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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 6 Mar 2008

VFM Report 56 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Improving Performance — Public Service Case Studies — Chapter 19.

Mr. D. McCarthy (Secretary General, Department of the Taoiseach),
Mr. C. Connolly (Secretary General, Public Service Management and Development, Department of Finance) and
Ms B. Lacey (Secretary General, Department of Social and Family Affairs) called and examined.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. As and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited to appear before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. McCarthy, Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I am accompanied by Mr. Colm Butler, director of the information society policy unit, Dr. Albert Jordan and Ms Aileen Healy, our personnel and finance officers.

I welcome Mr. Ciarán Connolly, Secretary General, public service management and development, Department of Finance. I ask him to introduce his colleague.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

I am accompanied by Mr. Jim Duffy from the organisation, management and training division of the Department.

I welcome Ms Bernadette Lacey, Secretary General at the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am accompanied by Mr. Niall Barry, head of our IS division, and Mr. Victor Galvin, principal officer in the Reach agency.

I ask Mr. Purcell to introduce Vote 2, Department of the Taoiseach; Value for Money Report 56 and Value for Money Report 58.

Mr. John Purcell

I will confine my opening comments to the substantive matter on the agenda, that is, the e-government report. The rapid advances that occurred in information and communications technology in the past couple of decades, particularly the emergence of widespread Internet use, have created many opportunities for the public sector to deliver services more quickly and conveniently to clients and to reduce costs, both for service users and taxpayers. Internationally, such developments have come to be called e-government.

While the potential benefits of ICT projects are considerable, the investment of resources and time required in developing such projects can also be substantial. This includes the cost of hardware, software and system design on the technology side but also typically involves considerable costs in managing projects and restructuring the way in which business is carried out. The technology costs are usually easy to identify but the internal costs can often be overlooked. Successful management of ICT projects and the associated risks are challenging and require constant attention and monitoring. In a number of previous reports I presented the findings of examinations that considered individual ICT projects in detail. By contrast, in this examination of e-government I wanted to consider more strategic issues that arose in the exploitation of ICT developments for public service delivery and to look generally at how we in Ireland were progressing in making the most of the available opportunities.

My examination considered progress on the proposed e-government initiatives and projects included in the two information society action plans, published in 1999 and 2002. They covered the period up to the end of 2005. Included was a project to develop a single point of access to all on-line public services which in time came to be called the public services broker. Many of the planned e-government projects were undertaken with the aim of allowing citizens and business users to carry out on-line transactions with public service providers. Some of these have been very successful such as the motor tax on-line service, the Revenue on-line service, the area aid applications system in agriculture and the Property Registration Authority site. Others are mentioned in the report. Most of the projects that focused on delivering on-line information were also delivered successfully, including e-tenders, citizens information and business information sites. Projects focusing on increasing the efficiency of internal Government processes such as e-cabinet, e-legislation and e-estimates have also been delivered successfully. Inevitably, not all of the proposed projects ended up being delivered. Those that did not progress as envisaged included applications for housing grants, passports, driving licences and haulage licences. For the most part, the requirement for stringent identity authentication on a case-by-case basis in these cases contributed to what one could call a lack of progress. Then again, there was the case of the national health portal, on which €2 million was spent to no avail, primarily because of a lack of strategic focus.

It is good to note that Ireland has some on-line transaction services that compare favourably with what has been achieved elsewhere. However, Ireland's overall position in international benchmarking surveys is around the average for EU member states; some states are delivering a significantly higher level of on-line service. For this reason, I state in the report that we need to keep looking at the experiences of other countries and learning from them what best might have application to Irish public services.

The overall investment in e-government has been considerable. In response to a questionnaire-based survey Departments and agencies reported that the estimated cost of e-government related projects undertaken or commenced in the period 2000 to 2005 would be around €420 million. This includes the estimate of the cost of completion of projects still in development. Many Departments and agencies reported having achieved efficiencies as a result of implementing e-government projects. In some organisations these claims are quantified and substantial but in others the claims of benefits achieved are not as well grounded. While significant value can be obtained through well planned e-government initiatives, a stronger management process is required for the delivery of e-government projects. For each project, a current performance baseline should be established, against which results can be measured. A stronger project cost performance measurement and reporting system is also required.

Let me consider the development of the public services broker which was given initial Government approval in May 2000. The original concept envisaged a single website that would link public services together and present them in ways that had meaning for website users, for example, grouping together services that someone needed in respect of life events such as the birth of a child or a change of address. Responsibility for developing the broker was assigned to the Reach agency, a unit that had previously been set up in the Department of Social and Family Affairs to develop an integrated social services system. The broker project moved through a succession of development phases, including software development and the construction of a system prototype. The planned project was reviewed in late 2002 in response to high tender amounts submitted by potential partners to build, deploy and operate the broker. A revised and less ambitious first phase was approved in May 2003, with development costs estimated at approximately €14 million. Delays in completing the project occurred for a variety of reasons which are set out in the report. The project was finally completed in December 2005. Reach's expenditure in the period 2000 to 2005 was of the order of €37 million, almost all of which was related to the broker. The ongoing costs of operating and maintaining the system are also substantial.

Although the broker does not operate in the way originally envisaged, it nevertheless has potential, if it is used. While only a small number of services are provided directly for the public through the broker, it successfully facilitates automated information exchange between public agencies. It also provides an on-line personal identity authentication facility which must be used by taxpayers who want to deal with their income tax accounts on the PAYE side on the Revenue on-line service website. While this process is somewhat cumbersome, it seems to be working successfully and is potentially capable of being extended to other public services. If the broker is to succeed and deliver value, other Departments and agencies will have to develop services that can use it in a cost-effective way. While my report was in preparation, a comprehensive review of Reach and the broker was announced. I understand this review has either been recently completed or is about to be completed. It will soon be presented to the Government.

The Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance played key roles in developing the overall vision for e-government and identifying opportunities for improving significantly the quality of public services. Departments and agencies proposed individual projects for inclusion in Government action plans. They were responsible for the delivery and achievement of the planned business objectives. In some areas of the public service, the opportunities afforded by new technologies to re-engineer business processes and satisfy customer needs were well-recognised and exploited. However, it appears that other public service providers may need more encouragement, support and incentives if opportunities to improve the quality of the services they provide through application of information and communications technology are to be availed of. Capacity issues and other barriers to progress will have to be addressed if potential improvements in the delivery of public services are to be more extensively realised.

While broad strategic objectives were identified for e-government, measurable targets were not set for these objectives. There is a case for a stronger central function for the future development of e-government, for instance, in enforcing robust reporting and monitoring of progress against realistic cost and time targets and in identifying and prioritising projects where the benefit will be greatest in terms of quality of service and/cost-savings. In this context, potential gains in the area of so-called cross-cutting projects have yet to be fully realised.

My review suggests that the momentum evident in the early years towards developing e-government appears to have faded. I note, however, the Department of the Taoiseach is working with other Departments and agencies on the development of a new strategy. This, together with the findings of the near-complete OECD review of public sector performance, should provide a sound basis for building on the substantial e-government achievements to date.

Thank you, Mr. Purcell. I invite Mr. Dermot McCarthy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to set out briefly the role of the Department of the Taoiseach in the development of e-government. I will address some of the key issues raised in this report in so far as they pertain to the responsibilities of the Department.

The Department of the Taoiseach, specifically the information society policy unit, was assigned a co-ordinating role for the Government action plan on the information society, New Connections. The plan set out the Government's policy on the key infrastructures of telecommunications, the legal and regulatory environment, and e-government and the supporting frameworks of e-business, research and development, lifelong learning and e-inclusion.

The policy objective in respect of e-government was to have all public services capable of electronic delivery available on-line through a single point of contact by 2005. This was to be facilitated by the public services broker, to be developed by the Reach agency. A range of services were listed to be prioritised and progressed on a basis consistent with the broker model. The delivery of specific projects and initiatives was, and remains, the responsibility of the various Departments and agencies concerned.

The e-cabinet project was the responsibility of the Department of the Taoiseach to deliver. I am happy to report it is operating very successfully, facilitating new efficiencies and cost savings. It was also delivered within budget.

The Department was also responsible for monitoring and reporting on progress under the action plan. An information society implementation group, at assistant secretary level, served as a network, whose purpose was to monitor progress against the objectives set out in the plan. This group recommended the establishment of the information society fund. The fund was administered by the Department of Finance and projects were evaluated by representatives from the Department of Finance and the Department of the Taoiseach. I was pleased to note in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report the fund was acknowledged to have made possible projects that otherwise would not have happened, that it facilitated the more expeditious delivery of some and the expansion of other projects and that it was well-managed.

The information society policy unit also co-ordinates Ireland's participation in the EU benchmarking exercise in on-line public service delivery. It does so by serving as a liaison between the consultants who conduct the benchmarking on behalf of the Commission, Capgemini, and the Departments and offices responsible for the relevant public services covered by benchmarking. The unit ensures each Department and office is aware of the methodology employed by the consultants and endeavours to ensure they provide the requisite information in a timely manner. It also monitors the emerging scores ensuring errors are identified and corrected, which has on occasion resulted in our score being revised upwards.

Other important aspects of the e-government agenda are the responsibility of the Departments of Finance, Social and Family Affairs and other Departments and agencies. For example, the Department of Finance is responsible for enterprise-level technical policy, provision of advice, guidance and assistance on certain technical aspects and evaluation of proposals from an overall value for money perspective. It was also responsible for the management of the information society fund.

More recently, the Department of Finance has taken responsibility for the management of the peer review system for large, complex or cross-cutting information and communications technology projects in the Civil Service and certain other areas. The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has responsibility for telecommunications infrastructure and broadband roll-out. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is responsible for the BASIS service, an information service for businesses, as well as the e-business strategy that seeks to optimise the usage of information and communications technology by small and medium-sized enterprises and microenterprises.

The Citizens Information Board is responsible for the provision of standardised information on services directed at citizens. The Local Government Computer Services Board is responsible for local authority e-government systems. Finally, the Reach agency under the Department of Social and Family Affairs is responsible for identity services and the public services broker.

