Comhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 2022

Foilsitheoireacht agus Léitheoireacht na Gaeilge: Plé (Atógáil)

Chairman

Leanfaidh an cruinniú seo ar aghaidh go dtí 4 p.m. más gá, cé go bhfuil súil agam nach gá. Níl aon leithscéal faighte againn. Táimid ag súil le cúpla duine eile. Beidh dhá sheisiún inár gcruinniú inniu. Sa chéad seisiún, pléifimid spreagadh foilsitheoireachta agus léitheoireachta na Gaeilge le hionadaithe ó shiopaí leabhar éagsúla. Sa dara seisiún, pléifimid bearta TG4 agus na héilimh réamhcháinaisnéise a bheidh ann roimh ré le hionadaithe ó TG4.

Cuirim fearadh na fáilte roimh na comhaltaí den chomhchoiste atá anseo agus roimh aon chomhalta eile a thiocfaidh isteach chun freastal ar an gcruinniú, roimh na finnéithe a bheidh ag labhairt os ár gcomhair agus roimh an lucht atá ag breathnú ar an gcruinniú seo ar sheirbhís teilifíse an Oireachtais nó in aon áit eile. Cuirim fáilte roimh Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir, bainisteoir An Siopa Leabhar de chuid Chonradh na Gaeilge ag 6 Sráid Fhearchair; Liam Donnelly, bainisteoir Hodges Figgis i mBaile Átha Cliath; agus ó Shiopa Leabhar Uí Chionnaith i gContae na Gaillimhe, Sarah Kenny, bainisteoir margaíochta, agus Tomás Kenny, bainisteoir ginearálta. Gabhaim buíochas leo as teacht isteach anseo chun a bheith linn inniu. Cuirim ar an taifead go bhfuil na finnéithe go léir ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ó sheomra choiste 4 laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais.

Sula ndéanfaidh muid plé ar ábhar an lae inniu tá dualgas orm na rialacha agus na treoracha seo a leanas a leagan faoi bhráid na bhfinnéithe agus na gcomhaltaí atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú.

Meabhraím do chomhaltaí, d’fhinnéithe agus do bhaill fhoirne a chinntiú go bhfuil a ngutháin shoghluaiste múchta le linn an chruinnithe mar gur féidir leis na gléasanna seo cur as do chóras craolacháin, eagarthóireachta agus fuaime Thithe an Oireachtais. Tá an rogha ag comhaltaí freastal ar an gcruinniú go fisiciúil sa seomra coiste nó go fíorúil ar Microsoft Teams, ar an gcoinníoll, i gcás cruinnithe phoiblí, gur óna n-oifigí i dTithe an Oireachtais a dhéantar sin. Is de bharr riachtanais bhunreachtúla a dhéantar é sin. Nuair atá comhaltaí ag freastal óna n-oifigí, ba chóir dóibh a bhfíseáin a bheith ar siúl an t-am go léir agus iad féin le feiceáil ar an scáileán. Baineann an coinníoll seo le finnéithe freisin ach tá na finnéithe go léir anseo sa seomra cruinnithe inniu. Ba chóir d'aon duine atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú go fíorúil a chinntiú go bhfuil a micreafóin múchta nuair nach bhfuil siad ag labhairt.

Cuirim ar aird na bhfinnéithe go bhfuil siad, de bhua Bhunreacht na hÉireann agus reachtaíochta araon, faoi chosaint ag lánphribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don chomhchoiste chomh fada agus atá siad lonnaithe laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais agus an fhianaise sin á tabhairt acu. Ní féidir le finnéithe brath ar an gcosaint sin agus fianaise á tabhairt acu ó thaobh amuigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais. Molaim d'fhinnéithe, go mór mór iad atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ón taobh amuigh cé nach bhfuil sé sin ábhartha inniu, a bheith cúramach agus fianaise á tabhairt acu. Má ordaíonn an comhchoiste dóibh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe, ba chóir dóibh amhlaidh a dhéanamh láithreach. Ordaítear d’fhinnéithe gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé ag an gcomhchoiste. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a chuireann siad faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo.

Fiafraítear d’fhinnéithe agus do chomhaltaí araon an cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, daoine nó eintiteas a cháineadh, líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha nó ar shlí ina bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear dóibh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar dóibh éirí as an ráiteas sin láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidh siad leis an ordú sin láithreach.

Anois, díreoimid isteach ar ábhar an chruinnithe. Aithním go bhfuil na Teachtaí Ó Muimhneachán, McHugh agus Ó Cathasaigh linn ar líne ar Microsoft Teams. Chonaic mé an Seanadóir Kyne ar líne ar feadh tamall freisin. Laistigh sa seomra coiste, seachas mé féin, tá an Teachta Connolly agus an Seanadóir Ó Donnghaile.

Ms Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na baill eile as an gcuireadh seo a thabhairt do An Siopa Leabhar labhairt os comhair an chomhchoiste seo. Is mise bainisteoir An Siopa Leabhar ar Shráid Fhearchair i gceanncheathrú Chonradh na Gaeilge. Is siopa é a fheidhmíonn trí Ghaeilge agus a fhreastalaíonn ar chustaiméirí ar an oileán seo agus go hidirnáisiúnta. Labhróidh mé beagáinín faoin siopa agus luafaidh mé moltaí faoi leith atá againn agus bearnaí atá aitheanta againn sa mhargadh ó bheith ag caint le custaiméirí, le léitheoirí, le teaghlaigh, le foghlaimeoirí agus le léitheoirí dílse leabhair Ghaeilge.

Tá aitheasc i bhfad níos faide scríofa amach agus curtha isteach agam. Ar mhaithe le gontacht, ní bheidh mé ag dul isteach go rómhion sa scéal anseo. Osclaíodh doras an tsiopa in 1975. Tá an siopa ar oscailt agus ag feidhmiú trí Ghaeilge ó shin i leith. Is ann don siopa fós a bhuí le Conradh na Gaeilge, a sheasann an fód ar son an tsiopa agus a chuireann an t-ionad ar fáil. Ceapadh mise sa ról seo in 2018. Tá neart forbairtí curtha i bhfeidhm ó shin le hacmhainní teoranta. Tá an fhoireann méadaithe againn agus tá suíomh idirlín comhaimseartha againn, rud a shábháil an siopa le linn na dianghlasála. Tá réimse agus líon an stoic ardaithe, tá teacht isteach, móide caiteachas, ardaithe. Thar aon rud eile, tá leagan amach an tsiopa leasaithe. Molaimid do dhuine ar bith nach raibh istigh le tamall anuas cuairtín a thabhairt ar an siopa chun na hathruithe sin a fheiceáil.

Ba mhaith linn an Áisíneacht Dáileachán Leabhar a mholadh as an obair atá curtha i gcrích. Tá sí i ndiaidh forbairtí móra a chur i bhfeidhm le cúpla bliain anuas in ainneoin foireann teoranta, acmhainní teoranta agus iad a bheith curtha amach go Dún Seachlainn ar an taobh eile den M50. Tacaím go cinnte le daoine eile atá i ndiaidh a rá gur cheart go mbeadh suíomh idirlín acu, fiú más cuid de shuíomh an Fhorais féin é, a léireodh cé hiad na foilsitheoirí a ndéanann sí soláthar orthu.

Tá pointe eile le hardú againn mar gheall ar an dáileachán. Mar shiopa, is é sin mar chustaiméir atá ag an dáileoir, ní féidir linn leabhar a ordú ó na dáileoirí, Áis nó eile, mura bhfuil a fhios againn gurb ann dó. Le blianta beaga anuas, tá brú curtha againn ar sholáthraithe éagsúla scéal a chur chugainn nuair a bhíonn leabhair ar fáil. Ní hé go bhfuil muid suite ar Shráid Fhearchair ag fanacht ar gach eolas teacht chomh fada linn. Téimid sa tóir ar an eolas céanna agus fós tá leabhair nach gcloisimid fúthu go ceann seachtainí nó míonna i ndiaidh a bhfoilsithe ceal teagmhála. Caithfear cuimhneamh gur siopa Gaeilge muid atá ag iarraidh leabhair Ghaeilge a cheannach agus a dhíol agus a thuigeann gurb ann d’fhoilsitheoirí difriúla agus go bhfuil aithne againn ar a chéile. Níl mé cinnte an mar sin a bhíonn an scéal le siopaí eile.

