Is féidir linn tús a chur leis an gcruinniú atá ar siúl mar ghnáthchruinniú i seomra coiste 4 Thithe an Oireachtais ach go bhfuil gné fhíorúil Microsoft Teams mar chuid de freisin. Tá ceithre comhalta i láthair sa seomra coiste agus ar líne. Is iad siúd atá i láthair ná mé féin; an Teachta Éamon Ó Cuív; an Teachta Aindrias Ó Muineacháin, atá ar líne; agus an Seanadóir Seán Kyne, atá ar líne chomh maith céanna. Tá seans go mbeidh daoine eile istigh linn i gceann tamaillín. An chéad gnó ná aitheantas a thabhairt don iar-Sheanadóir Niall Ó Donnghaile atá tar éis éirí as a phost mar Sheanadóir. Ba bhall don choiste é ar feadh tréimhse fhada. Guímid gach rath air agus gabhaimid ár mbuíochas leis as ucht an ama a chaith sé mar chomhalta don chomhchoiste seo. Glacaim leis go n-aontaíonn daoine le sin?
Cumas Dátheangach na nOifigeach Ardbhainistíochta sa Státseirbhís: Plé
Aontaím leis sin.
Cuidím leis sin.
Ábhar an lae inniu atá le plé ná cumas dátheangach na n-oifigeach ardbhainistíochta sa státseirbhís. Is mian liom fáilte a fhearadh roimh chomhaltaí an chomhchoiste, roimh comhaltaí eile a bheidh ag freastail ar an gcruinniú agus, dár ndóigh, roimh ár lucht féachana ar Theilifís an Oireachtais. Chomh maith leis sin, fearaim fáilte ar leith roimh na finnéithe atá anseo linn i seomra coiste 4: John Howlin, príomhoifigeach, atá mar ionadaí thar ceann an choiste chomhairlí um sheirbhísí Gaeilge sa Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí, Seachadadh PFN agus Athchóirithe; Ruth Cullen, príomhoifigeach cúnta sa Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí, Seachadadh PFN agus Athchóirithe; Margaret McCabe, príomhfheidhmeannach sa tSeirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí, PAS; agus Amy Mitchell, aistritheoir sa PAS. Tá na finnéithe ar fad ag freastail ar an gcruinniú ó sheomra coiste 4. D’iarr muid ar dhaoine eile a bheith i láthair ach ní raibh sé ar a gcumas a bheith linn.
An fáth go bhfuilimid ag díriú isteach air seo ná, ó 2030 ar aghaidh, go dtiocfaidh na ceapacháin ardleibhéil Ard Rúnaithe agus ard-rúnaithe cúnta na Ranna Stáit éagsúla faoi Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla, 2021 agus faoin fhoráil go mbeidh 20% de na poist sin ag oifigigh a bhfuil líofacht fheidhmiúil sa Ghaeilge agus sa Bhéarla acu. Tagann na ceapacháin seo ar fad faoi scáth Coiste na gCeapachán Ardleibhéil, TLAC, agus is chuige sin a thugamar cuireadh de chathaoirleach an choiste sin teacht os ár gcomhair. Tá díomá orainn nach raibh sí in ann freastal ar an gcruinniú inniu. Dúirt sí nár shíl sí go mbeadh sé oiriúnach freastal ar an gcruinniú toisc go bhfuil siad i lár oibre ar an bplean náisiúnta maidir le seirbhísí Gaeilge i dtaca le cúrsaí earcaíochta. Sin ráite, tá súil agam go mbeidh sí in ann teacht os ár gcomhair ag am eile as seo amach nuair a mbeidh an plean náisiúnta sin críochnaithe agus nuair a mbeidh muid ag déanamh cíoradh ar a luafar maidir le hearcaíocht ag na leibhéil dhifriúla. Tá roinnt de ar eolas againn cheana féin.
Sula leanfaimid ar aghaidh lenár mbreathnú ar an ábhar seo, tá sé de dhualgas orm na rialacha agus na treoracha seo a leanas a leagan faoi bhráid na gcomhaltaí, na mball foirne agus na bhfinnéithe atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú seo: meabhraím do chomhaltaí, d’fhinnéithe agus do bhaill fhoirne a chinntiú go bhfuil a ngutháin soghluaiste múchta le linn an chruinnithe mar is féidir leis na gléasanna sin cur as do chóras craolacháin, eagarthóireachta agus fuaime Thithe an Oireachtais. Tá an rogha ag comhaltaí freastal ar an gcruinniú go fisiciúil sa seomra coiste nó go fíorúil ar Microsoft Teams, ar an gcoinníoll, i gcás cruinnithe phoiblí, gur óna n-oifigí i dTithe an Oireachtais a dhéantar sin. Is riachtanas bunreachtúil é sin. Má tá comhaltaí ag freastal óna n-oifigí, ba chóir go mbeadh a bhfíseán ar siúl an t-am go léir agus iad ag labhairt agus go mbeadh siad le feiceáil ar an scáileán. Baineann na coinníollacha seo le finnéithe atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú go fíorúil, rud nach bhfuil i gceist inniu. Ba chóir dóibh siúd atá ag teacht isteach ar an gcruinniú go fíorúil a chinntiú go mbíonn na micreafóin múchta nuair nach bhfuil siad ag caint sa chruinniú. Níor mhaith liom aon chomhrá eile a chloisint nó aon chomhráite pearsanta a thaifead.
Cuirim ar aird na bhfinnéithe go bhfuil siad, de bhua Bhunreacht na hÉireann agus reachtaíochta araon, faoi chosaint ag lánphribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don chomhchoiste chomh fada agus atá siad lonnaithe laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais agus an fhianaise sin á tabhairt acu. Molaim d'fhinnéithe a bheith cúramach agus iad ag tabhairt fianaise agus má ordaíonn an comhchoiste dóibh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe, ba cheart go ndéanfar amhlaigh láithreach. Ordaítear dóibh gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé ag an gcomhchoiste. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a chuireann siad faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo. Fiafraítear d’fhinnéithe agus do chomhaltaí araon cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, duine nó eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha nó ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear dóibh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar dóibh éirí as an ráiteas sin láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidh siad leis an ordú sin láithreach má eisítear é.
Anois, agus é sin ar fad ráite agus aontaithe againn, iarraim ar John Howlin a ráiteas tosaigh a dhéanamh thar ceann an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí, Seachadadh PFN agus Athchóirithe.
Mr. John Howlin
I thank the Chair and members of the committee for their invitation to discuss the recruitment system for senior posts in the Civil Service, particularly in the context of the relevant recruitment provisions in the Official Languages (Amendment) Act 2021. I am joined by my colleague Ruth Cullen, who also works in the area of Civil Service recruitment in the Department.
First, by way of background on Civil Service recruitment policy, I think it would be useful to outline the key structures for recruitment in the public service. The Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Act 2004 established the key elements of the current legal framework for recruitment in the public service and Civil Service. This framework consists of an oversight body called the Commission for Public Service Appointments, CPSA, and a centralised recruitment body, the Public Appointments Service, or PAS, and also provides for a system of voluntary recruitment licensing for individual bodies that allows them to hire directly. The CPSA is the principal regulator of recruitment and selection in the Irish public service and ensures that appointments are fair, transparent and merit-based. As required under the Act, recruitment under licence is subject to codes of practice drawn up by the CPSA which set out the principles that should be followed when making an appointment. The Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Act 2004 also establishes that the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is responsible for matters relating to recruitment in the Civil Service. This includes eligibility criteria, staff numbers, grading, pay and other working conditions. It further provides that other Ministers have responsibility in respect of the recruitment of public servants and bodies under the aegis of their Departments.
Regarding senior recruitment in the Civil Service, the top-level appointments committee, more commonly referred to as TLAC, is a non-statutory committee established by Government decision in 1984. The committee's function is to recommend candidates to Ministers and the Government for the most senior positions in the Civil Service at assistant secretary level and upwards. There are currently 16 members of TLAC; nine external members one of whom one is the chair, and seven members from within the Civil Service who are at Secretary General grade.
All members are appointed by the Taoiseach following nomination by the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform and agreement by the Government.
The TLAC selection process can be summarised into the following phases: shortlisting, preliminary interviews and final interviews. The final stage of the selection process is for the interview board to make its recommendation. For assistant secretary and equivalent and deputy secretary and equivalent posts, which make up the majority of TLAC posts, TLAC will recommend one candidate only to the hiring Secretary General for appointment by the relevant Minister. For Secretary General posts considered by TLAC, TLAC may recommend up to three candidates to the hiring Minister who, in the committee's judgment, meet the required standard for the post. The Government is the appointing authority for Secretaries General, as set out in the Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924. The relevant Minister recommends a particular appointment to the Government based on his or her consideration of TLAC’s recommendation. Appointment of a Secretary General is made following approval by the Cabinet.
