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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Feb 2015

Vol. 866 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

In terms of the Government's approach to the establishment of a commission of investigation into allegations of misconduct in the Cavan-Monaghan Garda division, I wish to raise a number of issues. In general, I suggest to the Taoiseach that there should be broad consultation with the Opposition prior to the lodging of the terms of references before the Dáil. Having reflected on and observed what has transpired, it seems to me that the only Deputy who persisted in trying to influence the outcome was a member of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Alan Shatter, a former Minister. He wrote to the Taoiseach, as acknowledged last week, and to the Ceann Comhairle requesting he be excluded from the terms of reference of the inquiry. It was also his view that the tabling of the motion and the subsequent debate would encroach upon the courts.

I find this very odd, given that in his resignation letter to the Taoiseach on 7 May 2014 - a letter he published - Deputy Shatter said: "It is appropriate that these matters be the subject of a statutory inquiry." He also said he was resigning because he did not want to distract from the role of Government or create any difficulties for the Fine Gael and Labour Parties in the period leading up to the European and local government elections. If he is not careful, he will continue to cause difficulties, right through to the general election, but that is another matter.

It would be incomprehensible that the terms of such an inquiry would not include the relevant Minister. The core issue is the persistence of a Member of Parliament, a former Minister, to seek to try to restrict and stifle debate on a matter of fundamental, public importance and to do that in a context he knows well, that Parliament under the Constitution always has the right to propose and the right to dispose. Did Deputy Shatter approach the Taoiseach personally about this issue? Does the Taoiseach think it is appropriate that a Member should seek to undermine the capacity of the Parliament to debate matters of public interest in such a manner?

I have seen the correspondence and call on the Taoiseach to publish the correspondence Deputy Shatter sent to him. Is he prepared to do that? Did Deputy Shatter speak to the Taoiseach at any stage in regard to this matter or did he speak to the Minister for Justice and Equality on the matter? I note Deputy Shatter wrote to the Ceann Comhairle initially on his own notepaper and that this communication was subsequently followed by legal representation. I understand from what the Taoiseach said last week that it was a legal firm that wrote to him. Did Deputy Shatter write to the Taoiseach in his own capacity as a Deputy and will the Taoiseach publish that conversation?

Deputy Shatter writes about the separation of powers in the correspondence, but he is straddling, in a selective manner, both domains when it suits. I respectfully suggest he should make his mind up as to where his duty lies and consider why he was elected to this Parliament in the first place. I suggest it was to facilitate free and open debate and to articulate the will of the people, not suppress it.

First, in respect of the question about consultation with Members on the terms of reference before their being tabled in the Dáil, I respect completely the independence of the Ceann Comhairle in the decision he made and I am glad that matter has been cleared up.

The Government had scheduled a two hour debate for Wednesday, 28 January on the commission of investigation in respect of the Cavan-Monaghan Garda division. This debate was to be taken by the Minister for Justice and Equality. However, in a letter of 27 January, the day before the proposed debate, the Ceann Comhairle informed the Minister for Justice and Equality of his ruling. He was perfectly entitled to make his ruling. The important point is that the Government had already decided there should be a commission of investigation.

In the normal process and procedure followed, the terms of reference are adopted and approved by Cabinet and are laid before the Dáil by the Whip in the ordinary way for discussion and approval by the House so that the commission of investigation can start up and do its business. In this case, I believe that given the Ceann Comhairle's ruling, it was more important that the work of the commission of investigation should be able to proceed. Therefore, the terms of reference were adopted by the Dáil. Mr. Justice O'Higgins has been appointed to conduct the commission of investigation and the commission can now start its business.

I have instructed my officials to publish on merrionstreet.ie all of the correspondence received from the firm of Gallagher Shatter Solicitors by the Department of the Taoiseach and the replies to that correspondence. As Deputy Martin pointed out, observations were made by the firm that the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence should be excluded from the terms of reference.

As Deputy Martin will see, the replies from the Department of the Taoiseach are clear and consistent. That observation was not taken into account and the terms of reference accurately reflect the terms as set out by Mr. Guerin. There are one or two words where this is absolutely clear in the terms of reference adopted by the Dáil. I have instructed my officials to publish all of that documentation so that people can see the position, from 9 September when the firm wrote to the Department of the Taoiseach.

