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Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 May 2024

Our Rural Future and Town Centre First Policies: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputy Naughten and Senator Garvey.

Members are reminded that when participating remotely, they are required to do so from within the Leinster House precinct only.

I welcome the witnesses. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action in respect of anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

With the legal necessities out of the way, I welcome the witnesses here today. The committee will now consider the Our Rural Future policy and the implementation of the town centre first policy. Our Rural Future provides a framework for the development of rural Ireland over a five-year period from 2021 to 2025. The town centre first policy, which was launched on 4 February 2024, is a cross-government policy which aims to tackle vacancy, combat dereliction and give a new lease of life to town centres. This policy was piloted successfully in County Roscommon and is working well. This item has been on the committee's work programme for some time so we look forward to hearing the evidence this morning about the roll-out and the implementation of these polices.

I welcome the following witnesses to the meeting: from the Department of Rural and Community Development, Mr. Fintan O'Brien, assistant secretary general, rural development and regional affairs; Mr. Robert Nicholson, principal officer, rural strategy and social enterprise; and Mr. Andrew Forde, principal officer, rural regeneration; from Roscommon County Council, Mr. Shane Tiernan, chief executive; Mr. Mark Keaveney, director of services, regeneration, economic development, community, tourism, heritage and Roscommon MD - a title long enough to deserve a ministerial status; and Ms Úna Ní Chuinn, town regeneration officer; and from the Heritage Council, Mr. Ian Doyle, head of conservation, Ms Catherine Casey, head of climate change, and Mr. Pearse Ó Caoimh, head of communications and public affairs.

First, I invite Mr. Fintan O'Brien to make his opening statement on behalf of the Department.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

I thank committee members for their invitation to this meeting today to discuss the implementation of the town centre First policy. As the Chair mentioned, I am head of rural development and regional affairs in the Department of Rural and Community Development. I am joined by my colleagues Andrew Forde, principal officer with responsibility for rural regeneration including the town centre first policy, and Robert Nicholson, principal officer with responsibility for rural strategy and social enterprise.

Our Rural Future is the whole-of-Government policy for sustainable rural development over a five-year timeframe to 2025. The Department oversees and co-ordinates the implementation of the policy, which now contains more than 170 commitments across Government. Our reporting on this implementation is managed though the publication of biannual progress reports and annual work programmes, and the committee may be aware that the most recent of these reports has now been published.

Before I move on to address the town centre first policy specifically, I would like to take this opportunity to advise the committee that as part of the development of the successor to Our Rural Future, the Department has commissioned the OECD to conduct a review of rural policy in Ireland. Work on this has already started and will include OECD mission visits to Ireland over the coming months. I would like to extend an invitation to members of the committee to meet with the OECD as part of this process and therefore to have a direct input into that body of work. I will be happy to revert to the clerk as required with any further details on this matter.

Our Rural Future sets out a range of actions and approaches in key areas such as: the number people living in rural Ireland, the number of people working in rural Ireland, and the regeneration of rural towns and villages. In support of this, the Department implements a range of measures under its rural development investment programme, and the committee will be familiar with schemes such as the town and village renewal scheme and the rural regeneration and development fund, which address many of the themes of town centre regeneration that are relevant to today’s meeting. Our Rural Future also clearly references the potential impact of a town centre first approach and sets out a number of actions in this regard. Following on from this, the Town Centre First policy document, published in February 2022, was jointly developed by the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The policy emerged from the work of an interdepartmental group which purposefully drew on the input of a wide range of stakeholders. The policy includes a range of 33 actions which seek to tackle issues such as vacancy and dereliction and aims to give our towns the tools and resources they require in order to regenerate themselves as viable and attractive places in which people and families can live, work and run a business.

Central to the policy is the fact that no two rural areas are identical. Accordingly, town centre first clearly recognises the role of locally-led town teams in developing plans that recognise their own circumstances, challenges and opportunities. The policy supports a place-based approach to development whereby town teams and communities chart the future direction of their towns based on each town’s own unique characteristics.

The implementation of the actions set out in the policy is underpinned by strategic investment schemes such as the funds I have already mentioned that are implemented by the Department of Rural and Community Development.

A number of other funding streams are directly supportive of the town centre first principles, such as the urban regeneration and development fund implemented by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the RDF’s THRIVE scheme in relation to the town centre first heritage revival, the Heritage Council’s historic towns initiative, and the Reimagine programme run by the Irish Architecture Foundation.

Some of the key milestones to date in the implementation of the policy have been the establishment of the town centre first national office within the Local Government Management Agency to drive delivery of actions at a national level, and the establishment of the national oversight and advisory group made up of key stakeholders from both Government and community and voluntary organisations. Additionally, 26 town regeneration officers have been resourced in rural local authorities to drive delivery at local level. These officers play a central role in their respective areas by supporting the formation and support of town teams, driving forward development of town centre first plans, and supporting access to funding. Indeed, the role of these officers in helping to develop high-quality project proposals that support town centre development was clearly evident in the most recent iterations of the rural regeneration and development fund and the town and village renewal scheme.

I am conscious my opening remarks represent a very brief overview of some of the key areas of intervention by the Department of Rural Community Development. I and my colleagues are very happy to answer any questions members of the committee may have and to provide any further detail which may be required.

I thank Mr. O'Brien and I believe the committee will follow up on his invitation to participate in the OECD work. If he could communicate with the clerk, that would be very much appreciated. I now invite Mr. Tiernan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Shane Tiernan

I thank the Chair. I am the chief executive of Roscommon County Council. With me here today, as outlined already, are Mark Keaveney, director of services with responsibility for regeneration, and Úna Ní Chuinn, the town centre first regeneration officer. I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to attend today to discuss Our Rural Future and the implementation of town centre first policies.

By way of background, in 2013, the Government appointed the Commission for Economic Development of Rural Areas, CEDRA, to look at the economic development of rural areas, which resulted in the CEDRA report. The result outlined 34 recommendations towards the achievement of the commission’s vision that rural Ireland would become a dynamic, adaptable and outward-looking multisectoral economy supporting vibrant, resilient and diverse communities experiencing a high quality of life with an energised relationship between rural and urban Ireland which would contribute to its sustainability for the benefit of society as a whole. The report strongly advocated a community-led development approach.

At about the same time, the Government outlined its policies in relation to an enhanced role for local government in the areas of community, economic and enterprise development, as envisaged under the local government sectoral strategy to support economic recovery and jobs and Putting People First - Action Programme for Effective Local Government. This was formalised in the Local Government Reform Act 2014. In addition, leading on from the Local Government Reform Act 2014, the public participation network was established nationwide to give communities a greater and more structured way of participating in local decision-making processes. These policies, legislation and expanded role for local authorities led to the proposal to establish town teams as an integral part of Roscommon County Council’s vision to energise and reinvigorate the six main towns as vehicles for driving community and economic development within the county. The towns are: Roscommon town, the county town, Strokestown, Monksland, Ballaghaderreen, Castlerea and Boyle. The project was initiated by Roscommon County Council as part of the new enhanced role for local authorities.

From a funding perspective, in 2014, the council chose to forgo a 2% reduction in rates. A 1% reduction was given and the remaining 1% was used to establish the business, enterprise and innovation fund. This fund, totalling €100,000, was used to fund the town teams initiative with the belief that it would help to create jobs, facilitate start-up businesses and, above all, reinstil a pride of place in our towns. A core principle of the town team concept is that those who live and work within the towns should be involved in the design and delivery of solutions for their towns. During 2015, the then Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government sought applications from local authorities for suitable projects within individual rural economic development zones, REDZ, as they were known, as identified in the CEDRA report. Roscommon County Council received €75,000 to support the development of the town teams and the grant was divided equally among the teams. Subsequently, additional funding under a REDZ pilot initiative for town teams was received. These short-term initiatives began to breathe new life into communities that witnessed the worst effects of the recession through closure of businesses in the heart of all six towns. Longer term deliverable and realistic initiatives then formed part of future town team plans.

