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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Tuesday, 13 Nov 2001

Vol. 3 No. 24

Environmental Protection Agency: Financial Statements 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000.

Mr. L. McCumiskey(Director General, Environmental Protection Agency) called and examined.

I apologise for the delay, but the session with the Department of the Environment and Local Government ran a little longer than was anticipated. We are dealing with the financial statements of the Environmental Protection Agency for the years 1995 to 2000, inclusive. I do not want anyone to think that the agency did not submit financial statements, as they were sent in on time. We have to deal with financial statements for six years because the Committee of Public Accounts has not been able to discuss the agency for quite some time.

Witnesses do not enjoy absolute privilege. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privilege and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents, and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee.

Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice. Notwithstanding this legislative provision, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also draw attention to the provisions of Standing Order 149, which states the Committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such a policy or policies.

I ask Mr. McCumiskey to introduce his officials.

Mr. McCumiskey

I am accompanied by Mr. Declan Burns, Mr. Dan Harney, Dr. PadraicLarkin and Dr. Paul Toner.

I ask representatives of Teagasc to identify themselves.

Dr. Carton

My name is Dr. Owen Carton and I am accompanied by Dr. David McGrath. We are based in Johnstown Castle.

I ask representatives of the Mid-Western Health Board to identify themselves.

Mr. de Burca

My name is Stiophán de Burca, chief executive officer. I am accompanied by Dr. Kevin Kelleher, director of public health, and Mr. Paddy McDonald, director of finance.

I ask representatives of the Department of Agriculture, Food And Rural Development to identify themselves.

My name is Seamus Healy, assistant secretary, animal health and welfare issues, and I am joined by Mr. P. J. O'Connor, deputy director, central veterinary research laboratory.

I ask Mr. Glavey of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the accounts.

Mr. Glavey

The accounts of the Environmental Protection Agency for the years 1995 to 2000 are before the committee today. In each of those years the Comptroller and Auditor General has given a clear audit report, which is not to say that issues have not arisen. Such issues were resolved satisfactorily by management letter. As the committee is aware, during the period under review, the agency had the co-ordinating role in the investigations into animal health problems at Askeaton. A five volume report in respect of the investigation was published in August 2001. One of the general comments made by investigating agents in their summary was that "had a protocol for the investigation of serious incidents been in existence at the time the health problems first came to attention, the investigations would not have been necessary. Certainly, they would not have been so detailed or as lengthy."

I wish to break down the estimated cost of the investigation, which ran to over £4 million in total. I understand that slightly over £2 million was paid by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, £1.2 million by the Mid-Western Health Board, approximately £500,000 by Teagasc and about £400,000 by the Environmental Protection Agency. The Comptroller and Auditor General believes that this shows the necessity of a protocol of the kind referred to.

The normal procedure is that the committee receives a report on the accounts in advance. In this case, Mr. McCumiskey, will you, please, give us the background to the investigation and describe to us the involvement of your agency?

Mr. McCumiskey

Our involvement in the Askeaton animal health investigation began in February 1995 when, at the request of the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, we were asked to co-ordinate a major investigation into the causes of severe animal health problems which had come to public notice in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The health problems occurred on two farms in particular, the Somers farm and the Ryan farm in Askeaton, County Limerick. There were also some problems on a number of other farms in the area.

Following the meeting with the Minister of State it was decided that four bodies would be involved and that the four main areas to be investigated were animal health, the soil and herbage on farms, human health and the environment. The four bodies involved in the investigation co-ordinated by the EPA were the agency itself, the Mid-Western Health Board, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development and its veterinary service and Teagasc. The investigation proper commenced in March 1995 and was substantially completed by the end of 1998. In addition to these four organisations, specialist experts, particularly in the area of veterinary toxicology, were brought in from the United States of America's Environmental Protection Agency in Denver, Colorado. Experts were also brought in from the United Kingdom and Norway to give us the benefit of their advice.

The main issue was that some environmental problems were causing the acute animal health problems in Askeaton and there was a fear that they might cause health problems for people. The agency published three interim reports which were fairly comprehensive. One was published as early as December 1995, about eight months after the investigation started, another in June 1997 and the third in August 1998. The final report, as the Chairman outlined, was published in August 2001. That is the background. There is provision in our governing legislation enabling us to carry out investigations if requested to do so by a Minister of the State if we have the competence to do so.

If the investigation was concluded at the end of 1998, why did it take over two and a half years before the presentation took place in Askeaton in August 2001, during a quiet time in the summer recess? The Dáil was not in session and many journalists may have been on holiday at the time.

Mr. McCumiskey

I said the investigation was "substantially completed." The interim reports were available which contained the bulk of the material, but the human health aspects of the investigation had to be extended. That was the main cause of the extra time taken. In addition, much other basic information and data were gathered and work was done that was not published in the interim reports. That is the reason we ended up having a five volume report which is available for peer review within the country or externally. Everything we have done is fully and properly recorded.

I recognise that our objective today, as the Committee of Public Accounts, relates to concerns expressed at the overall cost of the investigation which exceeded £4 million. That concern was expressed at a public meeting in Askeaton which your officials attended. As it took place in the area that I represent, naturally many demanded of me how the cost could be so great. The objective of the committee in calling in all the main players today is to quantify that cost and satisfy ourselves with the level of funding. The EPA's expenditure is £390,000 much of which was spent on salaries. Specialist toxicologists and other experts were brought in. Is there a breakdown available of that figure of £390,000 and, if so, can it be given to the committee in order that we know the expenditure on outside consultants?