As the committee will be aware, the Irish-language services advisory committee was established by the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in June 2022 under section 18 of the Official Languages (Amendment) Act 2021. One of the key functions of the advisory committee is to prepare a national plan for Irish-language public services, which is to be submitted to the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media for approval by mid-2024. A key objective of this national plan is to reach the recruitment target laid down in Act that at least 20% of staff recruited to public bodies will be competent in the Irish language by 31 December 2030.
The committee comprises members from a range of public service bodies and representatives for Gaeltacht language planning areas and areas of the State that are not Gaeltacht language planning areas, who are appointed by the Minister. I participate on the committee in respect of my role in recruitment policy in the Civil Service and PAS is also represented in respect of the recruitment role I have just outlined. The work of the committee is ongoing and the final report will provide guidance as to roles within the public service requiring competency in the Irish language and potential strategies in the short, medium and longer term aimed at providing a broad pool of candidates capable of filling those roles. I am happy to answer any questions the committee may have.
Sula nglactar le ceisteanna, iarrfaidh mé ar Margaret McCabe a ráiteas tosaigh a thabhairt.
Ms Margaret McCabe
I thank the chairperson and members of the joint committee for their invitation to today’s meeting. As requested by the committee, I am here to discuss the role of the Public Appointments Service, PAS, in TLAC’s functional model in respect of senior management jobs in the Civil Service and the requirement under the Official Languages (Amendment) Act 2021 for at least 20% of the public service to consist of functional bilingual officers by 2030 and the measures taken by PAS in this regard. My colleague, Amy Mitchell, who is the senior manager with responsibility for the Irish language unit in PAS, is with me today.
PAS is the recruitment and resourcing service provider for client organisations in the civil and public service. We are responsible for the sourcing, assessment and delivery of quality candidates to those clients, which include the Civil Service, local authorities, An Garda Síochána, the HSE and other public bodies. With regard to TLAC appointments, we run the initial stages of the recruitment process on behalf of TLAC, from advertising up to preliminary interviews, and also run the final stages of the recruitment process for specialist TLAC level roles, as agreed by TLAC. We operate under the Commission for Public Service Appointments code of practice in this regard.
We are aware of the Official Languages Act requirement for at least 20% of staff recruited to the public service to consist of staff who are competent in the Irish language by 2030 and this is a key element of our current strategy and our submissions to the Department as to the investment needed to deliver on this legislative requirement. We nominated a member of the PAS board of management to the language services advisory committee and are fully committed to implementing any recommendations on recruitment included in national plan for Irish-language services, which I understand is currently in development by this committee.
We are also at the initial stages of a brand strategy implementation project that will allow us to better drive recruitment solutions in a difficult recruitment market. A key element of our approach includes the requirement to attract candidates with Irish-language proficiency to public service roles at all levels. This will also inform a tailored attraction strategy for the most senior level of posts with a particular emphasis on the Irish language to be achieved through a significant broadening and strengthening of our advertising base and reach and the development of more comprehensive and targeted recruitment marketing campaigns across a range of media platforms and formats. We have been examining how we can build on the strength of Publicjobs.ie as the acknowledged key central gateway to careers in the public service alongside its established dual-language offering. In 2022, we launched a public service recruiters network in collaboration with the CPSA. In June 2023, we hosted a session with the theme of the Official Languages (Amendment Act) 2021 and key provisions relating to recruitment. The session was very timely to raise awareness on how to increase the number of Irish speakers in the public sector by 2030. We are committed to achieving progress in this area and have planned another such network event for the fourth quarter of 2024 in order to consider developments in this area across the public service. We work closely with our clients recruiting through the medium of Irish to design the process to achieve the best outcome. I look forward to engaging with the action plan of the Irish-language advisory committee to see how best PAS can contribute. I am happy to answer any questions this committee may have.
An bhfuil ceachtar de na comhaltaí atá ar líne ag iarraidh ceist a chur ag an staid seo?
Níl go fóill.
Tosóidh mé agus tiocfaidh mé ar ais chuig an Seanadóir má tá ceisteanna aige ag an staid sin. Ar dtús báire, gabhaim buíochas as an méid atá ráite ag na finnéithe. Níl a fhios agam an dtuigeann siad cé chomh lárnach is atá an obair atá acu maidir le hearcaíocht agus daoine a earcú don státseirbhís nó córas poiblí amach anseo chun seirbhísí a chur ar fáil i nGaeilge. Is é an dúshlán atá ag teacht síos ar an dá eagras agus ar an gcoiste nach bhfuil linn inniu ná na poist sin a líonadh. Is é 20% an minimum faoi 2030. Is dúshlán mór agus jab mór é sin. Nuair a bhí muidne ag plé Bille na dTeangacha Oifigiúla, thuig muid go raibh jab mór le déanamh. Measaim gur thuig an tAire Stáit é sin freisin. Shíl muidne, nó shíl mise ar aon chaoi, go mbeadh muid níos mó chun tosaigh ó thaobh a bheith cinnte go mbeidh an Stát in ann an 20% sin a chomhlíonadh. Níl a fhios agam. B'fhéidir gur féidir leis na finnéithe míniú a thabhairt ar an méid atá tarlaithe ó 2021 go dtí anois chun cuidiú le daoine atá ag cur isteach ar phoist sna córais dhifriúla an Ghaeilge atá acu a léiriú. An bhfuil a n-eagraíochtaí ag déanamh cinnte de go dtuigeann daoine óga, daoine atá ag teacht amach as an ollscoil agus daoine eile cé chomh lárnach a mbeidh an Ghaeilge amach anseo?
Mr. John Howlin
As I said, I am a member of the Irish-language services advisory committee. There is a lot of working going on with a view to developing the kind of system the Deputy has described to attract Irish-language speakers and to ensure they can fill the gaps in service provision identified by the committee. Ms McCabe might speak to the range of competitions being run in that regard. The OneLearning service, the learning and development service, also comes under my Department. This runs a range of training courses. These are now certified by TEG and so fall under the recognised European language framework. Over recent years, more than 1,000 civil servants have gone through one of those OneLearning courses, which run from A1, the beginner level, up to B2, an intermediate level acknowledged by the experts in Maynooth as sufficient to allow someone to interact to deliver a public service.
The Department, PAS and the Irish advisory committee recognise that innovation is needed in creating new recruitment pathways and developing this new system.
We are looking at new pathways in, one of which is an apprenticeship model. There has been work with the Department of further and higher education and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to develop that but it takes a bit of time to develop an apprenticeship of that nature. We are facilitating civil servants in developing their Irish-language capabilities, seeking to attract Irish-language speakers and developing the skills we need in the public service through those types of apprenticeships. We are also looking at internships. More generally, we are looking at opportunities, including those created by the Act, in respect of communications. There are different requirements and targets in that regard, which may create new opportunities to bring Irish-language speakers into the system. We are looking at bringing in new Irish-language speakers to support those kinds of targets.
Ms Margaret McCabe
The Cathaoirleach is probably aware that we run a number of campaigns for Irish competitions. We have campaigns running at the moment for clerical officer, executive officer and higher executive officer. Unfortunately, the numbers applying are quite low. We have been struggling with this for quite a while. There are a number of vacancies that we are trying to fill but there have been some difficulties. We are hoping that, with the refreshing of our brand, the targeting of communications towards Irish speakers and all that is going on at the moment to promote the use of the Irish language, people will begin to realise that these are really good and worthwhile jobs.
When somebody has got through the interview, cé chomh fada is it before they are appointed?
Ms Margaret McCabe
It depends. We have a clearance process where we look back over people's previous employment. Depending on where the vacancy is, how long they have been out of work or if they have been in work and the sorts of checks we need to do, they could be appointed very quickly. Generally speaking, appointments should not be held up.
Tá aithne agam ar leaid óg le Gaeilge. Bhí sé ar an bpainéal Gaeilge le naoi mí sular tugadh post dó. Bhí sé gan aon jab istigh sa bhaile. Tuigim go dtarlaíonn sé sin uaireanta.
Ms Margaret McCabe
Tá sé sin uafásach.
Má tá daoine le Gaeilge ag cur isteach ar phoist, go háirithe san am atá againn nuair nach bhfuil daoine socair, caithfidh na poist a bheith ann chomh tapa agus is féidir nó beidh siad imithe thar lear nó go dtí post éigin eile. Tá sé go maith cloisteáil faoi OneLearning, na apprenticeships agus an internship. Faoi láthair, an bhfuil mórán post ann a bhfuil coinníoll Gaeilge ag baint leo, is é sin le rá, go gcaithfidh leibhéal Gaeilge a bheith ag iarrthóirí? Tá a fhios agam go mbeidh amach anseo.