In 2016, Roscommon County Council agreed that its town team funding for the next four years could be front-loaded or rolled over to secure matched funding for other grant sources. This gave the town teams ownership of the projects they wished to develop. Roscommon County Council has continued to provide an annual grant to the six town teams, with the 2024 allocation of €12,500 per team from our revenue budget. From a new policy direction perspective from 2015 to 2016 under Realising Our Rural Potential – Action Plan for Rural Development, the Government has put increasingly greater funding into rural support schemes such as CLÁR, town and village renewal, and the outdoor recreation infrastructure scheme. These have provided a step change in community-led activity, with the town teams being joined by a myriad of other community groups seeking to become involved in community-led development. Roscommon County Council is in the envious position of having very strong town teams and community groups that have the capacity to develop proposals for the development of their area and the capacity to deliver on these projects. The council also established a regeneration unit in 2018, which, with the economic development unit, has been crucial to supporting communities to build capacity to develop and deliver projects, assisting communities to deliver small- and medium-scale projects, developing plans to guide the development of projects in an integrated holistic manner, allowing the utilisation of multiple funding sources to deliver on the objectives for an area, and allowing the council to build the expertise and experience necessary to be able to, with communities, develop and deliver large-scale projects in an holistic and efficient manner.

The development of this regeneration unit took a leap of faith on the council’s part and a risk in relation to the funding of the positions, but it has paid off in a myriad of ways. The publication of Project 2040 and the establishment of the rural regeneration and development fund and indeed the urban regeneration and development fund has enabled projects of scale, identified and promoted by the community, to be delivered by the local authority. Our Rural Future Rural Development Policy 2021-2025, published in 2021, represents a new milestone in the approach to rural development by adopting a more strategic, ambitious and holistic approach to investing in and maximising opportunities for rural areas. This policy is built around the centrality of people who make up the communities that support and maintain the fabric of rural Ireland, around the places where our rural communities live, where businesses start up and grow and which are gateways to our heritage, culture and natural environment, and around the possibilities for the rural area. Since this policy was published, there has been a clear shift in the strategic cross-government and cross-funding connections, leading to an increased level of interlinkage and scale of projects and ambition for communities and their places.

Arising from objectives in Our Rural Future and Housing for All, the town centre first policy, published in 2022, sets out a framework to facilitate and resource each town to chart its own future through a tailored plan, developed by a collaborative town team and supported by the local authority. Roscommon County Council put forward Boyle as a pilot town centre first town in 2018 and developed the Boyle 2040 town centre first plan that, to date, has formed the basis for multimillion euro developments in Boyle, funded through a range of Government schemes, as outlined in table 1, as well as informing the town centre first policy. I will not read through table 1 in detail, but there is effectively €14 million of community and council-led projects being put in place in the town of Boyle. Roscommon County Council has appointed a town regeneration officer, funded by the Department of Rural and Community Development, who works within the regeneration and economic development unit. This has brought a renewed focus in our towns and our town teams as we have just completed our Strokestown town centre first plan and are preparing our Castlerea plan.

From an outcome of the rural development policies perspective, rural development policy and the associated policy and plan-led funding has been a game changer for County Roscommon. As well as the development of community, rural and town-based facilities, places, trails, tourism infrastructure, etc., it has been a real driver of community and town team participation and pride in place, confidence in communities and vision for a better future. As a demonstration of this, I have outlined in table 2 the scale of projects, both in the implementation phase and being prepared, and showing the ambitious plans for the future. Again, not to go through it in detail but if all comes to fruition, we are looking at circa €164 million in projects, as detailed in table 2.

The next piece of my overview is photographs of some of the projects delivered in County Roscommon. We have our new town centre square in County Roscommon with a beautiful covered space and a place for gathering and celebration. We have an example of Cloonfad village with an outdoor meeting area. We have our life sciences innovation hub in Monksland. We have images of the old Royal Hotel in the centre of Boyle. It was derelict but now is the site of a new innovation hub on the top two floors with a visual arts centre on the ground floor leading into a beautiful park area to the rear towards the pleasure grounds in Boyle. Moreover, further funding has been received in the order of €4 million to €6 million for the construction of a new state-of-the-art 24-7 library that will be at the rear of that facility, bringing the entirety of the town of Boyle back to a new, regenerated centre.

As for the future direction, the development and implementation of projects, particularly projects of scale and where integration of funding streams is required, is heavily dependent on the capacity of the local authority regeneration and economic development teams to deliver on the vision of the town teams and communities. The town teams and community groups are volunteers with other obligations and generally are limited in the range of skills necessary to deliver complex projects. It is vital that the Department of Rural and Community Development continues to support local authority resources in a sustainable manner in order that we can maintain our regeneration and economic teams to suppose these community and Town Teams.

There is a broad range of financial and other support available to bring vacant properties in towns and villages back into residential use or community use, including building acquisition measures, town and village schemes, Croí Cónaithe, energy efficiency funding and social housing options. Many towns also need a stimulus to encourage the development of commercial, business and mixed opportunities in these vacant buildings and to bring them back into use in town centres where they will generate footfall, vibrancy and economic activity.

In light of the very large and welcome funding for rural areas through the various Government schemes, there is an increasing burden on the financial resources of many local authorities in terms of match funding. This is now at the point where some local authorities are not in a position to apply for large projects through the Department of Rural and Community Development or the Department of housing and local government schemes. We welcome a discussion and consideration of the match funding requirements of both future and current projects.

In conclusion, I will take this opportunity to highlight a few key points. The rural support scheme and RRDF and URDF funding are very welcome and have been game changers in terms of rural development and incentivising economic and community development and participation. The actual amount of funding that is involved is relatively modest on an annual basis in terms of Ireland's overall expenditure. The development of policy over the past eight to ten years has helped to focus and develop a more strategic approach to rural development and funding at both national and local level. It is vital that local authorities are supported and resourced to continue to lead in this crucial area of supporting town teams and community groups to deliver real economic and community development in their areas. The match funding requirement is becoming a real issue for many local authorities and is putting increasing strain on small local authority revenue budgets, particularly rural local authorities, and is putting some local authorities in a position where they have to undertake significant borrowing. I thank the Chair and the committee for this opportunity to contribute to the committee’s work on this very important topic and look forward to the discussion.

I thank Mr. Tiernan. I think he is the first man I have ever seen to round €14.988 million down to €14 million. I think you would have been on safe enough footing to round that up to €15 million and I do not think we will object too much. Finally, I call Mr. Doyle of the Heritage Council to make his opening statement.

Mr. Ian Doyle

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and members for inviting the Heritage Council to attend. I am head of conservation at the Heritage Council. The CEO of the Heritage Council, Virginia Teehan, sends her apologies as she is unable to be here today. I am accompanied by my colleagues, Catherine Casey, head of climate change, and Pearse Ó Caoimh, head of communications and public affairs.

The Heritage Council’s remit is very broad. The joint committee’s oversight of the policies within Our Rural Future and Town Centre First is of particular interest to us, as we have over many years engaged with these policies through expert advisory groups, in particular town centres first, and in contributing to the implementation of the actions.

We welcome the work of the town centre first office under the leadership of the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, with the support of local authorities under the aegis of the two responsible Departments. We note that the town centre first policy has adopted the valuable learnings of the Heritage Council’s collaborative town centre health checks programme.

The Heritage Council has always taken the view that heritage exists in both urban and rural environments, that it adds character and distinctiveness to our places, that good heritage practice is about sustainability, community involvement and partnership and that a joined-up approach to natural, cultural and intangible heritage is essential. We take the view that our urban and rural areas are closely related insofar as vibrant rural areas support our towns and villages and vice versa.

A number of our programmes are of interest and speak to these policies. These include the traditional farm buildings scheme, which funds the conservation of privately owned traditional farm buildings and is run in partnership with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. In 2023, this funded 60 farm building conservation projects with a value of €1.084 million. In 2022, this funded 69 projects to a value of just over €1 million. This scheme has been running since 2009 and over that time has made a significant impact on the rural landscape, engaging with heritage and the transfer of conservation skills.

The Heritage Council community heritage grants scheme provides funding to community groups and not-for-profit non-governmental organisations around the country for heritage projects. This scheme enables communities and heritage NGOs to continue their work on existing projects or to start new initiatives. In 2023, we allocated almost €1.6 million to 137 heritage projects such as the Ballydangan red grouse project in County Roscommon and the Abbeyleix bog project in County Laois.

For non-profit and community-led groups with higher capacity and wider reach, the heritage organisation support fund provides crucial core funding to allow them to consolidate and develop. In 2023, 37 groups were successful in obtaining funding to a total of €1.13 million. In 2024, there will be funding for 35 groups to a total budget of €1.64 million. Groups supported include the Community Wetlands Forum, Historic Houses of Ireland, the Inishowen Rivers Trust, Wicklow Uplands Council, Burrenbeo Trust and Dark Sky Ireland.