A reply was sent from the private secretary of the Department on 7 November. A further letter was received from the firm on 17 November, repeating that the terms of reference should not include a reference to the former Minister for Justice and requesting written confirmation of that. On 19 November, the Cabinet approved the terms of reference, which covered all of the areas recommended by Mr. Guerin, including in regard to the former justice Minister. On 21 November, a letter was sent from the private secretary of the Department to the firm, informing it that the draft terms of reference had been approved by the Government and that these would be presented to the Houses of the Oireachtas in the ordinary way. On 25 November, a further letter from the firm objected to the Government's approved terms of reference. On 8 December, a letter, enclosing a letter from the former Minister to the Ceann Comhairle objecting to the terms of reference which referred to him, was received from the firm.

He must have been practising for his next book.

On 17 December, a letter from the private secretary of the Department of the Taoiseach was sent to the firm rejecting its arguments and reiterating the Government's decision to proceed with the commission of investigation with the terms of reference unchanged.

Did he take Christmas off?

I have instructed my officials to publish all of this documentation, so that Deputy Martin and everybody else can have sight of it.

I asked the Taoiseach two questions at the outset. Is it appropriate that a member of the Fine Gael Party, a Dáil Deputy, should be so persistent in endeavouring to change the terms of reference and prevent debate in the House on a matter of such public concern? I also asked whether the Deputy approached the Taoiseach or the Minister personally on this matter. Apart from in written communication from him or his legal firm, did the Deputy approach the Taoiseach personally on the matter during this period?

Perhaps he might indicate whether he approached him on the issue. Did he approach the Minister? Is that the totality of the communications involving Deputy Alan Shatter or his legal firm? Has he written today or in the past day or two? I know that he has communicated again subsequently - I believe to the Ceann Comhairle's office. - but has he communicated with the Taoiseach on foot of his decision? Did he make a personal approach to the Taoiseach at any stage?

It seems the only person who had a persistent, consistent engagement on this issue is Deputy Alan Shatter and no one else.

I said in writing.

He would not say, "No."

This is a very serious issue in respect of serious matters brought to my attention by Deputy Micheál Martin, brought to light by a whistleblower and brought to attention here by others in regard to matters in the Cavan and Monaghan district and in respect of the Government's decision to set up a commission of investigation into how they were handled by the Garda, the Department of Justice and Equality and the former Minister for Justice and Equality. It arises from the Guerin report and the terms of reference that have been set. Deputy Alan Shatter has not written to me and has not approached me personally. I called him out of a parliamentary party meeting last year to ask him how he was getting on in view of the fact that he was no longer Minister for Justice and Equality.

We did not discuss the terms of reference for the Guerin inquiry.

That is a matter for the Government. The Government has been very clear on the position it adopted and consistently followed through in the passing of the terms of reference here in order that the commission of investigation could start its work and deal with the very serious matters outlined in the reports brought to light last year. I cannot speak for Deputy Alan Shatter or any other Deputy in the House who wishes to make constant or repeated contact with Ministers or members of the Government or anybody else.

What is the Taoiseach's own view?

It is not for me to issue instructions to any Deputy to cease writing in that sense.

What is the Taoiseach's view?

Was it right or wrong?

As a Parliamentarian, what is the Taoiseach's view?

Yes, but no more than any Fianna Fáil Deputy who wishes to make contact with Departments and Ministers on a regular basis.

That is not in the same league.

I know it is not-----

The Taoiseach is the leader of his party.

-----but, as I say, this is a serious matter.

Was it right or wrong?

The commission of investigation has now been set up.

It goes to the core of parliamentary democracy.

The Taoiseach is leader of Fine Gael.

The terms of reference have been very clear. The Government was very consistent in setting out what it wanted to do. Despite the correspondence which will be published after I leave the Chamber this evening, the Government was very consistent in ignoring any of the observations made on the exclusion of the former Minister from the terms of reference.

He is trying to influence them.

Deputy Micheál Martin will see that it is also included specifically in the Government's decision setting out the terms of reference-----

But was it appropriate?

-----that I will also publish.

It is important that the Taoiseach reminded us of the events around the whistleblowers' allegations and the way the Government had responded to them. It pooh-poohed, dismissed and slandered an Teachta Dála Mick Wallace for raising these issues. Without taking up too much time, we know the chronology that led to the retirement of a Garda Commissioner - the Taoiseach's words - and the resignation of the then Minister for Justice and Equality. When this issue came up last week, if the Taoiseach had had his way, we would not have had this discussion. We now know that there was a voluminous amount of correspondence-----

Withdraw that remark.

