COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 7 Mar 2002

Vol. 4 No. 7

University College Dublin - Financial Statements 1997 and 1998 (Resumed) and 1999.

Dr. Art Cosgrove (President, University College Dublin) called and examined.

Chairman

Representatives of University College Dublin last appeared before the committee on 16 November 2000. Witnesses should be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and be apprised as follows: members and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they shall not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 149 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

Will Dr. Cosgrove, please, introduce his officials?

Dr. Cosgrove

I am accompanied by Dr. Caroline Hussey, registrar; Mr. Eamonn Ceannt, bursar, and Mr. Donal Doolan, head of financial management.

Mr. Patrick McDonagh

I am assistant secretary, third level division, at the Department of Education and Science. I am accompanied by Ms Mary McGarry, principal officer, universities-third level section.

Mr. John Hayden

I am secretary-chief executive officer of the Higher Education Authority. I am accompanied by Mr. Stewart Roche, management accountant.

Chairman

I call on Mr. Purcell to introduce the 1997, 1998 and 1999 accounts.

Mr. Purcell

I will be brief because we are dealing with the tag end of matters arising at previous meetings. The committee is revisiting the contents of the supplement to my audit report on the accounts of UCD for the years 1997 and 1998. I drew attention, among other matters, to some concerns I had about governance and other issues surrounding the operations of a subsidiary company used by the university to deliver certain courses associated with the Faculty of Commerce, a matter the committee has examined in some detail.

I am not sure what the net issues remaining to be dealt with are, other than perhaps the adequacy of the return from the arrangement with the Institute of Bankers. I recall it being stated at a previous meeting that the particular arrangement with the institute was under review. I expect it to have been renegotiated by now. I am sure the Accounting Officer will be able to bring the committee up to date on the resolution of this issue and the effectiveness of countermeasures put in place to address the other issues highlighted in my report.

Chairman

Would Dr. Cosgrove like to elaborate on what the Comptroller and Auditor General said?

Dr. Cosgrove

I would, first, like to deal with the issue of the Institute of Bankers. We are on the point of signing a draft agreement between University College Dublin and the Institute of Bankers which takes account of the issues raised here. The main change, from an academic point of view, is that the certificates and diplomas awarded under the previous regime no longer exist. The university is responsible only for the degree of bachelor of financial services. Our costs are more than covered by what we receive from the Institute of Bankers and we are satisfied we get a fair return. I suppose what we are doing is providing an opportunity for those who have reached a certain level under the Institute of Bankers' courses to come to UCD and receive a degree of bachelor of financial services on which we are satisfied we get an adequate return. It is part of the wider issue of continuing professional education needed much more in the context of lifelong learning.

Deputy Rabbitte

You are welcome back, Dr. Cosgrove. Given what you said, are the diplomas and certificates awarded by UCD up to now gone?

Dr. Cosgrove

We are no longer enrolling candidates for either diploma or certificate courses. The only students registered with us are those undertaking the bachelor of financial services degree course.

Deputy Rabbitte

From when did that come into effect?

Dr. Cosgrove

I believe it began in the year 2000, perhaps 2001. I am open to correction.

Deputy Rabbitte

The last day we were talking about 2,300 students registered. How many will now be registered to undertake the bachelor of finance degree course?

Dr. Cosgrove

The number of students involved for the year 2001-2002 was 239. I do not know how many will graduate. Perhaps it will be a slightly different figure.

Deputy Rabbitte

Roughly, what are the financial considerations attached to registering for the degree course?

Dr. Cosgrove

What we receive in lieu of each student is something in the order of €330 and an overall return of €116,000, or £92,000.

Deputy Rabbitte

Some €330 per student.

Dr. Cosgrove

For the part we play in providing services for the degree course. The students pay considerably more to the institute.

Deputy Rabbitte

Does the institute make a payment to the college other than the €300 plus?