The Heritage Council’s Irish Walled Towns Network, IWTN, focuses on uniting and coordinating the efforts of local authorities and communities involved in the management, conservation and enhancement of historic walled towns in Ireland. At present, there are 32 member towns located across Ireland, North and South. This includes the town centre first towns of Carrick-on-Suir, New Ross, Athenry and Castledermot and we look forward to seeing the strong role that heritage plays in the ongoing regeneration of these historic places through town centre first plans. In 2023, the council awarded €650,000 to IWTN member towns. In keeping with the remit of this committee, we have been long-term supporters of community-led heritage strategies on Bere Island, County Cork. Implementation of an initial Heritage Council funded conservation plan has been supported by the Heritage Council for more than 20 years. The efforts towards island sustainability and the promotion of the island’s military heritage in that period have been impressive and this has been led by the local community.

In keeping with the Heritage Council’s Strategic Plan 2023-28: Our Place in Time, we are growing our work to promote and sustain traditional skills such as thatching, carpentry, lime mortars, etc. We are currently doing this through an all-island heritage skills programme in partnership with the UK King’s Foundation and the Northern Ireland historic environment division within the Department for Communities.

The historic towns initiative, HTI, is a joint undertaking between the Heritage Council and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It promotes heritage-led regeneration of Ireland’s historic towns and has been used to trial collaborative approaches to heritage-led regeneration. By engaging local communities, heritage experts, and local authorities, the HTI has piloted ways to revitalise historic towns, enhancing their appeal while conserving cultural identity and there is a case study at the back of the paper provided which I will not read out relating to Portlaoise. Since 2018, the HTI has supported 37 towns - I am happy to say two of those towns are in County Roscommon, namely, Roscommon town and Boyle - in delivering a range of heritage-led regeneration projects and allocated almost €8 million in funding. This year it will fund specific regeneration plans in Monaghan town, Passage West, County Cork, Lisdoonvarna and a conservation architect led plan to supplement the town centre first plan for Strokestown, County Roscommon.

The success of the HTI approach is reflected in the town centre first policy, which encourages conservation of historic and cultural assets to stimulate revitalisation of town centres. Policy development has benefited from the Heritage Council’s model of trialling collaborative approaches to heritage conservation on the ground and assisting in the mainstreaming of these to national policy.

What next? I refer to future directions for the Heritage Council's role in policy development and mainstreaming. Looking forward, we feel the Heritage Council is well positioned to play a strong role in the further development and mainstreaming of heritage-focused policies in both urban and rural development across Ireland, while assisting with implementation of the policies within both Our Rural Future and town centre first. Our focus is on deepening the integration of heritage conservation into broader policy frameworks, enhancing collaboration with local and national government and scaling up successful models to a national level.

We feel a critical issue is developing heritage capacity at local level. The successful implementation of policies like town centre first depends on a local delivery mechanism through local government and the local community. The placement in local authorities of professionals including town regeneration officers, active travel officers, climate action co-ordinators and others will boost the effectiveness of investments in regeneration projects. However, the full realisation of policies like town centre first will depend on enhanced collaboration at local level, establishment of strong working relationships with all stakeholders and the availability of a wide range of in-house heritage expertise. We are also developing our links with the County and City Management Association, CCMA. As part of this the Heritage Council is investing in building heritage capacity at local level through continued investment in the heritage officer programme, which is now in its 25th year. My colleague, Mr. Ó Caoimh, has a publication on a range of heritage officer projects nationally, which are presented in a new publication. We have copies of it with us. There is also the new biodiversity officer programme. We are working with colleagues in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to grow our work with the CCMA to develop an architectural conservation officer programme with the objective of achieving the employment of an ACO in each local authority. We equally plan to develop a local authority archivist programme with the same objective of achieving a national network. These local programmes, supported through integrated training, will focus on best practice in holistic heritage conservation, stakeholder engagement and realising the economic benefits of heritage-led regeneration.

We welcome the establishment of Páirc Náisiúnta na Mara, Ciarraí. Ireland’s network of national parks is composed primarily of state-owned lands. There are also examples of community-led landscape management in Ireland. The Heritage Council recently advertised a call for tenders for a research study into best practice in such community management of landscapes, recognising that the emotional significance of a community’s interaction with the landscape is a major part of what shapes rural communities’ pride of place. This study will, we hope, identify best practice and inform the developing policy on land use and land cover mapping and management for the future. By focusing on these strategic areas, the Heritage Council aims to reinforce its role as a key facilitator in the development and mainstreaming of heritage-led policies that contribute to vibrant, sustainable communities across Ireland. This proactive approach ensures that heritage conservation remains integral to national development strategies, enhancing both social cohesion and economic vitality. I again thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for their attention. My colleagues and I are happy to answer your queries and provide further information as required. Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir.

I thank the witnesses for their detailed opening statements. I invite members to discuss and remind any members participating online to use the raise hand feature to indicate if they wish to contribute.

I thank the witnesses. It is an interesting topic and it falls across two Departments. One of the interesting aspects is that the very real challenges we face in rural communities and small towns are not unique to Ireland. Urbanisation is a challenge that most developed countries face. There are perhaps factors that are unique to Ireland. In continental Europe it is maybe based much more around the strong village or town. The outlying rural area does not have the same density of population that our properly rural areas in Ireland do. While it is right to ensure that we build strong towns and villages, the rural communities around them are a big part of our identity. It is not about the village or the town alone. We cannot expect the town or village to do all the heavy lifting. I do not have a lot of significant questions, but a number of things occur to me. What is true in both cities and in more rural local authorities with responsibility for towns and villages is there is a need for a more aggressive approach to property. Some local authorities have succeeded well in proactively using the powers they have. Louth County Council has taken the opportunity to take possession of vacant buildings, bring them back into use and then make a plan for what use they should have after that. It sounds like Roscommon County Council has also done this but I am not as familiar with it. Other local authorities are more reluctant, and maybe the grounds for their reluctance are not unreasonable in that there are risks involved in this. The costs can increase. Will funding by cleared by government? While this is maybe a tangent, I will also flag that just over 11 years ago there was a referendum on the fiscal compact. One of the regrettable impacts is that at times when the national government is borrowing a great deal, it hugely restricts the abilities of local authorities to borrow for projects it needs, because it is added to the national balance sheet. That is a tangent, but it has ramifications. Our local authorities need to be in a stronger position to borrow for projects, such as taking property into ownership.

I represent Cork city. There are some towns and villages in my constituency, but not many, and those are primarily commuter towns. In our towns and cities as well as rural areas, some of what is not quite dereliction but under occupancy or under use of buildings is due to the dynamic of above shop properties. That is very challenging, but there is potential in our towns and villages for people to live above the shop to bring life back into our towns and villages. Is it possible to get a comment on that? I also note the Heritage Council's investment in Passage West, which is a tremendous town with such huge potential. It has a fascinating history and is close to Cork city. A big and relevant issue is that Cork County Council applied under the URDF to purchase the 8 acre dockland site. That did not proceed because the owner was not willing to sell. One thing local authorities can do relates to planning frameworks. This is a huge strategic site in the middle of a town. It is a narrow town in the way it is laid out. It is an 8 acre site with huge potential to transform the town and open it up onto the water. In those circumstances , the council can outline a master plan in terms of planning. That is an approach that can be taken elsewhere. In certain circumstances it is right for local authorities to take an aggressive approach to purchase property, bring it back into use and dispose of it in an appropriate way to private or community use. However, in certain circumstances where they are not in ownership of a piece of property, there is scope to outline at the next sale what they believe is the appropriate use of it, what they are looking for in terms of planning applications and how they see the future vision of the particular town. That is the bulk of what I have to say. I might come in again. A lot of our future and the strategy has to come from other Departments too. With the best will in the world, heritage and property initiatives are not going to succeed unless the enterprise initiatives and the things that bring investment and make it sustainable for people to live in rural communities are also there.

My final point is about Gaeltacht areas, and the deputy chair will be acutely aware of this. I know from speaking to people in An Rinn, County Waterford, that there is not enough property being bought there. People have to go into Dungarvan even though there is probably employment in that area. Ensuring people have a place to live in Gaeltacht communities is vitally important to the future protection of viable Gaeltacht communities. That is probably a bit around the houses, but those are some observations if people want to pick up on them.