Cuireann An Siopa Leabhar seirbhís Ghaeilge ar fáil. Aon rud a dhéanann muid, déanann muid i nGaeilge é, pé rud atá i gceist. Cuireann an méid sin ar fad leis an eispéireas custaiméara agus leagaimid an-bhéim air sin. Creidim go bhfuil neart mór a d’fhéadfadh siopaí eile na tíre a fhoghlaim ó An Siopa Leabhar mar gheall ar sholáthar leabhar Gaeilge agus cad is custaiméir le Gaeilge ann. Moltar go bhfeicfidh siopaí go ginearálta mar bhuntáiste é má tá Gaeilge ag daoine ar an bhfoireann agus go dtacóidh siad le húsáid na teanga san ionad oibre. Moltar an rud céanna i dtaca leis na leabharlanna poiblí. Creidim go láidir go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó daoine sa tír seo a cheannódh nó a léadh leabhair Ghaeilge ach fios a bheith acu gurb ann dóibh.

Ba mhian liom labhairt, más go tapa féin é, faoi chuid de na bearnaí atá aitheanta againn mar shiopa Gaeilge, is é sin, rudaí a dtagann daoine chugainn á lorg go rialta. D’fhéadfainn an lá a chaitheamh ag labhairt faoi seo ach tuigim na teorainneacha atá ann. Tá bearnaí ann do léitheoirí céimnithe, is é sin leabhair do dhaoine fásta i sraith a éiríonn níos deacra de réir mar a théitear ar aghaidh; leabhair agus acmhainní dírithe ar dhaoine a bhfuil deacrachtaí foghlama acu, go háirithe disléicse; leabhráin i dteangacha eile le ligean do dhaoine an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim gan brath ar an mBéarla; foclóirí Gaeilge agus teangacha eile, mar shampla, foclóir Gaeilge-Fraincis agus Fraincis-Gaeilge; leabhair le carachtair ilchineálacha, mar shampla carachtair LADTA+, is é sin carachtair aeracha, déghnéasacha, tras, aiteacha, idirghnéis agus eile; agus leabhair le cineálacha éagsúla teaghlach, daoine faoi mhíchumas agus an sórt ilchineálachta a chuirfeadh fonn ar dhaoine ó chúlraí éagsúla leabhair Ghaeilge a phiocadh suas. Ba chóir guthanna ó phobail éagsúla a aimsiú, a mholadh agus a fhorbairt. Tá bearna do shraitheanna do dhéagóirí leis an údar céanna agus a leanann na carachtair chéanna. Ba ghá infheistíocht ama agus fís fhadtéarmach a bheith ann idir scríbhneoirí, fhoilsitheoirí agus mhaoinitheoirí. Tá bearna ann do ghreannáin nó coimicí de bhunadh na Gaeilge agus do leabhair dhátheangacha ina bhfuil an dá theanga ag breathnú ar a chéile. Facing page translation a dtugtar air sin. Is rímhinic a chuirtear ceist orainne in An Siopa Leabhar faoi sin agus caithfidh muid leabhair do ghasúir a mholadh do dhaoine fásta. Tá bearna ann freisin do leabhair le gníomhaíochtaí, mar shampla crosfhocail agus cuardach focal do dhaoine óga.

Moltar, i dtosach báire, scéim na gcoimisiún faoi chlár na leabhar Gaeilge a thabhairt ar ais agus a chur ar fáil arís. Moltar ansin brainse breise fós de scéim na gcoimisiún a úsáid le daoine a spreagadh chun tús a chur ag líonadh na mbearnaí seo. Theastódh infheistíocht ón Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta mar gheall ar acmhainní do dhaoine le deacrachtaí foghlama. Thairis sin, moltar go leagfar dualgas ar An Gúm saothair a choimisiúnú a léiríonn an ilchineálacht agus an t-idirchultúrachas atá fásta agus ag fás sa phobal idir bhunsaothair Ghaeilge agus aistriúcháin. Tá i bhfad níos mó le rá agam, ach níl ar intinn agam fanacht anseo go dtí 4 p.m. nó fiú meán oíche, mar a bheadh ag teastáil le dul trí gach rud. Táim ag súil le ceisteanna agus plé.

Mr. Liam Donnelly

I thank the committee for inviting us to speak before it on the topic of encouraging the publication and reading of Irish language material. As a bookshop, we will try to describe some of the issues which affect us and therefore the wider trade in stocking books in the Irish language. In Dublin, there are very few bookshops that devote more than a shelf or two to Irish language books. Ourselves and An Siopa Leabhar on Harcourt Street have a larger range than most. Why is this? Most bookshops have a very small surface area and must maximise sales per square foot. Devoting a percentage of this space to Irish language books is a risk that some of these shops are not willing to take as the returns from sales may not materialise.

The next issue is supply. Most books in the Irish language are distributed by Áisíneacht Dáileacháin Leabhar, ÁIS, which does an admirable job in supplying the trade and beyond with Irish language books. However, ordering can only be done by email and telephone. The industry standard is to use teleorder, an electronic ordering system which uses sales or databases used by bookshops. Not using this standard makes it time consuming for the bookshop to place orders as the data has to be transferred from the catalogue to email or even to read out over the phone.

It is just time-consuming for people to place orders and we are all pressed for time. As was mentioned before, Áis also does not have a searchable website through which orders can be made. That is one of the more important things it could do.

The international standard for the identification of books is the International Standard Book Number, ISBN. It is essentially a product identifier used by publishers, booksellers, libraries, Internet retailers and other supply chain participants for ordering, listing, sales records and stock control purposes. The ISBN identifies the registrant as well as the specific title, edition and format. Not all Irish book publishers conform to this standard, which causes issues in reordering and selling of books through electronic point of sale systems. Wholesale adoption of this standard would make it easier to reorder and identify sales.

There is vibrant and active publishing in the Irish language. It is concentrated on children's publishing in the main, then on Irish learning products and then on adult publishing. There appears to be a gap in publishing for those over the age of 10 with little being published for teenagers and young adults. The teenage and young adult market is one of the strongest growing and, in some ways, bravest parts of English language publishing. It tackles complex societal issues that are not tackled through the mainstream educational system. Adult publishing is also not diverse enough. There is a lot of poetry but fewer new fiction voices. Investment to help publishers market, design and commission new work is necessary, as is support for the writers who choose to write in Irish. Cover design in Irish language publishing has been poor but is improving. It needs to appeal to a more visually conscious younger audience.

Some of the most successful books over recent years have been accounts of the joys of learning Irish and books telling of the influence Irish has had on the English language. All of these books were written in English but never translated into Irish. Motherfoclóir is an example. Established publishers in English, including Penguin Ireland, Hachette Ireland, HarperCollins and Gill Books, need to be encouraged to produce books in Irish as part of their offer and encouraged to do translations. Some Irish publishers have produced fine translations of novels in English, French and numerous other languages. This in one way to allow readers to experience the familiar in the unfamiliar. Co-ordination is needed between curriculum developers and publishers to update the curriculum to keep it relevant. Some texts have been on the curriculum for 20 years, for example, Cith is Dealán. It is a wonderful book but I used it in school in 1979 and I do not know if it has any relevance to children today.

Irish language novels should be submitted for international awards to raise the profile of the language. We seem not to celebrate these writers by bringing them to a much wider audience outside of this country. Considering the amount of space given to books in English in all media including print, television and radio, the amount given to books in Irish seems minimal. It feels ghettoised, with the main review coverage in Comhar and once a year in Books Ireland towards the end of the year. That is the limit of the review coverage of Irish language books. National newspapers do not review Irish language books as often as they should. Neither does TV or radio. TG4's last books programme was in 2018. Raidió na Gaeltachta has some but not many. The last local radio station coverage I know of was a show on Donegal's Ocean FM, "Duilleoga", in 2019. That was the only one I could see in recent years. We also need to encourage the use of TikTok, Instagram and so on to promote the books to a younger audience. Having looked at the Seachtain na Gaeilge website, it seems that it is primarily concerned with the spoken language. The website does not celebrate the written word at all, with the exception of a paragraph saying that we have a long and glorious tradition of writing in Ireland. Irish language publishing is active and vibrant but suffers from a lack of visibility in shops and libraries. There is no reason that this cannot be reversed through a more dynamic relationship between the shops, publishers and libraries.