The e-government agenda dates back to 1999. The policy objective of the first action plan was to create a new vision of service delivery including facilitating self-service and making many services available on-line on a 24-hour basis. There were also efficiency and modernisation benefits to be pursued.

The focus of that first action plan was to create an impetus towards those goals by encouraging separate streams of activities in as short a timescale as was possible. It was in this context that initiatives such as the Government virtual private network, GVPN, and the public services broker arose.

The second action plan — New Connections — published in 2002 was a more comprehensive and ambitious document, which sought to encourage progress on as wide a scale and to the maximum extent possible. It was not a detailed project plan in which one would expect to have specific targets, milestones and detailed costings. Its purpose, rather, was to encourage Departments to identify what they could achieve using technologies to produce improved outcomes. Departments identified key projects as priorities for themselves and these were included in New Connections as flagship projects to be prioritised and progressed over the period of the plan. It was for the relevant Departments, in the context of the development of the specific projects, to determine the detailed business case, project plans and costings.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report focuses on several specific areas including some that pertain to responsibilities of the Department or processes which it was involved.

Ireland has been very successful in delivering e-government projects. There have been significant improvements in services for our citizens. We see it in the value of cost savings annually arising from several key initiatives. We see it too in the new efficiencies many of these projects have made possible. For example, e-cabinet facilitates significant efficiencies across all Departments. I am happy to note such positive effects are noted by the report.

There have been some difficulties and challenges. Some projects took longer than expected but in each case for particular reasons which can be explained by the responsible Departments.

Making a real difference in service provision was our key objective. We have, in partnership with the other key stakeholders, delivered on this. There are many examples that could be cited. Less visible and less commented upon are a range of other successful projects which deserve to be recognised. These include: the transformation in the Public Appointments Service; the on-line services for farmers and agricultural stakeholders; the provision of on-line free information for citizens at single points of contact; on-line examination results; and many others.

There is better access to services for citizens, with many available on a 24-hour basis. The time it takes citizens to transact services is, in many cases, significantly reduced. For example, 125,000 hours are saved annually by citizens by using the facility for taxing a car on-line. New mothers can have child benefit paid automatically without having to apply, owing to the investment we have made in streamlining administrative services. It is possible for citizens to inspect maps, free of charge, on-line through the Property Registration Authority — and the evidence is that they are happy with these new facilities. A survey of motor tax on-line customers shows that all respondents were satisfied, or very satisfied, with the service being provided.

There has been progress in delivering value for money. There are headline examples such as the annual savings of approximately €25 million a year from the use of the Government virtual private network, or the €18.4 million savings by Revenue last year as a result of its on-line system, as well as savings that result for individual businesses and citizens using the services. Many projects are delivering significant value for money across the public service. Some of this is easy to quantify, some of it less so.

There was some surprise that the report showed a number of projects were "not progressed or abandoned". I recognise that the survey methodology employed by the consultants, by its nature, has certain limitations. When we inquired into this further, we discovered that the outturn was significantly more positive on a number of these projects, which were not abandoned and had progressed.

A number of the projects that did not progress to completion were dependent on a satisfactory solution to the issue of identity management and verification. This was the issue being addressed primarily by the Reach agency through the development of the public services broker. My colleagues may wish to comment on the issues dealt with in the report on this project, but I should simply observe at this point that in addition to some specific problems referred to in the report, we face a major challenge in operating an on-line identity management system compared to many of our European partners who have long had a system of population registration. This is at the heart of our relative decline in the EU benchmarking measures.

A further consideration in the pace of project development was low levels of citizen engagement or interest in on-line transactions with the public service. A customer survey we commissioned in 2003 found that only 1% of respondents had used on-line communication in their dealings with the Civil Service. By 2006 a survey found that 20% had used e-mail, and 12.5% the Internet to contact the public service. The perceived convenience of these channels had doubled over the period, but at levels well below telephone and written communication.

On other issues raised in the report, I am sure my colleagues will welcome the opportunity to address the perceived cost overruns and put these into context. The issues on occasion reflected additional costs incurred because projects were expanded to deliver more than was envisaged in the original concept. Although we have had significant successes, much clearly remains to be done. While further achievement will improve Ireland's performance in the international benchmarking exercise, this is not our primary motivation. Our aim is to achieve outcomes that more adequately deal with the needs of citizens and provide better value for taxpayers.

In that context I welcome the positive recommendations in the report. Many of them are closely aligned with actions that have already been taken, such as, for example, the introduction of stronger project governance measures put in place by Government, particularly the peer review of larger projects. My colleagues may wish to comment today on other specific recommendations in the report. From the perspective of my Department I can see merit in a number of the recommendations relating to the broader e-government agenda as we move forward.

The report recommends that our focus should not be technology led, but based on customer and business outcomes. I strongly agree and this is the approach we have adopted in framing the forthcoming third action plan, which focuses on major processes based on their potential to provide value. I also agree it is appropriate to set more specific and measurable targets and to formally assign responsibility for the achievements of goals in this project management process.

My Department has prepared a new knowledge society action plan in consultation with all Departments. It was decided to defer its submission to Government so as to avail of the opportunity to have regard to the recommendations of the OECD review of the Irish public service, to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred, and which is nearing completion. At our request it contains a specific treatment of e-government issues. We also wanted to take into account our consideration of this report from the Comptroller and Auditor General. This new plan will focus on what our priorities need to be now, and will, we hope, set the agenda for further progress.

Apart from the internal re-engineering of processes to achieve greater efficiency leveraging technology, the rapid increases over the past two years in broadband penetration and the projects for further development in the near term, create a very positive environment for engagement with citizens and businesses through on-line channels. In that context we look forward to development which will benefit from the conclusions and recommendations in this report.

Do we agree to publish the Secretary General's submission?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Yes.

I welcome the Secretary General and other representatives who have come before the committee this morning. Looking back on the record of the public service in the whole area of developing technology over the years, one tends to lack confidence in its ability to deliver. In his contribution this morning, the Secretary General went into some detail on the on-line service for motor taxation. This has been an enormous success and credit should be given where it is due. However, he glossed over some of the inadequacies that have persisted.

He also said we have been largely successful in what we set out to do. An EU benchmarking survey highlighted that in only ten out of 22 areas for individual and business users had we reached the levels we should be at. In 2002 we set out to have all public services on-line by 2005. That was totally unrealistic and it is now being suggested that the target date should be 2012. Given everything that has happened, how can we have confidence — bearing in mind PPARS, the health portal and the number of projects abandoned — that the public service has the ability to deliver in this area?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Perhaps I should make a point about the benchmarking exercise and what one might infer from it. We put significant effort into achieving high outcomes for Ireland in the measurement, in terms of the low hanging fruit, and it was sensible to try to do that. We are not alone in finding it difficult to maintain those high rankings with the current approach to what is being benchmarked. For example, Finland was second to us in the first benchmarking report. It is now 13th in the ranking. Denmark was fifth and it is now 15th. So a number of countries have experienced difficulty in meeting the changed standards being used in the benchmarking.

I mentioned in particular the problem of identity management in my opening remarks. That is the critical issue. As members will be aware from private sector as well as public sector contexts, the question of identity management, identity protection and validation is of critical concern. In other societies that have operated population registers since the time of Napoleon, there is infrastructure to support the maintenance of accuracy in this regard. They found it easier to migrate to on-line population registers, which helped to manage that identity problem. It is at the heart of the public services broker concept and it is a tricky issue to handle satisfactorily.

The broker concept has advanced substantially through the work of the Reach agency and we are in sight of solutions. However, it was a more difficult situation than perhaps was originally anticipated. It was made more difficult by the changing international security environment and obviously with increased rates of cross-border migration in Europe, it has become a more complex issue.

On a more positive note, there are other international benchmarks besides that published by the European Commission. Accenture has significant credibility in this area and it placed Ireland 16th in its international rankings in 2000, but we improved to 11th place by 2007. Apart from the international benchmarks, if we look across the range of public services and their functions, there have been significant developments that were successfully implemented broadly within budget. Apart from the motor tax office, citizens can deal on-line with Revenue, the Land Registry, with planning applications and the small claims court. Services for farmers, such as the submission of returns and the making of payments, have been transformed as a result of the successful development of ICT. We have a significant level of connectivity in schools as a result of the schools broadband initiative. In those areas where the citizen engages with the State, we have seen successful large scale and small scale projects delivered on time and within budget.

All this is in marked contrast to some of our European partners, where issues such as the introduction of the single payment system for farmers have produced major problems. There was a complete failure in Britain to develop a passport tracking system which currently operates successfully here. While there have been difficulties, a balanced scorecard would suggest that there is capacity and it has been successfully deployed.

The broker project was first approved by the Government in 2000. There was no timetable or budget and two years later, the Department had to initiate a review. The review was agreed in 2003, with an agreement that it be completed in August 2004 for €14 million. It was completed in December 2005 at a cost of €37 million. How could a project be initiated in 2000 with no budget or timetable? We can go into the specifics of different programmes later.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The broker concept was visionary and it is still regarded as such, given what is emerging from the OECD review. It represents a gold standard of integrated service delivery. It was right to aspire to achieve it. It was clearly going to require a significant development effort, which was put in place following a mandate to the Reach agency to undertake it. The fact that there were no time lines or defined budget at that initial stage was precisely because this was regarded as a developmental project. This was a concept that had to be developed and tested, and then put into operation. It would have been wrong not to have attempted in an ambitious way to fast track something which has a transformational potential. The fact that there were difficulties in realising that ambition does not take from the validity of the decision to pursue it.

With regard to the difficulties that arose——

The Department had neither a budget nor a timetable in 2000. In 2002, it set targets and a budget, but it fell short in its timetable and the cost went up by two and a half times the original estimate.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It is my understanding that the cost was not that high, but Ms Lacey might like to comment on that. There are some issues about the basis of the comparison in the report.

It went from €14 million to €37 million.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Not on a like for like basis.