Mr. McCumiskey

I can give such a breakdown. The EPA's own staff costs amounted to £297,000. Travel and subsistence costs of staff involved in the investigation over the three years amounted to £23,000. The consultants from the United States were provided by their Government at no charge, except for their expenses. The total cost on all consultants was £59,000. The cost of printing reports came to £11,000. That brings the total cost to the EPA over the period to £390,000.

Did the external consultants, apart from those from the United States of America who did not charge you, come from the United Kingdom?

Mr. McCumiskey

We had one from the United Kingdom and one from Norway to oversee certain investigations in relation to possible air pollution. In other words, it was a peer review of our interpretation of all the data measured over a period of years.

I am satisfied with regard to the amount you mentioned, but we hope you will tell us how much each consultant cost, for example, that consultant toxicologist Mr. X cost £30,000 and another £20,000. If you wish, you can give us a staff breakdown.

The main objective in reassuring people is to account for the ultimate cost. I know that the EPA is one component of it and that there are other associated costs involved. What we want to do with each of the bodies involved is to get a breakdown analysis. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development gave us two global figures equating to over £2 million and I will be telling it the same thing. The objective of this session is to determine the component parts of that figure. Until such time as I believe the Committee of Public Accounts knows how these sums were arrived at, its members and those outside who have been waiting a long time for the publication of the report will not be happy with the level of accountability and transparency. Our objective is to find out how the sum of £4.5 million was spent. The committee is a public watchdog as regards spending.

Mr. McCumiskey

There is no problem with giving you the figures. I can give them to you straightaway.

We will get someone from our secretariat to copy your document. That will simplify matters. Thank you very much.

Mr. de Burca of the Mid-Western Health Board was referred to. When I questioned the two and a half year delay I was told that you had a certain amount of information. While you have given us a statement on your internal investigations, could you provide the committee with a brief overview? In your report you gave us a breakdown analysis of your costs which appeared quite satisfactory. Could you give us a brief overview of the health board's involvement and its costs?

Mr. de Burca

I appreciate the opportunity to make this presentation today. We have provided an overview and summary of our expenditure between 1995 and 2000 on health investment in this investigation.

Chairman, let me explain the difference between the figure of £767,000 indicated and the figure of £1.2 million to which you referred. The additional cost is made up of the indirect charges associated with the director of public health and his staff, in other words, staff who are normally employed by the board. It is, in effect, a charging out of time relative to costs which would not have been associated with this activity in the past.

The South-Eastern Health Board became involved in this investigation in the summer of 1995 because of concerns expressed regarding human health arising from the evidence being put forward to support concerns about animal health. It is important to note that the director of public health of the board and his staff were involved in this in concert with the department of public health medicine in University College Dublin and received support in their inquiries from external experts. The committee will have gathered from the EPA report that these included Professor Tim Aldrich from the United States, Dr. Nichol Black from Newcastle in the UK and Dr. Patrick Wall, the chief executive of the Food Safety Authority.

Several studies have been undertaken to assess whether there were indications of human health impact from industrial pollutants in the area. Over the period in question, the director of public health employed up to 17 people who were involved in a variety of activities, including consultancy work, but also the various surveys. The reports of each of the studies set out very clearly that there was no abnormality indicated in the human health of the population studied.

The study was taken in the area for investigation as well as control areas around the estuary. All the evidence has been reviewed by peer audit, that is, external experts, who examined the process used to ensure the investigation was of the highest standards. The report indicates that the process engaged in was quite extensive and comprehensive and might even have been too comprehensive in some of its aspects. Dr. Kelleher has already clarified this for the committee.

Chairman, if it is important for the record to go through each study, I would be happy to oblige. The earliest study was undertaken by the director of community care at the time, Dr. Mary O'Mahony. It was a review carried out with general practitioners in the area. It indicated that there was no cluster of adverse health effects attributable to an environmental hazard.

The key studies in the literature point out that atmospheric pollutants per se do not cause disease, but can exacerbate pre-existing conditions such as chronic bronchitis, emphysema and asthma. Again, there were no external causal factors which could be attributed to this literature statement around the growth in what we will describe as respiratory disorders. It would appear they are more internal atmospheric effects rather than external effects.

The significant areas of study included births and congenital abnormalities. In that regard, no cluster of specific abnormalities was ever reported. With regard to sex ratio, which would have shown some change in the indicators of abnormality, the ratio of male to female births is slightly higher in the Askeaton area, which is a positive indicator. Had the finding been the reverse, it would have been an indicator of some peculiarity. There was also a slightly lower incidence of twin births in Askeaton than in County Limerick and Ireland as a whole. Again, the reverse would have been a predictor of possible environmental pollution.

We also had a survey of general practitioners' perceptions of health problems in their area, to which 34 GPs responded. The questionnaire results showed that GPs in the study had more health concerns about their patients than elsewhere. This was explained by the way in which patient anxieties were being conveyed to them. The result may also have been indicative of the GPs' own concerns about their proximity to the major industry. These are subjective self reports.

The key finding of the health status survey, which is one of the critical baseline or population-wide statements of evidence, is important. For pregnancy outcomes, including miscarriages, there is no significant statistical difference between Askeaton and Rathkeale and the four comparison areas which were Ennistymon,Kildysart, Moyne Littleton and Clarecastle.

A diary study was also undertaken, a longitudinal study involving 26 families over a 13 month period. Again, the key findings in this tell us that, of 80 farm households taking part in this diary study, 13 households had good health, three had moderate health and two had excessive mild ill health. The inference from this is that nothing abnormal was indicated by the reports of the study population. We are informed that five of 76 individuals suffered frequent bouts of low level ill health throughout the study. However, in the majority of cases they did not require the intervention of a GP or other professional.