Ms Margaret McCabe
There is a certain number. All of the post-primary inspectors would need a level of Irish, as would aistritheoirí. A number of jobs would require Irish. I am not talking about jobs purely through Irish, although some, like aistritheoirí, are.
Ardaíodh ceist linn faoi phost mar phríomhfheidhmeannach comhairle contae le haghaidh contae ina bhfuil ceantar Gaeltachta. Ní raibh aon choinníoll Gaeilge ann don phost. An gnáthrud é sin? An rud é sin go gcaithfidh an coiste atá ag déileáil leis an bplean náisiúnta díriú isteach air?
Ms Margaret McCabe
It is difficult for me to answer that because the Department of housing sets the qualifications and so on for the chief executives of local authorities. It is not something I can really speak on. Perhaps Mr. Howlin can.
Mr. John Howlin
No, but I might make a more general point. At the very senior levels, there is a range of competencies, skills and expertise required. There can be an Irish-language component to that but it may not be expressed the same way as in the case of translation posts and other posts like that. One of the key functions of the committee will be to take a view across the public service as to the posts that should have an Irish-language component. It will also have to consider the standard that should apply because the standard expected for different posts can be a bit unclear. That kind of clarity will be very important in looking at recruitment.
Tá an Teachta Moynihan ag iarraidh ceist a chur.
Táim chun díriú isteach ar chúpla gné faoi leith. Mar a luaigh an Cathaoirleach, tá sprioc dhúshlánach ansin leis an 20%, ar a laghad, d'earcaithe. Cloisim ó na finnéithe go mbeidh córas á chur le chéile chun dul i ngleic leis sin. Cé chomh tapa a bheidh siad ag súil go mbeidh siad ag díriú isteach air sin agus ag baint amach an líon sin? An bhféadfaidís treoir a thabhairt air sin?
Idir an dá linn, leanfaidh an córas reatha chun daoine a earcú. Mar a luadh, tá roinnt post fógartha agus is amhlaidh go bhfuil sé deacair iad a líonadh agus nach bhfuil puinn iarratas orthu. Cén fáth? Cad iad na constaicí? Conas atá na heagraíochtaí ag déileáil leis sin? Cloisimid go bhfuil roinnt mhaith Gaeilgeoirí líofa nach ndéanann iarratas ar an sruth Gaelainne, cuir i gcás, i gcomhair An Garda Síochána. Is dóigh liom go dtarlaíonn a leithéid sin le poist eile chomh maith. Cén fáth? Cad iad na constaicí agus conas atáthar á láimhseáil agus ag mealladh na daoine sin atá ann cheana féin i dtreo na bpost sin?
Ms Margaret McCabe
On the question of how long it will take us to get started on the 20%, we are waiting on the outcome of the advisory committee's work because it is looking at levels. That is probably something we need to encourage more. We need to see what level we want to bring people in at and the level of Irish they will need. On the vacancies that are hard to fill, we advertise as broadly as we can. There are not a lot of places to advertise campaigns through Irish but we always advertise them as broadly as possible. On the Garda, we get a small number of people applying for the Garda trainee competition but it does not seem to be an area people from Gaeltacht areas are very interested in.
B'fhéidir go bhfuil míthuiscint ann i dtaobh na ceiste. Maidir leis an gcóras reatha, cén fáth nach bhfuil daoine ag déanamh iarratas? Cén fáth a bhfuil an líon sin chomh híseal? Cad iad na constaicí atá feicthe ag PAS? Tá sé ag plé leis seo go laethúil. Seolann sé amach fógraí ag lorg daoine chun poist a líonadh. Conas atá sé sin á láimhseáil? Surely, níl sé ag scaoileadh amach na fógraí agus an rud a fhágáil ansin. Cad iad na hiarrachtaí atá á ndéanamh chun daoine a mhealladh i dtreo na bpost? Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil siad ann. Thug mé sampla An Gharda ach níl ansin ach sampla. Táim cinnte go bhfuil a leithéid ag tarlú i gcomhair post eile. Cad iad na hiarrachtaí atá PAS ag déanamh faoi láthair chun na Gaeilgeoirí atá ann a mhealladh chuige? Tá sé soiléir dó féin go bhfuil deacracht ann. Cad iad na constaicí atá aitheanta aige? Cad atá ar siúl aige chun dul i ngleic leis sin?
Mr. John Howlin
I will just pick up on a couple of points Ms McCabe made. Part of the work the committee is undertaking is a baseline exercise, which is supported by the University of Galway, to determine the level of Irish-language speakers across the civil and public service. As the Deputy may be aware, Irish speakers are occasionally reluctant to identify themselves for fear of being pigeonholed. In looking to meet and exceed the target, it is important to understand the level we are working from.
There could be a number of factors. We have looked at this from a number of different perspectives for the groups we want to target. In some cases, it is quite simply that Irish speakers do not consider a job in the Civil Service. The PAS is reaching out at school level in a number of different ways and through various activities. I mentioned the apprenticeship model, which has been developed to reach out to Irish-language speakers to give them the support they might need where they may not have the other skills and experience. The aim is to develop those skills to bring such people into the Civil Service. In some instances, it is a question of breaking down barriers. A significant challenge for us is the number of Iris speakers who will be applying for this. It is a matter of the attractiveness of the positions and the recruitment pool itself. There is work to be done on having people coming out with a good level of Irish and being able to apply for these jobs. A number of different factors need to be looked at and are being looked at.
Ms Margaret McCabe
The numbers are very low but that is not unusual at the moment because we are struggling with numbers because of full employment across the sector and not just in the Irish sector. It is quite difficult but there is a piece around the attractiveness of the jobs and the perception that one will be pigeonholed into the Irish area and will not get anywhere else. It is difficult and we have changed the process over the years. There are not even tests for some of the posts and we are still finding it difficult to fill the posts. It is tricky and it is not good.
An bhfuil sé sin ceart go leor don Teachta?
Luaigh an bheirt chainteoir “pigeonholing” agus glacaim gurb í seo ceann de na fadhbanna atá aitheanta. Cad iad na céimeanna atá á dtógáil ag ár bhfinnéithe chun é sin a cheartú nó chun déileáil leis sin faoi láthair?
Is é an dara rud ná go bhfógraíonn an tseirbhís gach saghas poist eile agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil riachtanais i gcomhair teangacha eile nó faoi scileanna ar leith. Más rud é nach bhfuil iarrthóirí tagtha chuig an tseirbhís leis na scileanna éagsúla atá á lorg aici, cad a dhéanann an tseirbhís chun iad a mhealladh?
Mr. John Howlin
On people being pigeonholed, to a certain extent it is a perception issue. We identify posts where there are gaps in service delivery. Identifying that there is a range of posts where competence in the Irish language is required will help with that. People will see that there is a variety of posts now available to Irish speakers.
An dtéann an tseirbhís ar ais chuig an bhfostóir ansin chun a mhíniú dó go bhfuil an deacracht seo ann agus go bhfuil athrú éigin riachtanach?
Mr. John Howlin
When the report from the committee comes out later this year, that will be a big piece and we will be communicating that obviously-----
No, táim ag fiosrú faoi phoist atá á líonadh nó atá an tseirbhís ag iarraidh a líonadh faoi láthair. Nuair a bhíonn deacracht ag an tseirbhís, b'fhéidir, cosúil le pigeonholing, an dtéann an tseirbhís ar ais chuig an bhfostóir chun a mhíniú dó go bhfuil sé seo, faoi leith, ag cur isteach ar an earcú seo agus go dteastaíonn ón tseirbhís athrú éigin a dhéanamh ar an bpost, nó ar an bpost mar atá sé fógartha?
Ms Margaret McCabe
I can take that question. When we find a post that we cannot fill, we would go back to the Department. We would work closely with any Department, which I believe I said in my opening statement, to see what we can do differently this time which might attract more people in. We would do the same with any difficult-to-fill posts and not just posts through Irish as there are other posts with which we would have to do that. We would try to see if there are any other areas we can address.
In PAS, we always put together an advertising plan for the areas we need to focus on to see if we can get posts filled within those vacancies. As I have said, the numbers are just not applying but that is across the board. It is the same for all the Civil Service grades at the moment. The numbers are not applying like they were in the past because there is full employment. It is that attraction piece. We do it through the schools and school projects. We have done quite a bit of work on that to uplift the number of Irish-language applicants.