Perhaps the Secretary General might like to flesh that out. There was no planning.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The original proposal was pretty visionary and it was difficult to estimate either times or costs. It was the type of project that had never been undertaken in the Civil Service before, nor had it been undertaken in many other places either. Had we not taken that approach at the time, we would not have made the progress we have made to date. The estimate of €14 million to €18 million was for the design and build of the broker, whereas the outturn figure relates to all of the activities of the broker over the six years. Several products were delivered over that period, which were over and above the basic design and build cost. The €37 million cost is not exactly related to the €14 million estimate. It incorporates the €14 million, but there were other factors as well.

It was two years, not six years.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I was taking the date from 1999 to 2005.

The estimate was made in 2003.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

In 2003 we went to the market for consultancy support to design and build this. One of the factors that came to the fore was that this was far greater and more complex than had been anticipated. The project was going to go across public sector groups. It was to be designed so that it would be open and flexible in a way that we would not normally have with a single project approach. When we went to the market, the figures that came back from the consultants were much higher than anticipated. Therefore, the costs were higher than anticipated. It involved a series of negotiations with the various companies over time to come to the best contract for the project. It was not something that could have been foreseen.

Mr. McCarthy mentioned that Finland and Denmark have been slipping down the table. Ireland has been slipping as well. We have slipped down the EU table as well. If we are going down, somebody else is going up. We are falling behind. We are well down the league with regard to broadband. There appears to be major problems in the technology area.

Mr. McCarthy also mentioned in his presentation that savings had been made in a couple of places. Can he expand on that? Have savings been made in other Departments? Is it possible to quantify what they are? If we are making substantial savings in other areas, that will justify the expenditure elsewhere.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It is relatively straightforward to quantify savings in some aspects of technology applications and less so in other aspects. Among those that we examined, I mentioned use of the virtual private network across the Government, which is estimated to save approximately €25 million per year. The Revenue estimated efficiency savings of €18.5 million last year through the use of the ROS system. The system for motor tax is saving about €1 million per year. The animal health system in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has saved about €3.5 million per year. The civil registration modernisation programme has saved about €1 million.

In other cases it is more difficult to quantify savings, as the benefits are shared over a large number of relatively small benefits. For example, the e-cabinet system in my Department has produced some modest staff savings and significant paper savings but the primary benefit is in terms of greater efficiency across all Departments in terms of the handling of Government paper and the issuing of Government decisions. It is very difficult to quantify the value of those savings or benefits but they are substantial. Our general approach — my colleagues in the Department of Finance might wish to comment on this — is to seek to have robust estimates of value. Value is not always capable of being translated into a firm cash equivalent but in some cases this is possible. Where it is, it is done.

There is nothing wrong with the concept and, by Mr. McCarthy's admission, it probably was not properly researched at the beginning. The Reach agency was probably a handy vehicle in that it was already available. Does Mr. McCarthy agree that at the time Reach was not properly equipped or resourced to do this? From the beginning, it was in trouble because it did not have the capability to do what we expected it to do. Who is now in charge of it? It comes under Mr. McCarthy's Department but he obviously does not have day to day involvement with it. Mr. McCarthy referred to the information society policy unit in the Department of Finance. Does somebody in that Department have responsibility for this on a daily basis as it covers a wide range of Departments?

In that regard, there is a memorandum of understanding between Reach and the various Departments. Is that effective? Is the Department of the Taoiseach getting support and co-operation from other Departments or are they refusing to engage with this? If they are refusing to engage, what ability or powers has the Department of the Taoiseach to compel them to become part of this?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The Reach agency is a body under the Department of Social and Family Affairs so the responsibilities in terms of direct oversight would rest with that Department. The Government has decided, on foot of the review to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred, that responsibility for it should transfer to the Department of Finance for its further development. In terms of its capacity and resourcing to date, I will ask Ms Lacey to comment.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Reach was set up as an agency within the Department to develop a proposal on integrated social security services which had been brought forward during the 1990s. At the time when the concept of the broker came to the fore, Reach seemed to be a suitable vehicle for driving this forward, partly because the Department has a very good reputation for delivering on IT services, and because the nature of the work that it has tended to undertake appeared to support the broker at that stage.

The governance was complex because Reach was headed by an assistant secretary director of my Department but there was also a board comprised initially of a very wide range of Departments because the initial proposal was to address issues for a wide range of Departments. That became too cumbersome and complex and after the first review the board was slimmed down to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance, which set out the broad agenda of Reach.

Responsibility for the day to day management and financing of Reach fell within the Department. That board remained in place until the middle of last year when it was reconstituted because it had reached a certain stage in its delivery, having delivered the support for the Revenue on-line service, ROS, and so on. That review restructured the board to bring in other Departments and the Department of Finance and the Department of the Taoiseach stepped back from it. In the past six months, a review of the overall process in regard to Reach was undertaken and, as Mr. McCarthy said, the decision has now been taken that Reach would for the next phase of its development, best sit within the central Department.

On the benefits arising from Reach, while there seems to be a perception that this was a development that perhaps did not have the outcomes it should have had, quite a number of benefits were achieved. First, the online identity was progressed to a level where the person is authenticated up to the level of their individual information such as name, date of birth, PPS number and so on, which supports the Revenue PAYE online service, and this was completed in 2005. Other issues around identity are much broader and relate to how we want to manage identity policy as a nation. Reach is in a position to move forward when that is completed.

With regard to Revenue and agriculture, EU refunds worth €29 million were transacted last year through the broker. On the automatic payment of child benefit, which was raised previously, 60,000 births were registered automatically and that information when passed on to the Department of Social and Family Affairs resulted in savings of 27 staff at the time and has also provided savings for other areas.

On the death event notices, some 40 agencies are using those notices at present. I do not have the figures for what kind of savings would have arisen but in the health service area, in regard to medical cards, it was able to identify situations where the patient had died and the capitation payments could be stopped more quickly. Information was also passed on to my Department in regard to people claiming on social welfare schemes so that the payment ceased within days of the notification. It goes on to a number of other public service agencies which are also making payments and paying pensions so that these can be stopped.

There is an ongoing programme with the Courts Service with regard to automation of court outcomes——

Excuse me for interrupting. I do not want to get bogged down in these matters. That is not the question I asked.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am sorry. I was referring to the earlier question where the Deputy had asked about the benefits in regard to consultancies.

I did not ask about consultancies.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I meant e-government.

That was earlier. I have moved on. I do not want to take up time going into all these matters. I asked about the memorandum of understanding and the co-operation from other Departments.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The memorandum of understanding relates to the arrangement between our Department and, say, Revenue or the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in terms of the service that would be provided. I will ask Mr. Barry to address that.

Before we move on, Mr. McCarthy said that Reach would be the agency to implement the programme. Was any assessment carried out of Reach's capabilities to deliver the programme before responsibility was passed to it? We could go in circles all day in this regard.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Clearly, the activity of developing the broker was a new task and the question was where that would most suitably be placed to be developed, not that there was necessarily, on day one, the capacity to simply develop it based on existing activity. It was to be a new project and the judgment made following cross-departmental discussion was that the Reach agency, because it was associated with the Department which was closest to the management of identity across the population as whole through the issue of PPS numbers and the strong IT capacity within that Department, was the appropriate platform on which to develop the capacity both by assigning new staff — staff were assigned from across the system — and securing external consultancy support as needed. Reach was identified as the appropriate platform on which to build the capacity to deal with the issues, and that is the basis on which it proceeded, as we have heard.

Both the citizens' information website and the public services broker website, which was developed as the Reach services website, are under the aegis of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. There is a significant degree of information duplication between the two sites which may represent a waste of money. Why are two websites required when both provide practically the same service?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I ask my colleague, Mr. Galvin, to respond to the Deputy's question.

Mr. Victor Galvin

The answer to that question is historical to some extent in that the Comhairle organisation was set up to establish a certain information provision for citizens in the area of social security. After that, the BASIS website and information service was established by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to service business needs. When the Reach project was proposed, there was no overarching information provision for the entire range of public services. One of first tasks of this project was to conduct an audit of the services provided in co-operation with the Department of the Taoiseach. It made great sense, given the provision for the public services broker as a single point of contact, that citizens should be able to access information on all public services and use this single site to access those services, conduct transactions and get closure. That was the vision.

However, other sites had already been developed and the challenge was to amalgamate and co-ordinate these information provision sites into a single site. Rather than representing an overlap, the information Reach provides was to be complementary to the other sites. Moreover, it is of a slightly different nature in that it provides instructions and information on how to access particular services. There is no reason that there should be a separate provision of that information. It is a job for the future to consider how it might be consolidated into a more seamless presentation for citizens.

Does Mr. Galvin envisage a situation in the future where the citizens information website might be shut down and all the information made available on the Reach site?

Mr. Victor Galvin

This was one of the issues examined as part of the recent review of the Reach programme by an interdepartmental board of experts, which recommended that the Reach website be closed down. As part of that, one would expect its content to migrate to other sites.

The plan is that it should all eventually end up on one site?

Mr. Victor Galvin

Yes, one would expect the information provision to be co-ordinated in future.

That makes sense. Before setting up the Reach project, did the relevant Department examine international models before commencing work? Mr. Frank Daly, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, attended a meeting of the committee and spoke to us about how successful the Revenue on-line service has proved. That design has been patented. The French, for instance, paid the Revenue for the right to use part of its on-line model. In regard to the public services broker project, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, did we examine other models internationally and seek to put in place something that is already working well in another jurisdiction?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I ask my colleague, Mr. Colm Butler, who was heavily involved in the development of the project, to respond.

Mr. Colm Butler

When work was initiated on the concept of a public services broker, we looked abroad to see whether any similar models were in operation elsewhere. However, we could not find a directly comparable model. We worked out a concept based on currently available technology and technology we expected to emerge in the following years. This concept was approved by the Government. Since then, other countries have come to us seeking to explore the concept and some have adopted all, or part of, our model.