There are a number of questions. I will start with the Department.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

There are a number of issues and I will try to cover the ones that fall within our bailiwick. The Deputy started by talking about the challenges of rural communities and what may or may not be unique to Ireland. We are well aware of that. At international level there is quite a body of evidence we are trying to lean on, and that underpins our approach to having the OECD come in.

They will bring in peer reviewers from other countries to look at how much worse we are doing, and bring that expertise into it. We are also trying to engage more at the EU level. The Deputy is equally right when he says that it is not simply about what is happening at an international level and we should not lean entirely on that. There is an element of the Irish experience and the Irish challenges but, even within that, it is broken down a lot more because within different rural communities in Ireland there are different challenges, priorities and approaches. That is what we are really trying to get at when we talk about town centre first being based on a local place-based approach.

It would be very difficult for three of us to sit in an office in Dublin and say: "Here is the top-down approach to how you fix all problems in rural Ireland." That would be very challenging. The idea of the town teams, the regeneration officers, and the role of the local authorities is to try to plug us into that local difference. That is quite a challenge but we think we are making progress in that regard. The challenge we face at the moment is to balance all of those.

The Deputy mentioned properties and local authorities. My colleagues in the local authorities will probably take that up. From our point of view, we are trying to work with local authorities from our area of responsibility to try to give a few more tools in relation to that. We will see funding for the purchase of those types of properties featuring more in our schemes under the town and village renewal scheme and the URDF. In the past couple of years we had a building acquisition measure, which proved quite popular across the country as well. The focus for two years has been on cinemas, Garda stations and FCA halls and many different types of building, that are strategically important in towns. We have been giving funding to local authorities to purchase them and they are later developed as community facilities.

In relation to local authority borrowing and financing, I will just pick up on what my colleague from Roscommon said as well. We are aware of that challenge. I would probably say that it is not an evenly distributed challenge across local authorities in terms of the finances available. We have been discussing that quite a lot in our engagement with the CCMA. We meet its rural development committee every quarter. We also have discussions on it with directors of service. We have responded in places on that. For example, in our schemes in the last year there has been a more favourable co-financing arrangement for the local authorities in the north-west region. It is important to take account of that. It has been well received.

We are very much aware of the number of increasing demands on local authorities, so we are trying our best to work in collaboration with them. The town regeneration officers, TROs, are a big part of that. We see a massive role for them in terms of linking things together with the local authorities and the town teams. They go back to the local authorities and then back to the centre as well. That, hopefully, will help there as well. We are in discussion with the CCMA at the moment as well on resources. Our shared challenge is delivery under our range of schemes. How do we make sure that we are resourcing that properly within local authorities because both the local authorities and ourselves are very much focused on delivery? It is not simply about announcing that a scheme is open, it is about the delivery of projects on the ground. I think we are making good progress on that but it is certainly something on which we will be in ongoing discussion with the local authorities.

In relation to Our Rural Future, the Deputy mentioned the input from other Departments. That is a key feature of it. Our role is to put a coherence, framework and a joint effort on it as best we can. The cross-governmental piece has always been a challenge. My father retired from the Civil Service in 2001 and he was talking about the cross-governmental challenges a generation before me and it is still there. We are making progress. Our Rural Future sits in the centre of that. What is in that policy is a real focus for us in terms of momentum and coherence. We spend a lot of time engaging directly with Departments on their actions and where they fit in with the wider rural piece. We are trying to present that as a joint win and a joint development. We are trying to put the pieces of the jigsaw together. That is challenging but I think we are making progress in terms of presenting that coherence on a cross-departmental basis. That is always there. For us, it is then about how we move that into a successor policy for Our Rural Future, and make sure that the key relationship with Departments remains a part of it and that it does not become an exercise in sending around progress reports every three months and everyone in the Department groans and goes: "I can't believe we have to put this out again." It is about getting engagement. For us, it has really been about the one-to-one relationship we have with Departments. They have been buying in, which is fantastic. That is pretty much all on my side. I will pass over to colleagues.

Does Mr. Tiernan want to give the local authority perspective in response to Deputy Ó Laoghaire's comments?

Mr. Shane Tiernan

I identify with some of what the Deputy says. From my perspective, there has been a seismic shift in the last ten years in how rural local authorities are now building their towns and villages, connecting with communities and connecting with the citizens. Citizens now feel listened to and part of the vision of what we are doing.

There is a multitude of funding streams, even beyond what we are talking about here today, such as through housing, and the Fáilte Ireland funding. I have an example from recent days. We are in one of the just transition counties and we received funding through two streams - the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Pobal - to acquire a derelict filling station and an adjacent unfinished housing estate. It will effectively bring a derelict section of the town back into constructive social housing but there will also be a community hub in the old filling station. That is not even associated with the programmes we are talking about here today, but this is all part of this regeneration programme.

This is how the interlinkages work really well for us, because we are reaching out in all directions to bring the whole package together. Initiatives like Ireland's Hidden Heartlands, through Fáilte Ireland, again, are driving the towns and villages to be focused on these national policies that are going to attract tourism. That is shaping the businesses.

The Deputy mentioned living over the shop. The reality of it is in the smaller towns and villages a lot of the shops are not there to live over, and the challenge is what we do on the ground floor that makes the town and village vibrant in the centre. We can do all the work with the town teams. We can bring the infrastructure into place and add recreational facilities and make towns enjoyable, but we still need to incentivise enterprise to be something of a catch there, let it be hospitality or something like that. I still feel more is needed in that area to incentivise business generation in the town centres.

A lot of things have come together very well for us. Another thing I have to mention is the vision and commitment of the elected members in Roscommon. As a collective, they very much realised that some risk would have to be taken and unpopular decisions would have to be taken, but they have paid huge dividends for the towns and villages. That meant, for example, significant borrowings for Roscommon, in the order of €10 million at a point, to match-fund regeneration projects. That is a difficult decision for members because ultimately it hits the revenue budget in repayments and ultimately hits the payers of the county, but the long-term vision is paying dividends. We feel that collective approach with the executive has been a pivotal instrument in having success in some of the regeneration and bringing Roscommon to a new level. The excitement is palpable in Roscommon. In the towns and villages we have an enormous surge of communities that want to join our public participation network, PPN. We have in the order of 300 groups now that want to be part of it because they realise this is working. When I reach out beyond that, there are little schemes we do like graveyard committees and Tidy Towns teams, and other such funding streams. All of this is a collective feeding up into that greater picture.

We have even had funding on a bigger scale. The Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Humphreys, is coming down in the next week or so to open three significant projects. We have the Castlerea food hub. This is bringing us into the area of business generation, where we work with the town team. We now have a brand new unit with seven food incubation units where new businesses are starting and launching their business in innovative food production facilities. The units are already practically booked out with demand to fill them. In Monksland, we created a life sciences hub through funding from the Department. Again, that is fantastic. We already have the top floor of that filled. We will support businesses that want to support the life sciences cluster that is in Monksland. I could keep talking because, as I said, we have so much going on, but I want to let my colleague speak.

In response to the Deputy, an awful lot of good things are coming together but the challenge is to keep that going. The problem for me now in a smaller local authority is, as I mentioned earlier, that if I want to do another big project it is going to be very difficult for me to find 20%. In recent calls, the requirement has been for 10% matched funding, which has been a huge help. However, even 10% of €6 million is €600,000, which for a small local authority with a revenue budget of €70 million that automatically pushes us right back down, maybe to a 0.5% rate increase or a 1% increase, and then we are perhaps knocking back the business a little bit. We need to think about all of that in future programmes for the smaller local authorities.

I want to stress that the foresight and initiative of the Government and what has happened through our colleagues in the Department has been game-changing for us. These are really fantastic policies that have brought real dividends to Roscommon.

Mr. Doyle, would you like to give us the perspective of the Heritage Council?

Mr. Ian Doyle

A lot of points ware raised there. I cannot respond to all of them but will pick out some of the key ones. Deputy Ó Laoghaire mentioned living over the shop and we would agree with him on that. We would see that as a key issue and a very difficult nut to crack. We have two demonstration projects funded through our historic towns initiative in Monaghan town. They are taking quite a bit of time but I am confident that we can come up with some good demonstration projects there. There are planning issues involved here but it is frequently said that the desire of people to live over the shop is not there, although I would question that. Fire certification is the other key issue, particularly if the ground floor is in commercial use. That has frequently been something of a hurdle to negotiate.

