Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 7 November 2012
6. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Minister for Defence his response to claims by the outgoing President of PDFORRA at its recent conference that, because of cutbacks, the Defence Forces are not fit for purpose; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48495/12]
Amharc ar fhreagra14. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Defence the resources he has provided for the re-skilling of members of the Defence Forces and if he will demonstrate that they are adequate at this time. [48461/12]
Amharc ar fhreagra20. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Defence in the context of the reorganisation of the Defence Forces, the criteria for relocating a member of the Defence Forces from one post to another. [48460/12]
Amharc ar fhreagraI propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 14 and 20 together.
Again we are coming back to the issue Deputy Ó Fearghaíl raised earlier. I am sure Members will not be surprised to hear me say that I absolutely reject the claim of the former president of PDFORRA. The Government remains committed to maintaining the capacity and capability of the Defence Forces to undertake the roles assigned by Government within an establishment of 9,500 serving personnel. Against that background, I tasked the Secretary General of the Department and the Chief of Staff to bring forward proposals for a reorganisation of the Defence Forces. Having considered the matter in detail, I accepted the proposals of the Secretary General and the Chief of Staff that the Army component of the Defence Forces be reduced from a three-brigade to a two-brigade structure. A three-brigade structure, which had originally been designed for a force of 11,500, could not be sustained in the context of maintaining numbers at 9,500 without impacting on the capacity of the Defence Forces to deliver the services required by Government. A reorganisation of the Air Corps and Naval Service within their reduced strengths as set out in the employment control framework is also being finalised as part of the reorganisation.
Crucially, the representative associations in the Defence Forces, including PDFORRA, have been closely engaged in the implementation planning process as part of the Croke Park agreement and have had significant input into the planning of the ongoing implementation process. A detailed implementation plan, which has been the subject of extensive consultation with the representative associations, has been finalised and issued to formation commanders and made available to all members of the Defence Forces. This plan sets out the assignment criteria for members of the Defence Forces whose current appointment is directly impacted by the reorganisation. These criteria cover such areas as whether the individual holds the rank of the appointment in question, has the required qualifications, had to change station due to barracks closures in the past four years and his or her length of service in the Defence Forces.
Training requirements arising from the reorganisation will only become fully apparent as personnel are allocated appointments in the new structure. Relevant military personnel, in conjunction with the directorate of Defence Forces training staff, are identifying the skills gaps resulting from the reorganisation and reassignment process as it is being implemented. Detailed planning for the training effort required will be incorporated into the development of the 2013 annual training directive. The training plan will be structured such that it can be delivered within the training resources available at formation level and within the Defence Forces training centre. The plan is to fully complete all retraining and reskilling requirements arising from the reorganisation within an 18 month timeframe.
The Government recognises that the reorganisation currently underway is a major change in the organisation and structure of the Defence Forces. The extent of it should not be underestimated. I am cognisant of the demands we are placing on members of the Defence Forces. However, it is important that now the decision has been made, we move quickly to implement the reorganisation and provide certainty for personnel. I am advised by the Chief of Staff that the reorganisation will be largely completed by the end of November 2012.
We are, I suppose, at this stage going over ground we have already covered. As such, I will be brief.
The Minister spoke about the demands which the reorganisation is placing on members of the Defence Forces. It is important to say that Defence Forcse personnel are dealing with this reorganisation and are looking to the Minister's promised White Paper which may bring further reorganisation. What is the current strength of the Defence Forces? Perhaps the Minister would also give us some indication of the reaction of serving members to the demands of the reorganisation. As I understand it, many young, talented and highly skilled personnel, in which the Department of Defence has invested heavily in terms of training and upskilling, are actively leaving the Defence Forces resulting in a significant loss of experience and talent which will be a serious blow to the future development of the Defence Forces.
I am not aware that a large number of skilled personnel are actively disengaging from the Defence Forces. There has been no evidence to this effect since the announcement of the reorganisation. Retirement from the Defence Forces exceeded 500 in the first two months of this year. However, this derived from the facility available under the public service arrangements put in place to enable individuals to retire by 29 February while retaining pensions based on the previous salary position. As regards the current strength of the Defence Forces, the Deputy will be aware that as a consequence of recent retirements agreement was reached on the recruitment of 600 new recruits to the Defence Forces. Following analysis at the end of February, a gap in officer grade and of ordinary listed personnel was identified. In June last, we advertised for 600 new recruits to the Defence Forces, in respect of which we received more than 10,000 applications. Given the number of applications and the need to properly examine them, including undertaking the normal processes of medicals, interviews and so on, it was September before those to be recruited were identified. In excess of 400 new recruits are currently in training. The objective is to bring the strength of the Defence Forces as close as possible to the 9,500 target by the end of this year. Deputy Mac Lochlainn will be aware that this issue was raised and discussed at some length today during our discussions on the Defence Forces Supplementary Estimate.