When will the new e-government strategy be put in place? The last formal strategy was launched in 2005. Has there been any review of performance against the four stated objectives set out in the new connections action plan?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I anticipate that we will submit a finalised version of the next action plan to the Government within the next three to four months. The final element of that drafting will take account of the OECD recommendations, which I expect will include some specific recommendations in the e-government area. We should be in a position to submit the plan to the Government for consideration by mid-summer. This will include a review of progress under the new connections action plan across the various dimensions and e-government was one of the pillars of the action plan. A review of all that material will be included and published.

Mr. McCarthy said the Department will submit proposals in the coming months. Does he agree that the entire project is currently rudderless? Why was the programme submitted without any timetable or budget in 2000? I understood there are Department of Finance guidelines for capital projects that must be complied with. In not including timetables and budgets, did the Department break its own guidelines?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

No. As I indicated in my opening remarks, the action plan was not a project plan. Rather, it identified both the broker and a range of other flagship projects that would be progressed and prioritised in the lifetime of the action plan. Progressing these included developing individual project plans with costings, timetables and external reviews. No project guidelines were breached. The action plan was a statement of policy intent with a set of priorities which were to be progressed as appropriate. That was done. The guidelines in terms of capital investment were applicable as the business case for each of the specific projects emerged and developed.

In terms of the overall approach, we sought to identify——

I apologise for interrupting. The Secretary General said that the Department did not breach its own guidelines. However, when the review took place two years later, in 2000, the budget had grown from €14 million to €37 million. Did the Secretary General's Department and the Department of Finance monitor this massive overrun? Why did the Secretary General not intervene?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

There were several elements of external oversight of the project as it developed. In the first instance, the Department of Social and Family Affairs was the responsible Department. There was also the advisory board in which my Department and the Department of Finance participated and which sought to guide and react to issues as they developed. In addition, more formal monitoring took place through the implementation group at assistant secretary level across a range of interested Departments, which monitored all aspects of the action plan, including Reach.

It is true to state the issues regarding capacity and cost, as well as the outcomes of the various stages of development, were monitored and responded to as appropriate as the programme progressed. Such mechanisms were operating at the time.

However, they were not effective.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

As for the cost issues, Ms Lacey has commented on the context in which cost increases relative to the anticipated project development costs arose. As the comparison in the report includes operating costs in addition to the development costs, the escalation may not be as suggested in the table in the report.

I refer to the eight on-line citizen-focused priority projects, only one of which has been implemented in full, namely, the highly successful motor tax project. The other projects pertained to local authority housing, planning applications and court files which have been partially implemented or are in progress, as well as to driving licences, passports, birth, marriage and death certificates and the electoral register, all of which have been abandoned. What is the position on the partially implemented projects? Has progress been made in the meantime? As for the abandoned projects such as those relating to driving licences and passports, I realise certain security related difficulties arose. I understand, however, that other European countries have mechanisms for carrying out such functions.

The electoral register is a matter in which all members have an enormous interest because of the recent debacle regarding its compilation. I refer to the system now in place in the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Can it be used in some fashion to help compile the electoral register? It probably contains more up-to-date information on individuals than is available to any other Department. While obviously the most sensible approach would be to use the census, this cannot be done because of the Constitution. Can one not use the system that has been developed in the Department of Social and Family Affairs?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

While I am not really qualified to comment on the technical aspects, I refer to the obvious concerns expressed periodically regarding the accuracy of the electoral register, which pertain less to the names of electors than to where they are living. The accuracy of the register which obviously is geographically specific will not be helped much by a system that, in the social welfare context, deals only with the basic demographic information, not with the current address. I am unsure whether there is huge potential to solve the register problem from the social welfare context. Perhaps my colleagues would like to comment.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

An Oireachtas joint committee is considering how the electoral roll can be improved and what role the Department of Social and Family Affairs can play in this regard. Currently, the death events programme to which I referred is being used by a number of local authorities to clean up their registers by identifying people who have passed away, whose names are then removed from their rolls. While an initial process has started, the decision of the Oireachtas joint committee and subsequently the Government will decide what can be used.

In Ms Lacey's view, would it be feasible to do this?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is a little like when we started the broker project. Such projects always sound feasible at a high level until one begins to examine the detail and ascertain the requirements of different organisations. However, the technology to exchange information between organisations is available and this issue was mentioned by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We have built the platform and must see what other organisations will use it as a mechanism for conducting their business.

Mr. McCarthy should comment on the other aforementioned projects that have been partially implemented or abandoned.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

A number have been delivered, albeit not the most dramatically significant in every case. I refer, for example, to an on-line single catalogue for public library holdings and so on. However, a commercial rates payment facility for local authorities has been completed. In some cases, a policy decision has been made not to proceed because of the difficulties of certification and the identity question. Consequently, the aforementioned on-line passport application, electoral register and driving licence application projects will not proceed until the identity management issue is resolved. Obviously, they are under examination. As stated, the health portal was definitively abandoned because of a decision that it would not deliver the originally anticipated benefits.

A couple of projects have been delayed because of staff relocation and the decentralisation programme but will catch up. I refer to the projects regarding road haulage licences and on-line applications for Gaeltacht grants. Other policy changes have had an impact on the student grant project which presumably will resume progress now that decisions on the single administration of student grants have been taken. Public transport real-time information is related to the role of the Dublin transport authority, in particular. Consequently, in relatively few projects has there been a decision to abandon or definitively halt. In other cases, progress has been slower than we would have wished.

I wish to ask a final question and will move away from e-government. I refer to the Vote for the Department of the Taoiseach. When I saw the heading, "Tribunal of Inquiry", I thought I would be able to ask a few questions about the Mahon tribunal. I then realised, however, that the heading did not pertain to that tribunal which is not within that Department's remit but to the Moriarty tribunal. Have all the costs associated with that tribunal been quantified? This question obviously is also pertinent to the Mahon tribunal. The public sector accounting method means that although on consideration of these figures, one might think the Department had been under budget for 2005 and 2006, obviously it shot over budget in 2007. The Exchequer will take a huge hit in a single year, although it will not be as significant in this case as it will be with the Mahon tribunal. An accrual procedure should have been used to even out this issue. What is the final outturn in this regard? Are the associated costs known?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Unfortunately not, because this is a highly contingent liability. The crucial variable is the availability of third party costs, a matter to be determined by the chairman of the tribunal upon completion of its report. In the last couple of years we have included a somewhat prudent provision in the Estimate in anticipation that the report might be concluded and the claim process might get under way. While this has not yet happened, I hope it will do so in the current year. That is the difficulty. It is not a matter of being able to assess the actual costs being incurred but a question of not being able to know whether payment of third party costs will be allowed. That is solely a matter for the tribunal.

I welcome the witnesses. To date I have found the atmosphere and proceedings to be somewhat disappointing because the Comptroller and Auditor General has compiled a highly comprehensive report and I have not detected any willingness to engage with the criticisms contained therein. I have heard a defensive justification for what has gone wrong in this regard. It would be more helpful generally if there were to be an up-front engagement with the criticisms made. I am quite sceptical when I hear a senior civil servant using the terms "gold standard" and "visionary" to defend something which has turned out to be very disappointing, which could be described as a failure and which has very much overrun its budget. Those kind of terms do not normally cut much ice with the Department of Finance when it comes to securing funding for projects such as this. When the Chairman asked how it was that a proposal such as this was brought to Government in 2000, Mr. McCarthy said it was a project plan rather than an action plan. Can Mr. McCarthy inform the committee when it changed from being a project plan to an action plan that would require budgets to be attached to it?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

In my opening remarks, I made it clear that I welcomed a number of recommendations in the report and acknowledged that there were problems in the implementation of the action plan, as the report outlined. I am sorry if the impression has formed that one is being defensive. We are here in the spirit of helping the committee by explaining the context within which the action plan was being implemented.

The action plan was submitted to Government and adopted as a statement of its strategic approach in this area. The project plan level of specification about costs and timescales was appropriate to the individual elements of that strategic approach, which were under the responsibility of the individual Departments and agencies. That was the context in which it was developed.

We had and have an objective of being very much a knowledge-based society and it is important that the public service plays its part in that. It was put forward as an ambitious target. I use the word "visionary" because that is the word applied by the OECD in its review of the project in its forthcoming report. As we have heard, there was no comparable model operating in any of our European partners. It would have been possible to have decided not to embark on such a project and to take a more incremental approach. The Government decided it was right to put forward that ambitious target, both in terms of the concept and the date of 2005. It was not possible to achieve that target in terms of the date. There have been technical and policy issues which have limited the application of the full public services broker model. As we have heard, the basic infrastructure is in place. That potential exists. The concept of integrated citizen-centred delivery is very much relevant and continues to be a priority framework.

Was a cost-benefit analysis carried out in respect of the public services broker project? At what point was a budget and a timeframe for its delivery drawn up?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

My colleagues might be able to answer that question.

I thought the Department of the Taoiseach was the lead Department in this.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

We were not the lead Department in respect of the management of the Reach agency.

Who is the lead Department in respect of the broker project?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The Department of Social and Family Affairs is the lead Department.

Is this not an initiative of Department of the Taoiseach?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It was a Government initiative in terms of the action plan but the Reach agency was an agency of the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

I know that but who made the decision to give the broker project to the Reach unit?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It was a Government decision in the action plan.

Was a cost-benefit analysis of that carried out?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It was not carried out in respect of the decision to assign responsibility but decisions in terms of the budget for the Reach agency and the development of the broker by the agency were taken by the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

I find that hard to follow. One had the Reach unit within the Department of Social and Family Affairs but where was the decision taken to give the broker project to that unit?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

That was a Government decision in the context of adapting the action plan.

What was that based on?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

As I mentioned earlier, it was based on the view that the Reach agency and the Department of Social and Family Affairs had the closest fit in terms of existing competencies.

Whose view is that? Who took that decision and who assessed the capability of the Reach unit?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The action plan was prepared on a cross-departmental basis so, as I recall, it was a consensus view that this was the appropriate location. However, it was a Government decision.