Chairman

Mr. Donnelly managed to struggle through without his glasses.

Ms Sarah Kenny

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as ucht an chuiridh agus as an deis a bheith anseo inniu. Táim anseo le Tomás Kenny. Is as Siopa Leabhar agus Dánlann Uí Chionnaith i gContae na Gaillimhe muid. Bhunaigh ár seanathair agus ár seanmháthair an siopa i gcathair na Gaillimhe in 1940. Bhí leabhair Ghaeilge á ndíol acu ón tús. Leis sin, táimid ag díol leabhair Ghaeilge le 82 bliain anuas. Tá an teanga fíorthábhachtach dúinn inár ngnó. Tá sé fite fuaite i ngach rud a dhéanaimid agus inár n-obair laethúil. Is é sluán ár ngnólachta "leabhair do chuile mheabhair". Tá sé sin os cionn an dorais nuair atá tú ag teacht isteach sa siopa. Cloistear comhrá Gaeilge sa siopa gach lá.

Sna 1950idí, thosaigh muid ag easpórtáil. Chuir muid roinnt catalóg le chéile ag an am sin agus iad ar fad i nGaeilge. Ó shin i leith, tá daoine thar lear ag lorg leabhair i nGaeilge. Mhéadaigh an saghas gnó sin nuair a thosaigh muid ag taistil do na Stáit Aontaithe sna 1960idí ag tabhairt cuairt ar leabharlanna agus ollscoileanna ar fud na tíre sin agus go háirithe nuair a chuaigh muid ar an Idirlíon. Ceathracha bliain ó shin, toghadh muid mar phríomhsholáthróir leabhar Gaeilge agus leabhar Béarla don Library of Congress i Washington, an leabharlann is mó ar domhan. Thosaigh muid an rud céanna in an-chuid de na príomh-ollscoileanna sna Stáit Aontaithe trí na blianta, Notre Dame agus Harvard ina measc. Mar gheall air seo, chruthaigh muid margadh tábhachtach do leabhair Ghaeilge sna hinstitiúidí seo agus i measc daoine príobháideacha thar lear freisin. Tá sé mar sprioc againn an líon leabharlann agus institiúidí seo a mhéadú.

In 1994, thosaigh muid ag díol ar líne. Is muidne an siopa leabhar is faide ar an Idirlíon ar domhan. Anuraidh, sheol muid leabhair chuig 160 tír difriúla ar fud an domhain. Inár siopa i nGaillimh, tá thart ar 25,000 leabhar Gaeilge ar díol. Ina measc sin, tá seanleabhair, leabhair áthláimhe agus leabhair nua. Tá seans ann go bhfuil an bailiúchán is mó leabhar Gaeilge ar díol sa domhan againn. Gach bliain, díolaimid na mílte leabhar Gaeilge do chustaiméirí in Éirinn agus thar lear sa siopa agus ar líne. Inár dtuairim, tá a lán deiseanna ann níos mó leabhar Gaeilge a dhíol ach tá a lán fadhbanna ag spreagadh muid é seo a dhéanamh go héifeachtach. Tá mo dheartháir, Tomás Kenny, chun caint leis an gcoiste faoi seo anois.

Mr. Tomás Kenny

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as ucht an chuiridh seo. Tá brón orm go mbeidh mé ag caint i mBéarla because this is something I am very passionate about and I would not be able to get my point across as eloquently in Irish. I have been selling books in Kenny's for 21 years. There are effectively three parts to the puzzle. There is the publishing of the book, its distribution and marketing and its sale. I will talk a little bit about each of the three.

There is very good State funding for publishers and there is an awful lot of books published in Irish. It is almost comparable to the number of books published in English on the island, which is remarkable given the relative size of the two readerships. However, there are issues with what is published. To echo what everyone has said thus far, that fact that some publishers do not use ISBNs is a nightmare because this does not allow books to be inputted into book databases and the point of sale systems that nearly every bookshop in the world uses.

It just makes it awkward and more difficult for anyone to stock. The books are generally more expensive than their English counterparts of the same size. As Liam Donnelly has said, the design, the quality of the paper and the number of illustrations are to a lower standard than one would find in comparable English-language publications. I suspect the reason for that is it is an awful lot cheaper to publish the way it is being published, because, in all too many cases, the publishers do not think they have a saleable product and do not particularly care about selling it. It is more about getting the item published than it is anything beyond that.

Distribution is a very big issue. ÁIS's IT system is extremely poor. It has a wonderful staff who do what they can. It has moved very recently and has a better-functioning warehouse. I would say it has moved from one old software system to a new software system and all of its data is corrupted. The reason it does not have a searchable database - it has sent me a list of every book it has in stock – is it does not know what it has in stock. For example, in the “Title” column, it has authors, ISBNs or data publication, which is a nightmare. You cannot look through it.

For us, and for others, we want a scenario such as the Easons or Amazon websites where they have the books for sale. It cannot be for sale if there is no database to work from. There are approximately 6,000 books in ÁIS at present. We have approximately 1,800 of those on the site, because that is all we could extract from the data that it sent us, which is shockingly poor, but it is not a particularly difficult problem to solve. We deal with millions of books, had this issue and solved it in months. I do not see any reason it could not be improved with a bit more help for ÁIS.

With regard to sale of the book, Futa Fata is the only Irish-language publisher in the country which operates outside of this ÁIS system and it has a sales representative which is not directly linked with ÁIS. I get information about everything that Futa Fata publishes. We stock virtually everything that it publishes. Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin comes into me to tell me what Futa Fata is publishing. With the exception of Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin, in 21 years I have not once had a publisher come in to me to tell me what it has for sale, what it can sell, how it can do it, that it could bring in an author etc. There is not one day goes by that I do not have an English-language publisher come into us with regard to what it can do, how it can do it or to ask how it can improve. There is a complete and utter lack of interest or effort from Irish-language publishers to get their books to a readership. We have been lead to believe in our conversations that, effectively, they see us as a threat to a direct sale through them. If we are based in Galway and they are based 20 miles away and we sell a book in our shop, they consider it a sale that could have gone to them.

In a similar sense, the discounts that Irish-language publishers offer, which are standard and have not changed in 30 or 40 years, are a little over half of what we would get from English-language publishers. The bookshops that the committee has here today are all ideologically driven towards having Irish-language books, but if a bookshop is not so driven or is in a county that might not be traditionally considered a hotbed of Gaeltacht activity, there is no reason for it to stock these books. They cost more, sell less and the shop gets less margin on each book sold. There is no incentive whatsoever.

At the moment, all of the incentive is driven towards the publishers to publish the books. I have no issue with that. It is as it should be. There is some effort going towards helping ÁIS, but not enough. It is effectively operating a 1970s or 1980s model in a digital world. There are absolutely no resources whatsoever towards bookshops to bring in authors or to have events. I suspect that the lack comes both from the State and the publishers themselves.

In the past three years, we have sold Irish-language books to 29 different countries and to every single county on the island. There is an untapped market for these books that is untapped, but the current system puts obstacles to selling them in our way, instead of solutions. If I can in any way facilitate a change in this or a solution, I am happy to offer any help I can.

Chairman

Tá roinnt pointí spéisiúla ardaithe ansin. Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leis na finnéithe as a gcur i láthair agus as a bheith chomh hionraic sin sna pointí a rinne siad. Bheadh sé an-éasca dóibh teacht anseo agus a rá linn go raibh gach rud i gceart. Is léir dúinn nach bhfuil gach rud i gceart. Is é sin an fáth go bhfuilimid ag déanamh an cheist seo a chíoradh. Táimid ag iarraidh a bheith praiticiúil nuair atáimid ag cur tuairisce le chéile ar na fadhbanna atá ann agus an leigheas orthu. Tá na finnéithe tar éis cur leis an méid atá ráite ag daoine atá tar éis a bheith os ár gcomhair cheana maidir le foilsitheoireacht. Tá pointí nua le cloisteáil inniu mar gheall ar dhíolachán agus mar gheall ar phoiblíocht na leabhar. Cloisimid nach bhfuil na leabhair ar an gcaighdeán céanna le leabhair Bhéarla nó go bhfuil siad níos daoire. Ní aontaím leis sin ach b'fhéidir go mbeimid in ann é sin a chíoradh beagáinín eile.