Dr. Cosgrove

The flat fee is €38,000 for accreditation, quality control and oversight by the Faculty of Commerce.

Deputy Rabbitte

There is a lump sum, so to speak, per annum paid by the institute.

Dr. Cosgrove

Yes.

Deputy Rabbitte

Who made the arrangement this time? We had some difficulty the last day——

Dr. Cosgrove

The agreement was negotiated by our planning officer with representatives of the Institute of Bankers. It has reached final draft stage and seems to take account of the concerns expressed previously about the issue of whether we received an adequate return for the service provided.

Deputy Rabbitte

The Faculty of Commerce has been taken out of the equation this time.

Dr. Cosgrove

The Faculty of Commerce is advising on this question, but not negotiating. It will come eventually to the finance committee of the university.

Deputy Rabbitte

What is society or banking losing out as a result of this dreadful reform instituted by the Committee of Public Accounts? Where have all the people who were seeking certificates and diplomas gone to?

Dr. Cosgrove

They are still getting certificates and diplomas, presumably from the Institute of Bankers. However, we are no longer involved to that extent. The Deputy will recall that of the big numbers who enrolled, very few came through to degree level. As he commented on a previous occasion, a very small percentage of the large number who enrolled at the beginning actually finished the degree course. There has always been a tendency to drop out. The numbers enrolling for the degree course are much less, but I would not care to predict how many will graduate. The figure would probably be 100.

Deputy Rabbitte

Did we ever establish who was responsible for the previous agreement?

Dr. Cosgrove

I think the previous agreement was negotiated by the Dean of Commerce within the institute, or it may have been the Professor of Banking at the time.

Deputy Rabbitte

Did we establish if its terms had been approved by any relevant organ of the university at any point?

Dr. Cosgrove

Yes, we did. It had been approved at one stage, even though I do not have the exact details of when that approval took place. There was also a question about payments being made by the Institute of Bankers rather than by the university. That has also been corrected. Any payments made will be known by the university and approved by the finance committee.

Deputy Rabbitte

The committee are happy that that is a significant and necessary change. Has AMP gone out of existence?

Dr. Cosgrove

AMP, Advanced Management Programme, ceased trading in September 1999.

Deputy Rabbitte

What is the arrangement in terms of the delivery of degrees in the Far East?

Dr. Cosgrove

Those degrees are all under the control of the Dean of International Affairs and subject to yearly review by the governing authority and finance committee.

Deputy Rabbitte

Having looked at this matter are you satisfied that academic work and student tutelage did not suffer in UCD as a result of the manner in which courses were operated prior to now?

Dr. Cosgrove

I am satisfied. In fairness to the Faculty of Commerce, all the international reviews of its operation by worldwide accrediting bodies have been very favourable. It seems to me that it is on the basis of objective surveys by outside bodies that the faculty of commerce is in a good position. I did not see that there was any consequent damage to it by its involvement in these overseas courses. It is also in line with expressed policy that we should be doing more overseas and recruiting more overseas students. The Skilbeck report encourages the universities to become more entrepreneurial and earn income from sources other than the State.

Deputy Rabbitte

We are puzzled as to how students in the Far East could register and qualify for honour degrees in 15 months while our students take three years or longer.

Dr. Cosgrove

Not all of our students take three years because we enrol first time students in second year on the basis of their having achieved a diploma at an institute of technology, therefore, the commerce degree can be completed in two years. The two years includes summer and Easter breaks and the amount of time spent in classes is much the same. I know it was proposed to students here that we could run a summer semester and process them more quickly. The argument against that was it was discriminatory because only wealthy students could do that, poorer students could not afford to miss out on summer work as a means of maintaining themselves.

Deputy Rabbitte

I am sure that has nothing to do with staff and the end of civilisation as we know it.

Dr. Cosgrove

That is another issue. It has to be said there is a different work ethic in some of those countries. The amount of time spent in classes is roughly the same.