The Deputy mentioned compulsory purchase orders. We are aware of one or two local authorities that have taken a strong and bold approach to CPOs which has paid off. There is a body of expertise in some of the local authorities in how to use that particular instrument effectively and efficiently and maybe that is an area where learning could be shared.

I also note the Deputy's comments on Passage West. We were delighted to fund that. It is an amazing town settlement. It is hard to believe that an area so close to Cork city is showing such signs of under-use. A good plan could make a good impact there. We have pushed this idea of heritage-led regeneration across towns in Ireland over a number of years. The basis of it is that we put a plan together and we pick a couple of really important projects and that starts to send out a really strong signal that there is investment in a town. It is an approach that the town centre first policy is replicating. It is a little bit like the broken window theory. If we make a fix and show that somebody cares, things can pick up.

Ultimately projects like this, where so much of the money is channelled to local authorities, come down to local authority capacity. I take the points made by the representative from Roscommon County Council about funding. We believe that a full complement of staff, from a heritage perspective, which would include a heritage officer, an architect, a conservation officer, and a biodiversity officer, contributing to plans rather than relying on consultants who come and go and who have a very high day rate, can give a local authority a great advantage. Having in-house expertise that can contribute and collaborate and that brings knowledge of place is so beneficial. That knowledge of place is critical to the success of places. I was in Roscommon town about two weeks ago and was really struck by the quality of the new market square. It looks really well.

I also heard mention of graveyard committees and Tidy Towns groups. These are the kinds of groups that the Heritage Council funds through its community heritage grant scheme. We agree that they have good heritage impacts but they also bring people together and create social capital. We get reports of gatherings in community halls and people coming together to plan a project which demonstrates that heritage is a bit like glue. It brings people together and I would not underestimate that element of social capital that we see in those projects and programmes.

I will have to go soon as I will be speaking in a debate in the Dáil Chamber but I would like to make a few brief observations. There are lots of things that could be done in Passage West but the key to opening it all up is the docklands site. It is huge and is right in the middle of what is a very narrow town. Retail is something to be cautious about in the sense that we have seen what out-of-town retail centres can do to towns. I can see the attraction of such centres from a local authority point of view in terms of rates, employment and so on but they can have a very detrimental impact on old town centres. I have even seen that happening in some city locations like Blackpool in Cork city. I am not sure we got that quite right.

Finally, in my experience, in the stronger towns and villages, while there may be pessimism or fear, people can see a future. The existential problem is in places that are scarcely even a village, places that are probably referred to as a settlement in a county development plan, where there might be a public house, a two- or three-teacher school and a few houses. We might call them villages but they would probably not be considered a village in any other country. It is in those places that there is a real fear for the future of the community. That is where it feels quite existential. I am not sure what the solution is but they are the places where people feel they are losing the infrastructure of their small community. That is where it feels really close to the bone and that is a challenge.

I am afraid I have to go now. I thank all of our guests.

Senator Murphy is next.

Thank you very much. Unfortunately I will have to go to the Seanad shortly to discuss the community of Ballymoe which is on the Roscommon-Galway border beside the Suck river. It is part of the Suck valley. The local community is campaigning for the closed-up Garda station to be used as a community hub. This is an example of the kind of thing that is happening all over the country. A number of Garda stations in Roscommon have been handed over to local communities and others may be handed over or sold to communities to develop community projects.

I welcome all of our guests this morning. It is with particular pride that I welcome the CEO of Roscommon County Council, Mr. Shane Tiernan, and his colleagues, Mr. Mark Keaveney and Ms Úna Ní Chuinn. They are leading the way on this and so much is happening, locally and nationally.

Mr. O'Brien said earlier that every town is unique and that is very true. I will be very parochial now. I live in a village called Scramoge, which is very close to Strokestown. Strokestown is my local town and I often tell the story about when I came into Dáil Éireann in 2016. I would meet a lot of people who were visiting in the company of various TDs and Senators and they would ask me where I was from and I would say Strokestown. The response I would get 90% of the time was "I passed it going to Westport". Now, I check everybody when they say that. I ask them if they ever stopped in Strokestown and the answer is "No". We have Strokestown Park House, which is now of national interest. What is happening there is amazing but a lot more can happen there. Out the road from there is Sliabh Bawn, which Roscommon County Council, Coillte and the Government have developed into a fantastic amenity. I was talking to representatives from Coillte recently who told me that during Covid 70,000 to 80,000 people walked there per annum. Some of that would have been repeat walking but even now, approximately 30,000 to 40,000 people walk there per annum. There are built-in tourism trails and an equestrian area. Our guests have been talking about history and heritage. The amount of heritage that is around Sliabh Bawn is phenomenal. The monks' involvement with it fadó was significant and this is only opening up now. We also have Rathcroghan down the road and the town of Boyle.

Sometimes in towns it is hard to get change. While I agree with 90% of what is being done, not everything is right. One of the issues that seems to cause hassle in a lot of towns is parking and a reduction in the number of parking spaces. This is a particular issue in places with really wide streets like Strokestown, which are so iconic. Sometimes it is hard to get through to members of the community to convince them that it will be done in conjunction with them, so that their wide streets will be preserved. In fairness, the vast majority of people accept that we need to change and move on. Speaking from a Strokestown, Boyle and Roscommon town perspective, we really need to sell our county because tourism is going to be really important. We need these developments.

I have a few quick questions for Mr. Tiernan. The first is about the library that will come into Boyle. Where is that at now? When is it envisaged that the library will be open? I am aware that some buildings in Strokestown are to be repurposed and I ask him to give us an update on that. The council had a presentation and launch on that recently.

Sometimes we need to reach out more to people who are pushing back and bring them with us. It is a difficult job, and it is not easy for local authority people. I see how hard our people work at it. They sometimes come up against very difficult situations. I live at the bottom of Sliabh Bawn, on which a wind farm was put. What I and others had to go through was shocking. I do not mean local people but others from outside. I can now say that the vast majority of people think it is a fantastic development. People are using it for walking and for all sorts of activity. Different sports teams use it for training. People are coming from outside. They ask me about the area constantly when I mention it on social media. Perhaps we should reach out more to people who may find it difficult to accept what we are trying to do. On a one-to-one basis, that is good thing to do. Public meetings are vital but when you move on from public meetings, the private approach to people, trying to explain to them and reassure them, is useful.

I live in the real world. Strokestown will be bypassed but I see considerable opportunities for the town. The bypass is now under way thanks to Mr. Tiernan and his staff, and the former manager. I also thank the Government in that regard because I lobbied hard with my colleagues in Fianna Fáil and others to make that happen. I see the considerable opportunities, rather than the negatives, that will result from the bypass. We have many tourism products in our area. I do not want people to be saying that the area is to be passed through when they are on their way to Westport. We want people to stop in Strokestown and discover part of an amazing county. There are many amazing things in our town. Mr. Tiernan might answer those few points.

Mr. Shane Tiernan

I thank the Senator, who has been involved in many of these projects and has been very committed to them. He makes many interesting points that go back to some of the things I alluded to earlier. Every town and village in rural Ireland is unique. This goes to the jersey and to the pride in parish and place that goes back to times long before the State was established. We can see that the people of villages and areas of a lesser or greater scale want them to survive and thrive. They have passion and belief, and rightly so. There is now a connection between the local authority and established groups. The Senator is right that it is not only about town meetings. If there is change coming about we need to explain it one to one. We have to get out there and we are doing that. We know there is difficulty. Change is always difficult for people and there is pushback. We are trying to bring in plans that we know fit with Government policy, including on climate change, centralised parking, people enjoying towns, open spaces, walking and parking for those who need it, while not allowing them to, as we used to say, drive up to the post office counter, which will not cut it in modern towns. How do we convince people of that, get a level of acceptance and adopt it in our plan? If we were able to do that at the local level, we would know that projects will tick the boxes and get the funding at Government level. We have made enormous inroads in that regard.

Senator Murphy mentioned the example of Sliabh Bawn. There was a great deal of controversy and pushback from the public at the time with regard to wind energy generation. The Senator would agree that it has come full circle and people are now harmonised with wind generation turbines. In fairness to the companies that delivered it, they invested a great deal in the communities to allow for community activity, nature trails and walks. The volume of people going there is phenomenal.

We mentioned Strokestown. A plan has been submitted under the latest call of the rural regeneration and development fund for the regeneration of Strokestown town centre. We have been doing work with the Heritage Council and with Strokestown Park House, where there is a wonderful team. It is now the National Famine Museum. We have secured multimillion euro funding from Transport Infrastructure Ireland to bring greenway infrastructure from Strokestown through Roscommon town and down to the south of the county. That project is going through the various stages.

