COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 24 May 2001

Vol. 3 No. 12

Athlone Institute of Technology: Annual Accounts, 1994-99.

Professor C. Ó Catháin(Director, Athlone Institute of Techology) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome the representatives of Athlone Institute of Technology to discuss the audited financial statements for the years 1994 to 1999, which does not mean that the institute has been behind in producing information. I do not think its representatives have appeared before committee before.

I must make you aware of some procedural points. You do not enjoy absolute privilege. Witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to the persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now ask Professor Ciarán Ó Catháin to introduce his officials.

Professor Ó Catháin

I am accompanied by Ms Betty Buckley, finance officer; Dr. Pat Mulhern, head of development, and Mr. John McKenna, secretary-financial controller.

Mr. Purcell

The committee may wish to focus on the supplement to my audit report on the accounts for the year ending 31 August 1999, in which I draw attention to past weaknesses in the internal management and control framework in the institute, which were first signalled by the then financial controller in July 1997, prior to her departure on a career break. Later that year they found their way into the public domain. Specific concerns expressed included the custody and use of a piece of farming equipment, control over the receipt of sponsorship moneys and management of the use of the institute's facilities. Once the concerns came to the attention of the Department of Education and Science it moved quickly and sent its internal audit unit to examine the position. It confirmed that there were problems, as a result of which the institute embarked on an in-depth examination of its procedures and internal controls. Since then there has been a continuous process of revising procedures and improving controls. I have been assured by my staff, who recently completed the audit fieldwork on the accounts for the year ending 31 August 2000, that there is now a sound internal control framework in operation in the institute.

Chairman

Thank you. I would like to say to Professor Ó Catháin that we received a summary late last evening. As it has been circulated to members, there is no need to go through it. I would like to hear your comments on what the Comptroller and Auditor General has just said and the points raised before I hand over to members.

Professor Ó Catháin

As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, there was an in-depth review of the internal procedures within the institute, which we continue to monitor and update. At this stage the report on the internal audit carried out by the Department of Education and Science is with the institute. We have responded to the Department and there is continuing correspondence regarding the procedures. The institute is in the process of compiling a final reply to the Department on the report.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I am glad to hear the internal monitoring has improved given that I come from an institute of technology. May I stray into the accounts and ask about the cost per student and the management of courses? What is the situation in regard to the famous report of 1995, the study of non-completion in institutes of technology? I would like to think the auditing and the monitoring is ongoing for students commencing courses and completing courses. The committee will recall that 11,175 students commenced courses in 1995, half of whom completed those courses. There was a particular problem within Athlone Institute of Technology in terms of the number of students who commenced courses and graduated at the end of the day. Has the position improved? Has there been any significant change in the figures to date? I take it we are continuing to monitor them because for years they were not tabulated. Can Professor Ó Catháin say how many students commenced courses in Athlone Institute of Technology in recent years, what was the completion rate and the drop-out rate and will he give his observations on these matters?

Professor Ó Catháin

In the year 1997-98 the full time student enrolment register at 31 October of that year stood at 2,806. The number who sat their summer examinations was 2,647, approximately 94%, giving a drop-out rate that year of 6%. The pass rate was 84% and the failure rate 16%. When the two are put together 1997 and 1998 would equate to about 22%. The number who registered for 1998-99 was 2,832. Of some 2,729 students, 96%, sat their examinations and the failure rate was approximately 16%. In 1998-99 the failure rate has come down to about 20%. We are still monitoring this year. In 1999-2000 the number registered on 31 October was 3,084, 97% of whom sat their examinations, giving a drop-out rate of 3%. The failure rate that year increased to 19% which gives us about 22%. This year, to date, we have been concentrating on the first year students within the institute because that is where the problem lies. This year the number of first years enrolled was 1,266, the number who dropped out was about 157, about 12.4%. The reasons for the drop out are varied: a number of them have taken up employment, some have found the course unsuitable, some have moved on to apprenticeship programmes, eight were for medical reasons, some were for financial reasons and some were for personal and family reasons. The student services manager within the institute is working closely with the welfare team and is monitoring specifically the drop-out rate. We have also taken a number of other steps particularly with the large groups in the institute where we have split them into smaller cohorts particularly in the subject areas where students were having difficulty. We have introduced a tutorial system and that has been beneficial. Beginning with students coming in we have an intensive induction programme and after six weeks we go in to meet particularly the first year students to see what are the issues and the problems and work with them. That has been very successful, particularly last year, in identifying and helping students who may be at risk and students who, for one reason or another, want to go elsewhere or where the course was not for them.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Obviously there has been a significant improvement in the drop-out rate. Does Professor Ó Catháin believe the induction course and the monitoring is making an impact? In terms of technology courses is the points system still a problem in regard to student intake? Is it the case that one is trying to fit square pegs into round holes?