Deputy Rabbitte

Regarding the method of payment - and I know the university has furnished us with a good deal of data since - we were not able to agree on precisely what the royalty was on the last occasion. There was no dispute on the royalty methodology being an appropriate mechanism, rather it arose from the amount of the royalty. If one takes the figures suggested by the Comptroller - 3,000 plus registered in 1997 and divides that into the approximately £5,000 fee - a royalty of £326 per student was gained. Dr. Cosgrave suggested in the evidence that a more appropriate way of calculating the royalty would be to subtract the number of students registered under the institute of bankers and divide the result into the same figure which produced a figure of close to £1,000 royalty per student. Has there been any clarification on that since? Did UCD receive a fee of closer to £1,000 or £326?

Dr. Cosgrove

In the detailed tables we gave to the Comptroller, the royalty per student varied between £630 and £817, with one at £1,714. We also provided the committee with information which attempted to show what the cost would be if we ran these courses directly as opposed to employing an agent. We showed that there was a disparity and that it was wiser and more prudent to run them on this basis which produced an income of approximately £500,000 per annum for the university, a great deal of which has been spent on the building of the new undergraduate facility at UCD.

Deputy Rabbitte

Is Dr. Cosgrove telling the committee that for a student in Singapore paying £5,000 per annum - or is it per course - UCD receives a royalty of £613 to £817?

Dr. Cosgrove

Yes, after all costs had been met.

Deputy Rabbitte

Were all costs met by AMP?

Dr. Cosgrove

Costs would be met by AMP but we now take care of payments to our lecturers. The costs of mounting the course, advertising etc. went through the agent.

Deputy Rabbitte

There was some reference to a more clear system of remuneration of staff, over and above traditional invigilation and so on, being worked out by the college and that ministerial approval was being applied for. Has that happened and what is the current arrangement? The Comptroller was careful to say in his supplemental report that he was not talking about traditional exam correction or invigilation, rather he was concerned with payments "for other activities which purported to be over and above the normal duties of academic staff in universities". Is a system in place and has ministerial approval been granted? I have the reference here; the Comptroller said that for the most part, staff involved in the delivery of local and overseas courses are now paid additional remuneration in the form of allowances approved by the finance committee of the college and that UCD has applied for the necessary ministerial approvals.

Dr. Cosgrove

The finance committee set out two things. If staff are to qualify for payments above what is normal, it will have to be certified as having been extra duty. The amount of payment that can be made is limited to 20% of a person's salary and this must be approved annually by the finance committee. I am not aware if it essential that such payments receive ministerial approval.

Deputy Rabbitte

Does any of Dr. Cosgrove's colleagues know where the Comptroller formed the impression that ministerial approval had been applied for?

Dr. Cosgrove

Separate allowances are returned to the HEA. A framework allowing for departures from remuneration on an agreed basis also exists. That was laid out by the Higher Education Authority but it is rarely used.

Mr. Hayden

When we get this information from the universities we compile it and send it to the Department of Education and Science who, in turn, discusses it with the Department of Finance. Under the law, the Ministers of Education and Science and Finance agree the levels of remuneration. Since the last meeting we attended here there have been many meetings between the Departments to secure information from all the colleges on the same basis. Only yesterday there was a meeting between the Departments and the Higher Education Authority on this topic, there were also representatives from a number of colleges.

Chairman

Is the Department of Education and Science and the Higher Education Authority happy with these programmes in the Far East under this kind of advanced management?

Mr. McDonagh

Obviously we share any concerns that others might have regarding the quality and impact on the reputation of the university. As long as there is no cross-subsidies to the courses from the Exchequer, the Department could not balk at the universities trying to generate income. Ultimately that commercially generated income will benefit the human and physical infrastructure in the institution.

Mr. Hayden

Subject to what Mr. McDonagh has said, we would welcome activity of this kind as it helps institutions increase the range of resources available to them.

Deputy Rabbitte

What precisely does Mr. Hayden mean when he says it increases the range of resources available? To whom, to do what?

