The Order of Business is No. 1, Finance Bill, 2000, Second Stage, to be taken to its conclusion with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 30 minutes and other Senators not to exceed 20 minutes, and Senators may share time. Business is to be interrupted from 6.15 p.m. until 7 p.m.
Order of Business.
The Order of Business is agreed as far as I am concerned. I want to raise one issue on the Order of Business, that is, the bizarre and unprecedented remarks of the Taxing Master of the High Court on the tribunal process. Tribunals, as the House will be aware, are established by the Houses of the Oireachtas in the public interest and there is a well established way in which they go about their business. No doubt the remarks of the Taxing Master have cast a doubt over the probity and the effectiveness of the running of tribunals. The use of words such as Frankenstein do nothing but convey an impression that there is something wrong with these particular tribunals. We in this House should have an opportunity to examine in more detail why these remarks were made and why Mr. Flynn was making them in that particular case.
This is the second occasion on which Mr. Flynn has been found behaving oddly in a political case. Only a couple of weeks ago a High Court judge overturned a judgment he had made involving the De Rossa case and the judge expressed concern at the way in which the judgment had been made.
We need to know much more about what is happening. There is a way we can do that. No. 16, motion 6 on the Order Paper in my name, which was put down quite some time ago, calls for a debate on the tribunal procedures and whether the tribunal mechanisms can be made more effective and more cost effective. They can and must be made more effective. I do not ask for the debate today, but I ask the Leader to allow No. 16, motion 6, which is a neutral item, to be debated in the near future in order that we can raise our concerns about the Taxing Master's behaviour and about the question of tribunals.
I want to raise three issues. We need a clear commitment from the Leader of the House on the ordering of the Shannon River Council Bill, 1998. It has gone through Second Stage and all the groups on this side of the House have discussed it. We believe it should be dealt with now. We can wait no longer on this matter. It is time it was put on the Order of Business and dealt with. I would like the Leader to give a clear commitment this week as to when the Bill will be taken.
The same applies to the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill. We still do not know where the Bill stands or what Government policy is. If there is a problem we should be told about it, and if it needs to be amended it should be amended. The reality is that issues covered in the Bill, such as broad banding which the country will need to allow its economic development continue as planned, need to be examined.
The other issue I wish to raise is refugees and the continuing row about the Taoiseach's statements. As far as I am concerned, this is not a political issue. I do not particularly care what the Taoiseach said in Australia or what his interpretation of that is now – people can lob that issue across the floor of both Houses. However, I want to know exactly what Government policy is in this regard, what the proposals and plans are and how the issue will be dealt with. If possible, I want to be reassured that what we are doing is humane and acceptable. I ask the Leader to prioritise this issue when ordering business so that we can have a clear understanding and undertaking from the Government regarding how it will be dealt with.
The Order of Business is agreed. Like Senator Manning, I would welcome a debate on motion 6 and on asylum seekers.
I join with others who have asked for a debate on asylum seekers and immigrants, not so that we can get involved in the current arguments but because I feel there are a number of issues which must be raised, including housing, illegal immigrants and the Mafia which is running young children to every crossroads on the way into Dublin. Young people who look like 11 year olds with babies in their arms are begging at crossroads. Perhaps they are holding babies, but I guarantee that they are being delivered to these locations and that they are not—
Delivered?
They are being delivered to these crossroads by a group of people. On Grafton Street these same people are taking money from those who are playing music or are begging, and something must be done.
I want a debate on how best to deal in future with the natural problems arising in the world, such as in Mozambique. There have been natural disasters since the world began, but of late we know about them immediately and major calls are being made to set up fast response groups in different areas. I do not think that it is possible to do this, but we must examine how we can best deal with some of these situations and co-ordinate aid which is sent to affected areas following a disaster. Unfortunately, the newspapers and the media are milking the system in terms of the amount of money being spent in advertising by various bodies looking for funds to go to these places. There should be a co-ordinated effort on a worldwide basis. There is no way that anybody can set up a rapid response unit which will be capable of dealing with every natural disaster in the world, but it is about time we addressed the problems and examined how best we can deal with them.
I share Senator Manning's concern about the remarks of the Taxing Master. I wish to reflect on what happened to the separation of powers which I thought was a clear principle in public life. It is indeed very odd that a member or quasi-member of the Judiciary should place these strictures on the Oireachtas and its functions. I strongly support the call by Senator Manning for a debate on motion 6 regarding tribunals. This House is the proper forum in which to hold such a debate.
The note circulated to our office said that tomorrow the House would meet at 10.20 a.m. This seems a little odd and perhaps it was a printing mistake. I assume we will be meeting at 10.30 a.m., or perhaps there is a special reason for starting at 10.20 a.m. I would not like to be even later than I sometimes am.
I know it would be inappropriate for me to pay an additional tribute to Deputy Ferris, a former Senator, but like the rest of the House I was very fond of him. The manner of his passing raises the pressures on those involved in public parliamentary life. I wish to move from a tribute, which I did not pay, although it is in my heart, and ask the Leader to examine the position regarding the health profile of Members of the Oireachtas and the pressures they are under because a number of people have died in very sudden circumstances while I have been a Member of this House.
