Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 May 2001

Vol. 535 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 123, motion re leave to withdraw Labour Party Private Members' Bills; No. 49, Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Report and Final Stages (Resumed); No. 50, Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No 2) Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; and No. 51, Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill, 1999 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight; business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; and No. 123 shall be decided without debate. Private Members' Business shall be No. 122, Motion re Cancer Services (Resumed) to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal relating to the late sitting agreed?

Mr. Quinn

We are opposed to the late sitting on the grounds that the Order of Business is incomplete. At his first Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis as leader and president of the party, approximately four years ago, the Taoiseach promised to introduce legislation on standards in public office. In June of last year, that Bill, having been drawn up in a most complicated manner, was finally published and before Second Stage could be taken, the Bill was sent to a committee for consideration. It has not been returned to the House and we have not had a Second Stage debate on it. Until such time as this Bill – the Government's only item of legislation dealing with this area – and the various other Bills that are necessary to have enacted before the next general election to allow us to fight the campaign on the grounds of openness and transparency, we are not prepared to proceed with the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

I agree that the Order of Business is not complete, particularly as the European Environment Agency has clearly stated that Ireland has failed abysmally under the stewardship of the Government to decouple greenhouse gas emissions and economic growth. I see no sign, other than platitudes uttered on infrequent Adjournment debates, that the Government is able to deal with this issue. There is nothing on the Order of Business to indicate that it intends to address this issue, which – with the exception of the energy centre Bill, which is not designed to effect realistic change in this area – does not appear to be on its programme.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must put the question. Is the proposal relating to the late sitting agreed?

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. S. Brennan)

There is a response prepared in respect of the Standards in Public Office Bill which, if they care to hear it, would be useful to Opposition Members.

Mr. Quinn

Let us hear it.

The Taoiseach

On yesterday's Order of Business, a vote took place in relation to the Children Bill – which is due to come before the House next week. The Standards in Public Office Bill is awaiting Order for Second Stage and it is scheduled to be taken this month.

Mr. Stagg

We have been hearing that for the past two years.

The Taoiseach

It is scheduled to be taken this month. Deputy Quinn referred to the legislation relating to this issue which must be taken by the House. There are ten such items of legislation: the Electoral (Amendment) Act, the Local Elections (Disclosure of Donations and Expenditure) Act, and Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, which have all been passed; the Prevention of Corruption Bill, the Standards in Public Office Bill and the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 2000, are all before the House—

Mr. Howlin

They have been before it for years.

The Taoiseach

The Bills are before the House and they must be passed. The Audit of Allowances of Parliamentary Leaders Bill is due to be taken this session and Second Stage of the Local Government Bill, 2000, is due to be resumed. The memorandum relating to the lobbying Bill is to come before the Government shortly and the Whistleblowers Protection Bill, sponsored by Deputy Rabbitte, is awaiting consideration by the select committee. All ten items, in one form or another, have either been before or are due to come before the House. I contend that they represent probably the most comprehensive range of legislation before any parliament in the world.

Mr. Quinn

A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed?

Mr. Quinn

I wish to ask a further question.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot contribute again. The Taoiseach has proposed the motion before the House and the Deputy has spoken to it. The Deputy cannot speak twice on the same motion, that is a basic rule.

Mr. Quinn

May I reply to—

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Quinn

Then you leave me no option, Sir.

Question put: "That the proposals for the late sitting be agreed."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Daly, Brendan.Dempsey, Noel.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.

Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel. O'Hanlon, Rory.

Tá–continued

O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.

Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Burke, Ulick.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Enright, Thomas.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.Hogan, Philip.

Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The late sitting is agreed to. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 123, the motion re leave to withdraw Labour Party Private Members' Bills agreed to? Is it being opposed?

Mr. Quinn

We do not oppose that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Agreed. I will now take leaders questions.

Mr. Noonan

Today is national children's day. I would like the House and the Taoiseach to note that the Government has failed to provide adequate secure places for children who have difficulty with the law, that the Government has yet to appoint an ombudsman for children, that one in four children are living in poverty, that 1,250 children are homeless in the Dublin area alone, that there are 4,000 annual cases of physical and sexual abuse against children, that those in care are still not getting adequate care and attention, as illustrated in the Newtown House report, that there are 64,000 children with serious literacy problems at school, that there are 3,000 children who leave school without qualifications each year, and that there are a total of 33,000 children who have special needs in our schools. Many of those children have not been identified and others do not have any remedial attention. In light of the fact that this is national children's day, will the Taoiseach put it to the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Hanafin, that the House would be interested in making progress on this list of embarrassing failures?