Professor Ó Catháin

One of the reasons we have been particularly successful in the past couple of years is that we have been monitoring much more closely and we have been able to put in a tutorial system. The tutorial system as well as the induction programme has benefited us significantly. There is also the issue where one can get students, particularly qualified applicants, who have a low aptitude and may not necessarily be suitable. This year we took in about 27 students who would have come in at AQA and monitored them very closely and we are giving them additional support. A significant number of them are still with us and I hope they will pull through into second year. It is a matter of monitoring and, in some cases, it is a hand-holding exercise with some of those students.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Is this system being implemented right across the institutes of technology?

Professor Ó Catháin

Certainly it is being implemented in Athlone Institute of Technology and there is a move towards it in the other ITs. The report highlighted the issues there and the Government has made moneys available particularly for access officers and in supporting the whole student services within the institutes.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

What is the student intake in an institute such as Athlone Institute of Technology? We generally find there is a drop of 3% to 4% per year in 18 year olds. It has been suggested that there were 74,000 18 year olds in 2000 but that the number will drop to 47,000 in 2010. That will have a dramatic impact on an institute such as Athlone Institute of Technology. How does one fill the gap? Of necessity, the larger institutes in larger urban centres will continue to attract students. The peripheral institutes such as Athlone, Dundalk, Carlow, Tralee are badly hit in terms of the intake of student numbers, the points are dropping to a low level. How do you see the future?

Professor Ó Catháin

We are doing research with students to find out the reasons they are choosing Athlone and it has been beneficial to us. While there has been a 10% drop in the numbers applying to institutes, in Athlone the first preference drop is only about 4.4%. We are pleased at that because there is only one institute below the figure. We are tending to hold our own in that regard. This year we have a marketing officer and we spend a great deal of time going around in our catchment area and working closely with the schools which traditionally have sent students to Athlone and we will continue to do that. Also we have developed a strong adult and continuing education side to the institute. We will continue to work with that in the coming years. On one side where there may be a shortfall, that shortfall may give the institutes time to pull back and concentrate on the quality agenda, quality issues and on the area of retention. On the other side it gives us the opportunity for adult and continuing education and upskilling and reskilling for the industrial sector surrounding our institute and others in the country.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

In terms of the college itself, the view is that the cost per student in ITs is around £3,500. My understanding is that it is nearly equating with the cost per student through the universities. Are institutes becoming top heavy with management, middle management and administrative staff?

Professor Ó Catháin

I do not believe they are. Greater efficiencies could be got out of the sector and those efficiencies are coming. Certainly we are moving towards a much more unit based cost approach to managing the institutes of technology. We are becoming more professional particularly in the accounting side where we have a secretary or financial controller of finance officer and a number of other accountants in that area. We are now in a position to maximise the utilisation of the institute and its resource base. At this point we are negotiating for additional administrative staff which would put firm structures in place in the institutes as a result of a report in 1998 to look at the administrative structures within the institute. This year we will look at some of those posts but it has got to be considered not alone in terms of the cost, but the service we are providing to the students. The students coming in today have many more problems, particularly social problems and other issues that have to be addressed, and we need the staff in the institutes if one is to do that successfully.

Chairman

Before we leave that point, I see that the cost per student, including depreciation, in 1999 was about £4,131. What would you consider would be the cost per student now?

Professor Ó Catháin

That is a rough cost, taking our budget and dividing it by our student numbers. That is the figure on which we have based it.

Chairman

Would it be up to £5,000 now?

Professor Ó Catháin

No, I do not believe it would be. It would probably be around £4,300 at this stage.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Would it be affected by the fact that some of them opt out fairly early on?

Professor Ó Catháin

I would not get into that. That is a matter of conjecture. One could consider that but it would put the cost significantly higher. Some of the students coming in may drop out for a year and may come back into the system or they may switch to a different course, so they are being picked up somewhere within the system. I do not believe we are just looking at the graduates because we do much more in institutes than just putting students through at the end of it. If a student stays for two years, he may not have a certificate but he would have gained invaluable skills that may allow him to be employed. We have to take cognisance of the social characteristics as well. They will also have the credits for those individuals.