-----between the Taoiseach and Deputy Alan Shatter. I asked the Taoiseach at least twice formally if he had received any correspondence from Deputy Alan Shatter, if his Department had received any, if the Ceann Comhairle had received any or if any other agency had received any, but he refused to answer. He only answered eventually when pressed. Now we hear about all of this correspondence. As I said the other day when I contested the Ceann Comhairle's advice, my main issue was with the Taoiseach and the Government for not reordering the debate at another time in the schedule. While I am no historian of this Parliament, it seems unprecedented - perhaps the first time in the history of the Parliament - that terms of reference of a commission of inquiry were pushed without one word from any Teachta Dála, not just Opposition but also Government Teachtaí Dála.

If I might summarise, it strikes me that a member of Fine Gael is able to prevent a debate on these issues because the Taoiseach refused-----

It was not our decision.

It was not our decision.

The Taoiseach could have met the leaders and outlined the problem as it was seen. He could have allowed for the discussion to take place and explained the letters. He then made a virtue of necessity and is now going to publish the letters as if it was a mighty act of kindness on his part. That discussion could have been held in private with the leaders of the various groups in the Dáil. Alternatively, the Government Whip could have had it with the other Whips. It is now clear that rather than dealing with the issue as it should have been dealt with transparently and as part of the democratic revolution to which the Taoiseach aspires he just tried to ram the whole thing through.

I disagree with the Deputy. On 27 January the Government Whip informed the other Whips of the decision and ruling of the Ceann Comhairle that no debate would be allowed on the terms of reference which the Government had tabled for discussion. I fully accept the Ceann Comhairle's decision in that regard.

I would not be aware of whether the Ceann Comhairle or anybody else was in receipt of correspondence. Deputy Gerry Adams asked me if I was aware that the Ceann Comhairle had received correspondence. I was not so aware, nor could I have been.

If the debate was to be reordered, obviously, there would be a very different story. This is a serious matter about the conduct of some gardaí in the Cavan and Monaghan district in regard to a number of very serious matters brought to attention by a whistleblower and brought to the attention of the House. After this morning's Cabinet meeting I signed the order setting up the commission of investigation under Mr. Justice O'Higgins. The terms of reference were finalised on 17 December.

Of course, the former Minister for Justice and Equality is a member of the Fine Gael Party. It is not a case of a member being able to prevent a debate. Deputy Gerry Adams is now fully aware that the Ceann Comhairle in his constitutional office and independence made his ruling and that that ruling was carried. That matter has now been cleared up. The Deputy is wrong to suggest a member of a party, in this case, my party, was in a position to prevent a debate from taking place. That was a separate decision made independently by the Ceann Comhairle.

The more important point is that the Government made a decision to set up a commission of investigation. It adopted the terms of reference set by Mr. Guerin. It ignored and did not take into account the submissions being made for the exclusion of the former Minister for Justice and Equality from the terms of reference. It was quite clear that the commission of investigation would examine the method for the conduct of the examination of the issues raised by gardaí, the Department of Justice and Equality and the former Minister for Justice and Equality. The Sinn Féin Whip was informed of the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle on Tuesday, 27 January.

I gave an instruction today that the correspondence from the legal firm and the replies to it from the Department of the Taoiseach be published. As I said to Deputy Micheál Martin, Deputy Gerry Adams will see consistently throughout the correspondence that the Government was not in any way bound by observations made by a legal firm. The terms of reference and the decision of the Government reflect this very accurately.

The Ceann Comhairle has very graciously acknowledged that there could be another interpretation of Standing Order 57(3).

He said he was going to summon the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, which is what the Sinn Féin Whip, Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh, proposed should happen. He did so in writing to the best of my recollection. To hide behind the Ceann Comhairle in light of his statement today defies any logic. I asked the Taoiseach whether there was correspondence from Deputy Alan Shatter with the Taoiseach or any agencies. He did not answer me and when I pressed him he gave me a grudging response. Let us compare that with what we have just heard today. I may have received this letter inadvertently but the Taoiseach said he did not know of any correspondence between the Ceann Comhairle and others. I have a copy of a letter supplied to me by the Ceann Comhairle to the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. This was discussed at Cabinet. Was the Taoiseach not apprised of it? I cannot recollect if the Ceann Comhairle wrote to the Taoiseach on these matters but Deputy Alan Shatter definitely did. What is the law firm to which the Taoiseach referred? It is Gallagher Shatter Solicitors. A response on behalf of the Taoiseach to Deputy Alan Shatter, showing the courtesy and relationship enjoyed between the Taoiseach's Department and a member of Fine Gael, states:

A copy of the draft Order, with the Terms of Reference attached, is included herewith for your information. The next step is for the draft Order to be presented to each House of the Oireachtas and that will take place shortly. The Government considers that the matters set out in the Terms of Reference are matters of significant public concern.