Mr. Hayden

To the university to carry out various activities, such as to improve the number of students from disadvantaged backgrounds. We can only partly fund those activities at the level at which the universities wish to operate them, and so they have to raise some funding.

Deputy Rabbitte

To what disadvantage are you referring?

Mr. Hayden

I refer to students from disadvantaged backgrounds. The colleges and universities have different activities, which we have partially funded for some years under the targeted initiative scheme. For example, there could be links with second level schools in disadvantagedareas.

Deputy Rabbitte

How does that fit into the AMP, Institute of Bankers issue that we are examining?

Mr. Hayden

It is a general income issue. If colleges have more private income, or general income, it helps them to partially finance these activities.

Deputy Rabbitte

We are agreed that the income ought not to be exaggerated as it is very small. Is it that it is dedicated to courses for disadvantaged Irish students?

Mr. Hayden

No, it contributes to a university's general income, which it may use for the various purposes universities are set up to achieve.

Dr. Cosgrove

I can say that €2 million went into building our school of commerce.

Deputy Rabbitte

Thank you, Dr. Cosgrove. Does Mr. McDonagh agree with Dr. Cosgrove about the ceiling being set on the amount of income in excess of salary that might be earned by anyone engaged in such work on behalf of the university? Clearly, this did not apply in the past. We know of a substantial number of people earning very significant sums above 20%.

Mr. McDonagh

Yes, the Department is anxious to establish a ceiling. As Mr. Hayden pointed out, through the Higher Education Authority we have information on a range of allowances paid by institutions which is being reviewed at the moment. It is proposed to have meetings with the institutions to determine what the approval will be in that regard. A figure will emerge from the discussions, but we will certainly be anxious that it will not be at a level that would have implications for the work load in terms of commercial activity of people within the institution.

Deputy Durkan

In the 1998 report, there is a reference to the reduction of funding for the advanced technical skills programme from £1.6 million to £1.4 million in 1996-1997 and a further reduction the following year. Can this be explained, and how does it affect the college's operations and in meeting external skills requirements?

Dr. Cosgrove

It was a targeted programme. It has been overtaken by other methods of providing for this.

Deputy Durkan

Could Dr. Cosgrove elucidate on that?

Dr. Cosgrove

All of the universities co-operated with the requests of the Higher Education Authority and the Department to increase numbers in certain areas where there was a national need. The latest one was the need to increase the number of physiotherapists. All the colleges recently increased the number doing computer science in response to a request from the HEA, which was done in a general way instead of devoting a specific sum of money for advanced technical skills. That is my memory of it, but I am open to correction by my colleagues in the HEA. There has been a general agreement among the universities to take account of what the economy now needs, and we have responded to these perceived needs, as the Higher Education Authority would confirm.

Deputy Durkan

Is there a general recognition that there is a falling off of interest at second level in the sciences and maths?

Dr. Cosgrove

Yes.

Deputy Durkan

Has the college targeted those areas with the view of meeting the projected requirements and adjusting it in the future?

Dr. Cosgrove

The problem is not in the colleges but at secondary level. We cannot force people into universities to do particular subjects. It is an application procedure. There is a difficulty at second level in persuading students to take maths, physic and chemistry, as they are perceived as subjects in which it is difficult to gain high points. Whether right or wrong, that perception influences the school population.

Through school visits and other means, we do our best to ensure that the students are aware of the opportunities to take science subjects at UCD, but this is not an easy problem to solve. Some advance the view that we should give more points for these subjects. We have only come back from the issue of favouring maths in that way and I am not sure that it would be the solution. A council has been sitting under the chairmanship of Dr. O'Hare, which is looking at what we might do collectively to reverse the trend which sees students turning away from presumed difficult subjects like physics and chemistry. If they do not do them at school, it is difficult for them to catch up. We may have to consider providing foundation courses in these subjects to enable students to come back into a scientific education. It is a big problem and I look forward to Dr. O'Hare's report.