Deputy Bell

This is the first time the Athlone institute has been before us. Looking at the accounts it would appear that from 1994, a reasonable attempt was made to put right the deficiencies that were recognised in the early years. That is shown effectively in the returns up to 1999. That is the best one we have had so far, from what I can see. Does the director intend to do what we would like him to do, namely, ensure that the accounts for each year would be made available as soon as possible in the new year so that we would receive an up to date report on a yearly basis early in the year? We would then be able to examine money spent in the previous year rather than going back to 1994. There is an historical reason for that, which we understand, and the institute seems to have made a reasonable attempt to overcome that. That would be appreciated by the committee.

Professor Ó Catháin

On that question, we have submitted the 1999 figures. The Comptroller and Auditor General has done his field work and we are awaiting his report. We are right up to date with our accounts and I hope that will be the way of the future.

Chairman

Before we leave the accounts, in the supplement the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to various aspects which caused concern, and I understand there was an internal investigation. As you probably know, that has been in the media recently - I have here a cutting from 27 April 2001 - vis-à-vis Athlone and this investigation. Is an investigation going on since early 1998 or is it an internal audit? Whatever is going on, when will we see it finalised?

Professor Ó Catháin

A report was prepared on the internal audit and internal procedures by the Department of Education and Science. There was also an investigation done on the issues. The institute is not privy to the investigation; that is with the Department of Education and Science. We have got the copies of the terms of the audit and procedures and that is the one on which we have been working. I am quite satisfied that the procedures we have in place will stand up to scrutiny.

Chairman

So, as far as you are concerned, the points referred to in the supplement by the Comptroller and Auditor General have been investigated thoroughly and the matter has been finalised?

Professor Ó Catháin

From a procedural perspective, we have completed our procedures. I believe the Comptroller and Auditor General has done two audits since then and he has concurred that what is in place is reasonable. We are still in correspondence with the Department of Education and Science on the final audit and correspondence will go back to the Department in the next few weeks to finalise some of their recent queries.

Chairman

I am referring specifically to the points made in the supplement and the issues which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to at the time, about which I understand certain things happened in the college subsequently. It states here that the report is long overdue and must be reaching epic proportions given that the investigation commenced in early 1998. Is a report likely to be finalised? Is the information that is in the public media inaccurate?

Professor Ó Catháin

I believe what is there is accurate but the college would not be in a position to answer that question. That would be a question for the Department of Education and Science because it undertook that investigation and it is very much with the Department.

Chairman

So, whatever has been finalised is with the Department of Education and Science at this stage?

Professor Ó Catháin

Absolutely.

Chairman

We could put that question to the Department of Education and Science because, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said in the supplement, as far as our committee is concerned, we just want to see the issue finalised. I compliment you on having your accounts up to date. We have concluded our deliberations.

Professor Ó Catháin

Thank you, Chairman.

Chairman

Before you leave, Professor Ó Catháin, as Mr. McDonagh is here from the Department of Education and Science, perhaps he would like to comment on what is in the public domain in regard to this issue.

Mr. McDonagh

As you are already aware, Chairman, certain issues came to the attention of the Department and we moved quickly. We corresponded with the college authorities and, following that initial correspondence, we deemed it appropriate to send our internal audit unit into the college to carry out certain investigations. Arising from those investigations, the Comptroller and Auditor General has given a succinct report about the issues that came up in that investigation. While we did not have conclusive evidence on the issues, consideration would have been given to the possibility of an inquiry into those issues. At or about that time, the then director retired from his position and it was not deemed appropriate or necessary to continue without further inquiry. The Department's focus at that stage was on seeing that robust systems were in place in the college and, as a result of that, the college, at the behest of the Department, set about putting procedures and processes in place that would satisfy best standards. That has been an ongoing process. The Department has been engaged in correspondence. As the director said, we are awaiting some further detailed information from the college on where we stand currently in relation to those processes and when we have that letter of sign off from the college, it is our intention that our internal audit unit will visit the college again to sign off that those processes meet best standards from our point of view.

Chairman

So, the issues referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his supplement have been addressed by the college and the Department of Education and Science?

Mr. McDonagh

As far as we are concerned.

Chairman

As a result of it you would have put extra procedures in place within the college to ensure this situation does not arise in the future?

Mr. McDonagh

The college is working on that and it is our hope and expectation that by the time we receive their reply and our internal audit unit visits the college again, we will be in a position to sign off on the fact that the procedures and processes are to best standards.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. McDonagh.