It is important to emphasise the significance of the study on cancer incidence in the human health investigation. During the early part of the study the cancer registry was not available to the investigating team. It first became available in late 1997. The key result was that there was no evidence that cancer was more common in the putative exposed area compared to the control areas and Ireland as a whole. In fact, there are contrary indications. The study demonstrates that men normally have approximately 15% less chance of developing cancer than other residents in the Mid-Western Health Board area and 30% less risk than men in the Irish population as a whole. In other words, it is a relatively healthy area from the point of view of the incidence and prevalence of cancer.

For women the risk is about one third less than the average of the health board population and approximately three quarters less than that of women in Ireland as a whole. Dr. Kelleher will inform the committee that, as a result of a recent statement by a local farming group questioning the incidence of cancer, he approached the National Cancer Registry seeking more defined or sensitive data in the area. A special study into the matter has been initiated by Dr. Kelleher and his team.

With regard to the mortality study in the Askeaton area, the findings, which are exclusive of accidents and suicides, tell us that Askeaton and Rathkeale have favourable mortality rates generally when compared to the Mid-Western Health Board region. We can also look at adolescent health, child absenteeism and a variety of other possible indicators.

We attempted to carry out a hospital study based on hospital inpatient inquiry data and the patient administration system. Unfortunately, data was not accessible in the form required to carry out a proper and full analysis. However, our overall conclusions in the human health report - Dr. Kelleher can elaborate on them - tell us that, from 12 separate studies by the investigating team over a two year period, there is no evidence to support any link to any form of local environmental pollution.

The team did not find a significant degree of excessive ill health in the Askeaton area. However, it appears that in a small number of families there was an excess of self-reported mild ill health in the Askeaton area which did not, subsequently, lead to GP visits or involvement with the health services generally. This is an overview of the investigation and its results.

Chairman, you asked a question on consultancy costs. Consultancy comes to something like £200,000. That tells us that there is no scientific evidence to link any issues or concerns around environmental health with any adverse effects in human health in that area.

Mr. de Burca, you said you accounted for £767,008 and the Comptroller and Auditor General read out £1.2 million. Is the differential the staff costs which are not quantified in this?

Mr. de Burca

Yes. The £767,000 are additional funds spent arising from the study. The add-ons are the charge costs on the basis of the public health and environmental departments during that period.

Will you be able to give us an analysis of the consultants involved, their objectives and the fees paid to them?

Mr. de Burca

We can certainly do that.

Dr. Kelleher, you have been referred to in the submission. Mr. de Burca mentioned the local action group in Cappagh. Can you elaborate on this from your perspective? I want you to briefly deal with the internal inquiry you conducted into the loss of the blood samples.

Mr. de Burca

May I answer that question? I have a very specific reason for doing so. I have made a copy of the Conroy report, our inquiry, available to the committee. It was not commissioned by Dr. Kelleher. I commissioned it following discussions at the health board meeting arising from the publicity around the loss of the blood samples. It was undertaken by a group of three, one of whom is a senior management officer in the Western Health Board. This person is a doctor and has many years experience in the Canadian accreditation system. He was deemed by me to be well qualified to undertake what might be regarded as system and process audits. In essence, we publicly recognised there was a system breakdown with these blood supplies. These samples were provided by a family with the expectation that they would be assessed for the presence of certain chemicals. I make no excuses in respect of the hospital or the organisation but, through a variety of circumstances, those samples were mislaid. The Conroy report has comprehensively and exhaustively demonstrated where things went wrong. There were no holds barred. Quite a number of the samples were discovered during the investigation. They have been secured and are frozen pending further developments. In reading the report, we did not recognise anything other than a failure. We made a public apology in that regard and are unconditional in our observations there.

What we had to do reflects on ongoing work relative to standards in the laboratory since 1995. The report referenced about four or five documents which referred to efforts to improve process management in the laboratory. It has only been possible in the last two years to install the Apex laboratory system. Normally, the number of items going through our laboratory per annum is in excess of 570,000. Of those, 20,000 are blood bank type items. The report recognises that for normal referral procedures - both in terms of GP and internal hospital referrals - the system worked well. However, for peripheral referrals, the system was not adequately designed. In the last two years, arising from the Burnett report, a formal systems laboratory accreditation has been initiated. It takes about two and a half years to complete. On completion of that, we will be able to make a statement about best standards of practice being in place.

In considering the recommendations we find there was no capability within the laboratory itself to undertake toxicology investigations. Clearly there were issues, which I am managing internally, about standards setting and standards maintenance. There are issues of clinical governance and consultant autonomy which have to be dealt with. I do not want to get into a discourse about that. I will confine myself to saying that there have been too many public statements which I regard as inappropriate.

I appreciate that. The group I was referring to was the Cappagh Farmers' Support Group. Originally our objective was to quantify the amount of spending. I gave you the opportunity to qualify that because you were good enough to send us your internal document investigating the loss of the blood samples even though we did not request it. I gave you the opportunity to elaborate on it and I realise that there are constraints on that. Have you finished the submission on behalf of the Mid-Western Health Board or did Dr. Kelleher wish to add anything?

Mr. de Burca

I think Dr. Kelleher should comment on the Cappagh Farmers' Support Group and the recent request to the national cancer strategy service in Cork to follow up on it.

As the committee is aware, during the summer a number of newspaper reports indicated that a number of people in Askeaton and Cappagh felt there was an increase in the incidence of cancer in the area. I wrote to those people, and others mentioned in the report, seeking information. At the same time I was in contact with the director of the national cancer registry about how we could investigate this further. I have not received any information from those groups other than what was in the paper. However, in consultation with the director of the national cancer registry, we have now initiated a review of all cancer in the mid-western region from 1994-99. It will allow us to look, in detail, at cancer anywhere in the region. We will now be able to look at the area in question; it is slightly different from the area we were referred to in the main Askeaton report.