Feicim go bhfuil an Seanadóir Kyne ag iarraidh teacht isteach. Ina dhiaidh sin, feicim go bhfuil an Teachta McHugh linn chomh maith. Ligfidh mé don Teachta McHugh teacht i ndiaidh an Seanadóir Kyne.
Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe anseo chuig an gcoiste seo: John Howlin, Margaret McCabe agus Ruth Cullen. I dtús báire ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a ghabháil le Feargal Ó Coigligh, an tArd-Rúnaí nua sa Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán. Is duine é atá líofa sa Ghaeilge. Tá sé sin tábhachtach don Roinn atá ag plé le cúrsaí sa Ghaeltacht agus le cúrsaí Gaeilge. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas freisin a ghabháil le Catherine Licken, an t-iarArd-Rúnaí, as an obair atá déanta aici sa Roinn le seacht mbliana anuas.
Teastaíonn daoine le Gaeilge ar gach uile leibhéal sa státseirbhís agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil sé níos éasca daoine a fháil ag an leibhéal is ísle ar dtús agus beidh na hoibrithe sin ag teacht dá réir tríd an státseirbhís agus ag fáil ardú céime thar na blianta. An bhfuil an t-ábhar seo á phlé ag leibhéal ard sa Roinn caiteachais phoiblí nó an bhfuil an teagmháil nó an caidreamh sin idir an Roinn agus an tSeirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí?
Mr. John Howlin
This is one of the very significant issues we talk about with PAS on an ongoing basis. We have regular meetings with Ms McCabe and her team about a number of issues but this would be one of the key things. I would also say that the Official Languages Act and the targets set out in that are reflected in the Civil Service Renewal 2030 plan and there is a commitment in that which is signed up to by all Secretaries General. A public service conference is being run by my Department next month looking at the workforce of the future and the Official Languages Act is one of the key agenda items on that conference. Colleagues from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media are also speaking at that conference and it will be addressing issues such as inclusion and skills. It represents both aspects of both service delivery and inclusion as well as the skills requirements going forward. It is part of the very significant strategic discussions which are happening around the Civil Service and that Civil Service renewal strategy, but also the wider public service. Myself and my colleague from PAS who sits on the Irish-language services advisory committee would have regular discussions about this. We would have general discussions about new pathways. As Ms McCabe has said, we are in a very tight labour market at the moment in any event and we need to look at new ways of doing things. Looking at those new models through the Irish prism is something we will also be doing quite regularly in what might work with the Irish language. That is where some the discussions and models we will be looking at now around the apprenticeships and internships will be coming from, where they could work, and what areas they could work in.
Ms Margaret McCabe
Yes, we work closely with whatever the relevant Department is - for example, with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform - to see if there is anything else we can do or be involved in. We have had quite a number of discussions to see how we can increase the number of people coming in. We can only do the recruitment piece. We can feed back what we need to and my colleagues on the committee are feeding that back in also as part of that group.
Is there a driver within the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for this? An bhfuil daoine sinsearacha sa Roinn ag cur brú ar na finnéithe maidir leis an gceist seo?
Ag leibhéal polaitíochta, an Ard-Rúnaí nó an leas-ard-rúnaí, an bhfuil an brú sin ag teacht ó na daoine ag an leibhéal sin?
That is the million-dollar question.
Mr. John Howlin
The Senator would be aware that the 20% is a very clear target. There is a significant awareness across the whole of the Civil Service, including in my own Department at senior levels, about that and, quite frankly, about the challenges of meeting that. There have been and are ongoing discussions about what that might mean. There is a regular discussion around recruitment. Recruitment generally is a matter which involves some discussion at the moment. This is something that there is a large amount of discussion about. The conference I mentioned would be having very senior HR managers from across the public service attending, so there is a very clear awareness that the target is there, that this is Government policy and that it needs to be met. Whether I am coming under pressure is probably a different question but it is something we are committed to in the Department and in our engagement with the Public Appointments Service, PAS, through the Civil Service Renewal 2030 plan and through the transformation plan across the public service as well. Any Government commitment and policy is something we would be working towards delivering upon.
Ms Margaret McCabe
Is the question whether I am coming under pressure from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform?
Yes.
Ms Margaret McCabe
I am always under pressure. Recruitment is always under pressure. We have recruited for years for different posts through Irish and there is always a pressure to do our best and to get the best we can from it. We are taking this very seriously from an advertising point of view and we are looking at everything. There is not a huge amount of areas to advertise through Gaeilge at the moment so we are looking at that very carefully. Anything we are doing, we are using a lens as to how we can increase the numbers applying. That is the pressure. I do not have a Minister as such because of our independence.
Tá a fhios agam gur ceann de na róil thábhachtacha é sa Roinn caiteachais phoiblí mar is é sin an ról atá á chur i bhfeidhm ag an Roinn sin ó thaobh earcaíochta de. Ba cheart mar sin go mbeadh ról tábhachtach ag an Roinn agus go mbeadh an Roinn ag cur brú ar chuile phíosa den státseirbhís chun an sprioc seo a bhaint amach nó go mbeadh dul chun cinn maith chun an céatadán seo a bhaint amach. Gabhaim buíochas lenár bhfinnéithe as a bhfreagraí.
Iarraim ar an Teachta McHugh labhairt anois, lena thoil.
Cuirim fáilte roimh na daoine atá anseo inniu. Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le mo chomhghleacaithe as an díospóireacht seo. Tá sé iontach tábhachtach. Tá cúpla ceist agam agus táim ag iarraidh bhur mbarúlacha a fháil maidir le cúpla ábhar.
An bhfuil ár bhfinnéithe ag déanamh aon taighde nó tomhas ar an gcaighdeán Gaeilge atá ag na déagóirí atá ag teacht amach tar éis na hardteistiméireachta, ní hamháin ó na Gaelscoileanna agus ó na Gaelcholáistí sa Ghaeltacht ach an caighdeán sna scoileanna dara leibhéal a fheidhmíonn trí mheán an Bhéarla?
An bhfuil an caighdeán don tslí isteach ag déanamh sárú ar an earcaíocht? An bhfuil fadhb leis an gcaighdeán sin? Cúpla bliain ó shin, bhí fadhbanna agus deacracht faoin gcaighdeán agus bhí an caighdeán iontach ard ag an am. An bhfuil aon athrú ar an gcaighdeán, mar shampla do dhuine atá ag teacht amach ó na scoileanna dara leibhéal a tógadh sa Ghaeltacht? Tá neart Gaeilge acu. B'fhéidir go mbeadh fadhbanna leis an gcaighdeán maidir leis an scríbhneoireacht. Bhí siad in ann an Ghaeilge a labhairt agus ní raibh fadhb ar bith acu leis sin ach b'fhéidir go mbeadh ceist mhór ann maidir leis na scileanna scríbhneoireachta, léimh agus le rudaí mar sin.
Maidir le ceist a trí, táim ag smaoineamh faoi na haistritheoirí san Eoraip. Tá scéal dearfach bainte amach maidir le fáil réidh leis an maolú san Eoraip anois. Tá an t-éileamh ann ansin dá bharr anois. An bhfuil sé sin ag cothú aon fhadhbanna nó mhíbhuntáistí? Táim ag smaoineamh faoin gcomórtas idir na poist sa státseirbhís agus na daoine atá ag smaoineamh faoi na deiseanna atá ar fáil anois sa Bhruiséil nó i Strasbourg. Is léir go bhfuil an figiúr 20% mar shlat tomhais. Níl an t-ábhar seo éasca agus is é an rud is mó i mo thuairim féin ná an teachtaireacht dhearfach a bhaint amach do na tuismitheoirí agus na deiseanna atá ar fáil anois do dhaoine le Gaeilge. B'fhéidir go mbeadh seans ann faoi choinne níos mó teachtaireachtaí a fhoilsiú tríd na meáin agus na meáin shóisialta. Cinnte, tá ár bhfinnéithe á dhéanamh sin ach b'fhéidir go mbeadh níos mó deiseanna ann faoi choinne sin amach anseo fosta.
Cé atá ag iarraidh tús a chur leo sin?
Mr. John Howlin
On the research, the level of Irish coming out of schools is not something I would be looking at as part of my role but it has come up as an issue in the broader considerations of the advisory committee. There have been some concerns expressed but the work that is going on, while it is not going on in the committee, is going on in parallel regarding the standards. It is very important to have that clarity around the standards. I think there is some work going on with the Department of Education but it is not my area to look at Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge, TEG, as something which could be used within the post-primary system. If that sort of European framework were brought in, it would address some of the concerns mentioned by the Deputy which have been expressed at the committee.