Tá fadhb ann i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla ó thaobh téacsleabhar. Chuile bhliain, tagann téacsleabhar nua amach agus bíonn an seancheann fós i stoc agus gach uile thuismitheoir sa tír ag lorg téacsleabhar i nGaeilge nach bhfuil ar fáil. Tagann siad déanach nó a leithéid. An bhfuil a fhios ag na finnéithe faoin bhfadhb sin? An dtarlaíonn sé ina siopaí? Tháinig ceann eile chun cinn. Tá trí shiopa dhifriúla anseo. Nuair a thagann custaiméirí isteach, an bhfuil éileamh ann do chlosleabhair, amhail na cinn a éistear leo sa ghluaisteán, nó na ríomhleabhair nó ebooks? Tá dhá thuairim ann. Is iad na finnéithe na daoine a bhíonn ag díol na leabhar. Nuair a thagann daoine isteach ag ceannach leabhar, an mbíonn leabhair fhisiciúla, leabhair ar féidir leo é a chur isteach i ngléas éigin nó ríomhleabhair ag teastáil uathu?

Tá 25,000 leabhar Gaeilge i siopa Kenny’s agus méid eile ag na siopaí eile. Cad a tharlaíonn leis na leabhair? Mura mbogann stoc in aon siopa, bíonn ar an siopa fáil réidh leis nó é a chur ar ais. Mura bhfuil a fhios ag daoine go bhfuil siad ann, fanann siad ar an tseilf. An bhfuil aon bhealach gur féidir leis an siopa promotions a dhéanamh chun an stoc a bhrú nó an bhfuil siad ag tnúth le hÁIS nó an foilsitheoir an brú sin a dhéanamh?

Ms Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir

Bhí an cheathrú cheist sin an-fhada. Beidh orm iarraidh ort í a chur arís.

Chairman

Cad a tharlaíonn leis an stoc atá ar na seilfeanna?

Ms Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir

Ní tharlaíonn mórán leis.

Chairman

An mbogann sé? An bhfaigheann na siopaí réidh leis? An gcuireann siad ar ais é?

Ms Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir

Is cinnte go dtarlaíonn na rudaí a luaigh tú leis na téacsleabhair. Bíonn moill orthu agus téann rudaí as cló. Bíonn leabhair ar fáil go pointe éigin agus díoltar amach iad. Bíonn scuaine leabhar agus caithfear 40 nó suas le 100 leabhar a chur i gcló arís. Faoi láthair, táimid ag fáil scéalta ó CJ Fallon á rá go mbeidh leabhair ar ais ar an dáta seo agus mar sin de. Bímid ag coinneáil súil ar an eolas sin. Is ceist é sin do na foilsitheoirí oideachais. Is cinnte go dtarlaíonn an fhadhb sna siopaí, is é sin go mbíonn daoine ag fanacht le hábhar.

Is é an dara chuid den cheist ná easpa soláthair ar an téacsleabhar féin. Bíonn an leabhar ar fáil i mBéarla go han-mhinic agus ní bhíonn aon leagan Gaeilge ar fáil. Go bhfios domsa, is iad CJ Fallon, Edco, An Gúm, agus An Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta a bhíonn ag plé lena leithéid. Teastaíonn am agus airgead chun na haistriúcháin a dhéanamh. Is aistriúcháin iad. Ní hé go scríobhtar na leabhair seo i nGaeilge ar an gcéad lá, de ghnáth. Teastaíonn acmhainní chun iad a chur ar fáil ar an margadh. Bíonn fanacht ann agus, fós, tá sraitheanna nach bhfuil críochnaithe fós. Is dócha gur mar sin a mhairfidh sé, má thagann athrú eile fós ar an gcuraclam, go bhfágfar leabhair atá as dáta agus go mbeidh codanna de shraitheanna nach bhfuil in úsáid níos mó fágtha ar sheilfeanna éagsúla na tíre seo.

Is deacra dúinn leabhair scoile a chur ar ais nó mar a bhíonn sé le leabhair fhilíochta. Má tá stoc ard againn le rud atá imithe as dáta, ní féidir linn fáil réidh leis, ach sa bhliain inar cheannaíomar é. B'fhéidir go bhfuil dul amú iomlán orm ach is é an chaoi go n-oibríonn sé dúinn ná go mbíonn aschur amháin sa bhliain ar na leabhair scoile agus caithfidh gurb iad na leabhair a cheannaíomar an bhliain sin a chuirimid ar ais.

Is é closleabhar an focal a bheadh agamsa ar audiobook. Tagann daoine isteach chugainn á lorg go cinnte ach ní thagann gach duine isteach ag lorg an ruda chéanna. Tá taithí agam air seo. Bhínn ag plé le Cois Life, an teach foilsitheoireachta, nuair a bhí sé fós ar an bhfód agus rinne Cois Life cuid mhór den mhéid atá ar fáil, is é sin sé chlosleabhar nó seacht gclosleabhar. Fuarthas maoiniú ón gComhairle Ealaíon leis iad a thaifeadadh agus a scaipeadh ar líne, ar Soundcloud, nó ar bhealach eile. Ní raibh dlúthdhioscaí déanta. Rinneadh dhá sheit dlúthdhiosca agus bhí siad iontach costasach le déanamh agus bhí an taifead an-chostasach agus an eagarthóireacht fuaime an-chostasach. Bhí constaicí roimh níos mó a dhéanamh.

Is cinnte go dtagann custaiméirí isteach á lorg ach ní bhíonn siad i gcónaí ag lorg an ruda chéanna. Tá daoine áirithe ag lorg dlúthdhioscaí agus tá daoine eile ag iarraidh iad a aimsiú ar leithéid Audible ar líne ar le Amazon é, ach b'fhéidir nach bhfuil siad ar an eolas faoi sin nó nach bhfuil siad ag iarraidh tacú le Amazon ar chúiseanna pearsanta. Tá daoine ag lorg, go fíorannamh, cóip fhisiciúla freisin gur féidir leo éisteacht leo. Tá neart bealaí éagsúla go bhféadfaí é sin a bheith ag teastáil ó dhaoine. Tá margadh níos mó ann le haghaidh dlúthdhioscaí ná mar a shíltear. Tagann daoine isteach i gcónaí ag lorg rudaí ar dhlúthdhioscaí agus bíonn díomá orthu leis na leabhair fhoghlamtha go bhfuil an t-ábhar imithe ar líne amháin agus nach bhfuil dlúthdhiosca ar fáil níos mó agus é a chur siúl ar ghléas éigin.

Faighimid ceist maidir le ríomhleabhair go han-mhinic. Bheadh taithí agam air sin ó bheith ag obair le Cois Life agus ó bheith ag obair sa siopa. Mar gheall leis an siopa, faighimid daoine á lorg agus, go bunúsach, deirim leo sin go bhfuil fáil ar mhéid áirithe ríomhleabhair Ghaeilge ach is droch-chomhartha é nach bhfuil a fhios acu faoi na cinn atá ann cheana féin gan trácht ar níos mó a bheith ar an bhfód. Tá sé iontach deacair teacht orthu, mar dhuine aonair, agus dul isteach ar a leithéid de Kobo nó Kindle agus teacht ar fhíorleabhair Ghaeilge. Tá an-chuid turscair agus droch-leabhair nach leabhair iad atá i ndiaidh a bheith aistrithe ag an meaisínaistriúchán agus nach raibh scríofa riamh agus atá i ndiaidh a bheith curtha suas ag daoine aonair, róbat nó córais.