Deputy Durkan

Given that the signs have been there for a few years, the degree of liaison between the third and second level institutions will have a bearing on how it will be dealt with. To what extent do the colleges influence the second level to ensure that we do not have an even worse problem in another six or seven years?

Dr. Cosgrove

The second level institutions are keenly aware of this problem. A difficulty, for example, is that many schools are not equipped with laboratories to teach chemistry, and, therefore, the opportunity is not there. Another question is the recruitment of teachers, and it seems to be a circular argument. There may be too few students to justify a physics teacher, for instance, but if there is not a physics teacher, students are not attracted to do it. One might say that teachers of certain subjects should receive extra pay, as happens in the UK, but that would not be regarded as constructive.

Deputy Durkan

There is a scarcity in a number of areas, such as nursing. What action has been taken to address that? It will get worse as time goes on. It may be addressed through pay, for example, but if there is a lack of interest that will not help. Other problem areas are orthodontics and male teachers. These have been discussed before and I, as I am sure others have, have spoken about them at a local level for more than 20 years, so it is not a new problem. Is there any intervention which will nail down the elusive areas and ensure we have an adequate supply of core workers in those areas in the future?

Dr. Cosgrove

As the Deputy knows, all of the universities have provided places for nurses to qualify as graduates. That scheme will come into play within a year or two. We will take in a big increase into nursing as it becomes an all graduate profession. We are not involved in orthodontics because we do not have a dentistry element. The issue of the number of male teachers is really a perception of the status and salary of the job. We can only influence to a limited extent. At school pupils are influenced by their teachers, parents and those providing career guidance. We try to keep all of those informed of the opportunities available but at the end of the day it is the student's choice and that is usually influenced by peers, parents and teachers.

We are all in the business of trying to attract the best students to our institutions so we make big efforts at school liaison and publicising. We are keenly aware that the number of 18 year olds will fall in future years. We are making efforts to attract people but it is ultimately a student choice. Students not only choose on the basis of what the course at university is like, a lot of them look to see what kind of career is on offer. The issue has a multi-faceted solution and is not easily solved.

Deputy Durkan

Every year we hear about the scarcity of places and the usual complaints about the points system, yet we go and repeat the same process the following year. For example, not long ago somebody was interested in studying the equine industry but there was no such place available in the country. I find it hard to believe that in a country world famous for its equine industry we should have to——

Chairman

Courses in equine studies are available.

Deputy Durkan

Yes, but there are particular studies that cannot be pursued and people have to go to the UK. That is quite common. To what extent have we identified those areas and addressed them?

Dr. Cosgrove

I would be very sympathetic to the Deputy's interest in equine studies as I have my own interests in that direction.

Deputy Durkan

I am aware of that.

Dr. Cosgrove

Those areas are covered mainly by the veterinary college which has the treatment of horses as one of its functions. They also have an equine studies side in the form of a master's degree. We need to work out what we are trying to do here. I would argue that we could do something that would cover not just what the horses are doing but what those involved with horses are up to. Perhaps some study of the horseracing industry as a whole could bring together not just veterinary surgeons but people in commerce too. It could look at the whole issue of the horseracing industry. I am not sure, however, that my colleagues would have the same enthusiasm for this as I have.

Deputy Durkan

They could always be encouraged.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

What did Y2K compliance cost?

Dr. Cosgrove

It cost about £30,000.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I cannot say we were ripped off so.

Dr. Cosgrove

No. It is one of those issues where it is impossible to say we benefited. It is rather like the man tearing up papers because he was told it kept away the elephants. It was the same with Y2K. If nothing happened then it was possible to say it was because we took the precaution but there is no way of proving that.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I wondered what was the total cost to the State of Y2K conformity. For instance, what did it cost the Department of Education and Science?