At what point were a budget and timeframe decided for that project?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

My colleagues might be better able to provide the details.

Surely it was the cross-departmental group that decided that.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

No, the funding of the agency and the timescale within which that was done was carried out by the parent Department.

Who is managing the project?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The Reach agency under the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Perhaps Ms Lacey can reply to that.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I will try to explain it. I appreciate that this is difficult to understand in hindsight. When the concept of the broker was given to the Reach agency, an action plan for a project was drawn up and a budget of €14 million for the design and development of the broker was agreed. There was an understanding within the agency all along that this was not sufficient to deliver the broker. The arrangement was that as the situation became clearer, the agency, through the Department, would go back to the Department of Finance and negotiate further funding and budgets.

When we originally went to the market looking for support to develop the broker, the concept turned out to be much more complex than we originally thought. I think about 28 different organisations submitted proposals to design and build this but it was quite clear that what was involved was much greater than was originally conceived. After some consideration of the proposals, the number was reduced to six organisations with whom negotiation took place. One consultancy company, Bearing Point, was chosen to deliver it.

Who was responsible for that selection?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

A sub-group was set up to examine all of the proposals to follow the normal——

Was this a sub-group within the Department of Social and Family Affairs?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, it was the Secretaries General group which was part of the steering committee. It would seem that the three——

It is very difficult to establish where responsibility for this project lies.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I appreciate that.

It has been batted back and forth.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Looking at it in hindsight, it is very clear that this was very different from anything that was tried before. It was trying to develop something that would cross all Departments.

I appreciate that but there still must be controls.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There is an issue that must be addressed. This issue possibly is being addressed by the fact that the Reach agency is now being brought into the centre. Budgets, as applied to Departments in silos, are not based on the contribution from or to each Department involved, making the matter complex. The Reach agency's management developed the programme of work. An overall budget was not agreed, but the agency reverted to the Department of Finance at certain stages with proposals for different phases of the project and funding was subsequently supplied. This is my understanding of the process, but I am unsure whether the representatives of the Department of Finance would agree.

At what point did the Department of Finance become aware of the project running over budget and what interventions were made?

Mr. Jim Duffy

I will set the scene. We are referring to it as having always been a project, but it did not begin as such. Rather, it began as a concept. In the early stages when its staff primarily comprised civil servants, Reach's primary purpose was to determine the concept. This process, which involved determining what e-government should be and what might be in demand, continued for a reasonable time until 2002. The funding of that phase came about as a result of detailed discussions between the agency's director and me in the Department of Finance, as I had the central responsibility for determining prices in terms of information technology.

In 2003 and as a result of much work done by Reach and a cross-departmental group — it was called a board, but it was a consultative group — a large specification was drawn up to allow the concept to become a project. The only way to determine a project's cost is to submit it to the market. At the time, it was clear to all those involved, be they in the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Department of the Taoiseach or the Department of Finance, that this was an unusual project in terms of its elements. Typically when we decide on the price of something, we have experience of a previous or rough analogue, but there were no analogues in this instance. The only analogues in any shape or form were those in the private sector among emerging e-commerce giants such as Amazon, etc.

As there was so much that was unknown about the project, it was the only time we allowed a Department to use a negotiated procedure in an information and communications technology project — we do not like people doing so — thereby allowing marketing to help fill holes in our understanding of how the project might be built, what it might contain and how practicable certain aspects would be. It is not that the Civil Service got involved in an unusual project because it was a nice thing to do. The broker is necessary infrastructure. If it did not exist, it would need to be invented. This is not to say we would be unable to get better value in future through further usage, reducing costs, etc. That it needed to be invented was known in 2003. Only from then onwards were budgets begun to be set on project bases.

Three Departments were on the formal project board. It was a difficult project to deliver, as evident in how it took longer than expected and in how we made more change requests than was the norm. It is clear that the contractor did not expect the project to take so long because it encountered unanticipated difficulties.

I thank Mr. Duffy. I could accept his response if the target had been met by 2008. If, as he stated, the Department of Finance was flying blind until 2003, how could the Government have set a target the previous year of having all public services available on-line? It seems as if it did not know what it was proposing.

Taking the target set by the Government in 2002 as the yardstick, it is fair to state that we have failed dismally to meet it. Six years later, only a handful of services are available on-line. While information is available, I agree that better and more accessible information is available on other State-funded websites. The Citizens Information Board is a case in point. I do not know whether the CIB advertises its information more, but there is little awareness of the Reach website. What is its usage compared with the CIB website which receives approximately 2.5 million hits per year? What are the hits on the Reach website?

Mr. Victor Galvin

I have done a comparison between the month of January in 2006, 2007 and 2008. The total number of page views in 2006, the January after the broker infrastructure went live, was 48,780. In January 2007, the number had increased to nearly 578,000 and, in January 2008, the number was 1.1 million. This year, the average page views per day is almost 36,000.

That compares with 2.5 million hits on the CIB website.

Mr. Victor Galvin

It has been around for longer than the broker website. It is clear from my figures that there has been a radical increase year on year.

There seems to be incredible duplication in access to reliable on-line information, with both websites funded by the same Department. I cannot understand it.

While the target set in 2002 was to be able to do one's business on-line, few transactions can be conducted in that fashion currently. Mr. McCarthy drew attention to the issue of identity management, but the lack of an identity system in Ireland, unlike in most other European countries, was known of before the project was embarked upon. What proposals were there to overcome this difficulty at the beginning of the project?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

In a sense, this was the kernel of the challenge, to find and develop a basis on which the identity issue could be addressed. The broker was to be the mechanism for the service, a streamlined method of authenticating the identities of those seeking to do business on-line. The appropriate level of authentication for some forms of transaction is low. For example, who pays motor tax does not matter significantly as long as it is paid in respect of the appropriate vehicle, but other transactions matter more. That was the issue — leveraging the information about citizens already available in the Department of Social and Family Affairs through the PPSN operation to develop a streamlined resource that would solve the identity problem for the system as a whole. In a technical sense, that has been done but it is operating in a way that requires further development to be more user-friendly.

Six years later, what has the Secretary General learned from that and what are his proposals to overcome that difficulty?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

My colleague Jim Duffy could give a better answer.

Mr. Jim Duffy

When it became evident that this was a major problem in the State, and probably in the UK, CMOD in the Department of Finance carried out an internal study on possible ways forward. We wished to complement what the broker was doing to add other options. One of the projects financed from the information society fund was one that enabled the drug refund scheme to be put in place by what was then called GMS, now called PCRS, where we encouraged them to use technology to aggregate information from across the health system to improve matching addresses. An agency such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs may not have my current address because I am not a major user of their services. The Revenue Commissioners have my current address because of the need to be tax compliant. We wanted to develop a register for re-use across the system as a result of that technology. It is clear that it is working in the HSE, has improved the matching and is giving better results. It is not working at 100% but it is better than relying on a single source of information.

Our proposal to carry out a small-scale experiment to aggregate identity information only from a number of sources is now being considered inter-departmentally. This will be used to provide other identity options in the Reach context. A future development would be the provision of more identity options. Other options include helping electoral registrars to identify potentially useful areas to check. That proposal will be put to Government in the near future if this consultation process is completed successfully.

Nothing that was raised is new. The difficulties with operating e-government fully, whereby people can conduct transactions, were known in 2000 and 2002. I can see no evidence of progress in overcoming these difficulties regarding identity authentication. The logical conclusion is to develop a national identification system. Are recommendations being made to Government in this regard?

Mr. Jim Duffy

One of the major problems to be addressed is the data protection issue. The data protection issue becomes worse the more information is aggregated. Recent evidence of that has been widespread in the UK. A major part of the study was to come up with technology proposals that could selectively hide information in various contexts to ensure that data protection rights of the individual were respected where the information was being used in agencies. If it is acceptable to aggregate identity information and ignore data protection, it is simply an aggregation exercise. If we take account of data protection issues, it is a difficult issue to address. It is one of the major topics on certain areas of the Internet to come up with solutions for the problem. It extends to public services in Europe, Australia and Canada and private sector companies in those areas.

In the US there is a different culture of information sharing. There is almost no privacy and one's information is a public commodity. The Deputy's question on national identity cards is a policy question to which I cannot give an answer.

It is not just a policy question. Having considered these issues over several years, and having spent quite an amount of money, the group must have come to some conclusion on how to overcome these issues. Will we just abandon the objective of on-line services and transactions being made available? If we are to proceed with this project we must identify the obstacles and what needs to change. Which will we do?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

What is emerging, on reflection, is that the idea of a single model that would integrate everything — the concept of the broker, a standardised mechanism that all Departments and agencies could use to validate identity — is not realistic because of the different levels of security and authentication and the issues of data protection to which Mr. Duffy has referred. We have a framework that is different but which has the same essential features. I am not technically qualified to say what that might look like or how it might operate but an efficient inter-agency messaging system has emerged out of the broker concept. This enables information to be shared in an immediately useful way by different agencies. We have heard reference to the fact that birth and death registration is now communicated automatically to those who may wish to act on the information. That architecture will be applied as the enhancement to which the Deputy referred in terms of information on current address from a variety of sources. It will be a matter of building up, layered on that architecture, these different sources of information in ways that are not so easy to manage as we originally envisaged. One of the reasons is the data protection and the properly enhanced management of data. One of the issues in the EU benchmarking, against which we score poorly, is the pre-population of forms with information — in other words, if one wishes to use an on-line application——

That brings us back to the theory that the few public services available on-line would have been made available on-line irrespective of whether there was a project. Revenue would have developed ROS and local authorities would have developed on-line motor taxation services. Was it far too ambitious to think all of these services could be made available through one website? Would it have been more sensible to create a website with links to services in each Department?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Aspects of the approach to the project enabled us to see these stand-alone projects proceed in a better way. A standardised approach to how individual identity is defined may sound minor but across various branches of the public service we understand identity is required to have access to the inter-agency messaging system, a product of the broker. The individual projects such as the Revenue on-line service have benefitted from the work done in the development of the broker, even though to some extent they operate individually.