On the standards in recruitment, to a certain extent the same considerations may apply. Anecdotally, we would hear of problems where someone would put in a job spec mentioning fluency in Irish or in another language but that might mean different things to different people. Again, the standards make the expectations around the post much clearer. I would hope that would come into play a bit more.
More generally, OneLearning surveys people who go on those training courses. In the autumn term last year, the most recent term, 65% of individuals indicated that they use what they have learned on the course in their jobs. There is some positive news around the training going on there.
Finally, Deputy McHugh spoke about the EU and that new very positive development there. In practice, it results in more competition for Irish speakers in what Ms McCabe has already said it is a very tight market. It is one of the things we are looking at in developing our own models and approaches to attracting Irish-language speakers into the Civil Service and public service. The Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media was involved in that project, as the committee is aware, and some of the lessons it learned from that are things that we are looking to apply in the Civil Service again. There are also positives we can take from that and it is more generally positive that there are more opportunities available also.
Ms Margaret McCabe
There is huge competition for any of those jobs in Brussels, particularly in the area of the aistritheoir.
The pay is obviously much better in Brussels so we struggle there a little bit. As regards the standard and level of Irish, it is hard to say. We have not done any research into the levels coming through but we have separated out all our general grade competitions from the English competitions. There are separate competitions for people who are applying through Irish because people were ticking both boxes, saying that they could do Irish and English, but they could not do the Irish at all. It is a struggle. We do not use tests for the clerical grades any more. That is purely based on interview. People will be interviewed through Irish. It is a pretty straightforward way of coming in. The fact that some people are better at the spoken language than the written language could work in their favour. However, you do need to have a good level. You need to be able to write in the language as well as speak it. I imagine that COGG would have some idea as to the difference between levels in Gaelscoileanna and scoileanna Béarla.
Gabhaim buíochas as sin. Bhí sé iontach cuimsitheach.
Gabh mo leithscéal, táim idir dhá choiste. Táim ar an gcoiste iompair agus tá cúrsaí bóithre iarainn á bplé taobh istigh ansin so níor chuala mé gach rud atá ráite. Mar sin, b'fhéidir go mbeidh mé ag treabhadh na dtailte don dara huair.
Maidir le hearcaíocht i láthair na huaire, dúradh go mbíonn comórtais faoi leith do Ghaeilgeoirí. Má chuireann duine isteach ar an gcomórtas sin, an é an rud a tharlódh ná go gcuirfear é nó í ag obair in áit a bhfuil Gaeilge riachtanach? An ndúntar amach iad ó phoist ghinearálta sa státseirbhís? Ba mhaith liom soiléiriú ar an gceist sin. D'iarr muid an soiléiriú sin cheana ach ní bhfuair muid é. Agus mé ag obair chuile lá, déanaim mo chuid oibre trí Bhéarla agus trí Ghaeilge. Táim chomh cumasach i mBéarla leis an gcéad duine eile. Cad chuige nach mbeadh? Is í an difríocht atá ann ná go bhfuil mé ar mo chompord a bheith ag obair trí Ghaeilge freisin. Níl aon Ghaeilgeoir ar eolas agam a bheadh ag cur isteach ar jab sa státseirbhís nach bhfuil Béarla aige nó aici. Mar sin, is é an rud atá againn ná daoine nach bhfuil acu ach Béarla agus daoine a bhfuil sé ar a gcumas feidhmiú trí Ghaeilge agus trí Bhéarla. Má chuirim isteach ar an gcomórtas Gaeilge, an gcoinneofar amach mé ó na poist a bhfuil Béarla in uachtar iontu as sin amach? Mar sin, an mbeidh mo sheansanna ó thaobh dul chun cinn sa tseirbhís phoiblí teoranta dá bharr? Is í sin an chéad cheist.
Is í an dara ceist ná, ar thuig mé ón tagairt a ndearnadh go mbíonn sé deacair ar an tseirbhís dóthain iarrthóirí fíorcháilithe a fháil do na comórtais Ghaeilge? Cén céatadán den earcaíocht atá i gceist ansin? Is é sin, cén céatadán de na poist uilig atá ina bpoist a bhfuil sé ráite fúthu go gcaithfidh Gaeilge a bheith ag an duine? Tabharfaidh sé sin tomhas dúinn ar an gcnoc atá le dreapadh againn as seo go 2030.
Baineann an chéad cheist eile atá agam leis an gceapachán le gairid. Tréaslaím leis an té a fuair an jab mar Ard-Rúnaí ar an Roinn turasóireachta. Tá togha na Gaeilge aige agus buíochas le Dia go bhfuil ach ní léir ó na freagraí a fuair muid go raibh aon riachtanas ann go mbeadh Gaeilge ag an té sin. Más buan mo chuimhne, ba é an rud a bhí ráite ná go mbeadh sé "indéanta" go mbeadh. Ó thaobh seirbhíse de agus tar éis cúram Aire na Gaeltachta a bheith orm ar feadh píosa fada, is deacair domsa a thuiscint cén chaoi go bhféadfaí duine a cheapadh sa Roinn a chuimsíonn na freagrachtaí Gaeltachta gan Gaeilge scríofa agus labhartha a bheith ar a chumas nó ar a cumas aige nó aici. Ba é mo chuimhne ar an Roinn ná go raibh na meamraim a bhí á scaipeadh maidir le cúrsaí Gaeltachta scríofa i nGaeilge. Tháinig na nithe inmheánacha a bhain leis sin chugam go minic agus níor aistríodh iad go Béarla. Cad chuige a d'aistreofaí? Mar a chéile, nuair a bhí muid ag plé gnóthaí sna Forbacha, ba lingua franca na hoifige an Ghaeilge agus rinneamar an plé ar fad i nGaeilge. Níor úsáideadh an Béarla riamh i mo thaithí. Cén chaoi a bhféadfadh Ard-Rúnaí feidhmiú gan é sin a bhriseadh mura mbeadh an Ghaeilge aige nó aici? Cén fáth nár leagadh síos go gcaithfidh Gaeilge d'ardchaighdeán - is plé eile ar fad é sin go gcaithfimid a chuimsiú lá éigin eile - a bheith ag an té a cheaptar? Cén chaoi a bhféadfadh an duine a bheidh sa bpost sin feidhmiú gan ardchaighdeán Gaeilge a bheith aige nó aici?
Mr. John Howlin
I will start with a couple of comments. In general, recruitment is demand-led. In many instances, the drawdown from different panels depends on Department requirements. There is not necessarily a shared view as to demand for Irish across all posts within the civil or public service. Individuals on the Irish panels would mostly also have applied for the other panels. People can opt to go for the English-language posts as well. There can be instances of that. I appreciate that is not the Deputy's question.
Tá John Howlin ag rá, má tá mise ag iarraidh cur isteach ar phost státseirbhíse agus a bheith in ann post a fháil in aon chuid den státseirbhís ó thaobh cúrsaí teanga de, go gcaithfidh mé cur isteach ar dhá chomórtas.
Mr. John Howlin
Many individuals do enter two competitions.
Má tá mé ag iarraidh a bheith ar fáil do na poist le Gaeilge riachtanach agus do na poist le Béarla riachtanach, is é sin, poist nach bhfuil Gaeilge riachtanach iontu, caithfidh mé cur isteach ar dhá chomórtas. Má chuirim isteach ar an gcomórtas Gaeilge, cáileoidh sé sin mé le haghaidh na poist le Gaeilge riachtanach ach ní bheidh mé cáilithe go huathoibríoch do na poist le Béarla riachtanach. Cén fáth go gcaithfear cur isteach ar dhá chomórtas? Is é an rud atá i gceist agam ná seo: más Béarla amháin atá agam, cuirfidh mé isteach ar phost le Béarla. Níl aon mhaith mé a bheith san áireamh le haghaidh poist ina bhfuil an Ghaeilge riachtanach. Más Gaeilgeoir mé, by definition tá Béarla agam. Cad chuige nach bhfuil mé cáilithe anois don dá phost? Is í sin an cheist.
Ms Margaret McCabe
As I said earlier, we now run separate competitions for people who are interested in working through Irish. Have I understood the Deputy's question correctly? Did he ask whether the person would just have to work through Irish or could they work through Irish and English depending on what they wanted to do? We have separated the competitions completely because people were saying that they would and could work through Irish but, when it came to the interview, they had literally no Irish at all. Ms Mitchell is a translator in our place. She would work through English and Irish.
Nílim ag rá nach ndéantar obair tríd an dá theanga.