Mr. Quinn

Would the Taoiseach agree that one of the resonant phrases from the 1916 Proclamation is that of cherishing all children equally and that we need to look at the deficit in the provision of child care. Unfortunately, there are too many deficits. For many years these deficits were justified by the lack of resources available. As that impediment is no more, will the Taoiseach bring forward a comprehensive set of measures to deal with this enormous deficit so that we can cherish all the children of the nation?

The Taoiseach

On the legislation mentioned by Deputy Noonan, the Children Bill will be before the House next week and the Bill concerning an ombudsman for children is due this session also. All issues on the children agenda may not be solved and one reason for that is that there will always be new aspirations. The Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Hanafin, has for the first time in the history of the State acquired the resources to build an enormous amount of new accommodation for children with difficulties.

In recent years, we have been able to target resources through families in deprived and disadvantaged communities to help those in need. This has been facilitated by the excellent organisations involved in child issues in these areas. This targeting of resources will have to continue for some time because, as Deputy Quinn mentioned, all of the children of the nation have not been cherished equally and many were previously dealt with in centres, orphanages and institutions. Resources were not provided to the organisations who deal in this area. That has changed and Deputy Fahey, in his term as Minister with responsibility for children, began many useful projects which have now been carried on by Deputy Hanafin. This does not just concern investment in bricks and mortar through the capital programme, but the provision of child care workers, psychologists, and others in the health and child care areas.

Deputy Noonan would be the first to acknowledge that at last a Government has dealt with the issue of homelessness. At last, the resources have been given to deal with homelessness—

Mr. J. Mitchell

This is unbelievable after four years in Government.

Mr. Shatter

Where are the resources?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order in the House.

The Taoiseach

This problem was not dealt with. There was absolutely nothing spent by the last Government in this area.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Taoiseach is not living in the real world. He should knock on a few doors in the real world and he will see the problems that exist.

The Taoiseach

Proper facilities have been developed and we have excellent plans on a nation-wide basis for dealing with these issues.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Where are the facilities? The Taoiseach should come to my locality to see what needs to be done. This is just rhetoric.

The Taoiseach

I can understand the position of Deputy Mitchell and others who represent this city. Nothing was done by their colleagues—

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Noonan

It is appropriate, on the day that Members assembled at Arbour Hill to commemorate the patriot dead of 1916, that Deputy Quinn reminded the House of the Proclamation which committed the new nation to cherish all its children equally. On this national children's day, some 85 years after 1916, it is an absolute disgrace that the leader of an Opposition party must read out such an appalling list of failure in the fourth year of a Government. This is an attempt to get it to take action about the 1,250 homeless children on the streets of Dublin, about the one in four children in poverty and about the 66,000 children who leave school without literacy skills. Will the Taoiseach return to the drawing board? Does he realise that little can be done when responsibility for children crosses seven Government Departments? In the dying days of this Government, will he bring forward a realistic plan to deal with the plight of so many needy children across this broad range of issues?

The Taoiseach

I am sure Deputy Noonan supports the elements of the national strategy for children which was launched last autumn. The resources provided for that are not adequate in all senses but they provide child care workers, bricks and mortar for facilities, people to work in disadvantaged areas, and the resources to support an excellent strategy which, for the first time ever, not only involves all the child care organisations in the State but also children themselves. I thank the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Hanafin, for her efforts. She is the first Minister since the foundation of the State to bring in such a comprehensive plan.

Mr. Shatter

The Taoiseach recognises that Deputy Fahey did nothing in his three years in the position.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach will be aware that a newspaper report was published on Saturday last to the effect that there was major fraud among sheep farmers in County Louth. Some 100 out of 175 farmers were examined following the disaster of foot and mouth disease, which affected the entire country but particularly County Louth. This examination revealed massive fraud on a scale that some suspected but most were shocked to see details of. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that the solidarity between town and country is not undermined by gangsters in any part of our society or economy undermining the trust of this community and defrauding tax-payers in the process? Urban and rural dwellers not directly engaged in agriculture have shown extraordinary solidarity in an attempt to successfully stamp out foot and mouth disease. The aforementioned gangsters may be responsible for the disease coming into this jurisdiction. What action does the Taoiseach propose to take to ensure the crisis does not recur?

Mr. Noonan

When the issue of fraud and sheep smuggling, particularly in Border areas, was raised previously, the Taoiseach informed the House that he believed such activity would not occur in the absence of the involvement of paramilitary organisations. Will he name the paramilitary organisations he believes are involved?

The Taoiseach

In terms of the action taken to prevent a recurrence of this crisis, a Bill containing strict penalties was unanimously passed in the House and its enforcement will be very important in ensuring people do not continue to take chances in this area for relatively small amounts of money. Prior to the foot and mouth crisis, I was not aware of how small are some of the amounts involved.