We have gone back to the cancer registry and they are providing us with the data. Unfortunately, that data is not quickly available because of the way it is collected. They have the data but it has never been codified. They now have to codify the data to give us the exact addresses and that will take three to four months. The board is paying for the additional staff to carry out that work. We expect to get the data early next year at which point we will be able to determine if there is an excess of any forms of cancer anywhere in the region, but particularly in Askeaton and Cappagh.

Mr. de Burca assured us that he would give us the brief and costs of the consultants.

Mr. de Burca

Of course.

We now move on to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. The details we got are extremely skimpy. Over £2 million was spent. Please elaborate on where it was spent.

As Dr. McCumiskey outlined this investigation was undertaken at the request of the then Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan. The request arose from concerns in the public domain in relation to animal deaths, particularly on one farm, but we were also aware of animal deaths on another farm and there were reports that animals were not thriving or were ill on other farms.

The animal health investigation was part of an integrated overall investigation as Dr. McCumiskey said under the aegis of the EPA. In so far as the animal health investigation was concerned the main objective was to find out exactly why cattle were dying and if there was an environmental problem or some other problem in this area. There was no protocol in place at that time for investigating incidents of this sort and this is why the approach that I mentioned was taken. I might add that in the very early stages a protocol was developed and that is now available and is the procedure followed in relation to animal health problems that occur and of which we become aware. I can give the committee a copy of the protocol.

The investigations in relation to animal health were undertaken under nine broad headings. I will mention a couple of them and the outcome of the studies as outlined in the animal health section of the comprehensive report published in August. In the first instance, this was probably the main element of the study, involving monitoring the health and production of cattle on the two most severely affected farms over a two year period. This involved the purchase of one farm, the leasing of another and effectively the running of the two farms under the Department's management. The outcome of this aspect of the study was that the overall level of mortality and disease in the period was low and there was no recurrence of the severe problems that had occurred on the farms in earlier years.

Another element of the study involved a retrospective epidemiological survey of the main farms involved and on 25 other farms. In so far as it was possible to establish the position - we were dealing with what happened in the past - the studies, in so far as they could, confirmed that there were serious animal health problems on two farms but they did not show a high incidence of unusual diseases and there was no indication that there was a common cause for the problems on the farms. In particular, the conclusion reached was that the problems were not consistent with the involvement of environmental pollution; that did not seem to be the cause of the problems.

There was also a study undertaken in relation to other farms which was detailed in respect of four and less so in respect of 21 others. The results of this showed some moderate to severe animal health problems but there was no indication of a high incidence of unusual disease. A further element of the study was an immunological study to establish whether there was a deficiency in the immune system of cattle as this had been suggested. The outcome of this element did not show any deficiency in the immune function of the cattle. Various specific studies were undertaken involving feeding a material to rats - there was also vole study - which did not show any particular problems in the area.

A significant volume of testing was undertaken on tissue and blood from cattle carcasses from the area. This did not show any concentrations of either fluorine or a range of metals, including aluminium. These were found to be well below the level likely to be harmful. This animal health study was complemented by studies undertaken by Teagasc in relation to soil, herbage, feed and water, the EPA monitoring of the environment and the human health studies that have been mentioned.

In broad terms the issues being looked at were whether there was any evidence of an unusually high incidence of animal health disease in the area and if so, to establish the causes; to establish if there was any evidence of environmental pollution; and, finally, if there was a threat to human health. In broad terms, the conclusions reached were that there had undoubtedly been a high incidence of animal disease on a small number of farms in the area but neither the number of farmers involved nor their distribution suggested there was evidence of a single phenomenon affecting the wider Askeaton area as a whole. It was more difficult to deal with the past partly because of the absence of references to our laboratory or the absence of access to material. The report did suggest that the likely causes of the disease or the problems on one of the farms were multi-factorial in origin but that it was not possible to identify all the contributory factors. In one case, lack of information precluded a final assessment being made in relation to the problems.

No convincing evidence was found that environmental pollution contributed to the animal health problems on either of the two main farms looked at or on the 25 other farms. In view of this the report concluded there was little basis for concern that the animal health problems represented a threat to human health.

In relation to costs, Chairman, I beg your indulgence and undertake to send you a detailed breakdown as soon as possible. Unfortunately, the people who compile the figures are reviewing the foot and mouth experience in Athlone for these three days and I have not been able to contact them. I undertake to get the figures to you as quickly as possible. A significant element of the costs involved related to the purchase of one of the farms but we subsequently sold it at not quite what we paid for it but we did have significant receipts. I think the receipts were in the order of £800,000 but I will provide a more detailed breakdown as quickly as possible.

Other costs would involve the development or the putting in place of suitable accommodation for animals at the two farms in Askeaton and also some refurbishment work at Abbotstown, which is also part of the investigation. In relation to the costs and, in particular, the refurbishment of accommodation at Abbotstown, some of the expenditure involved the provision of facilities that will continue to be available to the Department for either similar or other studies so while the figure may appear high, we will have ongoing use of some of the facilities and equipment involved in the expenditure, but I will get a more detailed breakdown as soon as possible.

Mr. Healy, thank you for your analysis of the Department's involvement. Perhaps we could have the information as soon as possible or before next Friday so that we can at least summarise, based on the discussions, the areas of expenditure.

You said several times that there was no environmental cause, and that comes across strongly in the report, but what do you think was the cause of the animal ill-health? We do not know the answer to that, despite the conclusions in the £4 million.

The original suggestions were that the problems were due to environmental pollution. The study seems to have excluded that as a factor in the problems. The main problems arose prior to the commencement of the study on one farm in the year or so before that and on the second farm many years before that. In so far as is known, the problems are those that are found on many farms around the country but are almost certainly more severe cases than the average. I cannot second guess or go beyond what the report found, but most of the conditions found are to be found on many farms around the country, but at a higher frequency on these two farms. We were not on the farms at the relevant times.