PDFORRA represents the overwhelming majority of our Defence Forces personnel. It is important we take its analysis seriously, in particular the quotations of its general secretaries and outgoing presidents, some of which Deputy Ó Fearghaíl has already highlighted.
In recent years, the Army barracks in Mullingar, Castlebar, Cavan, Lifford, Letterkenny and Longford have been closed, which has sapped the morale of the Defence Forces personnel in terms of their having to relocate and the impact of this on their families. It is stated in a media report today that 56 2nd field engineers, who are also known as the searchers who assist the Garda Síochána in dealing with gangland and gun crime, are being relocated to Athlone, as a result of which their response time will be quadrupled. Members of this House who represent areas wherein the Defence Forces are based will have received representations on this issue.
Morale in the Defence Forces has been sapped, not alone by this Government but by the process, over the past couple of years. I had the honour last week of visiting Collins Barracks in Cork with other members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality where I saw first-hand the professionalism and commitment of our Defence Forces. While there we were taken out on the L.E. Ciara by the naval force, the personnel of which are visionary, professional, innovative and dynamic. We must let our Defence Forces personnel know that we value the role which they play and will try not to turn their lives up-side-down, in terms of retraining, forced relocation - that is what is happening whether we like it or not - barracks closures and so on. The Minister cannot offer a blanket defence all of the time to what we are hearing from the people on the front line.
We have moved a wonderful distance in this country. I do not mean that sarcastically. It is particularly interesting and important that Sinn Féin is concerned about the future of the Defence Forces and its operational capacity. For a long time Sinn Féin Party members did not recognise - at least their predecessors did not - the Defence Forces and often saw some of them as targets. It is refreshing to hear Deputy Mac Lochlainn's concerns.
We are involved in a reorganisation which has resulted in some barracks closures. People are uncomfortable with change. We cannot continue to operate the Defence Forces in the year 2012 on the basis on which they operated in the 1980s or early 1990s. Change is inconvenient. It does affect people. However, membership of the Defence Forces involves change. Very often a promotion involves relocation to a new barracks. People in the Defence Forces have opportunities to develop a range of skills. There is an understandable resistance to change but this change that is being effected is one that members of the Defence Forces should celebrate as it provides new opportunities and ensures we can maintain strength at 9,500, thus not degrading the Defence Forces through reduced numbers. There would be no benefit in keeping barracks open with inadequate numbers. This is about learning the lessons of how Defence Forces can best operate.
As regards personnel and how they will be affected by the reorganisation, individual preferences to serve in particular geographical locations will be considered in the context of maintaining Defence Force capability. In so far as practicable every serving member whose unit is being moved will have the opportunity to move with his or her unit or to take up a new appointment within or close to his or her existing location. Every effort will be made to accommodate members of the Defence Forces. Inevitably, some personnel will have to change location in order to fill appointments in the new organisation. However, every effort is being made to minimise the impact of this. Decisions in respect of all affected locations and units are currently being worked out. The reorganisation is being dealt with in the context of consultations with the representative bodies.
When it comes to identifying whether a particular unit with particular skills should be located in Cork, Athlone or Dublin, I must rely on the operational judgments and expertise of the Chief of Staff and those working under him.
I am not, as Minister, going to take it on my shoulders to assume I have the military expertise to know where to properly locate individuals. Prior to our announcing the location of the headquarters of the two brigades a substantial campaign to maintain brigade leadership in Athlone was conducted. Certain guarantees were given that the numbers in the barracks in Athlone would be approximately 1,000. I understand it will work out at between 970 and 980 in practical terms, as there is always some movement. This results in Athlone barracks having a larger number of members of the Defence Forces located there than when I took up this position. When Deputy O'Dea was Minister the maximum number of members of the Defence Forces in Athlone was 900. I will not second-guess operational decisions either with the Chief of Staff in the Army or the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána. It is for the Chief of Staff to determine how best to implement the re-organisation and to decide where particular skills or capabilities should be.
