Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 22 June 2011
6 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will outline consultations which he has held with political parties and non-governmental organisations regarding proposals for constitutional amendments. [16286/11]
Amharc ar fhreagra7 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the reason no consultations have been held with Opposition parties and groups concerning the establishment of the citizens’ assembly. [16292/11]
Amharc ar fhreagraI propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 7 together.
Work is proceeding in my Department on the preparation of proposals for a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad and the setting up of a constitutional convention. When these proposals are ready, they will be considered by the Government. Once proposals for the setting up of a constitutional convention are approved by the Government, I propose that they be the subject of consultation with the Opposition parties and other appropriate stakeholders.
The proposal to abolish the Seanad was signalled by the Government parties prior to the general election. The programme for Government contains a commitment to put this question to the people in a referendum. The Dáil and the Seanad will, of course, have an opportunity to debate fully the necessary legislation when it is published.
The Taoiseach did not answer Question No. 7. Question No. 6 deals with constitutional amendments, while Question No. 7 relates to the establishment of the citizens' assembly.
What I said was that when the constitutional convention criteria are set out, there would be discussions with the Opposition parties. The same will apply to the citizens' assembly. We will discuss with Deputies Micheál Martin and Gerry Adams and other leaders the range, scale and intent of what is involved.
There are two separate questions. To deal with Question No. 6 first, there are three constitutional amendments to be voted on in October. While the Taoiseach seems to focus on the particular issue of the abolition of the Seanad, three constitutional amendments have been committed to. However, there has been no consultation on the principles or details with any party in the House, which is regrettable. The Taoiseach gave a commitment to engage in greater consultation, but he is actually providing for less consultation on these fundamental issues.
With regard to the public vote, the Taoiseach has said that the Referendum Commission should be given much more time to prepare information for the public. Again, however, he is providing less time in the context of the forthcoming referenda. Will he explain why the promised consultations have not taken place? When exactly is it intended to deal with the details of the three referenda?
They have not taken place because the Bills have not yet been drafted. They will give rise to thorough and comprehensive consultations. The Government has decided to hold a referendum in respect of the Abbeylara judgment and the issue of whistleblowers because I do not want to preside over an Oireachtas with toothless committees. We all share a view on the need for accountability, transparency and responsibility. One of the things that was sadly lacking in previous Dála in the past 25 years was the ability to provide for the compulsory attendance of and complete confidentiality for persons who brought to the notice of public representatives matters that should have been in the public domain. For that reason, the Government has decided as a priority to hold these two referenda on the same date as the Presidential election. I can confirm that work is proceeding seriously to have the Bills drafted. Deputy Micheál Martin and others will be consulted on them. The same applies in the case of the third referendum to be held on the question of judicial pay. The Deputy will be appropriately consulted, as will others, when that Bill has been drafted.
Actions speak louder than words.
They do.
We are not being consulted — that is the point. The Taoiseach stated in the programme for Government that as a matter of practice there would be consultations prior to the drafting of Bills and other legislation. However, there has been no attempt to do this. I would have thought that, in the context of a profound matter such as a constitutional amendment of the type the Taoiseach has outlined, consultation with political parties would be facilitated. When will the House deal with the three referenda? When does the Taoiseach expect to bring the Bills before the House? Will it be before the recess or in September?
To enable the referenda to be held, the Bills must be processed by a date in September. I hope they will be published as soon as possible and that there will be an opportunity to engage in a thorough discussion, a point on which I have been clear. When we come back in September, there will be changes to the structure of Dáil reform. There will be discussions about that either this week or next week with Opposition leaders to implement changes to make this place more efficient and professional but, in advance of that, in one or two cases, Ministers will refer the heads of Bills to the appropriate Oireachtas committee for political reaction and discussion. That has never happened. When heads of Bills are drafted and circulated, they stay inside the circle until the Bill is published. The Ceann Comhairle, in a previous existence, was always clear that there should be an opportunity for Oireachtas committees to give a reflection from a political perspective on the heads of Bills when they are drafted. That will happen from September in every case but it will happen in a number of cases before then. Oireachtas committees will be consulted and the Members can give their views — good bad or indifferent — about the proposals contained in the heads. In the next week, the Government Chief Whip will meet Opposition leaders and Whips about a range of changes in the way the Dáil works but, in advance of that, the heads of some Bills will be referred to Oireachtas committees for their consideration.
Sinn Féin supports political reform and I have listened over the years to what the Taoiseach has said on this issue. I have said on the record that I agree with a great deal of what he says, including that reform should be citizen-centred, accountable and transparent and it should be based on equality and fairness. It is important to step back every so often to figure out how these institutions and how we work in the interests of the people who send us here and also to reflect on the gulf that has been created between citizens and the political classes.
The Taoiseach made a number of commitments. He committed to a citizens' assembly but there has been no consultation whatsoever. I do not even know how consultation will work. In the programme for Government he also called on citizens to be involved in this. There needs to be a debate about these institutions. Political reform cannot be reduced to whether we retain or abolish the Seanad. As a relative newcomer, I can see clearly how stultifying this place is and how a Government, particularly one with such a large majority, despite its best intentions, could just go ahead and ignore what is being said by the Opposition. When will there be a process of consultation? What form will it take? Can citizens, Opposition Members and even Government backbenchers have some ownership of that process?
If not ownership, certainly participation. There will be consultation directly with the Deputy and other leaders when the structure is put in place. I would like this to happen quickly and I will see to it that it happens. I do not want to give the Deputy an exact date for this but he can take it that he will be invited to participate fully in those discussions and to debate them in the House in due course. Why would I not do so? Every Deputy is sent to the House on the same basis and they are fully entitled to participate. I want this Chamber to move away from the rigid structures of the past and to allow people to give of their views about the kind of country we live in now, the changes evolving before our eyes and the kind of country our children will have to manage and take responsibility for over the next 20 years. A Dáil that does not appreciate that it must change the way it does its business to reflect a more modern Ireland will fail in its duty and that is why I have referred to, for instance, the change to send heads of Bills to committees in advance to help make the legislative process more effective, meaningful and consultative.
I hope we do not get back to these questions without progress being made on my behalf. That is my responsibility and I will revert to both party leaders shortly.
Question No. 7 concerns the citizens' assembly. Given consultation is its core purpose, the fact that we have had no consultation is remarkable. It is supposed to be legislated for over the next four weeks. Does the Taoiseach accept that will not happen? Can he explain what will be done before the legislation is published or passed to ensure the assembly is properly established and has appropriate terms of reference?
Before I draft the final structure and terms of reference for the assembly and it becomes enshrined anywhere, party leaders will be consulted for their views on them. That will happen quickly.