Mr. McCumiskey, what reassurance can you give to people living in the Shannon Estuary where it has been proven that 56% of the entire sulphur dioxide emissions for the country are spewed out? What assurances can you give the people there who are concerned since the revelation of this statistic? Should they be fearful for their health with such a high level of sulphur dioxide emissions?

Mr. McCumiskey

Thank you, Chairman. Yes, the highest levels are high although "high" is not absolute in this context. They are high in the Irish context in that area because of the power stations and the industrial plants that are located relatively close together. We can give that assurance because the levels we have recorded for many years of sulphur dioxide and nitrous oxide, to name but two, are well below the European limits that would have any measurable impact on human health. You mentioned the cost of the investigation, Chairman. While I recognise that the cost appears on the surface to be high, it must be remembered that it was carried out over many years and because of local concerns, no stone was left unturned to try to eliminate the causes of the unusual animal health problems. The investigation was thorough on that, and the data in relation to the air is not just our opinion. We had a peer review done by international experts in Edinburgh and Norway and they agreed with our assessment. We used international experts in case they knew something we did not know, but they were quite confident that that is not a problem. I can assure you, Chairman, that if it was, we would have heard from Europe on it a long time ago.

While I acknowledge your assurance that the high level of sulphur dioxide does not carry any health hazards, there would be concern in the area for obvious reasons. Is it a target of the Environmental Protection Agency to reduce the emissions levels in the area beyond the 56%? How does Moneypoint feature in that? It probably spews out the highest levels of sulphur dioxide in the estuary with the ESB plant? Perhaps you could elaborate on that situation?

Mr. McCumiskey

Moneypoint and——

Yes. As you know, they did not put in the scrubbers initially because of cost constraints.

Mr. McCumiskey

One of the major emitters as well is Aughinish Alumina. One of the conditions we put in the licence which we issued to them in 1995 was that they investigate the feasibility of using combined heat and power to avail of the energy wasted at the site. The latest information is that they have applied for planning permission to do that and its advent will result in a major reduction in the emissions to the local atmosphere from that plant. I cannot, off the top of my head, give you the actual reductions, but I can send them to you if that materialises. That is one aspect.

Under our climate change strategy published by the Government the intention, as you know, is to close Moneypoint as it currently operates.

I believe 2008 is the projected date.

Mr. McCumiskey

Yes, it will not burn solid fuel from that date. Obviously a changeover to gas would substantially reduce the current emissions in terms of sulphur dioxide and nitrous oxide. That is the position on that.

Moneypoint is very important for national grid purposes, but if they want to remain in operation after 2008, they will have to convert to natural gas.

Mr. McCumiskey

That is the position.

I am aware that Aughinish have the plans which you outlined. That would be significant also.

Mr. McCumiskey

Yes.

Thank you. Before I hand over to Deputy Bell, I want to get all the costs out of the way. I am aware that the main component of Teagasc's costs is mainly in regard to staff and travel and subsistence, but there is a reference there to soil and herbicide tests. Where were those soil and herbicide tests, which account for £64,778 for analysis costs, carried out?

Dr. Carton

All those tests were carried out in our laboratories in Johnstown Castle. We have a laboratory charge for an analysis because we operate an analytical services laboratory nationally, so the samples were submitted to the laboratory and costed at whatever the cost was for the number of samples. We have records of the total number of samples analysed and the list of analyses done.

Thank you.

Chairman, you have been thorough in the questions you asked, being very familiar with the subject because it concerns your own patch. May I ask Mr. Healy and Mr. O'Connor from the Department if they have identified the problems with animal health or established what is causing them? In other words, they know what the patient died from but they do not know what caused their illnesses. Is that what they are saying?

The problems we identified, such as mastitis and salmonella, are common on many farms.

Are they common on farms throughout the country or in that location?

Yes, farms throughout the country. They were more severe on two farms in particular than on other farms. Unfortunately, we do not at this point have data giving the average across the country. I do not think anyone suggested the levels of disease or problems on farms would be sustainable in the normal way. They were higher than the norm, but were the type of problems that occur at some level on virtually every commercial farm in the country. I could ask Mr. O'Connor to elaborate on the diseases or problems.

Has the Department identified how to counteract this problem, given the time and money that has been spent on it?

Mr. O’Connor

Our investigation took the stated position that we would investigate things caused before investigating the causes of things because we were not investigating a particular toxicant or something that was causing the death of the animals. That is why we established a wide-ranging investigation covering a large area.

We identified a series of reasons why animals were dying. They mimicked largely the types of diseases we see nationally. Granted they may have been greater on some farms than one would expect, but if one were to talk to any veterinary practitioner in any area of the country, he could identify farms that would have levels of mortality and levels or morbidity comparable to what we saw in Askeaton. When we moved into the two index farms and ran them for two years, there was no high level of disease on them. The disease had disappeared on them. At the same time, there were farms within the locality indicating that they were still suffering from what they decided was environmental pollution. On the one hand, we had two farms that were heavily controlled on which there was no disease, but on farms adjoining those farms there were still serious problems. We suggest that husbandry, nutrition, good fodder, concentrate feeding and good housing played a big part in reducing disease and problems on the two index farms.

Apart from the cost involved, is the Department continuing to investigate this problem from the point of view of trying to resolve it? Is it continuing research to try to find how to counteract what is happening in that area?

Mr. O’Connor

The investigation has terminated, but within fewer than 20 miles of the Askeaton area, we have a regional laboratory willing, able and in a position to investigate any mortality that arises.

Does the Department test every animal that dies?