The Senator also mentioned Rathcroghan. We are making a joint bid for it to become a recognised UNESCO site, with places such as the Rock of Cashel, the Hill of Tara and so forth. We are making a joint effort with local authorities in that regard. All of that coming together is creating significant tourism potential in Roscommon. That is where we see the future. The work we are doing with the towns and villages will, we hope, spur tourism-related enterprises, including what was previously the little shop to which people no longer go because they go to the multiples. There is certainly always a need for smaller shops in towns but there are not as many as there were. That is the piece I have concerns about for the future.

My colleague Mr. Keaveney might talk about the progress of the library in Boyle and the Strokestown repurposing, if that is okay with the Senator, to discuss where the plans stand.

Mr. Mark Keaveney

The Senator is probably aware that we appointed consultants and are in the middle of the design process for Boyle library. The overall plan is for the project to be at tender stage by the end of quarter 4 this year and for the construction of Boyle library to start next year. That project is on target and the consultants are working well.

On the repurposing of buildings in Strokestown, there is an old community building that the town team has been working to progress in line with the town centre first plan for Strokestown. That building is to become a community hub. We are working hard with the team to work with the town centre first plans, Our Rural Future and the various funding streams to ensure we are in a position to bring that project forward over the next couple of funding streams. A public development measure application is with the Department to carry out feasibility studies and prepare the planning documents, etc., for that development of a community hub in Strokestown. We are invested. It is part of the town centre first plan for Strokestown. It is a priority of the town team and community.

Ms Úna Ní Chuinn

I might add to that, and I thank the Senator for the questions. There has been an emphasis from the Department on communities developing their own plans. That is a hard sell to communities because at the end of the day, all they are left with is a document and nobody is putting a shovel in the ground. We are leaning towards the winning of that argument now because of the foresight around the town centre first plans. In the case of Strokestown, its plan contains eight transformational projects, some of which the chief referred to and one of which has recently been funded by heritage funding through the heritage town initiative. A plan is being developed to repurpose buildings in Strokestown while being cognisant of the heritage value of the town. It is tremendously powerful for us when we are carving a road to encourage people to develop plans to see the Heritage Council backing something we have identified and to see the Department coming forward with supports for what has been done. It is recognising that we have identified projects and is helping us to deliver them with communities. It is about finishing that circle and in doing so, Castlerea and other towns around the country will be next out of the blocks. They can see Strokestown delivering something, having gone through the pain of developing the plan and having gone through projects that were not easily palatable. We recently did a round of talks with town teams and we always tell them that you cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. Even in Roscommon town, where we did fantastic work for the public realm, people were discommoded. We use that word. People have to be discommoded in order to develop something fantastic. We now have something fantastic now because of people being discommoded. It is about bringing people with you while you discommode them. It is about creating linkages and how they come about.

The three speakers have made relevant points. Everybody has said that fantastic work has been done in Roscommon town. People were a little iffy at the start, as our guests know themselves. They are also aware of smaller towns, such as Elphin, in all counties that are desperately trying to get funding with the full support of their councils. That will come on stream because towns such as Elphin need funding. Elphin is a smaller town in our region and has suffered from dereliction. The people are trying to improve their town significantly. Small builders are now involved in that town and are repurposing buildings as living homes for people. That is what the centre of the town is like.

The ribbon development took the centre of the towns away. We now have to rebuild that and we all know that, and that is happening slowly but surely. Mr. Tiernan made the point that the Department can do so much and the council can do so much but we need businesses to come in and refocus in the towns. I really think people are coming back to their smaller shops and the services in their local town. That is crucial and that is important.

Mr. Shane Tiernan

I know parking is a contentious point in these new town regeneration plans and I totally understand that small businesses, which are struggling to survive in the face of rising cost pressures and everything else they have to absorb, feel very put out at times with these plans, as well as with, as Ms Ní Chuinn said, the pain during the construction phase and ultimately with the fear of the long-term implication. We are not here to eradicate parking; we are here to try regenerate our towns to make them more welcoming. If anybody wants to come to Roscommon town, it is the perfect example where we practically wiped out an entire central town parking area at the rear of the bank which is now the lovely town square with the covered space. I do not think there was ever greater footfall in Roscommon town than now because of what people are enjoying and want to see.

There is a need to have the parallel parking space at the side. It is no good getting rid of spaces and then to have nowhere to park. Obviously we are moving into a greener economy and trying to get people out of cars but cars still exist in rural Ireland. People cannot work from rural Ireland without cars. It is about creating those parking places and showing that the policy is working and to increase business volume in the towns because people suddenly are enjoying the towns and are spending.

I do not know if either the Heritage Council or the Department wanted to come in on Senator Murphy's contribution?

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

I thank Senator Murphy, who has put his finger on a lot of the key issues and challenges that underpin the approaches we are trying to implement, both locally and at central level. Projects were mentioned, such as Garda stations as community hubs. I think there is real value in them and we are trying to support them. The Senator talked about the uniqueness of towns and it is relatively easy for us to write down policies like place-based approach but it is that lived example. The manifestation of that through local examples is really useful and that drives the process.

Similarly, the Senator mentioned heritage a couple of times and it is important to reiterate that we do see heritage as a central and key part of those town centre first policies and plans. Obviously, parking is a hugely emotive issue and every time I meet with local authorities there is a lot of discussion about parking. Getting to the net gain at the end of the project can be difficult but certainly in the last few iterations of our schemes, we are seeing a lot more of those town centre first principles coming through. We see a strategic, integrated approach to what these projects are trying to do. There may be an impact on parking but one can look at the positive here and the positive there and it is a full town view, which is really encouraging to see. We have been trying to focus some of our schemes around those footfall business issues as well with town and village renewal this year.

Finally, the idea of the plans was mentioned and we need to be very careful about not creating an expectation along the lines of "here is a plan - what do you do with it?" There have to be wins, there has to be follow-through. There are funding schemes available. Sometimes that can be a bit confusing and we are trying to simplify that, which is a challenge for us. It is about getting those wins and at the oversight group for Town Centre First, we have discussed quite a lot how a plan cannot be the end of the process. Encouragingly, we saw that approximately 30% of the projects announced this week under town and village renewal have a direct link to those plans. Considering those town centre first plans have not been around for an awful lot of time, that is really encouraging. We are in the process of going through the applications for the rural regeneration and development fund and again we are seeing those phrases, "town centre first plan" town regeneration officer" repeating through them. It is really encouraging that it is not the end of the process but is the start of making a real impact in towns.

Does someone from the Heritage Council wish to make a comment?

Mr. Ian Doyle

I have two quick points for the Senator. First, whenever somebody from the Heritage Council is driving through Roscommon we always try stop in Strokestown.

I know they do. I will hand that to the organisation.

Mr. Ian Doyle

We are big supporters of the famine museum and Strokestown House, . We have a grant-giving relationship with them and have given a number of grants over recent years. We also have good discussions and good relations with the Irish Heritage Trust, which manages that property, and we are delighted to fund the plan Ms Ní Chuinn mentioned to bring some properties in Strokestown village back into use. One of the key things highlighted in the town centre first plan, and indeed something we see, is the need to build that stronger link between the museum and the town and to make sure the benefits are evenly spread. Heritage has to provide a dividend for the wider rural economy. The Senator also mentioned Rathcroghan. The world heritage site bid mentioned earlier will be a game changer if it gets across the line and it will be an example of heritage showing how it can contribute to rural development. I note that a new post has just been advertised by Tipperary County Council, which is the co-ordinating body for the bid, to help get that world heritage bid for those royal sites across the line. I also note that the heritage officer, Nollaig Feeney, in Roscommon County Council is heavily involved in that.

In terms of Rathcroghan, over a number of years in the early 2000s the Heritage Council funded an amazing series of geophysical surveys on the archeology of the mounds in Rathcroghan. While that might sound esoteric and rather specialised, we see that as the research and development that helps the significance or the outstanding universal value, which is the key term for UNESCO, to be articulated for Rathcroghan and to show it is truly of world heritage significance. We see heritage as having made that contribution and being able to make a huge potential contribution to that rural development. We have provided funding for the European innovation partnership in Rathcroghan, which I am sure the members are familiar with, in terms of the farmers. It is a locally-led scheme. We have a tender out at the moment to look at community-led landscape management. That might be one of the areas we pick because what has been done there in terms of the local community, in terms of managing the monuments and the grassland, as well as the fact it was so community driven, is a really important example that possibly is of European importance as to how really important, complex archaeological monuments can be managed through a partnership between, the locals, the local authority, the Department of agriculture and State agencies. We are hopeful that will come out as well.