This is the correspondence between the Taoiseach and the Fine Gael backbencher, Deputy Alan Shatter. Is the correspondence and the context not also a matter of significant public concern? Was the Taoiseach not failing in his duty as Taoiseach in not answering the question I put to him about any correspondence he may have received from Deputy Alan Shatter or, as I carefully said, anyone acting on his behalf? Deputy Enda Kenny is the Taoiseach and I am a duly elected mandated Member of the Oireachtas. This party represents citizens. Is it not a matter of significant public concern for them that the Taoiseach failed to tell us and, by extension, the citizens that he had voluminous correspondence with Deputy Alan Shatter?

Let me clear up any misunderstandings for Deputy Adams. Sometimes in here, there is a lot of noise. I had one letter with me last week, which is relevant to something I just said a few minutes ago. I said I was not aware of any letter or any correspondence the Ceann Comhairle received from Deputy Alan Shatter. In fact, the letter sent to my Department on 8 December from Gallagher Shatter Solicitors contained a copy of the letter sent to the Ceann Comhairle. From that point of view, I want to correct the record----

There we go, the Taoiseach was aware.

Absolutely, Deputy Adams. As I just had that correspondence with me last week, perhaps I was not able to be as accurate or fulsome in my response as I could have been.

It is called arrogance.

That is why I think it is appropriate, in this matter of great importance, that I publish all correspondence from the legal firm of the former Minister for Justice and Equality to the Department of the Taoiseach and the responses that were sent back, including the publication of the decision of the Government, which makes it clear to the Cabinet that correspondence was received but that the Government was not shifting from its consistent position of the commission of investigation being able to follow through on its view of the conduct of how the serious matters were dealt with by the Garda Síochána, the Department of Justice and Equality and the former Minister for Justice and Equality. My apologies to Deputy Adams if I was not as accurate as I should have been in respect of a matter brought to my attention when the letter sent to the Ceann Comhairle was forwarded to the Department of the Taoiseach with a covering note from the legal firm on 8 December.

The Taoiseach had it and would not tell the Opposition.

Today, Irish Water issued its fourth deadline for people to register their details. People have a fourth chance to register with them in April. Apart from it being a subversion of the English language, does the Taoiseach agree it is another sign of desperation on the part of the Government and Irish Water? It seems the Labour Party and the Labour Minister have as flexible an attitude to deadlines as they have to election promises to not impose water charges. Despite giving people four chances, does the Taoiseach agree that issuing 2.1 million packs and receiving fewer than 900,000 is an abysmal failure?

The Deputy's figures are wrong.

It is a registration rate of less than 50% despite the best efforts of the Taoiseach. That is accompanied by the €100 people get for doing nothing but registering with Irish Water. The Government should not take it as any guarantee that those people will pay the bills when they arrive in April.

Will the Taoiseach proceed with his despicable plan to steal money for Irish Water from council tenants and private tenants in the State? The Taoiseach wants to turn councils and landlords into debt collectors for a semi-State company. Judging by comments made this morning, it seems the Taoiseach wants to turn landlords into bullyboys of their tenants to get them to pay Irish Water. When is the Taoiseach planning to introduce this item of discriminatory legislation against non-homeowners? Does the Taoiseach not think people in the private rented sector have enough on their plates thanks to the housing crisis foisted upon them, rising rents and the danger of being made homeless at any time by selfsame landlords if they do not pay the unfair austerity measure?

The Government is taking on a huge sector. The CSO released figures last weekend showing that, in Dublin, only 59.4% of people own their homes. In the capital city, the Government will be taking on hundreds of thousands of council tenants or private tenants. If the Taoiseach thinks people will take this lying down, he is badly mistaken. Last night, I spoke at a meeting of almost 200 people in a community in Athlone. They turned out in sub-zero temperatures, as it was -3° Celsius when I arrived there. Their mission was to discuss how not to pay water charges and how to persuade the Government to get rid of them.

Perhaps the Taoiseach will comment on the huge protests that took place on Saturday. Despite it not being officially called by any group, with the protests being self-organised by communities, and despite it being the start of a new year, people turned out in their tens of thousands against water charges. Does the Taoiseach agree the steam has not gone out of the water charges issue? Does the Taoiseach agree he should abolish Irish Water and the water charges before the Government is faced with even further humiliation in 2015? The indications are that a massive boycott of water charges, and not just of registration, lies ahead if the Government does not do so.

What about Michael Davitt?

Captain Boycott again.