Mr. O’Connor

No, absolutely not.

Mr. O’Connor

Animals are advised to us in the normal course of events through veterinary practitioners. They interface between the farmer and the laboratory service. However, in the Askeaton area, that is not the position in recent years. Any farmer who wishes can bring animals in for a post mortem without reference initially to his veterinary practitioner, but we would naturally report our results through the veterinary practitioner.

Is the cost of that carried by the Department?

Mr. O’Connor

Totally, which is not the case nationally, but we made a special arrangement vis-à-vis Askeaton.

Page 12 of the report states the family was unwittingly misled. If they were making inquiries through the health board for a year and felt there was a serious health problem, effectively they were being told lies by officials of the health board in accordance with what is contained in that report. Does the chief executive officer agree with that?

Mr. de Burca

I accept the report as written. There is an issue with which I am dealing regarding how the Department of Health and Children was being advised as to what was happening with regard to the samples. There was full disclosure around what information was given which lead the director of public health and his staff to believe the samples were being dealt with, which in fact they were not as samples were lost.

Would Mr. de Burca say that was due to incompetence on the part of staff of the health board or that they just simply misled the family?

Mr. de Burca

I have to take this on face value. "Unwittingly mislead" is the phrase used here. I cannot go far beyond this point with regard to making reference to names or issues with which I am dealing internally because of this.

I was careful not to ask Mr. de Burca to name anybody.

Mr. de Burca

Thank you.

That also comes under our terms of reference, as read by the Chairman. This is a damning report when a family made constant inquiries over 12 months about a matter they considered to be one of serious public health but were consistently told lies. Somebody had to consistently mislead them.

Mr. de Burca

From the point of view of what I know, I do not think they were deliberate lies. At the time the old laboratory was being dismantled and the new laboratory, a major investment in our area as part of the regional hospital development, was in the process of construction and there was a good deal of toing and froing. We and our director of public health were told that the samples were put in storage, but when it came to the point of discovery, it was evident that no discernible record had been maintained of the whereabouts of the samples. However, as I said in my opening comments, in the context of the investigation some of the samples were subsequently discovered. The point the Deputy raised is one with which I have to deal and am dealing with as the chief executive of the organisation. This is attributable to a particular area, which is pointed out clearly in the report, but for certain considerations I do not want to make further comment on that. The Deputy has read what the report says and we accept what it says and are dealing with it.

I can only say God forbid if we had to deal with an outbreak of cholera, anthrax of something very serious, if it took a year to carry out tests and then a family had to be advised there was no trace of any samples or records.

Mr. de Burca

I clarify that these samples were referred by the family who were very well informed about matters around their own concerns. They presented those samples to the laboratory in the expectation that specific tests could be undertaken and they listed certain chemicals they specified which might have been identified. I am dealing with the fact that the family should have been advised at that time that there was not a competence in the regional hospital laboratory, as there is not a competence in regional hospital laboratories generally, to undertake investigations or assessments around toxins in terms of industrial pollutants. I recognise, and the report states this, that information should have been given to the family. To this day those samples are there, but we have not been advised that certain further investigations will take place at the request of the family. Dr. Kelleher will note that an expert located in another part of the health care system was mentioned, but to my recollection this option was not taken up. The issue really is around what would have been discovered if these samples had been referred to a competent agency. My interpretation of it is that the primary responsibility rests with the general practitioner for the family. In the ordinary course, where it is an area of specialisation, it is referred to what is described as a lead physician. In this instance there was not a lead physician; in fact, it would be rare enough to find a lead physician with this type of competency. At an early stage - I think it was towards the end of 1998 - Dr. Kelleher offered the family, and we subsequently made repeated offers, that wherever in the world there is somebody with this competence, we will make that person available. That offer stands open to this day.

Thank you for being so straightforward, but what you have said has serious implications when one considers the substantial amount of money the taxpayer has paid for public health. You are saying that in some areas we do not have competent people to carry out certain tests.

Mr. de Burca

That is a point in relation to a very specialised area which is industrial pollutants and the appropriate investigations. Our laboratories are not designed for that purpose. They are for ordinary human health issues, not for defects due to industrial pollutants. The real point at issue is the fact that adequate records were not maintained and we have addressed that problem.

Thank you for being so frank and honest with the committee. Serious matters have emerged from this discussion which need to be rectified. The Department of Health and Children will have to answer some of the points made today, in the interests of public health and the cost of public health.

I do not think Mr. de Burca has any difficulties with that. I accept the Deputy's point. In fairness, the report was presented to the members although it was an internal report. It was given to us in good faith because the original objective of the committee was to analyse it with regard to public spending. The report was presented to members and it was understood that we would digress into that area on the basis of having the health board officials here.

I have an interest in that subject which dates from the early 1980s when something similar happened. The health board will say its job is somewhat different from the one envisaged here. The investigation of industrial pollutants is the responsibility of another agency. Which agency is that?

Mr. McCumiskey

Where there are allegations of industrial pollution in the case of any industry or plant we regulate; we are responsible. If they are regulated by the local authority, the local authority is responsible for investigating them.

In what way are they regulated by the local authority?

Mr. McCumiskey

They are licensed by the local authority. The local authority would be responsible for the licence it issued and the general regulation.

So the local authority monitors them?

Mr. McCumiskey

Yes.

Does it carry out the investigation in the event of there being a concern or query?

Mr. McCumiskey

Or cause it to be carried out.

Do the local authorities have the technical know how to do that?

Mr. McCumiskey

No, they do not have to have it. They can get a competent authority in that area to do it.

Where would they be likely to get it? If I was the chief executive of a local authority, where would I get that technical expertise?

Mr. McCumiskey

On a health matter?