Is riachtanas é sin má táthar ag obair i m'oifig, i nGaeilge nó i mBéarla, agus ní fhostóidh mé aon duine nach bhfuil Gaeilge agus Béarla ar an dtoil acu. Is í an Ghaeilge lingua franca na hoifige go hinmheánach s'againne. Ach ó thaobh plé leis an bpobal de, labhraítear Béarla le Béarlóirí agus Gaeilge le Gaeilgeoirí. Is é an rud a bhí ann ná nuair a rith mé an comórtas, theastaigh uaim go mbeadh daoine a bheadh Béarla agus Gaeilge acu. Bhíodar istigh ach d'fhéadfaidís siúd feidhmiú agus dul go dtí oifig eile nach raibh an Ghaeilge riachtanach agus d'fhéadfaidís siúd feidhmiú agus bheadh siad siúd chomh cáilithe le duine ar bith eile. Ní bheadh an duine gan Ghaeilge cáilithe, ámh, chun dul i m'oifig ó phost ar bith eile nach raibh an Ghaeilge riachtanach. Tá Margaret McCabe ag rá le bheith ar an bpainéal Gaeilge, go gcaithfear cur isteach go comórtas amháin agus, tar éis go bhfuil Béarla agam ón tús, le bheith ar an bpainéal Béarla, go gcaithfear cur isteach ar chomórtas eile.
Ms Margaret McCabe
That is not necessarily the case. Some people do that to transfer. If they want to move out of a Department, they might apply for a different job but, no, that is not necessary. The Deputy is correct, also, that one also needs to have a certain level of English. For the Gaeltacht areas and for the Irish, in the case of any post that we have to fill through Irish, Irish has to be the primary language.
Mr. John Howlin
Just to be clear, Deputy, no one will be disadvantaged by being an Irish speaker. They will have more opportunities available to them because, as the Deputy has said, they will be functionally bilingual so they can be put into a post, as the Deputy has described, where they will be operating through Irish and English or, possibly, in an English-language post through another competition. There are more opportunities available.
Cuirfidh mé go simplí é. Chuir mé an cheist seo cheana agus bhí mé ag fáil freagraí agus agus tuiscintí difriúla orthu. Gabh i leith soicind, le bhur dtoil. Maidir leis na poist so-called Gaeilge, arb iad poist Bhéarla agus Ghaeilge nó poist Ghaeilge amháin?
Ms Margaret McCabe
They are just Irish jobs. It is a separate panel for Irish, yes.
And that is just for Gaeilge?
Ms Margaret McCabe
Yes. The Deputy can take confidence from that. The point Mr. Howlin is trying to make is that people apply for multiple posts.
Is é an rud atá ann ná ní thuigim an fáth go gcaithfear cur isteach. Mar shampla, níl mé sa státseirbhís agus tagann sé i mo chloigeann go dtiocfaidh mé isteach sa státseirbhís. Tá post fógartha agus deir sé go gcaithfear Gaeilge a bheith ag an duine. Tá Gaeilge ag an duine seo ach tá Béarla chomh maith céanna acu agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil Gaeilge agus Béarla níos fearr acu ná mar atá ag go leor daoine nach bhfuil ach Béarla acu. Caithfidh an duine seo cur isteach ar an bpost Gaeilge seo agus dul ar ais ansin agus cur isteach ar phainéal ar fad eile don Bhéarla, fiú amháin go bhfuil an dá rud aige nó aici ón tús.
Ms Margaret McCabe
That person can transfer if they want to.
I thank Ms McCabe as she has clarified that point.
Céard faoin Ard-Rúnaí ar an Roinn Gaeltachta?
Is ceist í seo faoin Ard-Rúnaí. Ní raibh an coinníoll Gaeilge ann chun bheith ina hArd-Rúnaí nó ina Ard-Rúnaí ar an Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus na Meán.
Mr. John Howlin
In general, the job spec for any post, particularly the senior post, is agreed with the hiring Department. While it is reviewed by TLAC, it is generally from their own perspective to ensure that it is open. The principal positions competitions are open recruitment and are not just internal and they may have some comments with regard to technical matters related to that. My general point is that it is demand-led and it is the Department which will determine the requirements.
But, tá tusa ag rá gur shocraigh-----
Mr. John Howlin
Senior Civil Service-----
-----státseirbhísigh shinsearacha sa Roinn coinníollacha an phoist. An raibh ionchur ag an Rialtas agus ag an Aire ann?
Mr. John Howlin
The relevant Minister would have a role in assessing the requirements of the post.
Ar cuireadh meamram oifigiúil faoina bráid ag leagan na riachtanais amach?
Mr. John Howlin
That would be an internal matter for the Department and the job spec would then come over.
Mura gcuirfí meamram faoi bhráid an Aire, conas a d'fhéadfadh ionchur an Aire a bheith i gceist?
Mr. John Howlin
The TLAC process is largely based on the point the job spec is received. It is a matter for the hiring Minister and the hiring Department to put in the job spec.
Nach bhfuil dualgas ar an Roinn caiteachais phoiblí a dhéanamh cinnte de go gceaptar daoine a bhfuil cumasach leis an jab a dhéanamh go ginearálta? Nach polasaí mór é go gcaithfidh duine a fhaigheann jab sa státseirbhís - an chuid is airde uilig - a bheith cumasach leis an jab a dhéanamh? Is í an argóint atá agamsa, ó mo thaithí ag breathnú air, ná mura bhfuil tuiscint an-mhaith ag an duine ar an nGaeilge, ní féidir leis nó léi feidhmiú sa rannóg i Roinn na Gaeltachta, cibé ceann de na Ranna ina gcuirtear é nó í.
Mr. John Howlin
Regarding those very senior posts in civil and public service, there is a variety of competencies and skills, experience and expertise in those posts in general which have to be reflected in the job spec. There are competency frameworks which are developed around that identifying those types of skills. They all have to be reflected.
Cinnte, ar ndóigh.
Mr. John Howlin
This is to attract in the greatest number of candidates to get the best candidate for the role. As the Cathaoirleach said, the successful candidates in this instance and previous candidates have had that Irish-language competence, as well.
An mbeifeá ag ceapadh i gcás an príomhoifigigh sláinte, mar shampla, sa Roinn leasa shóisialaigh, go mbeifear ag déanamh cinnte de go raibh cáilíocht dhochtúra ag an duine? Nuair atáthar ag ceapadh príomhfheidhmeannach nó Ard-Rúnaí ar Roinn na Gaeltachta, ní thuigim cén fáth nach bhfuil sé de riachtanas, sa liosta mór millteanach cáilíochtaí ar fad, an Ghaeilge bheith ann, mar a bhíodh fada ó shin. Bhí sé sin ann amhlaidh ó bunaíodh an Stát go dtí le gairid agus frítheadh daoine a bhí thar a bheith cumasach, dála an scéil. Tá John Howlin ag rá gur cheap duine éigin sa chóras go raibh an oiread sin cumhacht aige nó aici, thar an Rialtas, nach raibh Gaeilge riachtanach don té a bheadh ina hArd-Rúnaí nó ina Ard-Rúnaí i Roinn na Gaeltachta.
Mr. John Howlin
What I am saying is there is a range of skills-----
Tuigim the range of skills. Is é sin pointe eile. Ar ndóigh, caithfear na cáilíochtaí ar fad a bheith ag an duine seo. Is féidir liosta mór a thabhairt dom de na réimsí scileanna ach cén fáth nach mbeadh sé riachtanach go mbeadh i measc na réimse scileanna sin cumas oibre trí Ghaeilge?
Mr. John Howlin
The specifics of senior posts in another Department like that would not be something that my Department or TLAC would get involved in. The main role we would have is in the overall competencies and the terms and conditions attached to the post.
Tá sé cinnte, agus tá brón orm anois-----
Gabh mo leithscéal, a Theachta, ach tá coiste eile a thugamar cuireadh dóibh teacht os ár gcomhair inniu agus níor ghlac siad leis an gcuireadh agus tá an coiste seo ag déileáil leis na ceapacháin ardleibhéil.
Tuigim é sin ach tá sé ráite anois anseo go soiléir ag oifigeach ón Roinn caiteachais phoiblí gurb é an Roinn, seachas an tAire nó an Rialtas, a shocraíonn gur gá nó nach gá Gaeilge a bheith ag Ard-Rúnaí Roinn na Gaeltachta agus gur rud inmheánach é mar gur ritheamar an slabhra sin gur thángamar más ea. Is dócha go gcaithfimid anois an Roinn a ghlaoch isteach mar is léir gurb iad siúd a shocraigh é seo. Le breathnú ar cé chomh háiféiseach is atá sé seo, an gceapann ár bhfinnéithe go mbeadh sé réasúnach príomhfheidhmeannach a cheapadh ar TG4, ar Údarás na Gaeltachta nó ar Fhoras na Gaeilge nach raibh Gaeilge acu? Bíonn ardleibhéal scileanna ag teastáil ó na daoine sin ar fad, réimse leathan, agus mar sin de.