Tá sé an-deacair an t-ábhar sin a scagadh, fiú, ar na siopaí agus don duine aonair dul isteach ar cheann de na siopaí sin agus fíorleabhair Ghaeilge a aimsiú. Ní hamháin sin, is córas Béarla atá i gceist leis na córais sin go léir agus níl siad tógtha le bheith in úsáid ag daoine le Gaeilge. Seans nach bhfuil na síntí fada sna teidil ná san eolas nó sa bhlurba a théann leis an ríomhleabhar. Chuir Cois Life 50 ar an margadh agus tá siadsan anois ag Cló Iar-Chonnacht. Tá sé millteanach deacair fiú teacht ar na cinn sin. Níl an locht ar na foilsitheoirí as sin. Tá an córas féin lochtach. Caithfidh na foilsitheoirí dul i ngleic le córas mór idirnáisiúnta Béarla leis iad a chur ar fáil don chustaiméir nó don leabharlann anseo. Tá an-chuid deacrachtaí ag baint leis sin. Ní bheinn róbhuartha faoin méid a chuireann ceist orainn mar gheall orthu in aon bhliain amháin, ar aon chaoi, agus toisc gur siopa muid a dhíolann leabhair fhisiciúla, níl mórán de thuairim againn mar gheall ar a ndíolachán ach an oiread, mar ní bheimid ag plé leo.

Fanann na leabhair nach ndíoltar iad, linne ar aon nós, le blianta agus níos mó blianta agus déanaimid athchúrsáil orthu ansin.

Mr. Liam Donnelly

To be bluntly honest, there is a cartel in Ireland for Irish primary and secondary-school textbooks. Five major publishers run it. They give the same discounts, returns terms and price increases. I can almost guarantee the price will increase by 5% every January. We left the textbook business 35 years ago, but I have experienced, when working with Easons and running its textbook division, that the same problems occur all of the time. The cartel - I am sorry to say - I think is between Gill, CJ Fallon, Edco and Folens. There is another one I have forgotten. They run it the same way. There are price increases every year. They change their text books every two or three years, sometimes as a basis of curriculum change, but often not. Sometimes, it is just because they can. I have never understood why they were allowed to run it like this.

Easons, to be fair, is the main supplier of textbooks in the country. Most bookshops cannot afford to do them. The discount is 25%. There is a 5% returns cap, which means that if one buys €100 worth of books and sell €50 worth, one can only return 5% and is still stuck with 50%. One has €45 worth of books in the shop that one can never sell. The publishers might change the following year and the textbook will be different. They run it that way and it is very difficult to make money. Easons is the only one that has really made a good fist of it. Some small shops are able to do it and, certainly, textbooks.ie has done a fantastic job of it online. However, the changing over of textbooks is a real issue, not just in Irish. It does not matter what the subject is. That is probably beyond the purview of this committee. I find it problematic how those publishers run their business.

Every bookshop has stock sitting on the shelf for years. With regard to Irish books, we never return books to the Irish publishers, especially not to ÁIS. We buy them and we have them. After two or three years, accounting wise, they mean nothing. They have been written off. I would sell them off cheap and get in new books. We will price promote to sell the stock on. Eventually, you will find it for €1 in a bargain bin. It will go and we will never buy it again. We might not be able to identify it, of course, because it would not have an ISBN, but we can then buy fresh stock.

We will always keep our core Irish stock in place.

Some books of poetry by obscure poets, or very badly-produced books, just die. The good ones, however, keep on selling, which is always encouraging. The reason we stock the books is that they are good, especially in children's publishing. It is fantastic. Futa Fata does fantastic work. Many of the mainstream Irish publishers, such as Gill, do some great books as Gaeilge, which we never return. However, there is a real issue in adult publishing with bad books that people do not want to buy but we buy them because we do not know. We have never read them. We do not get a chance to read every book. One has to make a judgment and we buy one or two. If they do not sell, they do not sell.

We do not sell e-books. That is not our business. We are in the physical domain. However, it is a cost issue for a publisher. Producing a CD is very expensive. Possibly the best avenue for publishers to release their material is through Audible or on the Internet, in order that it can be downloaded onto a USB stick, but not as a physical CD. It is just too expensive to do it. As Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir said, many of the translations that are coming up are done by robots.

It is like many Irish texts one will find on the Internet if one looks for obscure, old Irish texts. They are produced by photocopying machines. They are terrible and they do the book industry a disservice. It is very important that they should be produced and people should be assisted in providing the readers and making it happen, but not as a physical CD. They should be produced via Audible, or through an Irish-language service for books as Gaeilge, in order that they do not get lost in the morass of English.

Mr. Tomás Kenny

Liam Donnelly has very ably described the Irish textbook market there. From an Irish-language point of view, as well as a problem with education textbooks, regular fiction books on the curriculum are quite often not in print. When I was doing my leaving certificate, we did Scothscéalta by Pádraic Ó Conaire. There was a Pádraic Ó Conaire statue on Eyre Square, there still is kind of, and busloads of American tourists used to come in to say that their grandfather had read Pádraic Ó Conaire and to ask to buy it. I would say that all of my classmates wanted to buy it and cannot find it. I remember that ÁIS rang me. I used to ring ÁIS, because I did not know who had published it originally to ask if someone could reprint it, that we could sell loads. Approximately two or three years later, I got a phone call to say it had found two pallettes of Scothscéalta down the back that nobody had realised were there. It is funny in a way, but it also goes back to what we are dealing with. It is the case across the board. Most of the top 20, 40 or 50 books in Irish, in the history of the Irish language, are not in print. If one wants to come into buy a classic, it is difficult. I am straying from the Cathaoirleach's question.

We do not deal with the e-book market. I have no idea what the costs are. There is obviously a cost involved with transferring it. We sell CDs. We obviously have nothing to do with Audible, or whatever, which is how most people would access audiobooks. However, there is a market because much Irish-language reading that we encounter is aspirational in many respects. Many people read aspirational audiobooks on long commutes, such as that difficult science book I will never read. I imagine the same applies to Irish, but that is only a personal opinion.

In terms of stock on shelves, we have many leabhair Ghaeilge. We have second-hand, rare and new books. We have multiple copies of 80% to 90% of the books that were ever published. I was saying to Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir before we began, that we had Conradh na Gaeilge pamphlets from 1899, 1900 and 1901 that my grandad bought when Conradh na Gaeilge moved its shop on O'Connell Street in the 1970s. We still have them 55 years later, but he probably thought it was a fantastic deal. We would never get rid of or return them or return them because it as an ideological point. It is also a point of difference, to be perfectly honest, from a commercial point of view. There is no point in pretending otherwise. There are very few people who sell books in Irish. It is good to do so because it brings people in the door. There is a market there, even if people are not always aware of it.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as an ionchur iontach ionraic atá tugtha acu go dtí seo. Is maith liom an téarma "closleabhar". Is é an chéad uair dom é sin a chloisteáil. Cé go bhfuil a fhios againn go mbeidh spás i gcónaí faoi choinne fíorleabhar agus leabhair a bhfuil daoine in ann coinneáil ina gcuid lámha, an dóigh leis na finnéithe go mbeidh ráchairt níos mó ann faoi choinne a leithéid de na leabhair leictreonacha agus na closleabhair? Cén dóigh ar féidir leis na foilsitheoirí agus daoine cosúil leis na finnéithe, a bhfuil siopaí acu, atá ag díol na leabhar seo múnlóireacht a dhéanamh don todhchaí? Is é sin an dóigh a dhéanann níos mó daoine idirghníomhithe le leabhair, a lán de mo chairde agus mo chlann san áireamh. Nuair atá siad amuigh faoi choinne ag rith, ar a rothar, nó ag tiomáint áit éigin, tá siad ag éisteacht le leabhair nó podchraoltaí. An féidir spás lárnach a chruthú atá ina hub de shórt éigin ar nós Audible don Ghaeilge, ag dul chun tosaigh? Dar ndóigh, ní bheadh sé in úsáid ag na finnéithe. An mbeadh ar shiopaí leabhar adopting a dhéanamh don rud seo agus muid ag dul ar aghaidh? Cén dóigh ar thabharfaidís leo é sin a dhéanamh? An mbeadh tacaíocht de dhíth orthu é sin a dhéanamh?