Mr. McDonagh

I chaired the Y2K committee in the Department of Education and Science and there was a sigh of relief when nothing went wrong at the beginning of the new year. Taking it in manpower terms alone there was significant expenditure of personnel time on it through the actual personnel resources that went into it, the interaction with institutions and multi-reporting etc. I would not be able to quantify the spend but everything went smoothly. If something had gone wrong we would have been accused of not having put sufficient resources into it to ensure it went well.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Are fingers being pointed at anybody who might ask questions?

Mr. McDonagh

No. Everybody was conscious throughout the period of reporting and liaising on a weekly or monthly basis with institutions outside the Department on the possibility of something going wrong. Payments had been made to staff over the transition period of the new year to have staff on standby for when we went live to make certain everything went smoothly. It could be argued, since everything went smoothly, that there was unnecessary expenditure on overtime and personnel. However, if it had gone wrong there would have been criticism.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I am not going to quibble over £30,000. Will Mr. Cosgrove speak to us about research and development? What was the total university spend and what did it account for in terms of generating revenue?

Dr. Cosgrove

The funded research income would have been about £15 million in 1999.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Is that very low in comparison with other universities?

Dr. Cosgrove

It is low in comparison to our size but it has been climbing steadily and this year it will be €25 million.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

How does it compare with UCC?

Dr. Cosgrove

It would not be as good as UCC but——

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Would I be right in saying that UCC's income is in the region of £100 million?

Dr. Cosgrove

The Deputy would have to be careful of what was being talked of as research income and if we include research income coming through PRTLI or other sources. We are talking simply about funded research income. We would be behind UCC in terms of funding per head but a lot of its income comes through one source, the micro-electronics centre. We would not necessarily record all income because the medical research income would go through the hospitals rather than being credited to us. We are trying to change that to allow the university take credit for it.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

In other words, put a better face on it.

Dr. Cosgrove

Indeed.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

In terms of the Higher Education Authority and the niche market in education and in terms of anticipating future demands, we seem to be pursuing a fire brigade action. At one time we could not train enough people for the electronics and computer industry. Now we find that we are way behind in the science area and every day we pick up the paper we see we are years behind in anticipating health requirements. I know it has been said that you have nothing to do with orthodontics but anybody who sees our third level sector producing only 14 orthodontists in ten years must ask what is wrong. Why do we not ensure that we will have an adequate number of orthodontists or language, physio or radio-therapists? We are not meeting the needs of the market. That is the actuality today. Have we any system in place between the Department, the Higher Education Authority and the universities which can identify the major growth areas? We know health is a major growth area at the moment but we have not prepared for it.

Mr. McDonagh

There have been a number of developments in recent years in that regard. On the general industry and economic front, an expert schools group has been established which at the moment is chaired by Dr. Danny O'Hare. That group has produced three reports to date which specifically identify the need for additional output in a range of areas, mainly in the areas of ICT and biological sciences. The Department of Education and Science and the Higher Education Authority responded to each one of those reports. Its first report identified a need for an additional output of 5,400 in the IT hardware-software area and those places are being established. In order to achieve faster output in those areas we have expanded the post-graduate conversion courses. In the area of the health services, my understanding is that the Minster for Health and Children is establishing a health services skills group which will examine these areas and produce reports on the skills requirements. At the moment we are expanding on a preliminary basis in a number of areas and in the therapies, in particular, on the basis of information that has come our way and requests that have come the Department of Health and Children for increases in the areas of speech therapy, occupational therapy and physiotherapy. We have increased in those areas.

Ms McGarry

The Bacon study on the particular areas of therapy identified shortages and estimated the needs for the foreseeable future. An inter-agency group was established between ourselves, the Department of Health and Children and the Higher Education Authority as a response. The institutions were invited to submit proposals and we are finalising consideration of those. We hope that a report will issue to the Minister shortly.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

My point is that this is fire brigade action. The leap in time is four years. A school of pharmacy has been set up in UCC. We are now in the business of taking quotations relative to the therapies and that will take at least another four years. May I ask the Higher Education Authority what is happening in terms of the interim period whereby there is a lack of skills in the therapies area? Is the Department recruiting students who went to study abroad because there were no places available for them here? Are they being offered contracts on perhaps a three-year basis as a means of grant-aiding them? Is there anything in the short-term that can be done to provide qualified people over the next two years?