I feel brainwashed at this stage. I am quite confident that by the end of the week I will have a two-night stay booked in Strokestown without me realising.

We will certainly look after the Leas-Chathaoirleach, and anybody else who wants to come.

Google has probably listened to the discussion and already pre-booked. I will be subjected to a barrage of ads.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. This is an area of pivotal importance. In the discussion of the divide between rural Ireland and urban Ireland, people are often pitched at the two opposite ends of the scale. People are told their two options are Dublin 4 or a cottage in Connemara. The reality is that 780,000 people live in towns of between 6,000 and 25,000 people. The population living in those medium-sized urban environments is greater than our four regional cities combined. Take the population of Cork, Galway, Waterford and Limerick, add them together and 780,000 is not reached. I live in one of those towns myself, Tramore, which has approximately 12,000 people. We have Dungarvan, with a population in or around 10,000, and then there are the smaller ones such as Dunmore East, Cappoquin, Lismore, Villierstown and so on. It is a false dichotomy when we project it as there only being this very rural environment or this very urban environment. Most people either live in one of those medium-sized towns and villages or are supported by them, that is, that is where they go to for their services, for their shopping, for the butchers, for mass on a Sunday, for the local club or for the school run. It is so important we get it right.

I wish to reflect on how this became national policy with a short potted history. We looked at the Scottish example first, where they have done an excellent job. I cannot over-emphasise the role of the Heritage Council and wish to give a special mention to Alison Harvey, who took a lot of those learnings from the Scottish example and brought them in through the collaborative town centre health check. It has been an outstanding example of how to achieve really meaningful community involvement that is very different from a tick-box exercise we often see when we are doing community participation.

It is actually really from the ground up and very much place-based. It is a brilliant example and now we are feeding it through to a national example. How has that process tracked from the collaborative town centre health check where one is dealing with a smaller number of projects? Will Mr. Doyle tell us if there is still a waiting list of communities that want to participate in that or has that process been mothballed now we have moved into a more formal process? We might come back to that. What are the witnesses' views on the lessons learned under the collaborative town centre health check and whether those lessons have really been learned at a Government policy level? Is that mapped through?

On heritage-led regeneration, I will be at the opening of the Garter Lane centre on O'Connell Street right in the heart of Waterford city on Friday. It is an absolutely fantastic heritage building. A good shot of money has gone into it now and is making the building fit for purpose for another 50 years at least. It really anchors the cultural quarter in that part of the city.

People very often do not necessarily understand their reasons for dwelling in a particular place. We have had the discussion around parking, which does become a hugely emotive issue. People actually do not like to dwell on the side of busy streets, especially if there is car traffic. Consider the centre of Waterford city where it has been largely pedestrianised. This has now become a place where people like to stay. Heritage is a huge part of that but it is also place-making. We need to get more. Mr. Doyle talked about some of the competencies that we are beginning to fold into our local authorities now. I believe that through active travel there is the opportunity for more expertise in place-making. Maybe that is a part we have not quite reached just yet.

I want to touch base on the experience with the town regeneration officers and how successful that has been. We have 26 officers in place now. In my county it is Richie Walsh, who is a past master of community engagement. He is working very closely with the community in Portlaw and has reached out to other communities as well. These guys are new in their roles. We are lucky in Waterford that a very experienced person stepped into it and had a huge wealth of knowledge and experience he could bring to the role. I suspect that is not the case across the board, however.

I am very happy to hear from Mr. Tiernan on how successful his local authority's public participation network, PPN, has been. Again, I wonder if that is a similar experience across the board. I have had involvement with PPNs and one aspect is that they are very underpowered. It sounds like Roscommon County Council has a very good relationship with its PPN and is giving it a pathway for its ideas to become reality. I am not sure this is the experience nationwide. Unless a PPN is facilitated by its local authority then it is not clear to me what is the pathway for a good idea to emerge from a PPN network. It could be the case that people are pushing water uphill with their local authority and not being facilitated by it. I would like to see measures around participative budgeting, for example, to really get buy-in.

We spoke about the idea of building social capital. That is hugely important. Success breeds success. Any of the really successful community groups that I know of started with a really small win. Perhaps they received €6,000 for something, maybe for painting a facade or something like that. Then they asked, "Okay, what is the next thing?" A lot of the projects that fall by the wayside are the people who put in an application for €100,000 on the first go. They just do not have the community skills to pull off that level of an application. That is really important.

Deputy Ó Laoghaire referred to above-the-shop living. It is a difficult nut to crack but it is pivotal. We must get that right. There is a school of thought out there to just rezone the ground floor and make that residential as well but then one loses a lot of vibrancy on the street if everything is just the front door of a house. The traditional model in our town square of having a retail element where people can gather creates a buzz.

I shall refer to another example in the west of County Waterford with the Blackwater economic development zone. It had a combination of a lot of these elements and these positives. Four buildings were brought into use in Cappoquin, Lismore, Villierstown and Tallow. It was connected up and it was really ambitious to take such a punt on this kind of working space and to be able to pull that off in a rural environment. All four of them now are tenanted. Three of them are in old heritage buildings. I am thinking in particular of the post office in Cappoquin. I am not sure anything else would have been able to bring that out of dereliction and back into the centre of the community. It is very positive.

I shall distil these points into specific questions. How has the experience been for the town regeneration officers? How has the initiative been with regard to buy-in? Are we really getting to the people we need to get to in the community? What is the sense of how the Heritage Council's collaborative town centre health check model has tracked into what we are seeing now in the town teams? From a local authority point of view can we have some comment on empowering the PPNs and a comment on the need to empower local government? Reference was made to co-funding models and borrowing. I believe a lot of that is down to the fact that local authorities are underfunded and underpowered in making decisions themselves locally. Perhaps the witnesses would comment on that. Will the Department officials respond first?

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

The Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned the false dichotomy between rural and urban. We in the Department could not agree more with that. We are fairly confident that this is reflected in Our Rural Future. We do not see it as rural or urban, or rural versus urban. When we write a rural development policy we see it as issues of national development, national well-being and national growth.

On specific questions, the Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned the health checks. We are very conscious that we are sitting on the foundation of those Heritage Council health check programmes that were put in place. That is a key focus for the national office and the town regeneration officers at the moment.

With regard to how we are moving on with the regeneration officers on the ground, at the start there was an element of announcing the funding and then actually going through the process of recruitment. That took a while, including the setting up of the national office and setting up the town regeneration officers. Certainly we feel there is real momentum there now. There is a real engagement at local level and the town regeneration officers have basically taken the ball and started running with it, which is fantastic.

I will hand over to my colleague Mr. Andrew Forde, who deals a lot more closely and directly with the national office and the town regeneration officers through the national network, to put a bit more flesh on those bones.

Mr. Andrew Forde

To build on what Mr. O'Brien has said, the logic of this whole town centre first intervention has been around establishing engagement with the communities, trying to understand the specificities of every rural town, developing a vision and an associated plan, and then funding that in an appropriate way over time. We are seeing a very clear and concrete impact by the appointments of the town regeneration officers, supported by a very competent national town centre first office, which is becoming a centre of excellence when it comes to these issues.

We see the town regeneration officers as a key linchpin between the local authority, the community and the relevant Departments, including ourselves and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. They are the eyes and ears on the ground. They are the ones who understand the opportunities, the limitations, and the capacities of local authorities. They can guide the town teams to develop plans that are meaningful, appropriate and achievable for their particular area.

We have 26 town regeneration officers in place. We have gone through a process of the town centre living initiative, in which six towns were involved, including Boyle. The Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned Cappoquin. We should note that Cappoquin was the first town to win the town centre first award under the national Tidy Towns competition this year, which is a new initiative. Our intention is to work now to develop more plans and for another tranche of towns to take part.

The point has to be made, which goes back to a comment by Mr. Doyle earlier, around the importance of building capacity within local authorities. This is where we see the role of the town regeneration officer to really develop that capacity from within, to carry out the more comprehensive health checks, to help town teams to develop their plans accordingly, and to draw the linkages and make the connections right across local government.