Tá an cuireadh fós ann don choiste sin teacht os ár gcomhair. Dhiúltaigh siad teacht.
Cén coiste é sin? An Top-Level Appointments Committee?
An Coiste an Choimisiún um Cheapacháin Ardleibhéil
TLAC, an ea?
Is ea. Dúirt baill an choiste nach dtiocfadh siad os ár gcomhair go dtí go mbeadh an plean náisiúnta curtha le céile mar go bhfuil an coiste atá ag déileáil leis an bplean náisiúnta ag déileáil le ceisteanna earcaíochta. Nílim ach ag tabhairt an freagra a thug siad.
Tuigim é sin ach b'fhéidir gur cheart cuireadh isteach a thabhairt d'ionadaithe ón Roinn turasóireachta le míniú cén fáth gurb iad siúd a leag amach riachtanais-----
Is féidir linn é sin a dhéanamh. Níor ghlac mé leis an míniú mar níl a fhios agam cén uair a bhéas an plean náisiúnta ann ach am éigin roimh dheireadh na bliana nó sa samhradh-----
An dá ghrúpa.
-----ach bhíomar ag déileáil leis an gceist a d'ardaigh na Teachtaí ach go háirithe faoi phríomhfheidhmeannaigh agus faoin Ard-Rúnaí. Déanfaimid cinnte de teacht ar ais chuige sin.
Gabhaim buíochas leis an finnéithe as ucht teacht os ár gcomhair. Tá sé cabhrach dúinne. Bhí troid fhíochmhar againne go léir ó thaobh Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla a thabhairt suas chun dáta agus anois táimid ag díriú isteach ar na spriocanna a bhaint amach. Mar sin, tá sprioc ama agus spriocanna ó thaobh an céatadán earcaíochta.
Tá ceist shimplí agam maidir leis an gcomhdháil atá beartaithe, the public service conference. Cad atá i gceist ansin agus an mbeidh cuid de trí Ghaeilge? An mbíonn aíonna ag labhairt i nGaeilge? Cad atá i gceist ó thaobh na comhdhála sin?
Mr. John Howlin
That is an internal conference for the public service largely around HR managers. I think it is still being discussed with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. The intention is that part of the discussion would be bilingual. At this point, it is largely awareness raising and also for the sharing of best practice across the public service.
Mar sin, rud inmheánach a bhéas i gceist. Ní rud poiblí.
Mr. John Howlin
It is across the public service. I am not organising it but across the different sectors of public service where the target would apply, relevant HR managers will be invited in to raise awareness of the targets and the obligations under the Act but also to discuss best practice and different models that are being used, for example-----
Chun daoine a mhealladh go ginearálta.
Mr. John Howlin
Yes, and different models that are being used.
Chun daoine a mhealladh go ginearálta agus ansin daoine a mhealladh le Gaeilge. An bhfuil dhá aidhm i gceist?
Mr. John Howlin
Part of the discussion on that agenda item would be about attracting Irish speakers into different sectors, how different sectors have gone about it and what they are considering doing, so there would be shared information.
Tuigim. Is rud tábhachtach an comhdháil seo mar tá sibh ag díriú isteach ar na fadhbanna: easpa daoine go ginearálta a bhfuil suim acu sa chóras poiblí agus ansin easpa daoine le Gaeilge agus cumas acu inti. Is comhdháil thar a bheith tábhachtach í. Cuirim fáilte roimh sin ach díreach a chinntiú go mbeidh Gaeilge le cloisteáil go nádúrtha mar chuid den chomhdháil, ní mar rud breise nó rud neamhghnách. An féidir é sin a dheimhniú?
Mr. John Howlin
As I said, I do not know the details of it but I know one of the points being discussed with the Department was how to facilitate that, as the Deputy says.
Ag dul ar ais go Margaret McCabe, níor thuig mé rud amháin. Dúirt sí i mBéarla that there is not a huge amount of areas in which to advertise. An féidir é sin a mhíniú dom?
Ms Margaret McCabe
I understand that they are increasing the number of areas where you can advertise through Irish. We have a plan in place to look at this. I spoke earlier about the recruitment plan our marketing group is putting in place for particular posts regarding where we need to advertise or go for. Therefore, we have been working through that. We have a plan for 2024 to increase the number of areas where we are advertising in Irish but there is not a huge number of areas that we have identified yet anyway but we are looking at that.
Tá míthuiscint ar mo thaobhsa. Ní thuigim. An rud ba dhearfaí a d'eascair as an reachtaíocht nua ná go bhfuil dualgas ar gach Roinn agus ar eintitis éagsúla fógraí a chur amach i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla agus tá an-dul chun cinn déanta. Cloisim i bhfad níos mó Gaeilge ar RTÉ anois, mar shampla, agus is rud dearfach é sin. Nach rud dearfach agus rud maith é sin ó thaobh advertising?
Ms Margaret McCabe
It is.
Cá bhfuil an fhadhb?
Ms Margaret McCabe
It is more for advertising posts - jobs and that - I suppose. There is a really positive awareness of Irish at the moment and there are a lot of areas in which you see it. As the Deputy says, you can see it now on RTÉ a lot more than before. We are encouraging it very much even within our own organisation and we have our coiste Gaeilge. We are doing it but it is going to take a bit a time for this all to bed in.
Is é sin an t-aon rud nach bhfuil againn mar tá géarchéim ann ó thaobh na Gaeilge agus is é sin an fáth go raibh sé práinneach an reachtaíocht a thabhairt suas chun dáta.
Ms Margaret McCabe
I get that. Tuigim é sin.
Ag dul ar ais arís go dtí an pointe a rinne an Teachta Éamon Ó Cuív mar tháinig sé seo suas an uair dheireanach freisin, faraor, tá sé fós doiléir domsa, cén fáth go bhfuil comórtas faoi leith ó thaobh na Gaeilge de. Ní thuigim.
Ms Margaret McCabe
Why we separated it out?
Sea, sin é.
Ms Margaret McCabe
This was because of the issues we were having. We might think we had 400 applications from people who were interested in working through Irish but actually when we went back out to them, asked them what their level was, even just very simple stuff, we discovered we might be lucky if we had 20. Therefore, we separated them out so at least now people understand they are applying for a job for which they need a level of Irish to work through and that is the reason why.
Nuair a ghlacann na daoine sin páirt san agallamh i nGaeilge, an rud a thuig mé ó na ceisteanna agus na freagraí ná go mbeadh siadsan á stiúradh i dtreo na Gaeilge seachas poist eile le Béarla agus Gaeilge.
Ms Margaret McCabe
It depends on what the demand from the Department is. We do not know. We would get a request to fill posts with people who are fluent in Irish but we do not know where they end up or if they end of in a purely Irish post or a bilingual post. PAS would not know that. We would not have that information.
Le déanaí, bhí próiseas i gceist d’agallamh do phríomhfheidhmeannach nua do chathair na Gaillimhe. Chuir sé déistin orm nach raibh gá le Gaeilge don phost sin, post an phríomhfheidhmeannaigh ar chathair dhátheangach ar thairseach na Gaeltachta is mó sa tír. Ar tháinig an post sin trí chóras PAS? Níl mé ag iarraidh locht a fháil ach tá mé ag iarraidh a fháil amach cén chaoi gur féidir linn an rud a athrú. Cén chaoi ar tharla sé go mbeadh post chomh tábhachtach sin i gcathair dhátheangach agus gan aon riachtanas ó thaobh na Gaeilge de?
Ms Margaret McCabe
As I was saying earlier, it is the Department of housing that lays out the qualifications and job specifications for those particular roles such as a chief executives of local government. We just implement what it gives us. We do not have a say as such within the process. I cannot really answer that.
Gabhaim buíochas le Margaret. Freagra díreach é sin. Scríobh mé chuig an Aire ach tá mé ag iarraidh a fháil amach cá bhfuil an fhadhb. Ní bhaineann sé leis an Seirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí.
Ms Margaret McCabe
No.
Mr. John Howlin
No. The Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is responsible for the Civil Service so in this instance the responsibility would be with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage.