I do not agree that Irish Water should be abolished or that water charges should be abolished. Deputy Ruth Coppinger is well aware that the charge for a single person is €1.15 per week, once registered with Irish Water and after receiving the contribution of €100, and €3 in respect of two or more adults living in a household. Deputy Coppinger seems to distinguish between what she calls council tenants and others but there are council tenants in places other than the Deputy's constituency. Many of them have been paying for water for years and are glad and happy to get a good supply of water. Deputy Coppinger seems to distinguish between the people of the country and seems to be happy that people in this country should continue for years to have to boil water for themselves and their children.

That is rubbish. This is not fooling anybody.

The Deputy seems to be happy that 42 towns continue emptying raw sewage into lakes and rivers.

Is that what Deputy Higgins wants?

She seems to be happy that a couple of thousand kilometres of inferior water should continue to leak into the ground. She seems to be happy that people, including those she called council tenants but I call citizens of our country, live in houses supplied by lead pipes. She seems to think it is appropriate to continue with such a situation but I do not.

The Taoiseach is not being fair.

It is about time everybody understood that we all have a contribution to make. The Government listened carefully to the vast majority of people who engaged in legitimate protests about water, and their feelings on it, over the last number of months. I deplore the small number of people who carried that way beyond the bounds of decency and normality in attacking Uachtarán na hÉireann in the way that they did.

Deputy Coppinger's party.

No, it was not.

This is not in keeping with democratic decency and if Deputy Coppinger has any authority or influence in that regard, she might deal with it. Irish Water is not going to be abolished. It exists for the purpose of fixing the current situation and investing for the future. I note the party in front of Deputy Coppinger has a very peculiar way of putting forward its economic perspective on this matter. It is now down to what it describes as all forms of formula. As far as the Government is concerned, we have listened carefully to ordinary people who have concerns about this. We want to bring about a situation whereby a charge of €1.15 applies to a single person, and a €3 for two or more people. That still allows people to beat the cap once the meters have been installed over the coming period.

Yet again the Taoiseach failed to answer my central question on whether he is happy with the registration figures. I will take his reply as a "No". It is obvious that if people do not register, even though the Government is giving them €100 to do so, they are unlikely to pay the water charges in April. I was offering him a chance to save his own skin by retreating from this abysmal policy of pushing Irish Water and water charges. The Taoiseach never listens but everybody knows that charges start at a certain level and the only way is up. Bin charges, which the Government always throws back at us for failing to prevent, have increased by 400% since they were introduced. People know the intention is to introduce the concept of payment so that the rates can be ratcheted up as the years go by.

In regard to protests, despite the best efforts of the Taoiseach and some in the media, the position of my party and the Anti-Austerity Alliance is very clear. We defend the right of people to protest. We do not resort to personal insults. That is not our method.

The Deputy should ask Murphy's law sitting beside her.

We focus on-----

I ask the Deputy to put her question.

Happily, in any meetings I attended people no longer believed the media. There is huge cynicism in that regard-----

We believe what we see.

I ask Deputy Coppinger to put her question.

The bills are coming in April, and that is the focus of the Anti-Austerity Alliance and the We Won't Pay campaign. We will be linking up with tens of thousands of other people all around the country, speaking at meetings where we can and assisting communities in boycotting these bills. A huge number of people have already decided not to pay and I think many more will be joining them.

The Deputy is way over time. I ask her to put her question.

Is the Taoiseach happy with the registration figures given that the return rate is less than 50%? If he is not happy, what does he plan to do about it? Clearly he should retreat on water charges.

Coming as he does from County Mayo, he should know about boycotts.

There has been a huge increase in the number of people all over the country registering with Irish Water in the last few days. More than 1.125 million people and households have responded to the campaign and almost 900,000 Irish Water customers have registered, or 59% of customers. We encourage as many people as possible to register over the next period. The position is that if somebody does not register, a default two-adult household bill of €260 will issue and those people will not be entitled to the €100 contribution made by the State, having listened to the people very carefully.

Tell that to the Minister. He says there is no problem at all.

The Minister has made it clear that nobody is going to be cut off in respect of water.

He would not dare.

That is an important element. It is not the same as gas or electricity. A different model has to be supplied here and the Government wants to be as flexible and amenable to the concerns of people as possible. The Deputy said that her party defends the right to protest, as does my party and every party. However, I did not hear her say that she condemns the disgraceful remarks made about Uachtarán na hÉireann.

Did he not listen to the radio last week?

I did not hear her condemn - irrespective of whether they are members of her party - the antics and behaviour of a small number of people who have brought the water campaign into complete and utter disrepute.

They have not.

They turned off hundreds of people who were prepared to join the original marches but who are now fed up to the teeth with the current carry on.

Just because a few idiots misbehave at the All Ireland, that does not mean one smears all 82,000 attendees.

Do not trivialise it.

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