When I say there is opportunity in all of this for members of the Defence Forces, those who want to acquire different skills will have an opportunity, where appropriate, to change units. Certainly some members will be asked to move to a different location in the context of the re-arrangement being made, but this is not a new thing in the Defence Forces. When one joins the Defence Forces one does not join on the basis of being positioned in a particular barracks for 21 years. This is not the way it works in practice, it is not the way it could work in practice and is not the way it works in practice with any army, navy, air force or defence force anywhere else in the world.
Unfortunately the Minister referred to Sinn Féin's position on the Defence Forces. I am very proud of our Defence Forces. I am proud of the role they have played throughout the world in peacekeeping. I am deeply sorry that in periods in history they were brought into conflict with republicans due to the conflict in the North of Ireland. It was a great tragedy. I am very proud of our Defence Forces and I am proud of the role they have played in our communities and of the role of the Reserve Defence Force. I want to be very clear on this. Fine Gael, the law and order party, which absolutely berated the previous Government on these issues is now telling us that PDFORRA, which represents members of the Defence Forces on the front line, is wrong and irresponsible when it speaks about the impact on its members. Soldiers cannot say these things due to their position and must speak off the record to the media to say this will have an impact on their ability to support the Garda in tackling crime. One cannot ignore this. The law and order party of Fine Gael, which relentlessly berated the previous Government about these matters, is now telling us that is a different world. It now says that these organisations, which it freely quoted in the Chamber in the past, are now not worth listening to. Come on.
We might do well not to politicise these discussions as much as we have been doing today. The Minister has a job of work to do to convince representative bodies of his commitment in this area. I accept his intentions are positive but it might be useful if he could report to us at some stage that he has been actively engaging with the representative bodies. He did not attend the annual conference, and perhaps he might have been able to communicate more effectively his position on this if he had been there. He was ably represented by the Minister of State. It would be good for the Minister to engage as directly as it is possible for him to do.
I have met PDFORRA in the past. I attended a previous conference. The Minister of State attended the most recent conference. It is very valuable and important that he is engaged in this matter. With regard to the suggestion I do not listen to PDFORRA, the representative bodies are very important in the Defence Forces and they have been very constructively engaged in addressing a series of issues. I distinguished the constructive, helpful and informative engagement that takes place most of the year and of course there will be disagreements on some issues. This is the nature of the way the world works when one has a representative body on one side and a Department on the other. I like to constructively work through issues when they arise. I merely made the comment that unfortunately when it comes to annual conferences people say things or perhaps exaggerate complaints because of the atmosphere these conferences create-----
A bit like political party conferences.
-----or perhaps the need to ensure the media, who are absent from the Chamber today, take some notice of an issue relating to defence.
I very much welcome Sinn Féin's support for our Defence Forces. I recognise its recognition that on this side of the island there is only one legitimate army, which can call itself Óglaigh na hÉireann; its recognition it should simply have a political wing and no longer have a military wing; and the fact that the military wing does not exist. I welcome all of this. However, let the Deputy not re-invent history. The Defence Forces were not drawn into an unfortunate conflict which was taking place in Northern Ireland. Conflict took place in Northern Ireland. It was a conflict of murder and mayhem in which many people lost their lives who should never have lost their lives and in which the Provisional IRA was fully engaged and saw the Defence Forces of this State as its enemy-----
Absolutely untrue.
-----in so far as either the Defence Forces or the Garda Síochána sought to engage and through investigative work and intelligence work curtailed the ambition of those who existed on this island who were committed to killing other people. Let us not rewrite history but let us also not dwell on history because-----
You just rewrote history yourself. You did a fine job.
It is much better that we have these rows in this Parliament than re-engage in other areas.
What about the murder and mayhem in Israel? What about your friends in Israel who are responsible for murder and mayhem? You welcomed the Minister. What about those people who commit murder and mayhem in Palestine when you are welcoming the Minister?
Deputy please. We have finished with the question.
I am not sure what relevance Palestine has to our discussion on the Defence Forces.
You endorse them fully so do not use words like murder and mayhem when you endorse that type of approach in Palestine.
The Deputy should not articulate prejudices in this Parliament.
No. Your factual statements-----
Could we have some calm please?
The Deputy should not articulate his prejudices in this Parliament.
Statements of fact you have made on the record.
Order please.