Agus mé i mo shuí anseo mar Theachta Dála, tá sé thar a bheith deacair a chreidiúint go mbeadh post faoi leith i gcathair dhátheangach agus gan aon riachtanas ó thaobh na Gaeilge de ag baint leis, agus tá sé sin ag tarlú fud fad na tíre. Fadhb amháin é sin. Críochnóidh mé anois ach laistigh den eagraíocht, cén dul chun cinn atá déanta ag PAS ó thaobh na Gaeilge de? Luaigh Margaret McCabe coiste Gaeilge agus cúrsaí faoi leith. Ó thaobh na foirne féin, cén dul chun cinn atá déanta?
Ms Margaret McCabe
Cén fhoireann?
An dá fhoireann; foirne John agus Margaret. Cén dul chun cinn atá déanta ó thaobh cumas na Gaeilge a mhéadú i measc na ball foirne?
DELETE
Ms Amy Mitchell
Is féidir liomsa é sin a fhreagairt.
Aon duine agaibh, is cuma liom.
Ms Amy Mitchell
Tá mise ag obair sa Seirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí mar aistritheoir ach tá foireann Ghaeilge forbartha againn le bliain anuas. Tá foireann na Gaeilge ann anois.
Is rud nua é sin, an ea?
Ms Amy Mitchell
Is rud nua é.
Iontach.
Ms Amy Mitchell
Tá sé beag go leor go fóill ach táimid ag iarraidh é a fhorbairt amach anseo chomh maith.
Cé mhéid duine atá ar an bhfoireann sin?
Ms Amy Mitchell
Mé féin agus beirt oifigeach feidhmiúcháin. Mar a luaigh Margaret McCabe níos luaithe, tá grúpa Gaeilge inmheánach againn - bainisteoirí sinsearacha do chuid is mó - a thagann le chéile go tréimhsiúil chun polasaí Gaeilge agus imeachtaí Gaeilge agus mar sin de a phlé le chéile agus a eagrú. Maidir leis an gcineál oibre atá ar siúl againn, táimid ag obair le TEG faoi láthair chun uirlis a fhorbairt a chabhróidh leis na heagraíochtaí cliaint leibhéil cuí Gaeilge a roghnú do phoist éagsúla. Beidh siad in ann úsáid a bhaint as an uirlis chun an leibhéil cuí a aithint do phoist éagsúla. Ansin, beidh sé níos éasca orainne measúnú a dhéanamh ar iarrthóirí nuair atá tuiscint againn ar an leibhéil atá ag teastáil. Is é sin an cineál oibre atá ar siúl againn. Go neamhfhoirmiúil, cuirimid seisiúin comhrá ar siúl san eagraíocht go hinmheánach, mar shampla bhí seisiún ar siúl roimh na Nollag a bhí dírithe ar scileanna gutháin agus mar sin de toisc go mbíonn baill foirne na heagraíochta ag plé leis an bpobal ar an nguthán go minic. Táimid ag obair anois leis an aonad foghlamtha agus forbartha, learning and development unit, chun imeachtaí a eagrú do Sheachtain na Gaeilge.
Cad mar gheall ar chúrsaí?
Ms Amy Mitchell
Tá cúrsaí ar fáil ar OneLearning san eagraíocht chomh maith. Tá an beirt oifigeach feidhmiúchán ar m'fhoireann féin ag tabhairt faoi chúrsaí faoi láthair. Go bhfios dom, déanann idir ceathrar agus seachtar cúrsaí gach bliain. Táimid ag iarraidh an uimhir sin a mhéadú. Tá cúrsaí ar siúl trí Ghaelchultúr atá bunaithe ar chóras TEG.
An bhfuil aon poist sainainmnithe in aon Roinn ó thaobh na Gaeilge de nó an bhfuil aon ról ag John Howlin maidir le poist ina bhfuil gá Gaeilge a bheith ag an duine?
Mr. John Howlin
I am not aware of any off the top of my head. That is not to say there is not one, I am just not aware of it as I would not necessarily see every competition booklet in detail. I am not aware of any.
Ms Margaret McCabe
Are these posts where Irish is mandatory, is it?
Ms Margaret McCabe
We are advertising a post in about a week's time. It is an assistant secretary level post that is going in the papers on 2 February. It is one of those top level appointment posts and is purely through Irish.
Cé chomh minic a thagann na poist sin, atá sainainmnithe ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, suas? Cén céatadán de na poist atá i gceist? An bhfuil aon soiléiriú ina dtaobh?
Ms Margaret McCabe
I do not have the percentage but there would be a certain number. All the aistritheoirí would have come through that and Coimisiún na Meán.
Is ról faoi leith é ról an aistritheora agus tá a fhios agam go n-oibríonn siad go dian. Tá mé ag smaoineamh ar an bpictiúr uilig agus ní féidir an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn gan cumas a bheith ag daoine go nádúrtha agus ansin go mbeadh poist faoi leith ar a laghad sainainmnithe go mbeadh an duine dhátheangach.
Mr. John Howlin
As the Deputy says, that is a key gap in our knowledge at the moment and it is one at which the advisory committee is looking, supported by the University of Galway, to identify those types of posts where there should be an Irish-language competency. That baselining work would be very important to understand the level people have, the posts they are in, and then the posts where there should be a competency element.
To pick up on some of the points about what is going on, I have mentioned some of the OneLearning courses and there is a range of courses now that are linked to the TEG framework and the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages. There were 500 people on those courses last year and over 500 the year before as well so there is a lot of interest. Members might be aware that the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and the Media is also now funding a public service Irish speakers network. That will be key to have the kind of interaction that was mentioned so that when someone does a course, they can continue to interact in a structured but informal way on an ongoing basis. It may not necessarily be a key part of their job but it is supports the development of the language as well. Therefore, there are a number of different initiatives that are trying to slot together. One of the key benefits of having the advisory committee from across Departments and sectors is that we own different bits of the system and we are trying to slot them together in a meaningful way that supports Irish-language speakers from recruitment and attracting them in through the development in the system as well. It is important work. We have been talking a lot about the plan but the fact that the committee will keep working after the plan is equally important.
Is dócha go mbeidh gach rud ag braith ar an bplean sin nuair a bheidh sé againn i gceann sé mhí.
Ms Margaret McCabe
The Gaelchultúr courses are very popular.
Níl aon amhras faoi sin ach tá gá le duine chun iad a stiúradh. Tá an-éileamh ar an cúrsaí buíochas le Dia.
Ní fheicim aon chomhalta eile atá ag iarraidh ceist a chur. Mar sin, dá réir, is féidir liom críoch a chur leis an cuid seo dár gcruinniú. Ba mhaith liom ár mbuíochas a ghabháil leis na finnéithe, le John Howlin agus Margaret McCabe ach go háirithe, agus chomh maith le sin le Ruth Cullen agus Amy Mitchell, as ucht bheith anseo agus a dtuairimí a roinnt linn. Táimid buíoch dóibh agus cuideoidh sé lenár gcur chuige. É sin ar fad ráite, ba chóir dúinn mar choiste scríobh arís chuig an gCoiste an Choimisiún um Cheapacháin Ardleibhéil ag iarraidh ar na baill freastal ar an gcruinniú chun na ceisteanna nach rabhthas in ann a fhreagairt a fhreagairt, fiú agus an plean náisiúnta á ullmhú acu. Táimid ag díriú isteach ar cad atá ag tarlú faoi láthair agus roimhe seo agus b'fhéidir cad a tharlóidh amach anseo. Déanfaimid déileáil leis an bplean náisiúnta nuair atá sé foilsithe. Má foilsítear é i mí an Mheithimh, b'fhéidir gur tar éis an tsamhraidh a bhéas i gceist ag an staid sin ach ba mhaith linn díriú isteach ar na ceisteanna seo anois mar go bhfuil postanna á líonadh faoi láthair agus go bhfuil ceist mhór ann maidir le na coinníollacha Gaeilge a d'ardaigh na Teachtaí Connolly agus Ó Cuív, nó a leithéid de cheist. Níl muid ag caitheamh anuas nó ag déanamh ceistiú orthu siúd a roghnaíodh sna postanna seo. Is ceist ghinearálta í: cén fáth go bhfuil an cuma ar chúrsaí, de réir an choiste, go bhfuil neamhaird nó nach bhfuil tús áite á thabhairt don Ghaeilge i gceapachán ar leith ina mbeadh sé riachtanach go mbeadh Gaeilge ag duine má tá siad chun cuidiú le cur chun cinn na Gaeilges na Ranna nó sna ceantair a luadh?
Leis sin, cuirim clabhsúr leis an díospóireacht don lá inniu. Tá sé i gceist againn díriú ar sheisiún príobháideach anois. Mar sin, cuirfidh mé an cruinniú ar fionraí ar feadh cúpla nóiméad sular leanfaimid ar aghaidh leis an gcuid eile de choiste an lae inniu.