I must admit that I still do not have great sense of where we are going with regard to e-government. It seems to be up in the air and that we do not have a strategy. The focus and momentum which we seemed to have in 2000 and 2002 have been lost. That we utterly failed to meet the targets set for 2005 and that since 2005 we have had no strategy or nobody driving this causes concern with regard to the level of interest at Government level. Given the experience of the past six years and all of the expenditure incurred, has the group identified best practice in any other EU member state or any model to emulate?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

We have closely examined elements of good practice. One of the particular things we asked the OECD to do in its review of the Irish public service was to identify approaches to e-government from its close association with all of the member states which would constitute examples we should more closely approximate. I understand it will make recommendations to us on approaches and aspects of a number of systems rather than on any one system because each country has its own culture, legacy and issues. It will make these recommendations based on what it believes will be helpful to us in moving beyond where we have reached in the developments thus far. The action plan which will go to the Government in the coming months will benefit from these recommendations. There will be developments in the role of Accenture because of the migration of responsibility for Reach to the Department of Finance. One of the issues in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is the question of capacity deficits across the system and taking a more proactive approach to these. This will flow from these elements. I am confident a way forward on these issues will be submitted to the Government.

To follow on from my colleague's questions, I have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General. I note he does not criticise public policymakers with regard to the bad delivery of major national projects. Is it a fact that the set-up of e-government is flawed, whereby the Chief Whip, the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Tom Kitt, his predecessor was Deputy Mary Hanafin, now Minister for Education and Science, is responsible for a fundamental ambition of the Government? As I understand it — I was formerly Labour Party spokesperson on communications — the Taoiseach is the e-Minister. He is responsible to Dáil Éireann for e-government and its non-delivery. Should this be mentioned in the report? I often wonder why the Minister with responsibility for communications is not responsible for rolling out the e-government programme, given that there is a major area of e-exclusion which I do not see mentioned in any report. A major chunk of our citizens are nowhere near a computer or website. Should the Comptroller and Auditor General have addressed these issues? Is he allowed to do so?

Mr. John Purcell

As the Deputy will know, I am debarred under law from expressing an opinion in my reports on the merits of policy or of policy objectives and that is only right. The Secretary General, Mr. McCarthy, referred to the Accenture report. One of the failings which may touch on Deputy Broughan's concern is referred to in that report in a sentence. It states that if the Government is to develop a truly thriving programme of customer service, it needs to develop future action plans that are not only rich in vision but also realistic to achieve. By its very nature, one does not associate an action plan with vision. While it is perfectly understandable that a first attempt would be visionary, by the time the second one is made, it should be far more action oriented. This is implicit in the report and seems to be borne out by what Accenture stated in its review of our progress on e-government.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General. I also have a question for the Secretary General. I have the report, Online Availability of Public Services: How is Europe Progressing? by Cap Gemini. The pages on Ireland are depressing. It is headlined that our development of on-line services continues to be stagnated. It refers to ROS and the public services broker system. The league tables on performance show we are dismal, given that we started so early.

Annex 9 of the report which deals with on-line service sophistication shows Ireland in 11th place out of 28. It is surprising that countries such as Slovenia, Estonia and Malta are way ahead of us. The fully available on-line service category shows us in 16th place with a number of newer members of the European Union such as Slovenia, Estonia and Malta all ahead of us and placed towards the top of the table.

My colleague, Deputy Shortall, was heading in the right direction. I examined the pages on the achievements of various countries, which I have not seen since I was my party's spokesperson on communications. It is clear that a number of countries close to the top of the list have ID card systems. Second-placed Estonia has a comprehensive ID system for everybody. It began developing an electronic ID system in 1997. An ID card is mandatory for all Estonian residents and foreigners resident for at least one year. Is it the implication that if we want to have fine connectivity in IT and web terms, we must move towards an ID system? Perhaps I am straying into policy matters but we are not doing well. As the Comptroller and Auditor General stated and this report confirms, we seem to have lost interest or perhaps the politicians responsible have lost interest in this issue. Perhaps a core feature is a central identity system.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I agree. Identity is the critical issue in terms of the differential between high-scoring and low-scoring countries in this benchmark. An effective system of identity management is not the same as having an ID card. An ID card may have benefits in terms of enabling people to carry information with them that is usable for both public and private sector transactions. Our approach in the public services broker concept was not predicated on an ID card but we need to crack the identity management issue to enable a more sophisticated range of on-line transactions to be possible. However, to add a small caveat — in some of the transactions which are flagged under the sophistication of business element of that benchmark, there are issues of concern from an identity protection point of view and even if we could do them, we probably would not want to. That does not seem to be a concern in every jurisdiction.

Up to the end of 2006, or to the end date of the Comptroller and Auditor General's study, what was the total cost of rolling out e-government projects? How does one estimate what the Exchequer saved as a result of the implementation of e-government? What is the cost benefit ratio?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

We have figures for many of the projects which were listed in the action plan and we have some quantification of the benefits which flowed from a number of them. It is difficult to quantify the value of some of the benefits which are highly dispersed efficiencies, in some cases.

Has the Department tried to conduct a cost benefit analysis? Has the Department tried to put a value on it?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I am not sure that we have a comprehensive figure for everything that has been done in the name of e-government because there are incremental developments in inward looking processes which are making the business of Government more efficient, but they do not necessarily interface with the citizen. The transactional element of e-government, while it is in many ways the most important, it is not the only one. In terms of individual projects where significant resources are committed, a cost benefit analysis, in effect, is required by way of the capital guidelines.

Can the Secretary General give me the global figure for the overall cost, across Government, and some estimate of the possible savings?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I am not sure we are in a position to give the Deputy that this morning. However, we could undertake to pass on an estimate to the Deputy.

There is a reference to €420 million as a total cost. Is the figure higher than that now?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

When we count everything, including the elements of e-government that were not named in the action plan, the total would be more than that. Equally, one would be dealing with a wider range of activities and agencies. If the interest is in as comprehensive a picture as we can paint, we will supply that.

I ask the Secretary General to give that to the committee to provide us with overall view. I missed some of the discussion earlier regarding new connections, due to unavoidable Dáil business, but am very interested in the issue. How many of the projects under new connections were abandoned and were there any planned which were never even started?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

As we read it, three were abandoned or discontinued definitively.

Was the health portal one such project?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Yes. The health portal was one. The others were the digital television project, which was related to the health portal, and the e-chip project. As we understand it, five relatively lower-order projects that were suggested to have been abandoned were in fact delivered. However, they would not be highlighted as being strategically significant. We understand that six projects have made some progress but have not reached their full objective, while seven have been deferred for a variety of reasons and two are regarded as not currently possible, for technical reasons.

It is unusual that a Government would set out a list of priority projects including, for example, driving licences, passports, registration of birth, marriage and death, the electoral register and so forth, and then to have to report that they have been abandoned. That has probably not happened in any other major area of Government activity. The Government set out priorities for the nation and then it abandoned them all.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It would remain a policy objective to do better in respect of on-line facilities for both passports and driving licences. However, in the current security environment, no society is operating a wholly on-line procedure in respect of those. There have been developments in both areas, particularly with passports, but they have not reached the full vision expressed in the new connections documents at the time.

Is there anybody in the Government, in the Department of the Taoiseach or in the e-government section auditing what is being done? I represent two county council areas, Dublin City Council and Fingal County Council. Fingal has an e-government planning facility, whereby one can read the plans, more or less, on the web, which is very useful. Dublin City Council, the biggest local authority in the country, does not have such a facility, which is astonishing. Has anybody in Government pointed out to the Dublin city manager that this is not acceptable and told him to do better?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I understand the general approach is to require Departments and agencies, but I do not speak here for local authorities, as an integral part of their business planning, to ensure they are maximising the potential of e-government, for both efficiency and customer service purposes. By and large, that is reflected in, for example, statements of strategy and annual reports. In the local government context, as I understand it, it is very much a matter for each local authority to determine its own strategy in the same way.

If we were serious about e-government, we would be asking the premier local authority, representing approximately one sixth of the citizens, why, if counties all over Ireland can deliver a vital service to citizens on-line, it cannot also do so.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It seems a reasonable question to ask.

May I turn to the Vote for the Department of the Taoiseach?

Before Deputy Broughan moves onto the Vote, I wish to ask about a number of ongoing projects which are costing more than €5 million. We dealt with the public transport smart card project, which is running at €50 million at the moment and the digital mapping project, which, to my surprise, has cost almost €30 million already. I ask the Secretary General to give us an outline of the progress of some of these projects, so we can get an idea of what exactly is happening. The SDM phase II project has cost €25 million to date and the CSO has a survey data information project which is running at over €14 million. These are listed as ongoing, but there are others which have no status assigned to them whatsoever. For example, we have the HSE project at €989,000, the IT and community project at €800,000. We have already referred to some projects which have been abandoned, including the e-chip, national archives and planning applications projects. Specifically on the digital mapping project, at €30 million, what is the exact status and who is monitoring the ongoing expenditure on that project?

Mr. Jim Duffy

Would it be possible for me to answer?

Please.

Mr. Jim Duffy

The digital mapping project is the key system in the Property Registration Authority of Ireland. It is key to that authority moving forward. In terms of the project itself, the authority is in line with its own project plan. Digital mapping forms the basis for a totally different level of capacity in that organisation, in that it now deals with approximately twice the amount of traffic with substantially the same resources and six times the number of professionals use it than was the case three or four years ago. It is rare now for somebody to present in person to the offices of the Property Registration Authority. The Department considers it to be a successful system.

Will Mr. Duffy address some of the other projects for which no status is allocated despite the expenditure of substantial sums of money?

Mr. Jim Duffy

I ask the Chairman to indicate the projects. Unfortunately, I did not take notes.

I refer to projects by the Department of Health and Children and the HSE for which the only information given in appendix B sets out expenditure of €576,000.

Mr. Jim Duffy

To what projects did that pertain?

The project titles are "Department of Health" and "Health Service Executive". I have read newspaper reports on HSE projects by Michael Brennan. Are these the projects to which he referred? Mr. Purcell might assist.