Will Mr. Doyle come in on the tracking question? I always get the abbreviation wrong. It is the collaborative town centre health check, CTCHC. Will Mr. Doyle comment on how it is mapped with the town teams now?

Mr. Ian Doyle

The Heritage Council and the staff member the Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned helped to develop this.

In the Heritage Council we see it very much as a programme that we developed and incubated. We note that the actual Town Centre First policy document had a commitment to mainstreaming this. I would argue that the emphasis of the town centre first network and the regeneration officers has been on getting established, building momentum and getting their plans together. The town centre health checks programme has been critical in helping them to achieve that momentum and informing the development and delivery of those plans. Regarding a waiting list, we have since reviewed our role in terms of planning. We are a prescribed body. While we were concentrating very much on health checks, we were not fulfilling our role as a prescribed body as far as we felt we should. As a result and as the commitment is there and it is more closely within the remit of the town centre first, TCF, office, we have concentrated our planning resource - we have one planner - on our status as a prescribed body. We have been commenting on very large-scale planning applications and local area plans, including the recent Roscommon local area plan. That is where we have been putting emphasis. We do note the comments about the national office building upon those health check foundations.

In relation to local authority empowerment, I am interested in hearing from Mr. Tiernan about the council's PPN.

Mr. Shane Tiernan

Certainly. I might share this answer with my colleagues. As I said in my opening piece, since 2014 the local authorities have had a changed face in respect of their interaction with communities. Their linkages to economic and community development have been hugely enhanced thanks to changing policy. We cannot do it alone. Local authorities have 1,100 services. There is a directory online showing 1,100 services across all the divisions. For that to work and for us to have the funding to stretch across 1,100 services, we very much need buy-in from the ground up. This is what I said about the PPNs playing such a pivotal part when the right combination is there. That means for us as a local authority - from me right down - getting out there to meet the groups and the people and to encourage them. The importance of having a strong PPN facilitator who knows where groups can feel discommoded, where their concerns are forgotten or can come from and what is about but also letting them see tangible results and successes, is paramount. I also then push back a little and say it is also about the groups having the right members on the PPNs. I say that because I often have noticed, when you go into a particular meeting and without characterising this too strongly, how a detractor can take the energy out of the room. That is important. In reality the majority are in a different vein but we need to realise that. We have to be collaborative in that there has to be positive energy coming to the PPN, coming to the room and allowing us to be the conduit or connector to these groups. Be it through funding, policies or mechanisms, we have to be able to allow their development in that collaborative way. I do not want to hear, "why is the council not", what I want to hear is "what can do with the council to make this work." I will pass this question to my two colleagues but we have made great inroads in recent years, particularly in the development of our new local economic community plan, which Ms Ní Chuinn led on and where the PPN played a pivotal role in formulating as a strategy document.

I will finish on this point, which brings another element into the picture but we took an approach with our local development company, Roscommon LEADER Partnership and with our newly established climate action team in the lovely setting of Lough Key Forest Park. I am promoting Roscommon again. Last week, we decided to have a triple-policy launch night to launch our new climate action plan for the county, our local development strategy and our local economic and community plan, LECP. The room was buzzing, we filled the place out and we were over capacity. People were really energised. It was not just more documents and reports; it was real tangible plans that are going to shape Roscommon to be a really strong county in the future. Is there anything Ms Ní Chuinn could add to that?

Ms Úna Ní Chuinn

On the PPN specifically, we have to say we are very lucky. We have come through years where the relationships may not have been as good as they are now. We have a very good worker and this goes back to what the Department has said about how it does matter who is in those jobs and the relationships they develop. We have a very active PPN which is well-supported, which is very involved and which delivers. We have also made it a criterion of funding that we deliver to the local authority that one must be a member of a PPN in order to access funding to try to link up what we are trying to do with what they are doing and we are lucky that this has worked very well for us. Members might not have gathered from what we have said so far, but we get on very well in Roscommon with everybody, even the LEADER company. As for the PPNs, the relationships matter - we all know that - in all of our work.

On the point of the town regeneration officers, TROs, and the experience of the TROs, I will follow on from what the Department said. The national office has been significant in supporting the TROs and in guiding the work, as well as in establishing the network of TROs working together that is now in existence. As was said, there is a TRO officer in Waterford who is very experienced. When one is new to the job and have that kind of experience to bounce off, it is really good. We are well resourced in Roscommon and as Mr. Tiernan mentioned earlier, we have a regeneration team. We have engineers, technicians and people who can analyse a project and run with it. They can run with contracts, do procurement and put something in place on the ground. Lots of TROs do not have that because of the make-up of the local authority. That resource needs to be in place to get those projects running because otherwise they are dependent on colleagues in other departments who are busy doing other jobs, to do that job.

As for the health checks, we have done health checks in a number of towns. Carrick-on-Shannon for example has used students from Belfast. They have put them up overnight. It is really cheap but they have done a health check that has mattered to their community. We are following suit in trying to do that.

The last point I wanted to make is on a point made earlier about the architectural conservation officer. That is a key role that our local authority needs to fill because we are now in the process of using consultants to deliver services to us that we, had we the expertise in-house, could do ourselves and probably do really well. In the case of local authorities like Donegal, the work it has done in Ramelton has borne great fruit because it has a conservation architect. There is great excitement about that. If we could make that happen, then we have rounded the circle again in relation to the heritage and the streetscapes and being cognisant of what is important in a town. Those are some points that might be useful.

Mr. Mark Keaveney

I have a small point to add to that. At the risk of reiterating what was already said, the PPNs work because of the people involved and the relationships built up. Also over time in Roscommon, there has been a building up of town teams. The people in town teams are also involved in PPN groups and communities that form the PPNs. The Chair mentioned that a little bit of money leads to a little bit more capacity. That is what built up the very effective PPN network in Roscommon. With regard to the TRO post, the critical thing for it as far as I can see and the way it works in Roscommon very well, is that the TRO is not a post or a person by him or herself. In Roscommon, the TRO is part of the regeneration economic team. That means it is a shared resource. Instead of one person trying to make contact with five other departments, there is one person in a team of ten and they all work together as one. That is crucial to making the TRO post work and to making the town centre first policy effective in Roscommon. Indeed outside of the town centre first policy, it feeds into all the other funding streams that we have. There is cross-pollination and they are all similar objectives. We are all working towards the same plans overall. That was the main point I wanted to make.

Does Mr. Nicholson wish to come in?

Mr. Robert Nicholson

I thank the Chair. Deputy Ó Laoghaire mentioned earlier the governance structures in our local decision-making capacity. On a national level in terms of rural policy, we are fully trying to make sure that that place-based approach rings true. As part of the OECD review that we referred to earlier, its representatives will be here on mission visits over the six to nine months and we have specifically asked in the terms of reference that they do some analysis of our governance structures in terms of the national down to regional assemblies and the regional assemblies down to the local. They will assess how at a local level, vertically but also horizontally, PPNs, LCDCs and LECPs link in with regional assemblies, local authorities and all of those things together.

We would, of course, have heard there are pockets in all of these areas that perform really well and there are weaker areas elsewhere. We will ask it to look at this and it will give us a root-and-branch analysis of it. Some of this has to do with skill sets, resilience in communities or leadership. There are certainly plenty of lessons we can learn on how to tidy up some of the structures we have in place. Some of them are still quite new and the dynamics are still forming. We see this as a big piece of work on Our Rural Future in giving a spit and polish to how our governance structures have operated to date and trying to remove some of the rough edges.

I want to bring to the attention of the committee that last year the OECD published a review of regional attractiveness it had conducted with the Department of housing. This pointed fairly strongly towards some of the issues that have been highlighted about local authority capacity to make decisions and provide flexibility and revenue raising capacity. This speaks to some of the points that have been made about some restrictions that apply at present with regard to access to finance. This will absolutely be a key part of our work over the next 12 to 16 months.

It goes to the contributory principle around taxation. People feel much more positively disposed towards spending their taxation if they can see the effects of it in their local environment. Local authorities have a crucial role to play in this. Collaboration is very important to avoid creating a structure where it feels like it is where good ideas go to die. There are plenty of examples of community engagement where the boxes are ticked but it moves on and it is not really open. It sounds very much like that what is happening in Roscommon is meaningful engagement with the local community and it is beginning to show results.

This has been a very useful engagement. This concludes the committee's business in public session. I thank all of the witnesses for their contributions. I propose that the committee goes into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.12 a.m. and adjourned at 11.37 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 May 2024.
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