Mr. McDonagh

I repeat, Deputy, that the issue of recruitment to the health services is a matter for the Department of Health and Children. In the past number of years we have responded to what the expert skills group has indicated are the needs of the ICT industry and the biological sciences. In the same manner, on foot of the Bacon report, we have taken decisions in respect of pharmacy. We cannot create places unless we know there is a demand for them. We are relying on the responsible agencies in those areas to inform us of the requirements. In tandem with the Higher Education Authority and the institutes of technology we will set in train measures to secure Exchequer funding to do this and then to create the places. Similarly, as Deputy Durkan said about equine studies, what really needs to happen in that regard is for the people in the market place to identify whether there is a demand for this course. The first question we and the Higher Education Authority will ask is whether there is a sufficient demand to justify the establishment of the course and if that exists then we will set about doing it. If we did otherwise, the Comptroller and Auditor General might be visiting us and questioning the value for money.

Chairman

This must be the final question because I am conscious that officials from the Department of the Environment and Local Government are waiting outside. We have digressed into an interesting educational topic.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

If I may continue my digression?

Chairman

Just one final question.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

How relevant are some of the university courses to the needs of the general economy? What monitoring is done of the effectiveness of those courses? Are the same number of people required in the areas of arts, business and electronics, for instance?

Deputy Durkan

Another Bacon report.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Yes.

Mr. McDonagh

There is a record. The Higher Education Authority commissions a survey each year called the First Destinations report, which indicates by discipline what the record is in terms of graduates - whether they are seeking work or whether they have gone on to post-graduate study and the percentage of them who have secured employment. This study gives us valuable feedback in that regard.

Mr. Hayden

We have been producing that report for 20 years. In one way, Ireland is quite ahead of many other countries in Europe in terms of information on where qualified people go. It details not just university graduates but also graduates of the institutes of technology, colleges of education, for instance.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I have one final question for Dr. Cosgrove. There are significant drop-out and first year failure rates in the institutes of technology. What are the rates of drop-out and first year failure in UCD?

Dr. Hussey

The Higher Education Authority has recently completed a comprehensive study of all the universities in this respect. The rate of non-completion of the primary degree is 14%. That figure includes a number of students who voluntarily change course and complete a different degree.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

How many people does 14% represent?

Dr. Hussey

We admit about 3,500 students every year so the figure is about 400.

Dr. Cosgrove

That would not be a particularly high figure by international standards. The term "drop-out" is sometimes a bit confusing. If somebody leaves university voluntarily to take up employment or leaves to go to another college they can be classified as drop-outs but this would not necessarily be entirely accurate.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Are science subjects badly taught at second level and is the marking system far too stringent?

Dr. Cosgrove

I cannot speak about the marking system because I have no experience of it. I am always very wary of speaking about marking systems about which I am not expert. I think teachers vary in quality from place to place but there may well be a shortage of people with honours degrees in those subjects deciding to teach physics and chemistry. That could be a significant problem.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Does that mean that industry is swallowing up the honours graduates?

Dr. Cosgrove

It could.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Cosgrove and his officials and the officials of the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Education and Science for their contributions. I noted that Dr. Cosgrove was interested in the discussion on equine studies and he said that he has an interest in horses. Will you be travelling to Cheltenham, Dr. Cosgrove?

Dr. Cosgrove

I make great sacrifices for my university. I must go to the United States.

Chairman

Have you any tips for Cheltenham?

Dr. Cosgrove

None that I would dare offer in such a public forum.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 3.19 p.m. and resumed at 3.22 p.m.