On a matter of this nature or if, for example, one wished to deal with the impact on health of industrial pollutants or if one wished to analyse samples or monitor air, ground or water samples for deposits of various chemicals and to measure their potential impact. We are in danger of getting into the area of conflict between expert opinion. I want to get that cleared out of the way because it is an important issue. Many people have concerns about this issue at present and have had such concerns for years. One of the problems we must address is how to make the system work so it will have the confidence of the public. It should be able to differentiate between legitimate concerns and simple fear or concern that is groundless. How can we do that?

Mr. McCumiskey

If it is a case of industrial pollution and the local authority does not have the capacity to investigate, the EPA will have the capacity to do so.

Who will the local authority go to first in the event of it having issued a licence to an enterprise about which a concern or fear was expressed about pollution with health hazard implications? The health board is one body it could approach for certain tasks. Could it also approach the EPA?

Mr. McCumiskey

Yes.

What could the EPA supply to the local authority?

Mr. McCumiskey

If it is related to the pollution area, in any media, we can supply the expertise, both analytical and interpretative, to assist in the situation. It can relate to air, water or soil.

I have asked a number of parliamentary questions about air pollution and monitoring air pollution. The difficulty is that Members cannot get a ministerial reply because the Minister does not have direct responsibility to the House. Members will generally be referred to a report - a good report, I should add - which the EPA produces regularly. However, it is of no value a year later.

If I put down a parliamentary question inquiring about the current results of air pollution monitoring in any part of the country, under a number of headings, I should be able to get that information. I should not have to wait for a report to be compiled but be able to have that information in three or four days. In previous times parliamentarians were criticised for wasting public money by asking parliamentary questions. Now we must get the information under the Freedom of Information Act which is a more laborious and costly system. However, we must get the information and other people have to get it as well. Why can we not have a system to restore public confidence in what we are doing?

Mr. McCumiskey

I sympathise with what the Deputy is saying. I take his point that our report becomes yesterday's news when it is a year old. The Deputy is talking about real time monitoring. We have a number of real time monitors around the country. For example, we can tell the Deputy the levels of sulphur dioxide at any location where there is a real time monitor. We can tell it every 50 minutes of the day, 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. Unfortunately, one cannot do that with every parameter. They do not lend themselves to automated monitoring. We can also do that will low level ozone levels and with nitrous oxide levels. However, it has not yet reached the stage, not just in Ireland but in any other European country, where one can put everything on a real time monitor but I agree that is the direction in which we are moving. As technology develops further, that will be the position and the Deputy and everybody else should be entitled to know what the problem is at any time of the day or night.

I am glad to hear that. In the last couple of years in my constituency, sudden incredibly high levels of a particular air pollutant were recorded and this caused extreme concern among local people. We then discovered that the technology being used dated from the 1950s. If we are serious about doing a job, it is possible to get state of the art technology. It is simple nowadays; it is not necessary to lay pipes and so forth to do it. It is simply done with a wire put into a computer. One can monitor the entire country with the touch of a button whenever one wishes, all day every day. One can transmit that information to a central authority. Then, if a member of the public or a Member of Parliament makes an inquiry, he or she should be able to get the information. To what extent are we moving towards that now? People can get extremely concerned about different types of pollutants or about any threat to their environment. They are entitled to the information without it being slanted in one direction or another.

Mr. McCumiskey

That is the direction in which we are moving. I concur with the view expressed by the Deputy.

If samples are required for one reason or another, what agencies will take them? I presume the EPA and the local authority can find the expertise to do that. However, someone should take overall responsibility for it. If it falls between agencies, we will not get anywhere and history will prove that. The EPA or the local authority should be responsible. There should be only one body responsible and it should take independent samples. I could take a sample of anything and no one would know from where I got it. Other people could also produce a sample. The body must be a statutory body charged with the responsibility of getting information and doing the job. If it does not do that, the people should be fired in the same way that politicians are fired if they do not do their job. It is important to do that to ensure the highest level of public confidence in the system.

As regards Askeaton, it was said the degree of disease there was somewhat more prevalent than in other areas. How is the term "somewhat" measured?

I mentioned earlier that we do not have a national norm for diseases, such as mastitis or salmonella. However, the reported levels of disease - in many cases we were relying on reported deaths and problems rather than on actual evidence of problems or deaths - would not have been sustainable——

The levels reported are immaterial. Surely there is a case for investigating the extent of the actual situation as opposed to relying on what was heard or reported. Some hard evidence must be gleaned from follow-up procedures.

Some of these reported deaths and problems occurred in the early 1990s when we were not on the farms to monitor. That is why we relied on reports rather than actual hard evidence because we were not on the farms or we did not have much in the way of private veterinary practitioner reports. We relied on what the farmers told us and did not dispute what they told us because we were not in a position to do so. However, we were also not in a position to confirm their information.

I am sorry to go back on this point again. To what degree were post-mortems carried out? I could report to you tomorrow morning that my dog died from a disease, although I hope he does not. How would you verify that? What would you do about it?

In the early 1990s we had little information on cattle or other animal deaths. Approximately 150,000 or 160,000 cattle die on farms every year for a variety of reasons. In the past we did not require farmers to formally notify us of deaths. That has changed since 1996. Farmers must now report all cattle deaths. There is a system in place for the collection or disposal of cattle. In the period about which we are talking, we did not have data and farmers were not obliged to report cattle deaths. They buried them on farms in many cases.

I am not getting anywhere fast on this point. If I, as a member of the public, told you ten years ago that my dog died and that I was concerned about what he died from because I did not like the look of him after he died, what would have happened? Would there have been an examination of the animal? Would anything have happened apart from the fact that I reported the animal had died and I did not like the look of him?