Mr. John Purcell

In regard to appendix B, the three projects under the headings of the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive which have not been progressed or have been abandoned comprise the health portal initiative, to which I referred in my opening remarks, the exploratory use of digital television to deliver appropriate services and the e-chip, which is also set out in the appendix as "Health information tutorial".

I think they are the projects.

Mr. Jim Duffy

At the time the expenditure took place the projects were the responsibility of the former health boards and financed by the Department of Health and Children. Most of the funding came through grants-in-aid to the health boards. The Department of Finance did not have much information about the projects because of the way the health boards were funded through these grants. Similar issues arose in respect of PPARS, which has been widely discussed elsewhere. As soon as we got the HSE in a Vote context, we raised the issue of the health portal but only at that late stage did we discover the focus was on an environment which no longer existed, that is, separate health boards. The decision had been taken at that stage to abandon it. I stress that few of the other projects were or are in that condition.

Were substantial expenditures incurred in respect of the information technology in the community projects run by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and has the Department of Finance been monitoring them?

Mr. Jim Duffy

I know of the project in general but I do not know the details because the monitoring of information technology projects in the community was conducted by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. It seeks a budget from the information society fund and vouches that the expenditure was for the purposes set out in the plan. I do not have detailed information on the matter.

It seems that nobody is in charge of these projects nor are controls in place.

Mr. Jim Duffy

In regard to the very large information and communications technology projects, the Department of Finance imposes a distinct set of controls on other Departments, including seeking sanction and business cases and, if they are large and complex, requiring that they be put before a peer review system which we manage. We have detailed knowledge of the progress of these projects at significantly short intervals of time. However, the information we have on smaller projects is not as detailed because they are typically implemented from a Department's own administrative budget.

Mr. Duffy might call them "smaller projects" but they add up to significant amounts.

Mr. Jim Duffy

I accept that.

I note that on-line air quality data cost €190,000, with a benefit of one inquiry per week. That is an even worse usage figure than my own website, which certainly did not cost €190,000. It would be useful if we could be provided with a full quantification across the board because many of the areas on which the Chairman is rightly focusing are blank. For example, we have saved ourselves a despatch rider in respect of the e-cabinet project.

I accept the figures are difficult to quantify and I have some sympathy for the Departments because one of the problems of the information technology industry is hype. It would be interesting, for example, to learn how much the public service spent on the millennium bug that never was. It is difficult to match the reality of benefits to the cost of machinery and additional staff. However, we need hard figures.

The budget for the Taoiseach's press unit in 2006 was €671,000 and the outturn was €600,000. Will Mr. McCarthy set out the functions of the unit? I understand the Department of the Taoiseach has a press monitoring unit. How many journalists are employed in the unit and what use is made of it? The issue has been raised on many occasions in the Dáil.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The media monitoring unit's functions are as follows: to monitor and record key news programming, primarily radio and television, and to summarise and transmit news headlines as they are broadcast by the principle national broadcast media; to prepare transcripts of broadcast material when requested by Departments; and to act as a broadcast cutting office. The unit does not deal with print media. It was designed to avoid the expense of the commercial agencies which were used by Departments and agencies on an ad hoc basis for the same purpose. That is its function and what it does. No journalists are involved. It is staffed by civil servants recruited in the normal way, usually on short-term assignment from across the system.

The running costs in 2007 were €322,000 and the salary cost for the Department of the Taoiseach was €135,000 because a number of the staff are on loan from other Departments, which pay their salaries while the Department of the Taoiseach pays shift allowance and other expenses because the unit operates beyond the normal working day.

Does it monitor only national radio or also local radio?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It does not routinely monitor local radio and cannot monitor what is not broadcast in the Dublin area.

All the stations are on the Internet.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It tracks the national stations. On request it can focus on a local station.

Is there a respond and attack mode? Would the unit warn a Minister or the Taoiseach that a member of the Opposition is attacking him or her for some policy deficiency? Who would do that?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It is an entirely pacifist unit. It makes the summary material available, typically by text or e-mail as the summary of the broadcast headlines is prepared. What happens after that is up to the recipients.

Does the Department of the Taoiseach maintain any resource on the print media or do the various Departments work with their press offices on that?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Each Department does its own monitoring of the print media. Short of circulating a copy of the entire newspaper it would be difficult to anticipate what people would be interested in so it makes more sense for the individual Departments to do that.

Many of our constituents often ask us for an update on the Taoiseach's make-up bill for media and Dáil appearances. What was that in 2006 and what is it now?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Believe it or not, I do not have the figures, but it is a modest sum. We can confirm the figure to the Deputy this afternoon.

The rest of us have to appear without the benefit of that assistance. What is the situation with the National Centre for Partnership and Performance? It appears in Mr. McCarthy's budget at €1.5 million.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It operates within the framework of the national workplace strategy published two years ago. It is involved in research on identifying good practice in workplace partnership arrangements. A public awareness campaign accounted for a significant proportion of the expenditure in 2007. It implemented a number of projects working with management and trade unions to develop new partnership approaches in different settings, both public and private. It still performs strongly.

In 2007 is it still there at item G?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Yes, it has been incorporated as a statutory entity into the National Economic and Social Development Office so it is part of the furniture. Its work programme has been published and it is perceived as doing very useful work.

What is the commission of investigation? It sounds like the Stasi. The provision was €300,000 and it spend €1.3 million.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

That was the MacEntee inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. It was the balance of expenditure in 2007. It was a commission of investigation undertaken by Mr. Patrick MacEntee. That report has been published and debated in the House.

There was an outturn of €1.3 million instead of €300,000. How did it escalate so much?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The initial term of time proposed for it and agreed with Mr. MacEntee was extended a number of times. The Chairman might recall that he received additional information from the UK authorities at a late stage and the Government considered it prudent to extend the time to enable those to be considered.

One astonishing aspect of the roll-out of e-government, by comparison with many other countries is the fact that the Garda Síochána is not on-line. Policy matters may come into this but gardaí have mobile telephones. Presumably those who have a 3G telephone can access the Web. Our constituents are often amazed they cannot report something to the Garda by e-mail, as they do to us and the public service. There may be a computer in the superintendent's office. If we were serious about e-government would it not be a basic requirement that the Garda Síochána and all its staff be fully on-line?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

It is a reasonable point. I am not aware of the policy on that. It seems to be a reasonable issue on public access. I do not know if it has come to the Department of Finance.

Mr. Jim Duffy

Discussions have taken place with the Garda on why it has not been willing to put up a service. This comes back to identity in the sense that such a service could be a target for abuse. The Garda does not have the infrastructure to police in a coherent enough way——

An agreement was reached with Mr. Denis O'Brien's company, Esat, some time ago. There is a national network of masts at every Garda station in the country but one cannot e-mail the superintendent. It does not seem logical that these most important public servants are not on-line. It seems incredible. For Deputies, the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the HSE, local authorities and the Department of the Taoiseach we take it as standard practice, and yet a large and vital service is not on-line.

Mr. Jim Duffy

I understand the Deputy's point. I was leading to saying as part of the digital radio project, which is at the late stage of contract discussions, police will universally have technology available to them, which is suitably encrypted and will have data handling capability. On the Deputy's other point on e-mail infrastructures within the police system, it already has that infrastructure in place.

There would be a computer the superintendent's office and perhaps that of a particular member, but there is no general facility allowing gardaí to use e-mail. There are difficulties with using a mobile telephone or a land line to report a crime. It seems difficult to understand. Places such as Estonia and Slovenia seem to have their police forces fully on-line.

We might talk to the Garda Commissioner because I understand he is the Accounting Officer for the Garda Síochána. We could invite him when we are dealing with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

I would like to receive a report, in writing, on a number of issues. Eight on-line citizen-focused priority projects were set out in the report, the first of which related to motor tax and we are told that it has been fully implemented. The local authority housing project is described as in progress or partially implemented. Perhaps we could have more detail on it. The planning application and court fine projects are also in progress or partially implemented. Again, we would appreciate being given an idea of what is happening in that regard. The driving licence, passport, birth, marriage and death certificate and electoral register projects, of which we spoke, are all categorised as not progressed or abandoned.

There were 15 on-line business-focused priority projects that we would like to have assessed. The Revenue return filing, statistical return, land registration, patent, mining licence and area aid application projects are described as fully implemented. However, the work permit project is described as in progress or partially implemented. What does this mean? Is it 20%, 30%, 40% or 50%? The same goes for the insurance company annual return, animal disease eradication, forestry, fishing and vehicle ownership projects. Regarding road haulage licences, why was the commercial rates programme abandoned? Perhaps I missed the explanation. What are the rates of progress in the other projects described as simply in progress or partially implemented? We cannot have a real assessment until that is clear.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

We will happily provide a detailed commentary on each of the projects mentioned. We understand the facility for commercial rates is available and being used by some local authorities but not others. It is similar to Deputy Broughan's earlier point on planning applications. The facility has been developed but is not universally applied.

We understand there is an on-line application system for work permits but the issuing of them has not been automated for a variety of reasons. This is something on which we can develop in the commentary.

Regarding commercial rates, the Comptroller and Auditor General states in his report that there is no estimated cost of the project. It was launched in 2004 as a pilot system for the Dublin city area but subsequently abandoned because credit card commission rates were considered prohibitive and users deemed the process inefficient. However, e-payment options are available on most local authority websites. Could the Secretary General clarify the matter?

The cost in respect of work permits was €1 million but the scheme was delayed owing to new employment permit legislation and a launch is expected by the end of this year. Is it correct, therefore, that this project has not been abandoned?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

That is our understanding.

Perhaps the Secretary General will supply the information requested.

A critical objective of the action plan was to ensure national availability of broadband. The Comptroller and Auditor General did not examine this issue but what is the latest assessment of performance?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

Obviously, broadband availability is a critical requirement for on-line activity, both public and private. We understand that the last time it was measured in the third quarter of 2007 the broadband penetration rate was 16.4%. This excludes mobile access which is not included in international benchmarks but is a real benefit. Adding it would bring the penetration rate to 18.4%. Information from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, indicates that in 2007 we had the strongest per capita subscriber growth but that we were starting at a level below that which we might have wished for.