I listened with interested to Senator Lanigan's comments on asylum seekers. I welcome the musicians in Grafton Street as they add greatly to the colour of the area. I have no problem with them. It seems a little bizarre that, on the one hand, we are releasing gunmen and, on the other, talking about interning asylum seekers. It suggests that there is something a little odd about our values.
I support Senator Manning's call for a debate on the comments made by the Taxing Master. The tribunals were established and their terms of reference agreed by the Houses of the Oireachtas. There should be an element of accountability when a public servant comments on such bodies in the manner in which Mr. Flynn did because it is totally out of order and we should debate the issue. Senator Manning stated that No. 16, motion 6, on the Order Paper could accommodate such a debate and I appeal to the Leader to facilitate him.
I hope that the Leader can afford time as soon as possible to discuss Government policy on immigration and asylum seekers, in particular. One expects a more responsible approach from the Taoiseach than that which emanated from the southern hemisphere over the past week.
I refer to the Shannon River Council Bill, 1998, which has passed Second Stage. I appeal to the Leader to provide time for Committee Stage to be taken. If the Government does not provide time, we will have no choice on this side of the House but to proceed during Private Members' time.
Some months ago I asked the Leader to draw the attention of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to the huge delay in driving tests, the large number of provisional licences and the fact that the number of cars showing L-plates seems to be increasing. There has been no reduction in the number of provisional drivers and the delays are continuing. Ireland has the highest number of provisional drivers in comparison to any other country. Action can be taken in this regard to prevent deaths on the road. It is in our own hands and we should do something immediately.
I also support the call for a debate on the recently reported bizarre comments of the Taxing Master. It was a broadside against our democracy by someone in a privileged position whom many of us think should know better. We pride ourselves on the Constitution which guarantees fair procedures and due process for all citizens. As Senator Manning stated, under No. 16—
Senator Coghlan, we are not having the debate now.
I appreciate that fully.
Are you supporting Senator Manning's request for a debate under No. 16 on the Order Paper?
Yes, No. 16, motion 6, fits the Bill.
Will the Leader arrange a debate in the near future on the price of petrol? Members have raised this issue previously but the prices of petrol and diesel have got out of hand completely. If the lowest and highest prices of both are compared, the difference is more than 30 pence per gallon. The Government should do something to reduce the price of petrol, in particular. A number of years ago its price was increased by 10 pence per gallon in order to generate funds for country roads but the current Exchequer surplus—
Senator Burke, I am sure that you could find a way of relating this issue to the debate on the Finance Bill, which will take place shortly.
Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I was trying to impress upon the Leader the urgent need for such a debate.
You will have an opportunity in the next hour or so.
I support the request for a debate on the recent comments by the Taxing Master in relation to the tribunals. If one were to read some of the columns in our national newspapers today, and The Irish Times, and see what the public thinks of the tribunals, we might have a different opinion in terms of their function and what they achieve. Rather than have a roller-coaster debate, we should have a debate in which we can make constructive comments that would satisfy the general interests of the people we represent and provide better accountability in a process that should be fair and equal to everybody. The article by John Waters in The Irish Times today is worth reading because it is fair to say that the tribunals have generated a momentum of their own that is unstoppable.
Those points can be made during the debate which has been sought.
I support the call for that debate. I also support the call for the debate on refugees. It is time legislation was put in place to deal with that issue and that must be done in a fair and equal way. Serious issues have to be addressed, however, and it is time the State dealt with those in a proper, organised way.
Senators Manning, Norris, Taylor-Quinn, Coghlan and Chambers called for a debate on motion 6 on the Order Paper in the names of Senators Manning and Connor and on tribunals in general. I will allocate time for such a debate in the coming weeks.
Senator O'Toole inquired about the Shannon River Council Bill. I will endeavour to come back to the House on Thursday morning regarding the next Stage of that Bill and also the Telecommunications Bill.
Senators O'Toole, Costello, Lanigan and Taylor-Quinn called for a debate on the Government's policy on refugees. I can facilitate the Senators in that regard. Senator Lanigan also called for a debate, as he did some weeks ago, on the best way to deal with crises in countries such as Mozambique. I will make available time for that also.
Senator Norris expressed views regarding the pressure public representatives experience and also the smoother operation of the Seanad. A sub-committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is currently involved in a review of the Seanad. This is an area we are very conscious of and we hope to address it in that report.
Senator Quinn raised the problem of the long delays in the driving test procedure. I will allow time for a debate on that matter. Senator Burke called for an urgent debate on oil prices. The Minister for Finance will be in the Chamber this afternoon to deal with the Finance Bill, 2000, and the Senator can discuss that matter with him then. I agree with Senator Burke's view when one considers that in areas only five miles apart there can be a difference of up to 30p in petrol or diesel prices. That is unfair and the Government has a responsibility to do something about it.
Order of Business agreed to.