The Deputy has raised an extremely important point not just about animal health but about human health. There is a need for us to have high quality surveillance systems for both human and animal health for a variety of reasons. It is not just about environmental pollution but also about other issues, such as infectious diseases. My veterinary colleague would agree it is of vital importance. It is equally important and it has been recognised elsewhere in the world that it is not just about this issue. The issue of bio-terrorism has also become clear. We need high quality public health systems to be aware of that. People have concerns about other diseases. However, they would not be recognised rapidly in Ireland at the moment because our information systems both for humans and animals are poor. A major change in our information systems is required. We are lagging behind systems elsewhere in the world. The Deputy is right that there is a major need for us to get high quality public health systems, both human and animal, in place so we are aware of these type of risks, whether they are from fresh diseases, environmental pollution or from deliberate acts. The Deputy is correct that we are lagging behind other countries.

That is coming to the nub of what I was trying to identify. At least I know I am not completely crazy because there is a recognition that there is a problem. The real problem is public confidence in the system. The public must rely on what we do and be reassured that it is right and that we respond quickly. People can then rest assured they are in safe hands. If they cannot do so, we have an ongoing and more serious problem. I hope all the agencies concerned recognise the need to respond quickly. When something happens, there is no point leaving it for three or four days, weeks or years. We must deal with it instantly and someone must do his or her job. If he or she does not, then we should ask questions. Unless we have a culture where that can happen, we will have a serious and ongoing problem. Ultimately, someone somewhere will have to deal with an embarrassing situation and then we will all be in trouble.

We should be able to get information in the House. I am sure the Chairman has tried on many occasions to get information and has found it almost impossible to do so. One would need to be Sherlock Holmes to get it. That should not be the case because information should be readily available. We should be able to monitor what happened last week in any part of the country. I should be able to gain access to that information with the minimum of effort. That includes the Department of the Environment and Local Government which must be aware of its responsibilities in that area, particularly in relation to how the information is made available and accessible from our point of view. I apologise for discussing this point at length.

I do not wish to digress or to delay the meeting too long. I am intrigued by the last speaker's reference to bio-terrorism. How does he define that? How much of a threat is it? I am not sure if he is speaking from a health board or a medical or veterinary perspective. Is he suggesting that the country is defenceless, in effect?

I am not making that point.

Speaking from a health board, veterinary, medical or whatever perspective he comes from, is he suggesting that effectively the country is defenceless from the potential threat posed by bio-terrorism? Is he suggesting there is no tracking or monitoring system with the result that, in effect, we are unaware of bio-terrorist incidents or experiments being conducted on our population? What is he suggesting in terms of the definition of bio-terrorism as he sees it? What is lacking that leaves us defenceless or unable to respond effectively to this threat if it should rear its ugly head?

There has been a significant amount of debate and discussion in the medical literature about how a country would prepare for a bio-terrorism attack. This has been to the forefront, particularly after what happened in Japan with the sarin attack in the underground system. In the United States, in particular, much work has been done on how to prepare a country for such an event. Having said that, the difference between what is likely to happen in the United States and Ireland is very great. We are renowned for our neutral status and, therefore, highly unlikely to be the focus for any bio-terrorism attack - maybe indirectly, but not directly.

A country needs to have a strong public health surveillance system which would incorporate both humans and animals, and allow, as the Deputy said, a real-time system to identify new cases of certain disease or syndromes, some of which take a period of three or four weeks before they become evident. Equally, some of them may not be as obvious in the first few days to practitioners because they are not necessarily diseases they come across. The disease about which everybody is talking, anthrax, has initial symptoms predominantly like those of flu. Why, therefore, would people know any different until we start into the process? An information system is required to allow people to see it. Our information systems are not real-time and we do not have the numbers. We probably have a better system for humans than for animals, but it is not at the level of other areas, such as France, Scandinavia and North America.

We have already witnessed a change in practice - the delay in the Askeaton investigation was mentioned - as a result of the protocol put in place following that investigation. What happened in the Silvermines was precipitated by the deaths of three animals from lead poisoning. Within a year of those deaths being identified we had a report which contained recommendations for major changes in an area in the mid-west, coincidentally. This demonstrates a significant change in how State organisations work as a consequence of what happened in Askeaton. We went in rapidly and came out within a year with a significant report clearly identifying a pollutant as the problem and containing close on 40 recommendations about what needed to be done. There has been a major consequence following the report, not necessarily for those living locally, but for the people of Ireland. There has been a major change; what happened in the Silvermines is a clear example of this and there are others within the State. We have made changes.

Bio-terrorism occurs when people use bio-chemical agents to create war. It can be done in a number of ways, but predominantly by using aeroplanes or putting agents into air-conditioning systems. That is the main definition of bio-terrorism.

May I ask one question?

Thank you, Dr. Kelleher. I advise the Deputy that we are digressing a little now. While it is very interesting and we respect his question, on Tuesday, 18 December, the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children will appear before the committee. If the Deputy wishes to probe some of the subjects raised, that would be an excellent time to do so, before the festive season - just to put us in a good mood for our turkey.

I am concluding our discussion on the financial statements for the period 1995-2000 on the basis that Mr. Healy and Mr. de Burca will, I hope, fax in the details requested to the clerk of the committee before next Friday. They relate to the consultant's report on the amount of spending. Mr. Healy, a more elaborate analysis of the sum of £2 million, and where it went, is required.

We have had a comprehensive discussion on this matter. Our next meeting will be held at 5 p.m. on Tuesday, 20 November, when we will discuss the 2000 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Appropriation Accounts - Vote 34 - for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. We will now adjourn. I thank you all for your attendance at this session.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee adjourned at 5.35 p.m. until5 p.m. on Tuesday, 20 November 2001.
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