How did we fare in terms of penetration?

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

I do not have the average figure but it was significantly below the OECD average. We are catching up at a faster rate than previously. The penetration rate rose from 4.2% in 2005 to 16.4% in 2007.

I thank the Secretary General.

I asked a question related to what happened in 2000 when the project was first mooted and the absence of a project budget and timeframe. I am not clear on the explanation given and seek elaboration, although this could be my own fault.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The action plan adopted by the Government set out a statement of intent on broad and supporting objectives to be progressed and prioritised, the phrase used in the Government's decision. A plan was not adopted in terms of confirming that the individual elements would be in place by a given date with a supporting budget; they were to be progressed and prioritised by the relevant Departments. This meant putting in place, at that level, the specific business case, timeline and budget elements. For example, the Government stated as a matter of policy that by 2005 all public services should be available on-line, where possible. It was for the implementing bodies, the various Departments and agencies, to turn this objective into specific projects with business plans and budgets and to manage them efficiently. One could say the projects capable of being delivered by 2005 were delivered by that date, although there might be a touch of semantics to such a statement. The scope of the ambition was not realised by 2005 for a variety of reasons that have been discussed.

Is Mr. McCarthy saying that despite there being no budget and no timeframe, the guidelines were not breached? In 2002 the project was scaled back with a budget of €14 million and a delivery date of August 2004 but it finally cost €35 million and was delivered in 2005. Ms Lacey, Secretary General of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, whose Department was responsible for delivery of this programme stated we were not comparing like with like and that additions to the programme resulted in the explosion of costs from €14 million to €35 million. I did not hear an explanation of the details behind the expansion of the programme and how the cost rose from €14 million to €35 million. Perhaps we could have the details now.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Mr. McCarthy has been describing the e-government proposal of 2000. The changes in 2002 related specifically to the work of the Reach agency which was developing the public services broker. Between 2000 and 2002 the plans were being worked out. This was an entirely new scenario. There was no previous experience of what was involved either in the way the project was structured or in what it was trying to achieve. In the initial stage, the public service broker was conceptual. We had to spend some time working through what this concept might mean. There were two iterations. Two prototypes were developed during that time; the second one built on the first and so on. Looking at on-line services, what became very clear was that there was a much bigger issue, not at the front end — what the customer would see — but integrating with the back end, all of the services behind it.

The approach in 2002, after the re-scoping of the project, was to develop the broker in a particular way. Again, however, it was very much an innovative approach. Mr. Duffy went through some of this, but the agreement was that the budget for the project be agreed in stages. Thus, the €14 million was agreed at a particular time——

In 2002.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

In 2002 — and then subsequently, as each aspect of the development was progressed, or as the discussions and negotiations around the project moved forward, further costs were identified, and these were brought back——

Could I stop you there for a second? I ask Mr. Duffy whether his Department was monitoring——

I must point out that there is a votáil on the Finance Bill and there will be a general election if the Government does not win it.

We will take a break. During the break I ask Mr. Duffy to consider my question. Was his Department monitoring the delivery and the increasing costs as they went——

I am sorry to interrupt the Chairman, but we went through that when the Chairman unfortunately had to leave the meeting for a while.

I am sorry to have to point that out. Maybe we could wrap up.

Maybe we could get the details of this in a letter. Could the representatives provide details on the monitoring of the programme between 2002 and 2005?

Could we also have details on the breakdown of the €15 million annual running costs for the project?

What assessment was done on the capacity of the Department of Social and Family Affairs to deliver on the project in terms of manpower, expertise and so on? Was that being monitored by the Department?

At this stage we will break for ten minutes to attend the vote. Otherwise we will be rushing and will not be able to do our business.

Sitting suspended at 1.10 p.m. and resumed at 1.20 p.m.

Before the break there was discussion about getting a written response to some of the issues raised. One which was touched on in a previous question was that of the running costs which are between €14 and €15 million a year. The figure seems very high. Perhaps the committee might get detail about why that figure is being reached annually.

While Mr. Galvin is getting that information I will return to a question I asked previously and to which I did not get an answer. It concerns the memorandum of understanding and the co-operation the delegates receive from other Departments. Deputy Broughan asked about Dublin City Council in this regard which reminded me of the question. If the other agencies do not co-operate with the delegates, obviously there is a problem. What power is there to enforce such co-operation? With all due respect to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, perhaps a return to the Department of Finance would see more notice taken of it.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

The Deputy makes a fair point. Not so much, perhaps, about any lack of willingness to participate but about positioning a resource which should be system-wide and at the centre in such a way that it is flagged on people's agendas and is something to be taken into account in their planning. The conclusion from the review was that this fitted well with the role of the Department of Finance in providing technical advice and support and evaluating particular projects. In other words, it will change the context for co-operation between line agencies and the broker resource in the future.

Mr. Victor Galvin

I will use the figure for last year and obviously I am quite happy to come back with further written elaboration, if required. Distinguishing between the annual and the running costs of the broker, if 2007 is looked at — I appreciate it is not in the report — the annual cost of operating the public services broker last year was €8.8 million. That is the operational cost of keeping the existing level of services in place. It includes payment of €5.6 million for professional managed services and software licensing at around €1 million, with the rest made up of the likes of staff hardware and miscellaneous costs, in that order. That comes to €8.8 million as the operational costs of the broker under the current contract. The additional money consists of the development of a range of new services, and enhancements to the broker infrastructure, work which requires external consultants. That brings last year's total expenditure to in the region of €15 million.

I believe the committee has reached a wrap-up situation.

Mr. Dermot McCarthy

If I may make a small footnote, Deputy Broughan asked about the cost of the Taoiseach's make-up. For the record, in 2007 it was €21,823 and in 2006 it was €25,500.

I thought it would go up with age but apparently not. I ask for Mr. John Purcell's comments on the discussion.

Mr. John Purcell

The report speaks for itself. I did not see it as a knocking exercise on what has been done to date. Much has been achieved but it is important to look at the status of these projects, to try to get a handle on their costs and the benefits achieved and, from a strategic point of view, to attempt to identify the key issues that need to be addressed and are being addressed, to a certain degree, through the reviews of strategy and action plans, the review of Reach and the broker, and so on. It is proving useful in that sense, and as the Secretary General, Mr. McCarthy, has said, the recommendations are being taken on board as part of the whole review process. My view on these matters is that it cost us money to do this job too and I certainly did not want anything at the end of it that was very negative. To that end I was keen on devising recommendations that were capable of being implemented. It is gratifying to hear that this has been the case.

There has been much discussion about Reach and there is some confusion as to whether we are comparing apples and oranges. We do not do this in the report. The €14 million estimate probably could be compared with the cost of €21 million, in the broad sense, of designing and building the broker. For the future, as was mentioned and as is stated in the report, the value proposition for the broker needs be developed to provide a business case for public services to use it. Perhaps the possibility of paying usage fees might be mentioned because what is got for free is often not appreciated. As the new regime will be under the umbrella of the Department of Finance, that Department might well take that on board.

Apart from change to the management structure of Reach, it is important to develop a clear focus of what it is being attempted at this stage. In the very early stages it is understandable that there would be much uncertainty about direction, but at this stage I believe that clear focus is needed.

We did not discuss, nor did I develop to any great extent in the report, the question of financial overruns. It was difficult to get a handle on the costs. In the report, it is stated that there was no programme or project cost at the beginning for 25% of the projects. At the risk of sounding like the bean counter from hell it is necessary to get those kinds of figures together and to track them through. Much of the extended timeframe for the examination was due to the absence of that kind of data and getting what was there into a consistent shape to be analysed. When an average overrun is mentioned, for example 20%, it does not mean very much. If what was wanted or 90% of what was wanted was delivered with only a 20% overrun on information technology projects, we would all be doing handstands at this committee. That would be a good outcome.

We did not get into the issue of broadband. We spoke of the availability and usage of Reach services, ROS and motor tax on-line, as examples. If we are to talk about better service, it is one thing to provide it, but another for the public or business to use it. Obviously, availability of broadband is key to that. Part of the early concept of e-government was that there might be kiosks where people who did not have their own PCs could go to perform these on-line transactions. Clearly that is not possible without the roll-out of broadband. We are coming from a low base which is increasing but that is a separate report. I have no plans to undertake such a report. It is an important element of this, however. Last week while discussing social welfare matters including the prevention of fraud, the incidence of over-payments, prosecutions and so on, the issue of how we know whether we are improving was raised. Deputy Seán Fleming, who is not present, spoke of the need for international comparisons. We have international comparisons here. Although I accept they all have limitations, there are enough of them to give us a feel for how we are placed.

The comparisons show our position has not generally improved in recent years. There is, perhaps, a marginal improvement in one survey and deteriorating in another and so on. In the case of the EU survey, that is partly due to problems with the identity authentication and its particular requirements and I accept that.

One finding of this survey which was unusual was the absence of any real criticism about a lack of money; apparently that was not a problem. There were only a handful of such cases. Normally, the mantra is "We would have done something if we had the money." However, we are looking back over a period where money was not a problem, but we have not advanced as much as we should have. While I recognise the advances made, it seems that in international terms our relative position has not improved despite money not being an object.

Thank you. I thank Ms Bernadette Lacey and her staff; Mr. Ciarán Connolly and his staff; and Mr. Dermot McCarthy for their attendance and co-operation. We have had a fruitful morning.

The witnesses withdrew.

Is it agreed to note Vote 2 and that the value for money report No. 58 on e-government be disposed of? Agreed.

The agenda for the next meeting will include the Comptroller and Auditor General Report 2006, Vote 10 Office of Public Works, chapter 1.3 Agency Services, chapter 4.1 Discrepancies at Two Heritage Sites and the value for money report 56, part C, chapter 19.

The committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 13 March 2008.
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