Teastaíonn barúil uaim ar an gceist faoi fhógraíocht agus phoiblíocht do scríbhneoireacht, d'fhoilsitheoireacht agus do léitheoireacht na Gaeilge. Cén dóigh a réiteoimid an fhadhb sin? Tá gach duine, atá ag teacht os ár gcomhair le roinnt seachtaine anuas, ag lua cheist mhargaíochta agus phoiblíochta agus fógraíocht ar na meáin trí mheán na Gaeilge agus ar son leabhar agus fhoilseachán Gaeilge. Níl mise iomlán soiléir ag an bpointe seo, agus beidh orainn moltaí a dhéanamh sa tuairisc seo, cén dóigh a réiteoimid an cheist sin. Cé a bheidh freagrach as? Cad iad na dualgais a bhféadfar a chur i bhfeidhm le go mbeidh sé cinnte go mbeidh daoine ag plé cúrsaí léitheoireachta agus foilsitheoireachta trí Ghaeilge, seachas 15 nóiméad le linn sheachtain na Gaeilge ar chlár raidió áit éigin? Cén dóigh ar féidir linn é sin a mhéadú sa dóigh agus go mbeadh dul i méid, tá súil agam, i dtaca le léitheoireacht Ghaeilge, foilsitheoireacht Ghaeilge agus ceannach leabhar i nGaeilge?

Tá mé le bheith thuas sa Seanad fosta. B'fhéidir nach mbeidh mé in ann fanacht ar na freagraí ina n-iomláine. Is cinnte go léifidh mé iad ar ais, mura bhfuil mé in ann é sin a dhéanamh.

Ms Sarah Kenny

Is é ceann de na fadhbanna atá ann maidir leis an margaíocht do leabhair Ghaeilge ná the engagement from publishers with the retailers. The English-language publishers come into us to talk about their big titles that are up and coming for the coming season. We will look at the ones we think will sell well and buy them into the shop. We will work with the publishers to do promotions on some of those titles and to get some of the authors to come into the shop to do readings, interviews and signings.

We put videos up on our Youtube channel and put promotions for titles and authors on our social media. We might send a press release to try to get an interview with the author on local radio. All of that puts it to the forefront of the general public. If the authors and publishers also contribute to that and do a marketing campaign, like the English language publishers do for all their titles, with interviews on national radio and with local media, that gets the books out into the media and onto social media, where a younger audience will view them. That would do a huge amount. None of that happens at the moment because we are not getting the engagement directly from the publishers as the incentive is not there for them.

Mr. Tomás Kenny

Far greater penetration into The Irish Times, the Irish Independent, TG4 or whatever is pointless if people cannot access the book after the fact. That is part of the problem now because we are all at a loss as to knowing what is being published. There is no point in TG4 having a new show unless the distribution side of it is fixed. Sarah Kenny is absolutely right. There are definitely possibilities. Madame Lazare by Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin won an EU prize. That was published a year ago and won an EU prize for literature for the island of Ireland. We were offered funding by that EU prize to put on an event and do marketing around it. We have never, in 82 years, been approached by anybody in Ireland to do anything like that about Irish language books, whereas we have for English language ones. It took an EU organisation to look to fund it in any way, shape or form. Nobody is looking for handouts or anything like that but there is a recognition in English language poetry, for example, that it is not necessarily viable commercially and yet there are poetry readings everywhere because they are funded, rightfully, by the Arts Council. The same is not true in an Irish language capacity, despite there being people out there who are willing, capable and able to do it.

There is a way forward for audiobooks. The best way of spreading Irish might be podcasting as much as anything else. I know we are talking about publishing and books but that is the way most people consume their media now, certainly for my age bracket and all my friends and family. There are possibilities there. The one thing there is no lack of is the actual creation itself. There is so much material there to sell and to have and there are immensely talented people doing it on the writing and the publishing side. The will is there from everybody, from Áis to Foras na Gaeilge, but as I said earlier, it is an analogue model in a digital world. Hopefully that might change over time.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I do not want to jump the gun because we need to get the first steps sorted, as Sarah Kenny said, by doing the publicity and the marketing right. If we were to get to the stage where that was done right and increased demand, visibility and awareness, I would have thought more people would inherently want to engage with the product. If that is grown, more people will, within the context we are operating in now, want to engage with it electronically, whether that is via their tablet or their audiobook. Tá cúpla céim ann le réiteach. Níor mhaith leis na finnéithe go réiteofar an chéad chéim, atá leagtha amach ag Sarah ó thaobh na bhfoilsitheoirí de, agus cineál borradh a bheith ann fá choinne ráchairte ach nach mbeadh na háiseanna ann. Níl fiú na ducks a chur in a row agus ansin go dtitfeadh an tóin as. Tá sé sin iontach suimiúil. Sin an freagra is cuimsithí a fuair mé ó thaobh na bhfadhbanna maidir le fógraíocht. Tá mé go hiomlán tiomanta go mbeidh tuiscint i bhfad níos fearr agam faoin ábhar sin go háirithe agus muid ag dul ar aghaidh leis an tuairisc seo. Gabh mo leithscéal as briseadh isteach ansin.

Mr. Liam Donnelly

It is interesting what Sarah Kenny and Tomás Kenny said about marketing being an ecosystem. We are bookshops and then there are publishers and writers. All feed off each other. The disconnect, as Sarah rightly said, is in the fact that there is a lack of engagement from Irish language publishers with the physical shops. Previously, Áis had the best representative in the world but he retired and since then Áis has communicated only by email. Áis as an organisation and distributor does not communicate with us except by email. There is no physical person there.

Deputy Dara Calleary

How does that compare with the English language side?

Mr. Liam Donnelly

English language publishers all have bodies on the ground. Some have four or five. Penguin Ireland has five representatives and HarperCollins has three. Hachette has three, with two more sitting in the offices as support. Áis does not have the support. Áis is only a distributor but it communicates most with us. The individual publishers do not communicate with us. The most successful event I have ever done with an Irish language publisher was with Futa Fata. Its representatives were willing to come from Galway to do an Irish language event for children. It was fantastic because they came but it is expensive for a publisher to decant five or six people. This is simply about being in the shop and celebrating a book, not anything else. Decanting four or five people from Galway to Dublin for the day and back is an expense and small publishers cannot afford to do it. Big English and Irish publishers can but it is difficult for the smaller ones. That is a very simple form of marketing without involving newspapers and stuff like that. It is about getting to the bookshop with an author and celebrating the book. That is an expense and some way or other English publishers are able to absorb that expense and make it an easy thing for them to do.

As Sarah Kenny rightly said, Irish language publishers do not engage enough with the bookshops. If somebody came to me with a fantastic author and asked me to do an event, I would do it straight off. That is a simple form of marketing. Besides national press, radio, television and all that other stuff, having the actual physical body in the shop is the most important thing. The publishers are not going to bring authors to me. Every day I get requests from UK and Irish publishers in English to say they have somebody coming over and asking if we could we have an event. We have three events a week launching books or celebrating them - it does not really matter what the event is - but they are all in English. The one time I worked with Futa Fata, which was five years ago, it was fantastic. We had 60 children and it was just brilliant. It was a celebration of a book. Since then there has been nothing. It has been radio silence. That is because they are either afraid or they do not want to spend a little bit of money. Maybe that is something we could do.

With regard to overall marketing, even a poster in a window of a shop helps. I have never had one from anybody except Futa Fata. A simple poster in a shop window does wonders. It is the simplest form or marketing. People walk by and see it. This is something I have never understood. Áis could produce them but it does not. The publishers are responsible for doing that. They could even send me a PDF and I would pay for the poster but it does not happen. I find it odd.

With regard to audiobooks, it needs to be an ecosystem. It has to be encouraged somehow to get people to read the books and record them. It is not an expensive process; it just takes time. It takes 15 hours to read a book into a microphone and then it can be distributed all over the world but it is about getting people to do it, getting the right books and finding the right reader. The reader is the most important thing. If the book was read by me everybody would fall asleep but if it was read by someone who can engage properly in the language it would be fantastic.