Regulations have been passed in regard to traceability and tagging. This will be a mammoth task entailing the tagging of up to seven million animals. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development held a detailing meeting yesterday on these issues with representatives of farm organisations and agreement was reached on all the control mechanisms involved. I hope it will not be necessary to enforce the legislation.

There is significant evidence of the involvement, to one extent or another, of paramilitary groups from all sides in the smuggling of animals, fuel etc. in the Border region. The Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Defence have stepped up Army and Garda patrols to address this activity. This is an ongoing problem. At least one shipment of sheep moved into six or seven counties throughout the country. Resources will be required to detect this activity in the future. If we are to ensure our good name in the area of animal exports to EU and world markets, we must provide for the traceability and secure transport of animals in line with normal practice. The Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Defence and Agriculture, Food and Rural Development have discussed these issues regularly in recent months as they have arisen time and again in the all-party group dealing with foot and mouth disease. This area will continue to be monitored when the foot and mouth crisis has passed. Some of those identified as having an involvement in this activity do not have any paramilitary associations.

Mr. Quinn

In spite of the Taoiseach's comprehensive reply, he was somewhat wide of the mark. If a company director is found to be in breach of the law under certain circumstances, he or she cannot become a director again in another company. It is time, in the interests of decent farmers, we did likewise in regard to farming. Legislation must be introduced to achieve this. Companies and small shopkeepers throughout the country are subject to Revenue Commissioner audits for which 48 hours notice is not provided and directors found to be in breach of company law are prohibited from taking up subsequent directorships. Will the Taoiseach give a clear indica tion that the 48 hour notice provision will be waived and, more specifically, that rogue farmers who behave in a criminal manner will have their licence to farm or entitlement to subsidies removed? I understand this is also the view of the ICMSA and IFA, a view which is in everyone's interests.

The Taoiseach

The Minister has the power, under legislation, to take such actions and also has additional powers extending to forfeiture, the ultimate penalty to be applied to rogue or criminal farmers.

Mr. Quinn

Those farmers can re-enter farming; the position is not the same as that which applies to company directors.

The Taoiseach

A farmer's entire assets can be forfeited if the authorities and courts deem it necessary to do so. I take the Deputy's point that farmers could move around, but that will not prove easy for those who lose their entire holdings. The forfeiture penalty is the most severe which can be applied.

Mr. Quinn

Farmers involved in these activities should not be allowed to farm ever again.

An Ceann Comhairle

Under Standing Orders, the Deputy is not entitled to intervene again.

The Taoiseach

The position is similar to that which applies in regard to criminal assets where a person's entire assets can be seized. I will ask the Minister to consider the possibility of imposing restrictions on people's ability to re-enter farming, but the penalties which currently apply are more stringent than those the Deputy seeks.

Mr. Noonan

I understand tests carried out in Magherafelt have proved positive for foot and mouth disease in, at least, one instance. Will the Taoiseach confirm this and indicate whether the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development intends to introduce any amendments to the regulations tomorrow arising from this news which is very bad for the entire country, particularly County Derry?

The Taoiseach

I understand one case has been confirmed in Magherafelt and that there are other suspect cases. The expert group will meet tomorrow morning to consider the matter. The Northern Ireland First Minister, Mr. David Trimble, informed me last Friday that a comprehensive examination of all sheep flocks in the Glens of Antrim and the Sperrin Mountains would be undertaken this week due to concerns that they could contain various strains of the foot and mouth virus. We must remain vigilant in this area.

Mr. Noonan

Does the confirmed case involve cattle or sheep?

The Taoiseach

Sheep.

Mr. Noonan

How far is the farm from the Donegal border?

The Taoiseach

The Minister informs me that the exclusion zone does not extend as far as the Border.

Mr. Rabbitte

On the recommendation, endorsed by the Government, from the Committee of Public Accounts in regard to the establishment of an Oireachtas Commission, will the Taoiseach outline when the relevant legislation will be published?

The Taoiseach

In the middle of the year.

Mr. Rabbitte

This year?

The Taoiseach

Yes, it is expected to be published by the autumn.

Mr. J. Mitchell

When will the Standards in Public Office Bill, 2000, be enacted?

The Taoiseach

It will come before the House in two weeks time and there is no reason it should not be enacted before the summer.

Mr. Gilmore

The newspapers reported at the weekend that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government intended to abolish the dual mandate in 2014. In the light of this new information, will the Taoiseach tell us when we are likely to take the Local Government Bill in the House?

The Taoiseach

The legislation will come before the House in a few weeks time.

