its head. We did have a status quo regarding mutually-assured destruction during the Cold War. There was not that much wiggle room.

Our two witnesses are academics and they might know the answer to this question as I cannot find where I saw this. Was there at one stage a US foreign policy proposal, from a defence point of view, that you could fight a war without engaging nukes? I do not mean a small element, but if you took on the Russians, you would do it with everything bar nuclear weapons and that someone like Eisenhower said that was grand, but when you start to lose, that would go out the window? However, Vladimir Putin has thrown that on its head to a degree. That is just for my own information.

On some level, I get what the Chair said on neutrality. I understand the way the Chair provided a caveat for what he said. Sometimes I prefer the idea of non-aligned and I suppose that does not rule out that we would not make a decision on what we would do. If we are looking at a worst-case scenario at some stage, I suppose that changes everything. Particularly coming from where I am coming from, we would have always had an issue regarding British involvement here and abroad, and American involvement in South and Central America, Cuba and wherever, even during the Cold War when they could not differentiate between eastern European communism and poor people who just wanted a better life. At times, America has been stupid in how it has operated and that is before we talk about Palestine.

However, we are in a world of neocolonialism. We have the Russians and the Chinese. We have game-play. We have whatever is going on in Georgia at this point. We have all that. I suppose we are in the age of the tech giants providing something because there are actors that weaponise this but the tech sector provides something that is absolutely weaponised if anyone wants to put negative messages out there or wants to just supercharge them, which we have seen. We have no shortage of bad actors in every state who will throw it out there, and it is easy enough then to put steroids on it. It is a very different world. I am not entirely sure what the actions should be.

What was spoken about regarding overseas aid is the real deal even if we are talking about migration or these other issues. Even if we are talking about countries in Africa that are not necessarily absolutely war-torn, their economies are not necessarily great. It has been put to me that with overseas aid, we have facilitated the education of a huge number of people and of populations that are growing but that they will live in crap economies until we change the nature of that and until less is taken out in debt than is put in and there is a fairer system. That is also accepting that you have a whole pile of governments that are not necessarily sound regarding corruption. Until you get that piece together, you will be constantly be dealing with this and with destabilisation. If I am going to give out about the Russians and the Chinese, I have to give out about the western world and what it has done in Syria, Iraq and across the board. You could put that piece together very quickly. I thought it was interesting where the meeting went with the overseas aid. If the witnesses can remember the 14 different questions I asked, I will be impressed.

The witnesses do not have to break the questions down individually. They may provide some general wrap-up comments regarding everything they have heard. Professor Ben Tonra will start.

Professor Ben Tonra

I apologise for throwing a metaphorical grenade into the room with my comments on development. The point I was trying to make was that if we are to have a conversation on Irish security and defence, which encompasses where our neutrality is and what we define it as, there is a wide range of options. It is just a conversation we have not had. Part of the reason we have not had the conversation is that people are shouting at one another using definitions they do not share. We should have that conversation. There are lots of different ways Ireland can go. It does not have to join NATO, nor does it have to be a Switzerland. There are lots of possibilities there. I was just positing something that could be a model for a different kind of foreign policy of neutrality.

The big point I want to make is to come back to Deputy Ó Murchú with respect to the broader picture. Peace is not the absence of war. Security is not just about guns and bombs. Security is much broader. In our field, Dr. McDonagh and I talk about things such as human security, which speaks precisely to the Deputy's point about poverty, lack of development and injustice. This is the stuff that gives rise to insecurity. That insecurity is expressed in many ways. It does find expression in armed conflict. However, it also finds its expression in migration, human trafficking and drug trafficking. There is a whole range of insecurity that comes out of a lack of human security.

I do not want to labour the point but if Ireland decided to make its contribution to security through addressing human security, not just as we do at the moment at a verbal level, not just talking the talk but actually putting our money were our mouth was, that would be a significant contribution. It would be a different kind of model. It may be pie in the sky. One may say academics can say anything, but it would be a different kind of model Ireland could contribute to. If we choose not to, that is fine. The point is Europe faces huge security challenges. Ireland needs to make its contribution to those challenges. There are different routes to do that but we need to have that conversation. We need to be explicit in terms of what we are doing because as of the moment what we are doing is simply sitting as a bystander, not contributing significantly on any front and, if the committee will forgive me, rather patting ourselves on the back saying, "Aren't we grand?", and we are not.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

To pick up on that point on the security challenges the EU is facing, and this goes back to the Cathaoirleach's question about what an EU approach to neutrality might be, I do not know where that will land exactly. There are solidarity clauses within the treaties, etc., but the reality, which has probably been expressed to the committee members more forcefully when they have engaged with their European counterparts, is that there is a greater cost to not being seen to express and live that solidarity in different ways or to have good answers to the questions that Professor Tonra asked, such as what is Ireland's contribution across this range, however we define security and what our interests are. There needs to be more public debate on that so that Ireland has a response and we are able to say these are the costs, these are the benefits, this is what we have decided to do, these are the capabilities or resources we are willing to put towards that, and we are willing to live with the consequences of that, positive or negative, in dealing with our other partners.

The only other point I would come back to as well is a point by Deputy Ó Murchú around social media and disinformation. We are seeing this in AI, not only because we are going through the examinations period in college. That is why it is fresh in my mind. That points back again for the need for-----

Any good students will know.

Dr. Kenneth McDonagh

That goes back to the point for the need for good intelligence and for being able to assess information to be able to make sure the correct information is informing decisions at a very high level when it comes to policymakers but also in the public forum. We are seeing significant issues with disinformation and how that will play out in our upcoming elections. At the moment, we still lack the capabilities to deal with that effectively. That is not only in Ireland but at a European level as well. It is in the US and in other countries. It is something that needs to be foregrounded in our thinking in this space.

Absolutely. I thank Dr. McDonagh. I will draw our meeting to a close by thanking both witnesses today. It has been a really interesting round-robin exchange. I thank the members for their questions. With that, I adjourn this committee until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 May.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.43 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 May 2024.
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