However, that does not happen. It is not our purview as booksellers but it is something the publishers could look at or club together to do. A recording studio does not cost that much for 15 hours. It is just a case of finding the right reader and the right book and using their skills, if they have them, in publicity to show people that it is out there. As Gráínne Ní Mhuilneoir said, you cannot find them if you go looking for them.

Ms Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir

Ó thaobh na gclosleabhar de, tá sé i bhfad níos costasaí i nGaeilge mar téann níos mó eagarthóireachta isteach ann. Tá an eagarthóireacht sin an-tábhachtach, idir eagarthóireacht téacs i dtosach, rud atá costasach, agus eagarthóireacht fuaime. Is gá go dtuigfidh an duine sin Gaeilge freisin. Dúinne i gCois Life, bhí sé costasach fiú closleabhar a bhí le cur amach ar líne a dhéanamh. An t-aon fáth go raibh sé indéanta ná gur cuireadh isteach ar airgead ón gComhairle Ealaíon agus go bhfuarthas sin. Murach sin, ní fhéadfaí é a dhéanamh. Bhí sé costasach.

Ní dóigh liom go mbeidh siopaí fisiciúla leabhar ag dul i ngleic le ríomhleabhair mar, go bunúsach, is Amazon atá taobh thiar den ghnó sin agus téann an t-airgead chucusan. Ní bheadh aon spéis agam tacú leis sin agus shamhlóinn nach mbeadh spéis ag mórán siopaí neamhspleácha plé leis ach an oiread. Bheadh sé i bhfad ródheacair ár gcóras féin a bhunú mar is a leithéidí siopaí Kindle agus mar sin de a úsáideann an t-úsáideoir. Baineann sé le cad atá i gceist ag an úsáideoir agus cad an bealach is éasca. Sin an bua atá Spotify ach tá tú fós ag caint faoi chomhlacht mór idirnáisiúnta. Sin a tharlódh le haon soláthar ábhar digiteach. Is iad na comhlachtaí móra idirnáisiúnta a chumann an córas agus ansin caithfidh muidne rith leis agus féachaint cad is féidir a dhéanamh. Ní bheadh aon spéis agamsa plé leo.

Mar gheall ar chlosleabhair, is dócha gur rud éigin digiteach a bheadh ann. Táimid an-tógtha ag rá gur cheart aip nua a bhunú ach an fhadhb leis sin ná go bhfuil ceist na poiblíochta fós ann, sé sin, an féidir an scéal a scaipeadh mar gheall ar an aip sin. Tagann daoine isteach chuig An Siopa Leabhar an-mhinic ag moladh gur cheart go mbeadh X, Y, Z nó A, B, C, D na Gaeilge ann agus deir muid leo gur ann dó cheana féin. Tá daoine ag tabhairt amach dúinn mar gheall ar rud “nach bhfuil ar an margadh”, atá ann ach nach bhfuil siad eolach air. Sin mar go bhfuil an bhearna eolais chomh mór sin fiú i measc phobal na Gaeilge, gan trácht ar mhargadh na tíre. Shamhlóinn go mbeadh sé i bhfad ródheacair an scéal a scaipthe mar gheall ar chóras iomlán nua. Tá córas lárnach ann cheana féin so bheadh gá dul i ngleic leis an gcóras sin níos mó ná ceann nua a chruthú.

Tacaím leis an méid a dúradh faoi phoiblíocht. Is droch-chomhartha é amach is amach mura bhfuil muidne, mar cheann de na siopaí leabhar Gaeilge is mó sa tír, ag fáil aon eolas ó na foilsitheoirí Gaeilge. Bheinn lán-chinnte nach raibh éinne eile ag fáil eolais. Tá sé sin pléite agam leis na foilsitheoirí ceann ar cheann ó thosaigh mé sa siopa, ar bhealaí éagsúla. Tá siad ag éirí níos fearr ónár dtaobh de. Táthar ag teacht i dteagmháil linne agus tá cúpla póstaer faighte againn ach sin toisc gur chuir mé ceist. D’fhiafraigh mé an raibh póstaeir ar fáil. Fiafraím agus iarraim orthu rudaí a chur ar aghaidh chugam má tá siad ar fáil. Fiú le déanaí, tháinig foilsitheoir amháin i dteagmháil linn mar gheall ar leabhar amháin atá ag teacht amach agus rinne siad neamhaird iomlán ar leabhar eile atá amuigh cheana féin. Ní raibh mé ar an eolas faoin leabhar sin go dtí go bhfaca mé ar liosta Áis é agus dúirt Áis liom go raibh sé ar fáil. Sin an difríocht. Tá muidne, mar shiopa leabhar Gaeilge, ag feidhmiú sa phobal sin agus ag feidhmiú leis an bhfeidhm sin so ní fheiceann muidne na fadhbanna céanna. Tá an t-am agam dul trí liosta Áis mar nach bhfuil mé ag plé leis na foilsitheoirí Béarla. Níl mé sa mhargadh sin. Tá buntáiste ansin domsa mar bhainisteoir le Gaeilge i siopa Gaeilge ag díriú air sin. Is féidir liomsa an fuinneamh sin a chaitheamh. Dá mbeadh orm siopa Béarla agus Gaeilge a bhainistiú, bheadh ganntanas ama agam mar ní fhéadfainn suí síos agus breathnú trí liosta mór rudaí le fáil amach cad atá ag teacht. Tá an easpa teagmhála sin ann le blianta. Tá mé i ndiaidh é seo a lua le daoine cheana féin. Tá forbairtí déanta. Tá sé de bhuntáiste againn a bheith i lár na cathrach. Tá LeabhairCOMHAR agus An Gúm in aice linn, ar bhealach. Táimid in ann cuireadh a thabhairt d’údair theacht isteach ach tá seans go dtógfaidh sé sin cúpla mí. Le déanaí táimid ag iarraidh ar údair a theacht isteach fiú gan aon imeacht a dhéanamh, díreach le cúpla leabhar a shíniú le go bhfaighimid pictiúir do na meáin shóisialta agus gur féidir linn rá le daoine go bhfuil cóipeanna sínithe againn má tá siad ag iarraidh bualadh isteach. Cruthaíonn sé sin an comhrá leis an údar. Tá muidne ag obair air sin ach sin trí theagmháil dhíreach leis na daoine sin toisc go bhfuil an caidreamh sin againne leis na foilsitheoirí, go pointe. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an caidreamh iomlán ann.

Aontaím go bhfuil na siopaí mar chuid den phoiblíocht sin agus go bhféadfaí a bheith i bhfad níos mó. Na rudaí is mó a dhíolann leabhair dúinne ná má luaitear rud in The Irish Times, ar “Nationwide” nó ar cheann de na bealaí móra Béarla atá ann le scéal a scaipthe. Phléasc an díolachán dúinne dhá bhliain ó shin nuair a luadh leabhar Gaeilge ar an “Late Late Toy Show”. Ní hé gur mór an lua a bhí ann ach an oiread. Ní raibh ann ach nod ach tharla go raibh an leabhar againn sula raibh sé ag an-chuid siopaí eile mar go raibh muidne tar éis éisteacht leis an bhfoilsitheoir agus an saothar a ghlacadh isteach. Ní raibh sé ag daoine eile ach labhair muid leis na foilsitheoirí.

Tá ganntanas léirmheasanna ann, mar a léiríodh os comhair an choiste seo cheana féin. Chuige sin, bheadh drogall orm aon léirmheasanna cáinteacha a scríobh, cé go bhfuil neart a d’fhéadfainn a cháineadh mar gheall ar chuid de na hábhair atá ag teacht amach. Tá drogall ar dhaoine léirmheasanna den chineál sin a scríobh anois, rud nach mbíodh fíor. Bíodh muid i bhfad níos sásta dul i ngleic leis an gceist sin sna 1980aidí agus níl sé sin ann anois. Tá sé deacair léirmheas maith a aimsiú na laethanta seo, go minic. Tá an-chuid moladh ann agus an-chuid plé faoin bplota, b’fhéidir, ach níl mórán faoin stíl nó faoin gcaighdeán foilsitheoireachta nó scríbhneoireachta nó líon na mbotún cló atá sa saothar fiú. Chuige sin, tá maoiniú ag teastáil le fanacht leis na hirisí mar atá agus le forbairt a dhéanamh orthu, sé sin Comhar, Feasta, nó An Timire féin. Ní hamháin gur gá forbairt a dhéanamh ar na hirisí fisiciúla ach níos mó a dhéanamh ar líne chomh maith. D’fhéadfaí go bhfuil bealaí le léirmheasanna a chur ar fáil ar líne agus daoine a thabhairt ar bord a dhéanfaidh léirmheasanna maithe, daoine a bhfuil eolas acu ar an réimse le gur féidir léirmheas ionraic a chur amach.