Mr. Shatter

The public hearings of the sub-committee dealing with the Abbeylara incident pursuant to orders of the House have been put on hold pending a decision by the secretary to the Government on the application made by members of the ERU to be exempted from giving evidence. A report in one of today's newspapers states that members of the ERU are no longer seeking such an exemption and are willing to co-operate with the sub-committee. Has the secretary to the Government received any communication indicating that members of the ERU are no longer seeking an exemption from giving evidence to the sub-committee undertaking the work ordered by the House?

The Taoiseach

I have read the report referred to by the Deputy. While the matter has been raised with my Department, it has not been confirmed.

Ms McManus

Last night the Minister for Health and Children appeared to blame people's lifestyles for the problems being experienced in the health service and the failure of the Government to deliver a quality health service for all. Is the core problem that we are drinking and smoking too much? Will we deal with the public health and tobacco Bill, due to be published soon, this session?

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be published this session. I do not know, however, if it will come before the House this session.

Ms O. Mitchell

In view of the serious slippage in the delivery of various aspects of the national development plan, in particular the road construction programme, and given that the Planning and Development Bill is the main plank in the Government's bid to end the infrastructural deficit, when will the Bill be implemented in full?

The Taoiseach

The Planning and Development Bill.

Ms O. Mitchell

Yes.

Mr. Hayes

In 2015.

Ms O. Mitchell

There is an urgency about its implementation.

The Taoiseach

We dealt with all sections of the Bill last year.

Ms O. Mitchell

When will it be implemented?

The Taoiseach

Regulations are being introduced by way of the various sections. The Deputy will receive information on the sections involved if she tables a question to the relevant Minister. The Bill has been enacted. There are five sections and dates involved.

Ms O. Mitchell

Five years.

The Taoiseach

Five sections.

Mr. Shatter

Has the Minister not planned for the—

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should ask the Minister.

Ms Shortall

Three years ago, the Taoiseach issued an apology to the victims of abuse in State institutions and established the Laffoy commission which is currently inquiring into the matter. Another element of the State's response was to establish a compensation tribunal. I note from the list that the legislation is entitled Residential Institutions Bill which seems to imply that the Taoiseach is excluding victims who—

An Ceann Comhairle

That issue is not one for discussion. The Deputy must confine her question to the timing of the Bill.

Ms Shortall

It is promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Questions must relate to the timing of the taking of the Bill, not its content.

Ms Shortall

The new title of the Bill suggests that the State is excluding day pupils at the schools in question.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss what is being included or excluded.

Ms Shortall

Will the Taoiseach confirm that that is the case and explain the justification for not providing for compensation for those abused in day schools?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should pursue the matter in another way. It is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Ms Shortall

When can we expect the legislation to come before the House?

The Taoiseach

This session.

Ms Shortall

Are students of day schools being excluded from the Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not an appropriate question.

Ms Shortall

Will the Taoiseach answer my question?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Coveney.

Ms Shortall

Is that the case? Did the Taoiseach's apology mean anything?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Coveney.

Ms Shortall

Will the Taoiseach answer my question?

An Ceann Comhairle

It would not be in order for the Taoiseach to speak. I have called Deputy Coveney.

Mr. Quinn

Another U-turn.

Mr. Coveney

Will the Taoiseach clarify the Government's attitude towards the introduction of mandatory ID cards for young people in the light of the continued high level of street violence in our towns and cities? On more than one occasion the Minister for Health and Children has shown support for the idea which could help to reduce the level of under-age drinking. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has, however, continually shot it down. The introduction of ID cards could be provided for in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Where does the Government stand on the issue?

The Taoiseach

While the heads of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill are expected in the next month or two, the Bill will not be enacted for some time. What the Deputy is seeking is a voluntary scheme.

Mr. Howlin

In section C of the published list, the ground rent Bill has moved from the status of being "under consideration in the Department" to the status of being given "a publication date early in 2002". Would the Taoiseach be prepared to submit the heads of the Bill to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights in advance of publication in order that we might make progress on the Bill this year?

The Taoiseach

Work on the Bill is progressing in the Department. The heads are not yet complete.

Ms Fitzgerald

Yesterday, another judge expressed concern at the delay in establishing the human rights commission. What priority is being given to establishing the commission on a statutory basis?

The Taoiseach

It is hoped that the necessary legislation will be passed before the summer recess.

Mr. Naughten

When will the House discuss the Road Traffic Bill, 2001, on Second Stage? We must debate the humiliating situation where the national drivers database has not yet been put out to tender.

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be taken at the beginning of next month.

Mr. S. Ryan

Given the scandalous delays being experienced by the general public in gaining access to public hospitals and in accident and emergency units, when is it proposed to introduce the medical practitioners Bill? Does the Taoiseach believe that it will deal with the shambles that is the health service?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask a relevant question.

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be introduced early next year.