Chairman

Gabh mo leithscéal ach caithfidh an Seanadóir Ó Donnghaile fágáil. Tá vóta ar siúl.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Gabh mo leithscéal as sin. Tá mé buíoch de na finnéithe.

Chairman

Is féidir leanúint ar aghaidh leis an bhfreagra agus beidh sé ar an taifead ar aon chaoi. Bíonn muid ag deifriú gach áit anseo.

Ms Gráinne Ní Mhuilneoir

Ó thaobh na poiblíochta de, tá a fhios ag na foilsitheoirí cheana féin agus sin an fhadhb. Tá sé an-deacair briseadh amach as saol na Gaeilge. Tá daoine i saol na Gaeilge, ag labhairt le saol na Gaeilge faoi rudaí i saol na Gaeilge. De réir a chéile, laghdaítear cé chomh mór is atá an ciorcal sin. Cuireann tú scéal amach uair amháin agus faigheann gach duine é agus ansin an dara huair b’fhéidir nach sroicheann sé gach duine. Faoin deichiú huair, níl aon duine ag breathnú ar an nuachtlitir níos mó. Níl éinne ag scaipeadh an scéil sa chaoi chéanna agus sin má tá tú ag tosú amach lena leithéid Madame Lazare. Nuair a scaiptear scéal faoi Madame Lazare, má luaitear é sna nuachtáin nó aon rud, bíonn buaic éigin díolacháin dúinn.

Sin an t-aon leabhar lena bhfuil sé sin ag tarlú le déanaí. Is eiseamláir an chaoi go bhfuil Futa Fata ag plé leis sin. Conas is féidir le foilsitheoirí eile é a dhéanamh? B’fhéidir nach gá dóibh an rud ceannann céanna a dhéanamh ach is féidir leo breathnú orthusan agus a rá gur eiseamláir an cur chuige sin. Fuair siad poiblíocht agus léirmheasanna. Cuidíonn sé gur leabhar an-mhaith atá ann agus bheadh sé an-éasca ar dhuine léirmheas maith a scríobh mar gheall air. Sin an cineál rud a bhíonn i gceist nuair a labhraítear faoi phoiblíocht. An rud atá ag teastáil ná a bheith luaite ar an “Late Late Show” nó in The Irish Times. Pé rud é, más eolas i mBéarla é faoi leabhair Ghaeilge nó eolas dátheangach feicfidh níos mó daoine an rud. Níl muid ag caint faoi chorpas amháin a úsáid arís is arís eile ach féachaint ar na bealaí éagsúla atá againn. An gníomh is mó gur féidir le haon duine le Gaeilge a dhéanamh ar son leabhair Ghaeilge ná a rá le daoine ar a n-aithne gurb ann do leabhair Ghaeilge, leabhair mhaithe Ghaeilge agus siopaí a dhíolann iad agus gur féidir a theacht orthu. An-mhinic, níl a fhios ag an duine é sin. Buaileann siad isteach chuig An Siopa Leabhar agus deir siad nach raibh a fhios acu go raibh an oiread sin leabhair Ghaeilge ann. Bíonn ionadh ollmhór ar dhaoine a thagann isteach chugainne. Tá réimse an-mhór againn agus ní bhíonn sé sin le feiceáil sna siopaí eile. Is cuid den phoiblíocht iad na siopaí, chomh maith leis na hirisí agus na nuachtáin agus a bheith luaite ar chláir raidió. Ní féidir é sin a bhaint amach le gach uile leabhar so cad is féidir a dhéanamh? An féidir é sin a bhaint amach le gach uile leabhar? An fiú acmhainní a dhíriú i dtreo leabhair amháin a shíltear a bheadh an-mhaith agus daoine a fháil isteach sna siopaí, siopaí nach An Siopa Leabhar iad, ag rá leis na díoltóirí leabhar go bhfuil leabhar Gaeilge uathu agus gur mhaith leo go n-ordódh siad é? Ó thaobh siopaí uile, ní hamháin muidne, an rud is fearr go bhféadfadh daoine aonair a dhéanamh ná leabhair Ghaeilge a mholadh do dhaoine eile agus a rá gurb ann dóibh. Ba chóir iad a thaispeáint más féidir ach an rud is tábhachtaí ná a rá “I saw a good Irish language book the other day. Did you know they exist?”

Chairman

Críochnóimid leis sin. Táimid tar éis ocht nó naoi seisiún a bheith againn ar an ábhar seo, rud atá an-mhór. Táimid tar éis éisteacht leis na siopaí agus na dáileoirí agus bhí Foras na Gaeilge, An Gúm agus Áis os ár gcomhair. D’éist muid le foilsitheoirí difriúla, údair dhifriúla, filí, úrscéalaithe, tráchtairí agus Aontas na Scríbhneoirí Gaeilge thar tréimhse fhada. Táimid ag déanamh iarrachta tuiscint a fháil ar conas mar atá an gnó nó an earnáil seo ó thaobh litríocht na Gaeilge, cad iad na ceisteanna móra atá ag déanamh tinnis dóibh agus cad iad na tuairimí atá ann maidir le conas déileáil leo. Chomh maith leis sin, lorg muid achainíocha ón bpobal agus tháinig roinnt acu isteach so beimid ag treabhadh trí gach rud atá ráite linn agus na freagraí a tugadh ar na ceisteanna inniu.

Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leo siúd atá anseo inniu agus leis na finnéithe ar fad a bhí anseo. Fuaireamar roinnt eolais ó fhoilsitheoireacht agus scríbhneoireacht thar lear i mionteangacha agus conas mar a thiteann rudaí i dtíortha eile. Tá an tslí ina gcaitear leo spéisiúil chomh maith. Tá súil agam na tuairimí seo ar fad a chur le chéile agus tuairisc a fhoilsiú am éigin san fhómhar le moltaí dírithe ar an Aire, ar an gComhairle Ealaíon - bhí an chomhairle agus na leabharlanna os ár gcomhair chomh maith - agus ar Áis, An Gúm agus a leithéidí agus na scríbhneoirí féin maidir le conas gur féidir linn cuidiú leo agus conas gur féidir leo cuidiú leo féin chomh maith céanna.

Bhí an comhrá inniu spéisiúil toisc gur dearcadh difriúil atá ann. Is iad na finnéithe na daoine atá ag déileáil leis an bpobal agus ag triail na leabhar atá foilsithe a dhíol. Cuirfimid cóip den tuairisc chuig na finnéithe nuair atá sí foilsithe. Má smaoiníonn siad ar aon rud eile idir seo agus an fómhar, nó má smaoiníonn aon duine atá ag éisteacht linn ar aon rud thar tréimhse an tsamhraidh, is féidir leo scríobh chugainn agus déanfaimid iarracht na tuairimí sin a chur san áireamh sa tuarascáil atá á dhéanamh againn. Cuirfear an tuarascáil sin faoi bhráid na Dála agus an tSeanaid más féidir sa chaoi go mbeidh díospóireacht níos leithne ann agus gur ar son tairbhe litríochta, scríbhneoireachta, foilsitheoireachta agus díolacháin leabhar Gaeilge a bheidh an méid ama atá caite againn ar an ábhar seo.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gceathrar finnéithe as a bheith anseo linn inniu. Tá súil agam gur bhain siad tairbhe éigin as. Tá a fhios agam gur bhain mise tairbhe as, chomh maith le tuiscint níos fearr as an réimse seo de cheist scríbhneoireacht na Gaeilge.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar fionraí ar 2.56 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 3.30 p.m.